Analysis of Raglan Road

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM

It's very true, Peter T. I was avoiding that observation because I was talking too much as an interloper on the list. The Queen of Hearts line was like a large grain of sand I had to choke down to enjoy the rest of an otherwise fine meal. I was so pleased when someone put some possible meaning into it, up above, allowing it to go down more easily. I frequently wondered how a singer should approach that line: Should they belt it out with triumphant grandiosity, and then, should the audience respond with thunderous applause at the cartoon queen's industry?

For what it's worth, I had done my own phylophising (God, I love that word--someone should send it in to Miriam-Webster), to make it palatable: I thought that perhaps the line referenced the ongoing process of successful romantic liasons occurring all around the artist, while he was spinning his wheels, or perhaps that the assembly line was churning out all sorts of more appropriate choices for him, of which he failed to avail himself.

I admitted at the outset that I have no education in poetry, and so I have wondered what the cognoscenti say about the technique of which you complain. It can be an annoyance to be sure. Believe it or not, while I have found the analyzing and phylophising of this particular song rewarding in that I can now "own" the song in my mind (too bad I can't sing!), it's a process to which I usually won't dedicate much energy. I'm getting some extra benefits here by stealing some (maybe too many)insights into van morrison's lyrics (take me back to when I lived in Grace; I will never grow so old again); and he loves the technique.

Dan (Who once loved a precious dark haired girl from Monaghan, though I've never been there.)

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:50 AM

Since this seems to be a discussion thread, let me put in my counter-appraisal, that the weakest line in the song seems to be "The Queen of Hearts still making tarts", and it is interesting that in the second poem, the most wishy washy Dylan Thomasy derived line "Lot's wife would not be salt if she had been incurious, etc." is subject to the same criticism: taking a well known image and doing the most obvious rephrasing. "Does the name Dick Whittington ring any bells?" Poetry should be made of sterner stuff....Nice song, can't complain too much. I go for the prostitutes-down-in-the-ravine-shagging-off-whoever-shows- up-condoms-littered-around-as-love's-pledge interpretation myself....

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 05:54 AM

For a tour of the Patrick Kavanagh country and a summary of his work, http://swift.kerna.com Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: Lyr Add: HOW COULD REAVY DIE! (Father Michael)
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 04:26 AM

And those who are charmed by Kavanagh's might also wish to purchase a collection of Ed Reavey's tunes. Reavey was born in Cavan (I think ... don't hold me to it ... it was that general direction anyhow) and his tunes are very evocative of the area.

Here's a link to just one page which gives further details about buying his tunes in musical notation and recorded format.

Click here

As a taster here is Father Michael's eulogy ...

HOW COULD REAVY DIE!
By Father Michael

The plumber of the hornpipes is dead.
The old diviner with the hazel bow,
That found the Shannon's source
And made its magic waters flow across the world.
"NO" she said "he's not dead,
How could Reavy die!"
And who are you to say!
"I am the Wind: The Wind
That drove the clouds in herds
Above the Cavan hills and Drexel too
And whispered to the oats in Barnagrove.
I am the breeze that kissed O'Carolan's face
With moisture on my lips
'Til notes danced within his mind
Like flames behind a blind.
I am the breath in Reavy's body
I used to whistle in his mouth
Merely oxygen upon arrival
But virgin music coming out.
He would hold me in the evenings
And we'd play within his soul
He tamed me with his reverence
But I always had to go . . .
So I bore him sounds of sweetness
Some were sad and some were glad
And he composed half a thousand tunes
About the happy time we had."
Hush! I whispered. Did you see his fiddle
On the altar - silent as a stone
And his body on the grave in Drexel Hill?
Clamped on the hole in a final salute
Like an old finger frozen on a flute.
Did you see the people in a circle
Standing sadly in the snow,
When the pipes refused to play in the cold?
"I was there" she said
I am the Breath of the earth.
Every mouth is a wisp of my prayer
Breathing blessings of incense on the bites of the air
Because life has the edge on the ice.
Listen my friend, to the lad with the whistle
With his finger tips timid and cold.
See the life that he brings to the old man's tune
And the leaks that he brings to the eyes.
See Reavy arise from the holes in the tin . .
And announce on his grave "I'm alive!"

