Say, isn't that the same tune as...?

Subject: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 08:17 PM

I mentioned something about this on the tune-writing thread. I have occasionally had epiphanies. You know - those moments where neurons connect somewhere in the deep, dark recesses of an unused portion of your brain, and you shout "EUREKA!" and people look at you patiently and ask, "what is it now, Jeri?"

This happened once when I was at NOMAD. I explained at breakfast how I had discovered that the tune to Jamie Foyers was the same as Dancing at Whitsun. I suppose everyone else had realised that years ago, or were thinking "so what?" but they were certainly were tolerant of my excitement.

I don't know if this sort of things happens to other people. Maybe there really are only 10 tunes in the world.

The same thing happened to me today. I was listening to one of the Topic re-issues. The tune was the one to the song The Young Sailor Cut Down in His Prime. (Sorry - couldn't find a tune.) Something nagged me, until I finally realised it was almost the same tune as...

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 08:47 PM

(Pills of White Mercury) Streets of Lorado, and some have said St. James Infirmry, but I sing that one by a different tune.

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 08:55 PM

What's even worse is when you write a song and have some observant member of the "music police" pipe up with, "Sure sounds like 'Dark as a Dungeon' to me!"

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 08:57 PM

The one I'm thinking of is a completely unrelated song - the words, I mean.

I'm not quite sure whether I should post the name of the song tonight, or wait until tomorrow. Maybe no one really cares. Maybe no one else will think the tune's similar. Oy...decisions!

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:09 PM

ah please Jeri! Maybe it was the orginal Irish tune whose name I can't remember.

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Susan A-R
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:19 PM

Then there's Otterburn and Danny Deever. hmmm

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:22 PM

Haha! I'll do it in a way that others can ignore if they want to guess. Here's the song, with 2 tunes. One is major, and one is what sounds like a minor version of the same tune.

I have this funny feeling that this is a no-brainer for everyone except me...

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: ddw
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:27 PM

Nope, never had anybody look at me and say "What is it now, Jeri?" But then, I don't say "eureka" much either.

Have been noticing lately that every time I get a new CD of an old bluesman, there is a song on it to exactly the same tune as Robert Johnson's "Come On In My Kitchen." I have at least four other songs now, and that's not counting James Cotton's instrumental "Cotton In The Kitchen."

david

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:28 PM

Jeri I sing that song as We'll Rant and We'll Roar Like True Newfoundlanders, which to me is pretty close to Down by the Royal Albion (Sailor Cut Down in His Prime) but with a few differences. Sorry I don't have Hearme or Paltalk.

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:36 PM

then again I have never heard or sang the minor version of Newfoundlanders until just now and yes, the minor tune in the DT is really close.

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:39 PM

Yup sure is Jeri. I'd never noticed it before.

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:42 PM

Maybe you right, there are only 10 tunes in the world. As a bit of a drift have you ever heard Old Blind Dogs version of Pills of White Mercury? fabulous!

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:50 PM

Well I guess I didn't need to be so secretive about the song.

Anyway, there are differences, but not that many. I listened to the CD of SCDIHP, and sang Spanish Ladies along with it without much of a problem.

Sally Roger'sLovely Agnes works well with Midnight on the Water.

This started last night with me talking about Three Blind Mice and being reminded of the slip jig The Butterfly. Maybe I should just go to bed now...

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:34 PM

Am I a a figment of my own imagination....hmmm...

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:56 PM

Jeri, I did it when I finally realized that Coming Back to Miltown was the same tune as When the Works All Done Next Fall. Not really surprising, because many Irish songs came West, and got new lyrics.

There are also only really 16 notes, and a finite combination of those notes......so it is inevetible that something will sound like something else. I often hear relationships that no one else hears.....because I hear intervals, not notes.

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:40 AM

16 notes? I only know of 12! (But there are 22 in some forms of Indian music, although they don't use them all at the same time in any one mode.)

