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U.S. growing more and more disturbing
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Subject: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: GUEST Date: 29 Jan 01 - 02:36 AM I live in New York. Has anyone else noticed the growing "Shadow culture"? SHADOW CULTURE is a Carl Jung term he used it to describe Nazi Germany before W.W. 2 broke out. It's like a photo negative; the darker opposite.- The nasty election. Dubya's victory, He is a serial killer, sanctioned or not. The economic fear. How nasty everyone was in the temples, I mean Malls, over the holidays. Colin "what's gulf war syndrome?" Powell outlining how we will use force if war comes about.WHAT WAR? WITH WHO? The stealth bomber flying over head while Ray Charles sang America the Beautiful at the Super Bowl. A double murder suspect winning NFL and Super bowl MVP. How badly some folks are behaving, road rage x 10. sean puffy combs and his "every thing is wonderful" goose stepping opposites, Brittany nsync street boys.Angry NRA bumperstickers everywhere,and no one has bothered to informed bright eyes,I mean Mosses. err I mean Mr. Heston, that he should stop trying to make "beneath the planet of the apes" come to pass.I think/fear we will be marching off to war sometime soon, only question is who, why, when? probably oil.probably saddam, probably an ignorant onslaught of flag waving patriots and more angry bumperstickers. TRY BEING ESPECIALLY NICE TO EVERYBODY, ESPECIALLY THE RABID JERKS.MAYBE IT CAN BE PREVENTED.Feed back appreciated. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: mkebenn Date: 29 Jan 01 - 06:24 AM Why the guest tag? |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Midchuck Date: 29 Jan 01 - 07:31 AM TRY BEING ESPECIALLY NICE TO EVERYBODY, ESPECIALLY THE RABID JERKS Even people who blatantly contradict themselves in the same sentence and don't even notice it? Peter. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: InOBU Date: 29 Jan 01 - 07:46 AM Well, if you are in New York City, and worried about creeping facism... the best thing you can do, quite serriously is... COME HEAR SORCHA DORCHA! The cure for creeping facisim. Songs about the effect of forced assimilation of American Natives! We will be performing the song that created enough decention for the last band members to walk, the Ballad of Amadou Diallo, In the words of the great Arthur Kenoy, "The civil rights movement died the day we stopped singing..." Sorcha Dorcha will be singing and playing hot Celtic Music for social change at... The People's Voice Cafe - The Workmen's Circle 45 East 33rd Street, Between Park and Madison, Feb 10, at 8pm... Also on the bill will be Ray Collins. Don't mourne the death of American democracy... ORGANISE! Make a living culture of change!!!!!!! See you at the concert or reading the note from your doctor... Larry |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Allan C. Date: 29 Jan 01 - 08:56 AM Life in the big city has a way of grinding folks down. There is an aura of negativity that eventually permeates every aspect of thought and action. A young, then unknown, Carl Sagan explained this far better than I could in a Life Magazine article in 1959. Look it up at your local library. After awhile it becomes easier and easier to look around and find things that aren't what they probably ought to be. Such things have ALWAYS been there; always will be. As I write this I am flashing back to the days in my own life when THE BOMB loomed over us - especially those of us like me who lived in Washington, D.C. at that time - and tainted nearly every aspect of our daily lives. For me, the cure was to get out of town. I eventually made my way to the peaceful Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. It was like, but far better than the old Drifters' song, "Up On the Roof" alluded to: "On the roof, it's peaceful as can be and there the world below can't bother me." That escape, (the roof) was simply a few moments of respite from the many cares of the world. Getting out of town can be virtually permanent. Once distance is put between you and the rat-race, there is a wonderful insulation that comes with it. Sure, the problems still abound. But only the ones you choose to think about, trouble you out in the country. Your problems are generally simpler: Are there enough groceries at hand to last if we get snowed in? Will the well dry up before the drought ends? Will the new highway, (Corridor H) really bring good things to the area or will it bring it to ruin? Let's hope the early frost doesn't keep the trees from looking beautiful in their Autumn colors. I know that not everyone can uproot themselves from their ties (however imagined some of them might be) to the city. Life in the country or in small, semi-isolated towns is not for everyone, thank goodness. But I have to say that for me, the change has been a good one. Give it some thought. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: GUEST,The Sky is NOT Falling Date: 29 Jan 01 - 09:29 AM Rather than write a long, rambling dissertation in rebuttal to the first thread, I would just direct the author of that rant to have a listen to Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start The Fire". |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: kendall Date: 29 Jan 01 - 09:31 AM Living in a city is an unnatural act |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 29 Jan 01 - 09:47 AM I'm with you, Kendall. Living in the city, or paying lots of attention to the media, is like living with Chicken Little all the time. There's an urgency that just doesn't exist far from the madding crowd. Folks here in Cow Hampshire aren't country hicks, there are lots of informed, caring people who stop to let you out of your parking place, wave you on to turn when they have the right of way, strike up a conversation in the line at the bank, and so on. There's also drugs, anger, frustration, pain and suffering. But I think we have a little more perspective. |