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 02:44 AM

Guest, It reads beautiful whatever way you put it. The district Patrick Kavanagh came from is a lovely part of Monaghan, I have been to it on many occasions, the Poet is always allowed licence. And you will find The Green Fool an excellent read, it has all of life in its pages. Don`t forget Tarry Flynn, regarded by many as a better book. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: Lyr Add: SHANCODUFF (Kavanagh)
From: GUEST, phylophisationer
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM

Ouch. My copy of The Green Fool is still on order (and I'm beginning to fear it may be too depressing to read.) In the meantime, I went looking for Kavanagh poems to read.

For those of you (us) who knew On Raglan Road as an isolated object, separated from the man or the environment, and pondered the writer's possible conceits, read this and weep:

SHANCODUFF

My black hills have never seen the sun rising,
Eternally they look north towards Armagh.
Lot's wife would not be salt if she had been
Incurious as my black hills that are happy
When dawn whitens Glassdrummond chapel.

My hills hoard the bright shillings of March
While the sun searches in every pocket.
They are my Alps and I have climbed the Matterhorn
With a sheaf of hay for three perishing calves

In the field under the Big Forth of Rocksavage.
The sleety winds fondle the rushy beards of Shancoduff
While the cattle-drovers sheltering in the Featherna Bush
Look up and say: "Who owns them hungry hills
That the water-hen and snipe must have forsaken?
A poet? Then by heavens he must be poor."
I hear and is my heart not badly shaken?

----------------------------------------------

"O the rich beauty of the weeds in the ditches. . . . "
-P. Kavanagh "Tarry Flynn"

Line Breaks
added.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: GUEST,Jenny
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 01:03 PM

A couple days late - Bartholomew you are a genius.

Everyone has offered up so much in this thread I couldn't help but comment on how enlightening it has been.

Anyone ever read "The Riders" (Winton)? His take on Raglan Road seems to match Bartholomew's.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 10:05 PM

we sang it by committee at Camp Alexandra in B.C. this summer..Jill King and Sharon from San Francisco and me...it was a great rendition if I say so myself...Sharon has a pretty, high voice, and Jill King is in a league all of her own...a huge, deep voice..She is from New Zealand...mg

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Gloredhel
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 07:02 PM

This is definitely some of the best verse ever set to music. Some songs have pretty lyrics which are terrible as poetry, but this is genuine genius and derserves the kind of analysis it's being given here. "The Queen of Hearts still making tarts" has always been one of my favorite lines from any song, mostly because it has meanings on so many levels. It does have that innocent, childlike connotation from the nursery rhyme, and also possibly the idea of prostitution, her being the "queen of his heart", and if the bakery girl story is true, there's another meaning. I beg you to remember, though, that poets often don't recognize the meaning of everything they say. A friend of mine is a decent poet, and sometimes I've known meanings of his phrases to be suggested to him which he didn't even notice until they were pointed out.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 07:57 AM

Thomas, I think Kavanagh was saying "Dam this for a lark, i`d be better off at home in my Monaghan Farm, making hay". And as for the "Queen of Hearts making tarts" that could well have been his mother. He after all was a down to earth small Farmer. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 08:38 PM

And as Andy Stewart says about one of his sad love songs from the male perspective "her version is a bit more ecstatic"!

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 07:48 PM

Derrymacash... I think you hit it right on. The angel is the embodiment of love in the lovers. The clay is the human earthly element that both must contend with, eventually... even when we wish it wouldn't apply.

I see his 'not making hay' as one of the crucial lines. Essentially, it means to me that he spent all his energy TRYING TO WOO, instead of being industrious and laying the foundations for a prosperous family life... Loving too much... AND NOT MAKING MONEY.

She can't face him, because she sees his attraction to her as a death wish in himself, a force so strong that he could simply give up his responsibilities for... and she probably didn't get into starvation and drinking the way he did...