Steve

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: English Jon
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:49 AM

Maybe there is only one note and a capo? Also, only one beat to the bar. Suddenly kopenitsas become easy...

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:56 AM

OK, it was a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess--8 notes in the major scale, plus the flat/sharps, if I was a smart person I would have gone to the keyboard and counted).....OK, gonna do that now........please hold. <<<<<<<<<<<. OK, OK, Western chromatic scale is 12 notes. We are only talking half tones here, not Eastern quarter tones, Eastern modal, etc.

mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa. My original point still holds tho, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 05:03 AM

Course it does, course it does! 12, 16 -- who's counting?

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:56 AM

On a related tack, I was at a Guitar Accompaniment workshop at Celtic Connections on Saturday, and Kevin Mackenzie, who was running the session said that the G major scale and E Minor were interchangeable. I know that is not quite accurate, but wasn't going to interrupt the flow of what he was saying.

A know-all beside me said -"They're not, really because the minor scale has a flattened fourth " (or some such)

Kevin didn't bat an eyelid - just said "Ah yes, but I'm talking about the Aeolian mode"..

Which MAY well be absolute nonsense, but it cerainly shut up the know-all..

That might be a good thread ..."BS answers I have given in response to dumbass questions"

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 08:20 AM

Kevin 1 - know-all 0 -- G minor has a flat fourth, but Em is the same as G major, as any pianist will be happy to prove. They are different modes of the same key: Gmaj = Ionian, Em = Aeolian.

So much for music; here's a math(s) lesson! Let's say we just use eight distinct notes for our tune -- no sharps or flats -- and we have sixteen bars with four notes each, that's ... a lot of notes! If the second part of the tune is a repeat of the first, that's halved the number, so we have 8 * 4 = 32 notes in our tune. Now, each one can go in any of the eight positions we've decided to use, so the first note can be any one of eight; the second can also be any one of eight: this means the firt two notes can be in any combination out of the 8 * 8 = 64. Still with me? Good. If we go on multiplying by eight for each new note, we get 2**32 (2 raised to the 32nd power), which is 4,294,967,296. (Work it out yourself, if you don't believe me!) You can write a lot of tunes before you repeat yourself!

Steve

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 08:25 AM

What am I talking about? it's 8**32, which is about 79,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ... should be enough to keep us all out of trouble!

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: LR Mole
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 09:26 AM

Huh?

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Gary T
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 09:55 AM

Mole, he's figuring out the number of possible different tune patterns over 16 bars, having 8 different notes to work with.

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 10:02 AM

There is the famous story of the jazzman (can't remember who) who always had these great tunes come to him in the middle of the night, but never wrote them down. One night he decided that he was going to put a sheet of music paper by his bed and he had this incredible tune that came into his head in the middle of the night, and he wrote it down, totally thrilled. When he woke up in the morning, he realised it was the middle section of "Stardust".

yours, Peter T.
P.S. Most country songs are "The Great Speckled Bird".

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: lamarca
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 10:27 AM

There are certain "Ur tunes" that get used over and over in traditional songs with variations in one or two notes, or shifts from jig time to reel time to waltz time.

If you're one of those people whose brains are susceptible to pattern recognition (I know I am - I attribute it to "librarian syndrome"), it can drive you nuts when you hear a song or tune and there's this little nagging voice that says "Isn't there another song with this tune? I swear I can hear some other words buried in my brain somewhere..."

Some examples of tunes that got used for a zillion songs are Star of the County Down/Dives and Lazarus, Tramps and Hawkers/Paddy West, Sweet Betsy From Pike, The Humors of Whisky/Poteen, The Irish Soldier Boy, etc.

It might be fun to start a thread of "How many songs do you know set to the tune......"

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Long Firm Freddie (at work)
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:30 AM

What about Mike Harding's Rochdale Cowboy and The Blue Sky Boys (I think it was them) "I'm using my Bible for a Road Map"

LFF

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Bert
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:47 PM

Actually Sorcha maybe closer to the practical truth than theory would have us believe. If you try playing an instrument that has only one octave, you'll find that you always need an extra note or two at each end of the scale; and playing it's octave doesn't cut it.

