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Steve Earle sees a friend killed

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McGrath of Harlow 22 Jan 01 - 09:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jan 01 - 09:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jan 01 - 10:11 AM
Metchosin 22 Jan 01 - 10:56 AM
kendall 22 Jan 01 - 11:21 AM
Susan from California 22 Jan 01 - 09:01 PM
ddw 23 Jan 01 - 12:28 AM
Lonesome EJ 23 Jan 01 - 12:42 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 01 - 05:51 AM
Peg 23 Jan 01 - 10:19 AM
Lox 23 Jan 01 - 10:32 AM
kendall 23 Jan 01 - 10:38 AM
kendall 23 Jan 01 - 10:40 AM
Peter T. 23 Jan 01 - 11:21 AM
Midchuck 23 Jan 01 - 11:43 AM
Kim C 23 Jan 01 - 11:59 AM
TamthebamfraeScotland 23 Jan 01 - 01:27 PM
Kim C 23 Jan 01 - 04:44 PM
Penny S. 23 Jan 01 - 05:58 PM
mousethief 23 Jan 01 - 06:13 PM
Dave Wynn 23 Jan 01 - 06:41 PM
mousethief 23 Jan 01 - 06:42 PM
Gervase 23 Jan 01 - 08:50 PM
Hobie 24 Jan 01 - 09:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 01 - 10:26 AM
Kim C 24 Jan 01 - 12:15 PM
kendall 24 Jan 01 - 12:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 01 - 12:56 PM
Kim C 24 Jan 01 - 04:00 PM
Hobie 25 Jan 01 - 12:11 AM
KT 25 Jan 01 - 01:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 01 - 07:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 01 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,bagpuss 25 Jan 01 - 08:21 AM
GUEST 25 Jan 01 - 08:49 AM
kendall 25 Jan 01 - 09:00 AM
Kim C 25 Jan 01 - 10:10 AM
Hobie 25 Jan 01 - 11:46 AM
kendall 25 Jan 01 - 12:00 PM
Dave Wynn 25 Jan 01 - 12:18 PM
Kim C 25 Jan 01 - 12:53 PM
Hobie 25 Jan 01 - 01:13 PM
Kim C 25 Jan 01 - 01:26 PM
kendall 25 Jan 01 - 02:03 PM
Kim C 25 Jan 01 - 03:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 01 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,bagpuss 26 Jan 01 - 07:37 AM
Gervase 26 Jan 01 - 07:59 AM
Pseudolus 26 Jan 01 - 09:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jan 01 - 09:53 AM
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Subject: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 09:19 AM

Only part of that post came out. I hop etghis timwe it'll work better:

Here's a piece they printed in today's Guardian (London). It's an account by Steve Earle of the execution in Texas of a man he'd got to know and see as a friend. I think some Mudcatters who might like to read it might miss it otherwise. The man can't only write great songs:

When he finishes reciting he takes a deep breath and says: "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." The warden, recognising the prearranged signal he and Jon had agreed on, nods toward the unseen executioner and Jon begins to sing.

"Silent night / Holy night . . . "

He gets as far as "mother and child" and suddenly the air explodes from his lungs with a loud barking noise, deep and incongruous, like a child with whooping cough - "HUH!!!" His head pitches forward with such force that his heavy, prison-issue glasses fly off his face, bouncing from his chest and falling to the green tile floor below.

The Guardian took it from a magazine I hadn't heard of before, Tikkun, published in San Francisco, which has some fascinating and moving stuff in it. It's the kind of magazine that would stop me dead in my tracks if I was ever tempted to feel a bit anti-American. (And there are people like that as well.)


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 09:22 AM

For some reason instead of the second post coming tghrough as a correction on the same thread, it came through as a seperate thread. Wonders of the Mudcat. Anyway, ignore the other one.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 10:11 AM

Scary....