I love this song! ttr

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 06:18 PM

Since you asked (or even if you didn't) here is my take on this beautiful bit of poesy.


The writer is looking back (all of the verses, except the last, are in the past tense) on a failed relationship, and a failed life, wondering about the connection between the two. He examines the phases of the relationship and decides (in the last verse) that he has paid some kind of ultimate price for "loving not too wisely, but too well".

In verse one, he returns to the start: to Raglan Road on an autumn day. He remembers that he liked her hair. As he recalls, he "saw the danger" in pursuing her but decided to take the chance and give in to the possibility of love (the enchanted way). He maintains that he knew from the start (the dawning of the day) that this love had consequences and decided to pay no more attention to them than you would to the falling of a leaf in autumn.

He remembers that for the first few months they flirted with real love, and although they came close enough to see how beautiful it would be, they never quite fell; they merely "tripped lightly along the ledge. Her life went on unchanged (the job of "The Queen of (his) Hearts", after all, was tart making), while his love deepened. His life stopped in it's tracks, along with his work. He sees this imbalance in commitment as leading to the failure in this relationship and as the source of his sorrow and dissapointment in life.

In v.3 he remembers that he did his best to make it work. He offered her all the things that mattered most to him - his mind, his art, his music, his poetry - and got in return little more than her name and hairdo (it's what attracted him to begin with). She was as insubstantial as "clouds over fields of May".

Now, in his minds eye (where old ghosts meet), he sees her dumping him and taking off as fast as she could. He begins to think that the soulmate that he had imagined was, in reality, too shallow for him (a creature made of clay). And, as in the old stories of Gods and angels who pay with their immortality the price for loving a mere mortal, he has paid the price for his love. We are left to imagine what that price is.

Personally, I see this song as a bittersweet warning to all artists who face the choice between pursuing their art and pursuing a relationship; but that's just me. Still, if we had kept the band together, and if not for the kids. . .

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Paddy Plastique
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 02:45 PM

Anyone interested in Kavanagh autobiography might try the most succinct expression of it:
'If Ever You Go To Dublin Town'. He sings it himself on a tape available from Claddagh (I think)
I picture the song in the same area of Dublin mentioned by Frank (McGrath) above.
Puts some flesh on the bones of the 'grumpy old git'
Bear in mind, too, that he disowned 'The Green Fool' later in his life
Anyone any comments on the relation to or possible resonance with the song in Irish?
I find the version I tracked down banal by comparison with Kavanagh - a lad gets brushed off by a milkmaid in the dawn.
Apart from the beauty of the title's imagery it has nothing that prefigures Kavanagh's take or even lives up to the melody

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: black walnut
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:30 PM

I meant, D. (Don't know where the M. came from....)

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: black walnut
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:29 PM

Worth much more than a tuppence, M.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 08:39 AM

A bit late in the day, here's my tuppence worth.

I can only echo ard mhacha's comments regarding the Green Fool and Tarry Flynn. Anybody who's ever sang Raglan Road and felt moved by it in any way ought to check out his two prose works. Along with The Poor Mouth and The Third Policeman by Flann O'Brien, they stand head and shoulders above any other works of prose that were being published in Ireland at the time, the only contemporaries being vaguely in the same league as them being Joyce, Beckett, O'Casey and Behan.

Sinead O'Connor sings a great version of Raglan Road. But my mate Dermot Maguire – piper, singer and guitarist, who has a summer-long residency in The Annexe Inn in Keel, Achill Island, Co. Mayo only a few days left, hurry, hurrry, hurry – renders the song better than anyone I've ever heard. (For that man's voice I would slaughter the innocents!)