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Subject: ADDPOP: We Didn't Start the Fire From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 29 Jan 01 - 09:59 AM I think these are the words: WE DIDN'T START THE FIRE performed by Billy Joel Harry Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnnie Ray South Pacific, Walter Winchell, Joe DiMaggio Joe McCarthy, Richard Nixon, Studebaker, television North Korea, South Korea, Marilyn Monroe Rosenbergs, H-bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom Brando, "The King and I" and "The Catcher in the Rye" Eisenhower, vaccine, England's got a new queen Marciano, Liberace, Santayana goodbye {Refrain} We didn't start the fire It was always burning Since the world's been turning We didn't start the fire No we didn't light it But we tried to fight it Joseph Stalin, Malenkov, Nasser and Prokofiev Rockefeller, Campanella, Communist Bloc Roy hn, Juan Peron, Toscanini, dacron Dien Bien Phu falls, "Rock Around the Clock" Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn's got a winning team Davy Crockett, Peter Pan, Elvis Presley, Disneyland Bardot, Budapest, Alabama, Krushchev Princess Grace, "Peyton Place", trouble in the Suez {Refrain} Little Rock, Pasternak, Mickey Mantle, Kerouac Sputnik, Chou En-Lai, "Bridge on the River Kwai" Lebanon, Charlse de Gaulle, California baseball Starkweather, homicide, children of thalidomide Buddy Holly, "Ben Hur", space monkey, Mafia Hula hoops, Castro, Edsel is a no-go U-2, Syngman Rhee, payola and Kennedy Chubby Checker, "Psycho", Belgians in the Congo {Refrain} Hemingway, Eichmann, "Stranger in a Strange Land" Dylan, Berlin, Bay of Pigs invasion "Lawrence of Arabia", British Beatlemania Ole Miss, John Glenn, Liston beats Patterson Pope Paul, Malcolm X, British politician sex JFK, blown away, what else do I have to say {Refrain} Birth control, Ho Chi Minh, Richard Nixon back again Moonshot, Woodsto, Watergate, punk rock Begin, Reagan, Palestine, terror on the airline Ayatollah's in Iran, Russians in Afghanistan "Wheel of Fortune", Sally Ride, heavy metal suicide Foreign debts, homeless vets, AIDS, crack, Bernie Goetz Hypodermics on the shores, China's under martial law Rock and roller cola wars, I can't take it anymore {Refrain} We didn't start the fire But when we are gone Will it still burn on, and on, and on, and on.
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: CamiSu Date: 29 Jan 01 - 10:10 AM Maybe it's just that there're more of us, but it does seem that there is more distress, even here in rural Vermont. A young man of 18 agreed to a sentence in the murder of his Mom and the attempted murder of his Dad a year ago. To tell the truth, it sounds like some serious mental disturbance there. (I've met his Dad, and have some of his Mom's sheep) And just yesterday, two well loved professors at Dartmouth were murdered at their home in a nearby town. (Where Wavestar's old boyfriend lives) It hits real close to home, sometimes, and then we realise that everywhere is our home. It is a bit scary, and I know we here are (with many others) doing all we can to fight this, but right now the world looks a bit darker. CamiSu |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Allan C. Date: 29 Jan 01 - 10:13 AM Chicken Little was running down the road, as you may recall, shouting his warning, "The sky is falling! The sky is falling! I must go tell the king!" He passed a small sparrow who, upon hearing Chicken Little's cry, flopped down upon its back with its feet in the air. "What in the world are you doing, young sparrow? Don't you know that the sky is falling?" asked Chicken Little. Still on his back with his feet in the air, the sparrow answered, "One does what one can!" |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Mooh Date: 29 Jan 01 - 10:15 AM Somehow missing throughout all this is the simple rule, "Do onto others as you would have them do onto you." You're right Guest, from my side of the border it IS kinda frightening, but it isn't confined to your country. Doomed to repeat history? Likely. Peace. Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Grab Date: 29 Jan 01 - 10:16 AM I'll bite. Culture is the ppl in it - and you and your friends are part of the culture. Start with you and your friends. Smile a lot, treat everyone (even grumpy teenage shop assistants) with respect and work from there. And if you're thinking of them as rabid jerks, then you're in as much need as they are. Colin Powell is in charge of Defence (oops, Defense ;-) so he's got to run the military. Increasingly this isn't defence of the US territory (same applies to most Western countries) but defence of your allies (Kuwait), or defence of ppl who can't stand up for themselves (Indonesia). The lesson of Somalia (where the local warlords beat the US peacekeepers into submission) and Bosnia (where the peacekeepers didn't have the authority to take action) have been learned, and that lesson is to make sure your peacekeepers have the backup they need. I don't agree with the missile defence system, but that'll die of natural causes the same way SDI did. Oh, and I don't like Britney Spears and N-Sync much myself, but I wouldn't say they're symptomatic of a total breakdown in society! Maybe of a breakdown in musical standards, but otherwise I think you're whistling there. Grab. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Jim the Bart Date: 29 Jan 01 - 10:32 AM I don't think our guest is that far off in his comparison between pre-WWII Germany and present day America; I would, however, back the analogy up by a few years. I think pre-WWI is more apt. They, too, felt that they had reached a high level of culture and civilization. So high, in fact, that they could brush off the shadow culture of which Jung spoke as unfortunate anomolies in an otherwise wonderful world. They (like us?) thought very highly of themselves AS A PEOPLE and paid little attention to the rumblings from the cultural fault lines that seem so obvious to historians in retrospect. Their mantra - and ours - was summed up quite well by Frank Zappa: It Can't Happen Here I keep telling you, my dear That it can't happen here. . . Guess again. I remain, respectfully yours Ozymandias |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: GUEST,Liberal Date: 29 Jan 01 - 10:48 AM "Colin Powell is in charge of Defence (oops, Defense ;-) so he's got to run the military." I think Colin Powell is running the State Department. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: InOBU Date: 29 Jan 01 - 11:14 AM As to the "It can't happen here..." line, I prefer the Phil Oachs line... And the quote you in the class room That it can't happen here But it has happened here. Tell the Native victems of Mason, of Jackson, of Custer, of Bear Coat Hays, of the FBI (and of Clinton's broken promice to Leonard Pelitier) tell all of them along with the 55 million Africans murdered by slavery, stand on America's mass graves and say, it can't happen here. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: LR Mole Date: 29 Jan 01 - 11:19 AM Om. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 01 - 11:30 AM With some actual social planning (backed up by strong legislation) we could have avoided building huge nightmarish cities. We could have avoided massive deforestation, and pollution of waterways. We could have avoided wiping out millions of free-ranging buffalo on the western plains. And so on. I was all done in the ceaseless pursuit of money and possessions. That's the "free market economy". Planning ahead would be a restriction of the free market. And you guys call that "communism" or some such silly name, but the communists were even less responsible when it came to such planning. They too were seeking supremacy. Over what??? When will we ever learn that we are already okay, just as we are...and that BIGGER and MORE is not necessarily better? - LH |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 29 Jan 01 - 11:45 AM And the omnipresent question, is it worse than usual or, thanks to tv, internet and the like, just reported more? And does the mass of information hitting people every day help the shadow culture grow? There's a theory that one of the necessary elements leading to major social/political change (revolution) is that very clear lines of "fracture" need to be develop around competing values, ideas and beliefs. The old "them" and "us" idea. As more and more people identify more and more strongly with a particular ideology, the possibility of trouble grows. (The "nice" thing about a war is that it tends to blur the internal lines of fracture by providing an external enemy to focus on.) Pre WWI, as I remember, was a time when the old aristocratic class system was giving way, and the middle class was expanding. Today in the US, the middle class, is shrinking, there is a growing lower class and the concentration of wealth into fewer and fewer hands is on the rise. What better way to divide than into "have" and "have-nots". I'm not advocating any particular solution but it is a significant trend in our society. You and I (fine, noble altruists that we are) aren't concerned with such crass materialism. Many (to many?) of our fellow citizens are. A recession would only make the gap more apparent. Even in my city (90,000), rudeness seems to be on the rise in the malls and on the road. People don't want diverse communities so more and more gated communities spring up everyday. Private schooling and home schooling cater (in part) to the same thing. The vision for future development is to turn the county into a wall-to-wall country club community. ( a serious proposal to the local Planning Board, btw). I guess those of us who don't make $100k plus a year can live in the neighboring counties. A few other examples come to mind: (depending on your political/social beliefs). Louis Farrakan and the politics of hate, various state successionist movements, Ruby Ridge and Waco, textbooks sacrifcing accuracy to appease one pressure group or another (in the name of political correctness). Or just to "dumb down" the texts so it isn't as hard. Now I'm depressed. Regards, John