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 10:56 AM

the word "incongruous" struck home.....From a conversation recently with a friend (older, attorney, from Arizona, staunch Republican and Bush supporter) and I quote "the death penalty only applies when you're poor, black or Hispanic. Am I in favour of the death penalty? No! No one should expect the State to do something they cannot, in good conscience, do themselves." I believe that a majority of American citizens from Texas or elsewhere could not have pulled that switch.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 11:21 AM

The laws of man forbid one man from taking the life of another. Period. The sixth commandment says nothing about "Legal murder" and thats what the death penalty is. In the old west days and even in later years, if a group of people who were riled up over some crime, a mob would Lynch the prisoner. We call that wrong. However, if another group of people, (judge and jury) do it, it's alright. I see a glaring conradiction.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Susan from California
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 09:01 PM

The Steve Earle song *Billy Austin* is one of the best anti-death penalty songs I have ever heard, along with the Elvis Costello song *Let 'em Dangle*.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: ddw
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 12:28 AM

Kendall, aren't you forgetting a little detail called "due process"?

david


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 12:42 AM

I believe that a majority of American citizens from Texas or elsewhere could not have pulled that switch. Perhaps that duty should be assigned to the victim's loved ones. My objections to the death penalty exist only in the circumstance where there is any remaining question of guilt or innocence. The Timothy McVeighs of this world deserve to pay the ultimate penalty.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 05:51 AM

Where there's any doubt about guilt or innocence, to execute people is clearly cold-bloooded murder. That's easy enough to understand - though there've been enough people executed when there were swerious doubts ta alrm anybody. And it's still hapening to day in the places thta still go in for juduicial execution, like the USA and Saudi Arabia and China and Iraq.

But Jonathan Nobles whiose execution Steve Earle writes movingly about was guilty of some horrible killings over 12 years ago. Here's how Steve ends his piece, and I think what he says deserves to be reflected on by anyone who still defends judicial killings:

I do know that Jonathan Nobles changed profoundly while he was in prison. I know that the lives of people he came in contact with changed as well, including mine. America's criminal justice system isn't known for rehabilitation. I'm not sure that, as a society, we are even interested in that concept anymore. The problem is that most people who go to prison get out one day and walk among us. Given as many people as we lock up, we better learn to rehabilitate someone. I believe Jon might have been able to teach us how. Now we'll never know.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Peg
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:19 AM

Steve Earle is very cool. He is very active in social causes and is one of the best most vocal anti-DP artists out there.

He donated a song to the benefit CD for the West Memphis Three (along with Eddie Vedder, L7, Tom Waits, and many other artists). A few weeks ago, I was writing an article for the Phoenix about the censorship of the CD (after letters complaining the CD supported "child-killers" --whom many believe are innocent--and violated the Son of Sam law--it doesn't--were sent to various stores) at some major chains like Circuit City, Walmart, etc. and Mr. Earle was in town playing a benefit at Johnny D's for landmine victims with Emmylou Harris, Bruce Cockburn and others. The event was completely sold out and no press passes were allowed. So I stood on the freezing sidewalk for a couple hours, hoping to get a little quote from Steve Earle. I had no hope of doing so but when he overheard me talking about the censorship of the CD to two roadie guys outwside he slid open the window of the tourbus a little wider and asked me about it...I got some quotes and he encouraged me to call his agent so he could do a longer interview when he was off tour. Nice guy--I mean, he didn't have to talk to me while he was just chillin' before a performance....

thanks for those links and articles.

peg


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:32 AM

CHECK THIS OUT!!!!!

A film called "Dancer in the dark" starring Bjork of sugarcubes fame.

Really - check it out.

It is a film of immense beauty, and is 100% relevant to this topic.

lox


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:38 AM

Due process is nothing but a legal phrase. My point is, no one ever has the moral right to take anothers life. Did you ever see a grown up deal with a child who bites? That old advice, "Bite him back" is the same thing. Does it make sense to condemn a certain behavior, and then commit the same act? Thats not justice, it's revenge. Most criminals have lived a sad life, and to execute them is to set them free. I say, throw them into the tank and leave them there.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:40 AM

Sorry, I dont know what happened there..I didnt hit send more that once. Oh, I hit stop and was trying to add a further comment.
Duplicates deleted. --JoeClone


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 11:21 AM

Having a little trouble with electricity there, kendall? yours, Peter T>


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Midchuck
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 11:43 AM

I can't really speak on behalf of capital punishment. In practice, it would only be acceptable if prosecutors, judges and juries never made a mistake. And Kendall's point is well taken - if the most basic function of the state is protection of the lives of its citizens, then the state is creating a contradiction by killing one of them itself, no matter what he did. (I'll ignore the implications of that statement in the abortion controversy for now.)

But still....