I can see how people interpret the last verse as implying that Kavanagh has inflated, pompous opinions of himself. But this, to me, is a flawed reading (and out of kilter with the rest of the poem in any event). Anyone reading Tarry Flynn or The Green Fool will be struck by just how hard Kavanagh was on himself! Calling your autobiography "The Green Fool" is not the actions of a bombast …

I've always read the lines as pointing to the fact that when we're in love we feel exhilarated, uplifted, immortal. But we love only mortals like ourselves – as capable as we are of ballsing up. And when he/she/I/we cause(s) the relationship (or potential or imaginary relationship as may have been the case in this poem) to go wrong, we suddenly lose that heightened sense and become "clay" again.

As I say, just my tuppence worth.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: GUEST,Rag
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 07:58 AM

Has anyone seen Peter Kavanagh's (Paddy's brother) comments on this poem. He thinks it was written when he was dumped by his girlfriend. It was first published in the Irish Times, I think, and according to Peter Kavanagh, had no great political meaning at all.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 11:32 AM

Re: angels in the song. It is interesting that one of the poetic shifts in the 19-20 century has been from envying angels their heavenly role towards pitying them that they do not have earthly experience. The film Wings of Desire works on this theme: the importance of losing your wings, the positiveness of being a fallen angel, etc. This is part of the long trend towards turning one's back on "eternal heaven" and the positive reassessment of ordinary life that characterizes modernity. The song is in this territory: clay, losing wings, etc. It is not clear that losing wings a good thing or a bad.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 11:00 AM

In my opinion.

To sing or interpret a song or piece of poetry. You do have to feel and impart the emotions of your interpretation. But you do not have to know what the author intended. Having said that, I have truly enjoyed this thread and I have learned much.

Thanks to everyone.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: AliUK
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 02:14 AM

With songs such as Raglan Road I think it's justified to try and tease out the metaphors within the narrative to better understand the author's intentions. Then to find some kind of baseline connection with our own emotions to bring out the feeling within a song. Though Kavanagh was embittered he found his writing to be an outlet for the beauty that was hidden beneath his defensive exterior. With more traditional material where it is difficult to find an author's intentions ( sometimes of various authors down the years) we have to look inwards and interpret the songs on a purely personal level.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: GUEST,phylophisationer
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 01:47 AM

Whoa, I thought I was posting an item to a basically dead web page to be visted on rare occassion by internet stragglers like myself. I'll go read up on Mudcat eitquette ~after~ briefly mentioning two pertinent quotes I stumbled upon.

"A poem should not mean but be." Archie Macleish 1926

And if Mr. K. is having a chuckle, here's a tweak to raise the Irish in him:

"He who loves the more, is inferior and must suffer. . . ." Thomas Mann 1903

Silly of me to not have mentioned Luke Kelly. In my mind I regarded him as the baseline from which to compare the others.

Thanks again, though. What to many of you is "fairly stock phrasing from the tradition" can be lost upon others, causing unnecessary misunderstanding. I'm sure I enjoy the song even more now. (It can now even bring a tear to my cold blue eye.)

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 01:05 AM

Spot on Ard, Kavanagh's 'Tarry Flynn' gives a very good insight into his own character. Not only did he fall for the Dublin girl but he abandoned his normal caution and timidity with women knowing he would inevitably make a fool of himself but unable to resist her earthy charm. Luke Kelly's version must be the definitive one if only because of Kelly's gut-wrenching style.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 10:02 AM

I've always wanted to believe that "The Enchanted Way" was a reference to the street that runs along Grand Canal between Leeson and Baggot St. bridges, where Kavanaugh's statute is found...anyone who has spent time there knows just how enchanted it is, especially in the fall. Many lovers young and old stroll along the Canal there.

There are definite resonances with traditional themes in Irish love lyrics in this poem. But someone's reference to angels being one of them struck me as rather odd. Angels aren't all that common in the folklore, at least not the older stuff.

Common to many Irish love lyrics is the theme of poor country boy in love with daughter of wealth and status (often from the town or city). I see this song as an attempt by Kavanaugh to write a traditional Irish love song, which explains a lot about the "mysteries" some people see in the words. Some of it is about rhyme and meter, some of it is fairly stock phrasing from the tradition, to be sure.