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Kim C Date: 29 Jan 01 - 12:11 PM When there are more people, there are more ugly people. There are always going to be ugly people. They are not going to go away. Somebody once said that the best way for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing - I know, believe me, that it sometimes seems fruitless to be good when everybody else is an asshole. But when everybody else is an asshole, SOMEBODY has to be nice. It's easy to get mad when somebody makes you mad. I know. I get mad. Sometimes I should, sometimes I shouldn't. Now me, personally, I think adults should be able to play nice with each other without a lot of teenage backbiting and BS. Maybe I'm naive, because I just had somebody throw me this very thing this morning over something that happened A YEAR AGO and they never said anything till now. I do believe in the good of people, and believe that good will prevail. But it won't do it on its own. :) KFC |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 29 Jan 01 - 12:38 PM Little Hawk, I agree in spirit. We probably won't learn. Your litany reenforces that hindsight is always better than foresight. City Planning has been practiced for years, which is probably part of the problem. Capitalism demands growth. It is a necessary element of the system. Once we learn that all that bigger means is bigger, we'll go to some other economic system. The "bigger is better" myth pervades the culture. (That and most people seem to want the benefits of the "bigger"). IMO. As a culture (and not just in the US), we need to redefine our basic values and priorities, then build on that. If we truly value the family as one of our core values, then we do things that enhances the family. We haven't. The family is sacrificed to another value: Quantity over quality. We're stuck in the Calvinist maxim that dying with the most possessions proves you are one of the chosen. Kim, While I'm not a big fan of claiming that lab rat experiments relate directly to our society, studies of overcrowding in rate "utopias" (Plenty of everything except space), show that the lack of adequate space alone can cause all sorts of ugly behavior. The same may be true of people. We all need our personal space and our needs are more complex. It isn't just physical space. Its cell phones, beepers, wireless hand-helds, the internet, call waiting. That and the fear that the "bigger and more" (a core value) doesn't seem to be happening to a lot of people anymore. "It's easy to get mad when somebody makes you mad" IMO, being mad back is my decision. Being self programed, so to speak, the only "devil that made me do it', is inside me. Which is I think what you're saying. A friend brought up something that happened a year ago? A Scorpio maybe. We do hold grudges, you know. Hope you asked why they waited so long to bring it up. That seems to me to be the real issue. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Kim C Date: 29 Jan 01 - 12:49 PM Yes John that is what I meant, and yes I did say, gee whiz, wish you had said something to me before... oh well... For a few minutes I made the choice to be mad, then I was done being mad so I made the choice to go get more coffee. :) I am not mad now although my widdle feewings are still a widdle hurt but I'll get over it. I do think too many people competing for the same resources causes us to be a little less sweet to one another. But I also don't think the sky is falling. KFC |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Grab Date: 29 Jan 01 - 01:05 PM Apologies Liberal, I'm probably wrong there - ah well. Grab. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Bill D Date: 29 Jan 01 - 02:03 PM The sky does not HAVE to fall all at once to be a threat! Houses get dry-rot & termites which eat slowly, but surely...pollutants are not dumped into the rivers & oceans all at once.....all the trees are not cut down in one year....kids bands did not switch to mean, degrading, self-destructive lyrics overnight.....ghettos and slums were once new, well-maintained, happy neighborhoods......the highways did not become crowded, slow and full of rage instantly....... Those who do the math and SEE the statistics and measure the pollutants and the ozone and the topsoil and the trees and the fish and the sheer, growing MASSES of humans have been telling us for many years that there are a few problems...for 20-30 years now, they have been increasing the tone of the warnings........but.....like a frog in a pot of slowly heated water, we refuse to jump! And those who aspire to **POWER** simply hate to give us bad news , or even admit that it IS bad, else it might interfere with their short-term objectives.... So many people are unable to discriminate between uncomfortable symptoms, and real, basic problems, and the ones who can seldom run for office, or have any hopes of being elected. This planet will