Assuming we're not dealing with an erroneous conviction in this particular case, how can we have this outpouring of compassion for the perpetrator, and simply forget the victim. The perpetrator (presumeably) killed someone. At least there's an argument in favor of balance. The victim (presumeably) did nothing wrong, and got killed anyway. But all the compassion is for the killer. I don't get it.

Or is the idea that the victim must have done something wrong, or the killer wouldn't have killed him?

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Kim C
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 11:59 AM

Ted Bundy wasn't poor, black, or Hispanic.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 01:27 PM

No one in the world has the right to take another human being's life.

It goes against God's word. You might say that I'm talking rubbish and maybe I am, or else what you might say is "Well, what about the people who have murdered inoccent human beings. They don't have the right either.

Howver when God says that thou shalt not murder, then that should go for the judical system as well.

Where they legally murder that person.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Kim C
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 04:44 PM

Here's where I stand. If we're going to have a death penalty, then let's have it and stop beating about the bush. If we're not going to have it, then somebody please come up with a better alternative. There has to be some drastic punishment that is reserved for the most drastic of crimes. Sometimes life in prison without parole just doesn't seem right for a child murderer or a serial killer, not when they get free cable, free medical care, free college, free access to a law library... But I don't know what the answer is and I'll freely admit it.

There is a case pending in Tennessee right now, regarding a man on death row for shooting a policeman in Memphis some years ago. There is new evidence which could cause a reasonable doubt as to his guilt, and in that case, I am all for reviewing said evidence and having a new trial if necessary. Refusing to review the evidence would be a miscarriage of justice.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 05:58 PM

They may get free cable, free medical care, free college, free access to a law libray, but they don't get free. They get locked up with people they don't choose, by people they don't choose, where they can be abused physically and mentally by other inmates or by staff, and they can't get out of it. They get to wear clothes they don't choose, eat food they don't choose, and do work they don't choose. They get to live by a timetable they don't choose. This is too good? You could do it? I couldn't.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 06:13 PM

There are two words "kill" and "murder" because the concepts are different. They are not synonyms. The state executing a prisoner is not murder. You can pretend it is, but then when you make words stand for something they don't really stand for, like Humpty Dumpty, be sure to pay them extra.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 06:41 PM

You all live in a democracy.....vote out the ones you don't want and vote in the ones you do. In The UK in 1966 our parliament stopped capital punishment. I don't know if that has increased or reduced capital crimes but I do know of cases of people taking a life and living to enjoy the remains of theirs..."hey look I've changed..I'm a good boy/girl now" is not very comforting to the families of the victim.

There are some languishing in goals in the U.K. that I would have no compunction about tugging the rope or flipping the switch. We just had a Dr of Medicine who has killed 30 or so and the figure may be in the hundreds....You think we can rehabilitate him...Do we want too...

Bite em back I say...(if they truly deserve it.)

Spot.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 06:42 PM

I used to languish in goals until I decided to just go with the flow. Now I'm much happier.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 08:50 PM

Thank you for the link to give this a wider circulation, Kevin.
I read the piece in yesterday's Guardian, and what struck me as so powerful was the fact that it wasn't a polemic or a rant - just a disquisition on a "due process" that happened to involve a living, sentient human being. Yes, one that had committed crimes that no reasonable person could condone, but that is beside the point.
Thus, Spot, though you may be prepared the pull the handle/press the button etc, aren't you just a mite ashamed of your eagerness to do so? I can understand your feeling - I have been there myself when confronted with a man who had cynically murdered three children for sexual gratification - but I m very glad I did not have the opportunity to act on my own rage.
For surely it is a measure of a civilised society when it can rise above the knee-jerk and treat all its members, even the flawed, warped and downright shitty ones, with dispassionate humanity. The legal system should have no time for passion or emotion.
That's why we have a legal system. If the "due process" of the law were left to us, yes of course we'd lynch, maim and generally batter those whohurt us. But it is precisely because of that propensity that we who live in what we like to call civilised societies abrogate the responsibility for punishment to the state. If the state descends to the atavistic level of the individual, then it has no right to call itself civilised.
And that's not even getting onto the subject of miscarriages of justice. Guildford, Birmingham - do I have to go on...?


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Hobie
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:51 AM

To be quite honest I don't care if capitol punishdment is a deterent. It is a punishment, you have violated the world in such a way that you should never again be a part of it. and some on mentioned, Tho shall not kill, separation of church and state. Let em hang.