As to the ending, I've always thought it was reference to the dangers of putting one's beloved on a pedastal, and of being enamoured of the illusion of romantic love, rather than actually loving the real human being.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 08:04 AM

Phil, I also would feel uncomfortable singing Dobbins flowery "VEIL", sounds better sung as VALE. The Vale is only a few miles down the road from me, between Armagh and Portadown. Paddy Kavanagh is looking down on us and enjoying leaving another wee bit of controversy. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 06:47 PM

I agree, great thread. I like Dick Gaughan's version from "Kist O' Gold." I had the idea of singing the song to the tune of Dobbin's Flowery Veil (from Len Graham's rendition of that song with Skylark) and Raglan sings ok with that tune too. I've felt uncomfortable with the secret sign verse and don't sing it.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 06:05 PM

Yeah, there's quite a few of us GOGs around...

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: GUEST,bluebird
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 05:58 PM

So what if he was a grumpy old git as they always say of Robert Frost.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 10:11 AM

I vote for never changing the hers to his in any song, but especially in such a beautiful song as this. That is song tampering in my book. mg

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 09:51 AM

Hats off to this thread. What a fine conversation. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 09:16 AM

I like hearing good songs on records, and on stages, and you learn a lot from that. But that isn't where they live. They live on the lips of ourselves and our friends when we sing them face to face.

Incidentally, for people who get hung up about these kind of things, I'd say this is a song that would work just as powerfully if all the "hers" were turned to "his", and so forth, sung from the stance of a woman poet. Does anyone ever do it that way?

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 08:40 AM

I Have just come on to this thread and I cannot believe that Patrick Kavanaghs two great books were not mentioned, Read TARRY FLYNN and The GREEN FOOL for an understanding of a brilliant writer and poet. Poor old Kavanagh had enough of the country yokel in him to be taken in by street wise Dublin city girls. He was a lonely man who had lingered too long on his Monaghan Farm and was never at ease with the urban way of life. The song surely spells this out without trying to phylophise every phrase. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 01:07 AM

Well, it is a lovely song in any case. For my part, it reminds me of my ex-wife. I find that I still love her and I feel that same bitter-sweet emotion that the song imparts. My favorite version is by Peter Rowan. The latest version I heard was on the Chieftan's album "Tears of Stone" by Joan Osborne but I felt the tempo was just a wee bit slower than needed.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: GUEST,visitor
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 04:34 PM

Pardon me, not a musician, poet, or artist of any kind, for imposing a post-script on this apparently long dead thread. I was drawn to this song by recent life developments, pulling it out of the deep recesses of my memory and looking up the lyrics on the web, which lead me here. You people provided me with a lot of insight and inspiration, so, a few points:

1. The extreme vulgarity of describing oneself as an angel and the ex as essentially a mud person struck me as a conceit that couldn't have been intended by the most arrogant of artists. I think I can provide a defense in mitigation of that concern: He didn't mean that he was an angel, but he did mean that his interests were in poetry and other art, and less in the material matters of this world. His important point was that he tried to interest her in the things he valued, but which were not her particular interests. He made an error and paid a heavier price than expected. When one's stated interest is in the ephemeral, rather than the material, it is a slippery slope to pretentiousness, but the truth was what it was.

2. When he said let grief be a fallen (or falling) leaf at the dawn of the day, he meant "No fear." "Just do it." Of that I am now quite certain. Instead of triumphing in his boast, however, he learned a painful lesson about the grief of love lost. No one can will it to be a mere fallen leaf (at the dawn of the day), it is more akin to an angel losing his wings (at the dawn of the day.)

3. The original disagreement about the merits of deciphering original intent versus taking the words as they are, and perhaps kneading them (with a bard's license) certainly has merit on both sides. However, the proponents of deciphering have some tangible proof of what can go haywire with a "just do it" approach: The recording by Sandy Durkin and her band members will not sit well with anyone who enjoys this song for emotional impact.