not support 85 trillion people doing what they are now...you know that....but you are unwilling to focus on where BELOW that obviously silly number that real safety and sustainable comfort would lie. ......and I don't have the 'credentials' to convince you on MY say-so, 'cause I'm just an old autoharp player and woodworker. But, if you are young enough, and are around 40-50 years from now, perhaps you will remember reading this post and say.."yeah, there was an old curmudgeon years ago that said something about these problems on a forum I usta read..." and, if over the next 40-50 years, many of the problems are alleviated and/or solved, you WILL be very aware of the sacrifices it took to do it!...Sometimes a LOT of a house has to be torn down and rebuilt to get the dry rot and termites out....... .....sorry...the tone of the "guest' question and some of the answers just pushed my buttons |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:11 PM Defence of your allies (Kuwait) Defence of your oil might be closer to the truth. (And that applies to the other countries involved at all. That was no altruistic war.) |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: GUEST,Monashee Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:50 PM Come on people now..smile on your brother..everybody get together ..got to love one another right now~ Okay here is my two cents worth...I agree that tis the most peaceful living out in the countryside..(being a hick from the boonies myself). Speaking as one who does not live in the States...I have to say that there are are a lot of folks who view Dubya as a puppet who shouldn't be in power....but that is neither here nor there...There is a constant dance between the forces of nature.the ying and the yang..Humans all over the globe need to realize the destruction which we are inflicting upon our most beautiful planet...and upon our selves...All part of the cycle? Peace must come from within...it is in us all....I hope we can find it and all live together without the ever constant threat of war and the suffering and pain which is a part of every day existance for some.~ |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: SeanM Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:53 PM Sounds like Alligator Control is slipping up. Someone'd better wake up Dillinger and have him give 'em a poke. M |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:56 PM Whatttt?????? - LH |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: kimmers Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:56 PM John the Skeptic sez: "Even in my city (90,000), rudeness seems to be on the rise in the malls and on the road. People don't want diverse communities so more and more gated communities spring up everyday. Private schooling and home schooling cater (in part) to the same thing. The vision for future development is to turn the county into a wall-to-wall country club community. ( a serious proposal to the local Planning Board, btw). I guess those of us who don't make $100k plus a year can live in the neighboring counties." Oh, boy is this true. My community is a bit like this, though a bit bigger. Everyone new coming to town wants to live out in the suburbs in a new gated housing development so that they never have to see the poor people. I've met many, many people who are completely unaware of the level of poverty that actually exists in some neighborhoods in our town. They live in the suburbs, maybe commute downtown (one to a car... grr!) to work for the state, private-school their kids, and never see the run-down shacks. They never see my neighbor who talks to the streetlight when he gets off his meds, or his step-father who rides a bike several miles to work each day because he can't afford car insurance or even a working car. I guess I'm a little warped. I sort of like big cities, some of them. A big city can have a marvelous energy. I adore Vancouver BC and San Francisco. I live where I do because it's a great place to practice medicine and I have great partners, and we are well rooted where we are. But sometimes I get bored and restless, wishing for more excitement and challenge. For me, life in a small town or on a farm would make me a little crazy. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: katlaughing Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:59 PM Well said, BillD. InOBU, I had read, in our statewide paper that Clinton did pardon Peltier. Is that not true? |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Troll Date: 29 Jan 01 - 04:00 PM McGarth. Alliances between countries are ALWAYS based on the premise of quid pro quo. We defend Kuwaiti "independence", they sell us oil. No one with enough brain to keep their scalp inflated thinks otherwise. If they weren't sitting on top of a huge reserve of oil, Sadam would be in control right now and they know it. No war is altrustic. They are all fought to keep someone else from controling territory and therefore resources or to gain control of same. We no longer fight to directly control territory a'la Germany or Japan or England or the US in the days of westward expansion. Now we have alliances that protect our ecomonies. Why have to administer when you can control from the outside, or have mutual