Hobie


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:26 AM

How can we have this outpouring of compassion for the perpetrator, and simply forget the victim?Midchuck - I think if you click on the link and read the piece by Steve Earle, you'll see that the victims are not brushed aside.

And Hobie, for me, and I think most people who are against judicial killings, the fundamental reason is that these killings "violate the world". To take a human being, to strap them onto a cross, and pump poison into their veins, in cold blood and years after they have done something which may be as horrible in its way as that - it is hard to bear thinking about it.

I think that it degrades and corrupts a society to have that going on. I grew up in a country where that was what happened. I can remember the odd kind of unhealthy excitement in school on execution days - though of course we never had as many of these as you do in America, maybe thaty kind of things wears off if you do it often enough.

And now I live in the same country, and that can no longer happen, and never will again, in a continent wherer that no longer happens and never will again.

There are a lot of things wrong with England and a lot of things wrong in Europe but that's one thing that is right, and thank God for it.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 12:15 PM

We don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic.

No, Penny, they don't get free... but there are plenty of other people in bondage who have committed no crimes. I'm talking about the homeless, the poor and destitute. The free services available for them are dwindling by the minute. Is it really fair that a child murderer should have food, shelter, clothing, a gym, a doctor, when there are children in the USA, a wealthy country, who have no shelter and no food? They're not really free either. Not everyone is homeless by choice, but children don't have a choice, period.

Some of these homeless people are veterans who served our country and please excuse me if I think they deserve to be treated better than prisoners. But even the Veterans Administration doesn't have enough funds to take care of everyone. My father, a decorated Korean War veteran, was denied financial assistance for his medications over a sum of $50. He made $50 too much. Fifty lousy dollars, and MAYBE he took home $800 a month. Maybe. He died last August. Isn't it ironic to think that if he had murdered someone and gone to prison he would have got all the medical care he needed.

I'm just saying, if we are going to be a society that believes All Life is Precious, then let's stop picking and choosing and start putting our money where the mouth is. If everyone gave only $5 to a cause they cherished it would go a long way.

KFC


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 12:41 PM

To mousethief..I dont care what you call it..taking a human life is wrong. McGrath..no one is forgetting the victim, thats not the point of all this. Of course the perpetrator should be punished for what he did, but, if the state lowers itself to the same level, what is the difference? I still say, if some creep committed a gross crime against one of mine, I would reather have him locked away for life instead of being freed by killing him.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 12:56 PM

Is it really fair that a child murderer should have food, shelter, clothing, a gym, a doctor, when there are children in the USA, a wealthy country, who have no shelter and no food?

The real scandal is clearer to see if you trim that sentence: Is it really fair that ... there are children in the USA, a wealthy country, who have no shelter and no food?

Maybe in a way the judicial killings are one of the things that divert people's attentions from the sickness that they need to address. Maybe that's what they are really for.

Here's link to a site about Steve Earle


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 04:00 PM

There shouldn't be children ANYWHERE that have no food or shelter.

On another note... what about self-defense? I would have no qualm about pulling the trigger on an armed intruder in my home. If that makes me wrong, then so be it, I Am Wrong.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Hobie
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 12:11 AM

Go Kim!!!!!!

And McGrath, strapping them to a cross?????? Are you now putting murderers and rapist on par with christ?

Hobie


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: KT
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:30 AM

Helen Prejean, author of "Dead Man Walking," offers tremendous insight into this issue. If ever presented the opportunity to hear her speak, don't miss it. She is remarkable. In the meantime, look her up on the web. There are several sites......


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:17 AM

I agree with the self-defence point. If someone is coming at you with intent to take something of yours it is instinctive to try to prevent them. Forget the 'reasonable force' clause in British law - you do not have time to think in this situation - you just act.

So we have now introduced another factor into the arguement - What in the States I believe is called 'Justifiable Homicide'. Is this correct, btw, or is that just in the movies?

I am sure that the statistics will show that a very high proportion of murders are without pre-conception. That they happen in the heat of the moment, a 'crime of passion'.

Forget the Hindleys and Bundys, Shipmans and Mansons for a moment. If something is done 'in the heat of the moment' no penalty will prevent it from happening. Neither should we use the death penalty for what boils down to, effectively, loosing your temper. I have seen plenty of people right here in this cafe guilty of that crime.