4. In the "no accounting for taste" department, I'll go out on a limb and discuss my preferred renditions: (I haven't had the privilege of hearing Marie O'Brien's recording yet.) As seems to be the unanimous agreement above, Joan Osborne's version (with the Chieftains) pretty much has to take top honors. However, there are other recordings, which, depending on both your mood and temperament, may suit the mood and win preference at any given time. Eleanor Shanley (Album?) Most notable among these is one by Eleanor Shanley. Of my "top four," hers is the only one made without the Chieftains in support. Roger Daltrey (An Irish Evening) It took me a long time to identify the singer, and I was most surprised to learn that it was none other than Roger Daltrey. This is one of the mre exercised versions and won't go over with many, I imagine, but I like it, and I've never liked the Who's music.) Van Morrison (Irish Heartbeat) I'm an extreme vanophile, so it wasn't easily that I had to give him fourth place honours. Sinnead O'Connor (Common Ground) I detested Sinnead's version at first, but, since hers is the most unadorned version, with no embellishment at all, it has grown on me quite comfortably. Mark Knopfler Mark Knopfler seems to be trying a Robbie Robertson imitation, but it sounds a bit more like Leonard Cohen with a few cups of coffee in him. No matter, one has to use one's voice characteristics as they can, I guess, and he doesn't do injury to the emotion. The song can handle a lot of variety in interpretation.

Anyway, thanks to you all. I'm not usually so wordy, but this has been a lot of fun. Vive mudcat.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: rube1
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 07:30 AM

While the original source of the myth/legend/story about the consequences of angels "literally" coupling with mortals is unknown to me, it does seem to be a theme rooted in Irish folklore. The metaphoric applications are infinite, as in this song, Raglan Road, where the final reference to the plight of a clay wooing angel elevates the singer's sorrow to an ethereal plane. I don't hear in it the singer referring to himself as an angel/artist. That would ruin it for me too if I heard it that way. To me, the angel reference is a bit of irony the singer takes for solace. I've only heard the Van Morrison/Chieftains version, but it made quite an impression. An interesting cinematic illustration of this theme is the movie "Gotham" w/ Tommy Lee Jones and Virginia Madsen.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: black walnut
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 06:33 AM

the only time i didn't liked hearing this song was when i heard it performed quickly.

i keep wondering about that line, 'on a quiet street...'. Raglan Road and Grafton Street are named, and The Enchanted Way is alluded to as well, but this last street is unnamed. is it possible that this is verse is about what happens after death, or are the 'old ghosts' a reference to yet another specific location?

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: mcpiper
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 01:28 AM

What a great thread. For years I have listened to the song, read it to people a a poem, and spent a lot of time thinking about it. Now I have a clearer idea of what it's all about, not too far from what I had worked out.
The one line above all others I wish I had penned, for me, has to be
"On a quite street, where old ghosts meet."
I have never heard the song performed by anyone, good, bad, drunk, or whatever, when I didn't enjoy and look forward to the next line.
Keep up the brilliant threads and info.
mcpiper

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Fergie
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 08:23 PM

For me the definitive version of this song is by Luke Kelly of the Dubliners. What a voice, what feeling, what resonance. Brilliant.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: black walnut
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 06:57 PM

i think the ending explains the whole; it's all been about a mortal and an immortal. it's the kind of relationship which could never be realized without severe consequences....

~ black walnut

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 06:51 PM

but it is still a fairly presumptuous metaphor,

If so the blame surely lies with whoever wrote the Book of Genesis? As I said, it's ambiguous, as people's feelings about these things often are ambiguous. Wounded pride or regret, you can sing it either way, and the listener can take it either way.

And either way, the lady in question gets immortalised.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 06:38 PM

Mmm, y'all may be right about "the creature made of clay" meaning merely mortal, but it is still a fairly presumptuous metaphor, IMHO. My gut feeling however is that it WAS intended as a put-down, to salve his amour-propre. He tried to get her to play Eliza Doolittle to his Professor Higgins, and was she grateful? Not bloody likely !

It has just struck me that the only other song I know with such potent and vivid imagery is Dylan's "Mr Tambourine Man", (and maybe "Love Minus Zero No Limit). Hope that isn't going from the sublime to the ridiculous!