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: NightWing
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:41 PM

Speaking of "ur-tunes" (as lamarca said), Arthur C. Clarke -- in his collection of humorous science fiction short stories, Tales from the White Hart -- has one story (can't remember the title, sorry) in which the narrator describes a sound engineer who invents a machine to find the perfect jingle. You know the way a song will get stuck in your head and go round and round for weeks?

The inventor analyzes lots of popular jingles and tunes and has a machine try different combinations and permutations of their common elements.

The machine finally hits the right combination. The inventor manages to set the machine to repeat the tune, and listens to it enough times that it sets itself into his head SO thoroughly that he can no longer pay attention to ANYTHING but the tune in his head. Not even shock treatment will bring him out of it. *G*

Funny book! (all y'all music-type people will also like the first story in the collection: "The Silencer", which is available on-line at this site. Enjoy!)

BB,
NightWing

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 05:47 PM

Pattern recognition - that must be it, then. It does drive me nuts at times.

True story. I was at a session in Dover, Delaware. We had just finished playing John Hardy. After that, someone did Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ'. (same tune) A bit later came another song (about a fire) to the tune. Some new guys had come to the session that month and wanted me to play fiddle with them. They kept asking "do you know '______?" I kept answering "I don't know," because I often can't remember song or tune names. They said they had an Irish song they wanted me to try...same tune, and they didn't even realise it. Four John Hardys in one session...oy!

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 06:10 PM

There are only 2 tunes in the world. One goes de diddly de diddly and the other goes rum tiddy rum tiddy rum tiddy.

Ask Manitas to sing them and they will both sound the same.

LTS *BG*

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 03:27 AM

Liz -- you forgot "Dum de dum de dum de dum/Dum de dum de dum-dum", surely the most famous and well-known tune inthe whole British Isles -- "Barwick Green", aka "The Archers"!

Steve *EBG*

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 11:18 PM

Nancy Whiskey and Loch Lomand are the same tune. And speaking of Ragland Road, it is the same tune as that silly one about the razor blade was Japanese made and the rope was Belfast linen. What a difference a set of lyrics makes.

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Snuffy
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 05:58 AM

There are many variations of Star of the County Down/Dives and Lazarus - I know the tune to Brigg Fair is related to it, but I can't make up my mind about the Irish 'Foggy Dew' (As down the glen one misty morn ..). Is this a variant of SotCD or is it a completely different tune?

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 05:19 PM

So how many tunes are there really?

There's "Willikins and his Dinah"
Streets of Laredo
Lillibulero
Wearing of the green
Little old Mud Cabin on the Hill

That seems about it ;-)

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: John Hardly
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 07:11 PM

Jeri,

I know this ain't whacha had in mind but...

Money For Nothin'-Dire Straits/Spirit in the Sky-Norman Geenbaum

Heart Full Of Soul-Yardbirds/Secret Agent Man-Johnny Rivers

All I Wanna Do-Cheryl Crow/Stuck In The Middle With You-Stealer's Wheel

Roll With It-Steve Winwood/Road Runner-Isley Bros?

Future's So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades-Timbuk 3/Singer in A Rock-n-Roll Band-Moody Blues

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 07:10 AM

..........also 'Jesse James' & the Carter Family's 'Are you lonesome tonight'

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lZcCcIf--Js

Subject: RE: Say, isn't that the same tune as...?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 04:17 AM

"There's "Willikins and his Dinah"
Streets of Laredo
Lillibulero
Wearing of the green
Little old Mud Cabin on the Hill"
Seeger and MacColl did an evening of tune variants at the Singers Club years ago, and Peggy (half-joking) said there were about 5.
Had great fun when Peggy was preparing Ewan's songbook, of helping out by spotting which tunes he had adapted for his own songs.
Still can't get over Flower of Scotland's operatic origins (Nabucco?)
Jim Carroll