OK - so if we now accept that the death penalty is neither deterent or fitting punishment for crimes of passion or justifiable homicide we can turn our attentions to the previously mentioned mass-murderers, psyco's and otherwise deranged individuals.

We now have two types of murder and therefore two types of murderer. If the death penalty is to be applied to one and not the other how do we decide which?

Is the gunman who massacred the children in a schoolyard an evil demon or someone genuinely ill enough to believe they were right? Is the wife who killed her abusive husband in the heat of the moment a victim herself or a devious, lying cold-blooded killer?

No-one can know for sure. No judge. No psychiatrist. No twelve good men and true. There is, therefore, always an element of doubt.

And where there is an element of doubt we cannot use the death penalty.

Only my views

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:30 AM

I was just describing what happens, hobie. Have you ever seen a picture of a poisoning execution? The person who is being killed is lying down fastened to a support, with both arms stretched out and srapped down to arms rests.

I'm sure you know that crucifixion wasn't a special way of execution just invented for Jesus. It was the standard way that the Romans used to execute people they wanted to make an example of, and other cultures have used variations on the technique. The American variation is just the most recent.

As I indicated the central thing about judicial killing isn't so much that it is inhumane, but that it degrades everyone associated with it. I imagine that is why the American Constitution has that bit about "cruel and ususual punishments".

Increasingly, apart from the USA, judicial killing is becoming restricted to a relative handful of countries with extreme repressive governments. I hope that will before too long lead the USA Supreme Court to accept that this is in fact a "cruel and unusual punishment", and therefore outlawed under the Constitution.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: GUEST,bagpuss
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 08:21 AM

I read the article too.

I am against the death penalty for several reasons. The most obvious is that there is always a chance of getting it wrong and killing an innocent person. But even if the person is 100% guilty I am against it. To me, there are 3 ways we can justify a punishment:

1: Protection for the citizens of the country that might otherwise be affected by reoffending. The death penalty cannot be justified on these grounds, as they could be sentenced to life with no chance of parole.

2: Rehabilitation. Obviously killing someone doesn't make them into a better person...

3: Deterrence. If it were shown that the death penalty was more of a deterrent than life without parole, there could be some justification for it, as it may save other lives by reducing the homicide rate. There is no evidence for this, and lots of evidence to show the opposite is true. I read recently that on the days following an execution, the murder rate goes up for that state.

So, all that it seems is left to justify it is revenge and bloodlust. Not a good enough reason to kill someone in my book.

Also, it isn't applied consistently. Ethnic minorities are far more likely to be sentenced to death than whites - even when you factor in the seriousness of the crime etc.

By the way, the death penalty is still on the statute books in Britain. But only for treason I think. And it will never happen.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 08:49 AM

It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless the kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. -- Voltaire, War

Laughing on the way to your execution is not generally understood by less-advanced life forms, and they call you crazy. -- Richard Bach, Illusions


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 09:00 AM

What is the most important thing in a healthy persons life? Freedom. No amount of tv, weight lifting stuff, food clothing or anything else can replace the lost liberty of a killer. Hungry children are a disgrace on humanity, but, they are also another problemn not even related to the death penalty. If I were facing life without parole, or, a lethal injection, you can bet I would choose to be set free. I would go bananas if my liberty was taken away.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 10:10 AM

Kendall, that's because you and I and everybody here have some estimation of the value of life and liberty. I'm not sure that habitual criminals do. They don't value their own life and liberty so some of them don't care when it's taken away. Some of them have it a lot better in prison than they ever did on the outside.

Now... that being said... I do believe people can change. I believe there are incarcerated people who know they made stupid mistakes and they want to do better. In that regard I am all for getting prisoners some kind of education or vocational training so they will have a valuable skill when they get out. I believe that most people can be rehabilitated and be good contributing members to society.

But not everybody can. Some people are just plain bad and can't be fixed. And I'm not talking about people who are sick, I'm talking about people who are evil. Those are two different things in my mind. What do we do about them?

And what about those who want to be executed? Timothy McVeigh wants to be executed. Several years ago there was a man in Washington state, a serial child rapist/murderer who wanted to be executed. He had been through every single rehabilitation door there was, to no avail. He said, the only way you can stop me is to kill me so go ahead and hang me. He specifically requested hanging because he had strangled his victims. He got his wish.