Murray

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 10:30 AM

Mickey191' I agree about Joan Osborne's version. I've only heard one or two other versions of this song, but NO ONE will ever be able to do it better. I too listen to it every day.

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: black walnut
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 09:40 AM

i love this song, and i love this thread...

there's a kind of madness to this song, the kind of lonesome insanity that you feel when you're sitting in the subway car analyzing everybody around you, and singing songs in your head, but feeling quite invisible and unwatched yourself. i love it that these not uncommon feelings of unrequited passion have been expressed in the kind of imagery that makes everything so seem so much bigger and more significant than it really is. long dark hair, angels, ravines, secret signs....it's brilliant! here's someone who didn't just feel the feelings intensely, but could really write about them.

~ black walnut

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:52 AM

There's an ambiguity, probably intentional, in those last two lines.

I woo'd not as I should a creature made of clay

You can say that two ways - one way he's saying that he shouldn't have wooed her at all; and the other is that he wooed here in the wrong way.

The implication of the first meaning carries over into the final line, and it's effectively saying, if you play with fire you'll get burnt, so you shouldn't play with fire.

But with the second meaning it's more that he's recogbnising that for an angel (a poet) to woo a mortal means giving up the trappings and privileges of being an angel, and that's the way to do it. And there's regret that he didn't see that in time.

I suspect there's both meanings in it at the same time.

But one thing I think probably isn't there is the sense that being a creature of clay is a put-down, as of something unworthy or soiled - I'd see it as just meaning mortal, like anyone descended from Adam and Eve. (But maybe I'm wrong there, and that's another level of ambiguity in how he's feeling.)

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: AndyG
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:05 AM

Bugger, missed a bracket !

re: "When the angel woos..."

Angel serves as a metaphor for artists generally (specifically the author) implying a "spiritual" viewpoint. Clay represents non-artists (materialists?), those people with a more "worldly" view.
Translation:
When the artist (angel) pursues material (clay) values he sacrifices the very attributes (wings) which define him.
This is the choice that Kavanagh faces.

AndyG

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: AndyG
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:03 AM

re: "When the angel woos..."

I offer a different take on this addmittedly unfortunate phrasing.

Angel serves as a metaphor for artists generally (specifically the author) implying a "spiritual" viewpoint. Clay represents non-artists (materialists?), those people with a more "worldly" view.
Translation:
This is the choice that Kavanagh faces.

No more correct that any other reading of poetry, that's the beauty of poetry, but it's the way I've always understood the lyric and I was dumbstruck by the realisation that there was a more obvious and far more cruel interpretation.

AndyG

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 04:43 AM

I'm a big Kavanagh fan...my personal favourite poem of his is "Pegasus". I've often heard that he was a grumpy type but he must have been burning inside.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Mickey191
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:33 AM

It's funny how one can hear a song many times and it leaves no great impression. Then someone arranges it and gets a great singer & keyboard artist to bring new life and meaning to the material. Such is the case with Raglan Road sung by Joan Osborne. I play it 10 0r more times every day and am captive to its' beauty and pain. Love lost-is there any theme more haunting? If you have not heard Miss Osborne, Beg, borrow or buy "The Chieftains tears of stone."

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:31 PM

I have always loved this poem, all except for the one couplet:
"When the angel woos the clay, He'll lose his wings at the dawn of the day"

That has always struck me as such a self-centered, dismissive sentiment, and in truth, it spoils the poem for me. A more generous soul would have wished the girl well, reaizing that they were not made for each other. ( Incidentally the bakery girl sounds much more likely than the married lady).

I have always suspected that Kavanagh had just such a personality as has been confirmed above. But despite that "Raglan Road" is still one of the most evocative and haunting songs ever written.

Murray

Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road
From: Jimmy C
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:04 PM

Frank,

Thanks fir that story. It's too bad you did not stop and speak to him, that would be something to remember. I guess I got it all wrong. Thanks again.