trade agreements. It's cheaper and easier in the long run. troll |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 01 - 04:10 PM Yeah, the Gulf War was a very cynical exercise. Saddam got suckered in by his former backers, since he wasn't needed anymore to beat up on Iran. And it was a GREAT testing ground for new weaponry. One thing to be happy about. Canada is still a very relaxed and peaceful society, relatively speaking. I invite any Americans to come up here and see for themselves. You will be most welcome here. Just don't all come at once, eh? (Grin) - LH |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 29 Jan 01 - 05:01 PM Bill D, Those who asspire or have power aren't worried as they can afford the technology, limited resources and all that to outlast the masses. And (IMO) you hit it. Short of developing a matter transmuter or cheap space travel, sustaining the current rate of resource consumption by the industrialized nations isn't possible. I think 40 years is generous. Without rethinking our basic value system, we're looking at shortages that can only be resolved by expansionism/imperilaism. There could probably be a whole thread on the tyranny of the credentialed experts. It truly takes rethinking our whole way of life, not carefully developed long range plans replete with graphs and charts that assume the future replicates the past. It just needs a little fine tuning. Everybody has buttons. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: InOBU Date: 29 Jan 01 - 05:07 PM Hi Kat, I have gotten the word he didn't from a number of sources. We had a big demonstration to thank Clinton here in NY when it was anounced he would, then we waited and waited, and so if you have word he is out, and a good source PLEASE let us know. It is agonizing thinking of him still there. Larry |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 29 Jan 01 - 05:13 PM troll, And what do we do when the resources aren't there to control anymore? Go peacefully into that good-night? LH is right in part. We created the monster and like the good doctor found we couldn't control it. When he attacked Kuwait, that was made clear. On a scale of 1 - 10, I'd rate protection of Kuwait's sovereignty at about a 4, Oil at a 9. I'm not sure how cynical the move was as leaders the world over have shown an amazing capacity for self-delusion. If was breaks out in the mid-east, given that there are at least two and maybe more nuclear powers in the area, it may all be a moot point. A few well placed air bursts and the residual radiation might make the oil unuseable or unattainable. Oh well, there's always Alaska. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 29 Jan 01 - 05:44 PM Some food for though about GWB's decision to involve religions and charities in providing services for the government. 1. Religious organizations enjoy many exemptions from civil rights laws. They are perfectly free to base hiring decision on their own religious beliefs. Using my tax dollars. 2. There are no indications of any requirements controlling provision of services. Religious organizations could give preferential treatment to certain groups. Or define treatment as follows: "In Texas, where then-Governor Bush implemented many elements of his new federal program, a church-based drug rehabilitation program argued that drug addiction was a sin, not a disease, and offered prayer and Bible reading as "treatment." (note, this is from an ACLU press release. I'm trying to verify it). Regards John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: GUEST Date: 29 Jan 01 - 06:24 PM I am responsible for the original post, I have found the responses interesting and some perplexing, I am not now and was not angry when I wrote that. Forboding, yes.Honest, yes. At times sarcastic in pointing out the absurdity, yes. But not angry. In fact my central theme was entirely Christian. I am not a malcontent ,but, I am a dissident and proud of it, Jesus Christ was a dissident too, as was Martin Luther King Jr.. I suspect most people who thought they heard anger were Republicans because of my less than flattering words about their leaders ,sorry. I forgive you. Some folks kindly offered advice that I should get out of the metropolis, thank you, but I live in N.Y. state not N.Y. city and I don't spend most of my time pondering the worlds troubles and internalizing them, I firmly believe Peter Tosh's words, from "Stop that TRain" - "some go east, some go west, some step aside and try there best", but, I don't think that should preclude having an intelligent discussion on this ugly social phenomenom. It is true that peace comes from with in , I said it to my boss the other day when she asked me why I was whistling on such a hectic day, But we are also all ONE, don't we owe it to ourselves and each other to look out for the darker forces of our psyches rising up and tearing up the place? As to the "We didn't start the fire" contigent , of course not, it has been and always will be smoldering, but every now and then , with greater and greater frequency ,it burns down the house. We are allegedly intelligent beings, why must we always repeat these cycles. All I was recommending was a few extra buckets of water now before it's too late, as an ounce of prevention. One