On another note... the man here in Tennessee who is scheduled to die next week has a clemency hearing either today or tomorrow. The victim's family does not want to see him executed and I think their wishes should be granted.

KFC


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Hobie
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:46 AM

no McGrath i haven't, have you ever seen the pictures of their victims, or spent hours, which add up to days, which add up to weeks, counseling victims of abuse, sexual or phsical. I have. but at this point I'm done arguing. I do want to bring this up though. Somewhere in here someone mentioned that human error needs to be taken into account when arguing the the death penalty. Because there is some doubt that, in regardless of the facts, that someone is guilty. It's a valid point, but what about rehabilitation. This is also based on HUMAN perception. All you need is a clever predator or a gullible offical, and you have a rapist, child molester or murderer out on the street lookin for another victim. In my opinion, Rapists and molesters never reform.

Hobie


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 12:00 PM

It's not just your opinion, it is a fact that pedophiles can not be rehabilitated. Those who choose death prove my point.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 12:18 PM

Forgive my ignorance but does a life sentence mean life in the USA?. In the UK it can mean anything from life (Hindley / Brady) to 8 years for a crime of passion.

If a life sentence meant life (and definitly no parole) then I would be happy to go along with that , but it doesen't in the UK. It means the person is frequently freed and could possibly repeat the offence. Just how would the second victim's family feel if the killer turned out to be a repeat offender. It doesn't bear thinking about and I for one would not be happy with the bleeding heart moralist who suggested we rehabilitated him / her in the first place.

Make the sentence suit the crime. Life (for ever in prison) or death (if they prefer it).

It's an unhappy subject and I don't think I will post any more to it. I hope my comments have not upset anyone.

Spot.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 12:53 PM

Well, there's Life, then there's Life Without Parole. With Life there's usually a minimum incarceration period, say 25 years, then a parole hearing, and people can always be denied (like Charlie Manson). With Life Without Parole I believe you don't get a hearing at all. Now I could be way off here so somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Hobie
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:13 PM

It depends on the state, here in Iowa life is just that, no possibility of parole. But it differs from state to state.

Hobie


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:26 PM

Course I guess you can always get a Presidential pardon...


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:03 PM

Not for murder


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:40 PM

Hmmm. I didn't know that.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 06:43 PM

The suggestion seems to be that being killed is a lesser punishment than being kept in prison, so it's more merciful to kill people. But at the same time people who say don't kill them are being soft on the murderers?

If there's a logic there, it's not one I can understand.

The point I was making about the execution method, hobie, was that it is in fact technically a form of crucifixion. I don't mean that it is worse than what some of those people killed that way did to their victims. But I don't think it is right to set your standards by that measure.

And once again, the damage that judicial killings do to Americans, especially to American children, is something that can only be guessed at. Even if it were possible to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the effect is to make people less likely to murder each other, there would still be that damage to take into account.

But in fact what evidence there is seems to suggest that in countries where judicial killings take place, the likelihood of being murdered by your fellow citizens is greater, not less.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: GUEST,bagpuss
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 07:37 AM

"it is a fact that pedophiles can not be rehabilitated"

Kendall - are you sure its a fact? Have you any evidence to back that statement up? If you dont have any, then its just an opinion. If you do, I can provide you with plenty of evidence that it is not true.

And perhaps people out there don't know, but being a paedophile is not a crime. Abusing a child is a crime, but having the inclination to do so is not. There are non abusing paedophiles out there - many not getting any help with their problem because if they mention it they will automatically be labelled as "sick".

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Gervase
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 07:59 AM

Bagpuss,
There's a psychotherapist called Ray Wire, who runs the Gracewell clinic in the UK, who has had remarkable success with abusive paedophiles and supposedly "incurable" sex offenders of many types. Very highly regarded by the police and by fellow psycho-medico types.


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: Pseudolus
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 09:19 AM

I am not a fanatic about defending the death penalty but I will say this. If we were to take all of the money spent housing, feeding, educating, etc. all of the people on death row (some who stay there for years), and put it all together, we could feed a lot of hungry kids.....just a thought.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Steve Earle sees a friend killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 09:53 AM

the people on death row (some who stay there for years)

That of course would include the ones who after spending years on death row turbn out to be innocernt all along...

There's plenty of money around to feed all the hungry children in the world, which is wasted and thrown away by people who have far more than any normal human being needs.


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