criticisism I accept is that I shouldn't refer to people as RABID JERKS, they are rabid but in the interest of my own point I won't call many of them jerks anymore. As to those who defended Mr. Powell, He went on national T.V. and outlined the extreme force we will use if confronted with War? Roosevelt said " Speak softly, carry a big stick" he DID NOT say " AND WAVE IT AT YOUR NEIGHBORS THREATENINGLY, THOUGH YOU CURRENTLY HAVE NO QUALM WITH THEM." Please , That is not leadership that is ugly industrial military complex talk. One posting accurately went back and pointed out the longer chain; Waco, Oklahoma city, columbine, going postal..... I intentionally drew my examples from the very recent past because I think/fear it is nearing the boiling point. One point I didn't flesh out clearly- Art has always been the refuge of the dissident and the true moral compass of the culture. That is why I pointed to the likes of Puff Daddy or eminem in contrast with the Brittany 'nsyc st. boys. No Bob Dylan's here - Voilent hate mongers on oneside and shallow conformists on the other. Hostility and conformity taken together are a reciepe for disaster. Nazi Germany grew out of the War sanctions of their world war 1 loss, and the unresolved hostilities that led to WW1 in the first place. We however are enjoying an unprecedented period of prosperity and yet are slowlier heading down a less extreme but similiar road, What happens when the party is over? so now I reiterate, TRY BEING ESPECIALLY NICE TO EVERYBODY. ESPECIALLY THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE CONTRACTED RABIES. MAYBE IT CAN BE PREVENTED. One last thought, I think we should give Charston Heston a rifle and pit him against a tomahawk chopper, It will prove that the 2nd ammendment is useless, and it will be a pay-for-view blockbuster. We can take the proceeds and send Colin on an around the world trip to wave his stick at people till he finds some place that is getting as pissy as we are here and then we can go at it..Sorry had to piss of the P.C. folk sooner or later. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: katlaughing Date: 29 Jan 01 - 07:23 PM InOBU, Out of all things that have saddened and angered me since the transition of "power" in Washington, it is to hear your news of Peltier. I checked back and found the last story about the pardons, by the AP, was January 20th. In my haste for good outcome, I misread. He was in a list which they published as "notables which did not make the list." I willll do my next op/ed piece on this, for what good it might do, if any. In the meantime, here is the latest on it from www.indiancountry.com. This sure makes my heart sad. kat |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Troll Date: 29 Jan 01 - 09:38 PM Typical. Totally typical.GUEST, you rant and rave and point the finger and accuse and blame and then don't make any suggestions on how to improve the current mess. Well, none that are rational anyway. You remind me of the girl I saw at a rally after Kent State. It was one of those things where anyone could get up and speak and she stood up there on the podium and said," We've all got to do something and end this fucking war!" There was desultory applause and she sneered, "Well great! If that's how you feel about it!" and stalked off. No idea or plan of action or direction to move in. Just a grand statement that was supposed to galvanize everyone, make them socially aware, and end the war. Skeptic was there. He saw it too. So if you have some practical ideas that you'd like to share, great, We can use them. Otherwise, like I said, typical. troll |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 29 Jan 01 - 10:37 PM Guest, I recommend "The Folk Song Army" by Tom Lehrer. He says it less bluntly. Put in another context, you make (sincerely I think) a common mistake. "All we have to do is try hard enough and be nice to one another". I applaud the sentiment, but we all have to do a lot more. Most don't and won't. I'm sorry but your "being nice" sounds patronizing at best, hypocritical at worst. Simple solutions to complex problems end up not solving anything. Consider that Christ healed the sick...and drove the moneylenders out of the Temple, too. Wasn't too nice about it either. Troll, Please be more careful. You are the disillusioned idealist who grew bitter. I'm the one who became cynical. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Troll Date: 30 Jan 01 - 12:01 AM Sorry. Didn't mean to encroach on your territory. One cynic in the neighborhood is enough. Bitter? Moi? troll |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: katlaughing Date: 30 Jan 01 - 12:08 AM This is great, getting both sides of the coin, in a back and forth of wisdom and Truth...Troll & Skeptic you guys are scaring me! Seriously, there is so much good and truth in what you both have said. Thank you, very much. kat |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Lonesome EJ Date: 30 Jan 01 - 12:29 AM So the US sucked poor old Saddam in by telling him it was OK to invade Kuwait, just so we could play with all our new toys and kill a bunch of Iraqis. I never realized what an innocent victim the guy was. Give me a break. Actually, most of Clinton's White House exit strategy, including pardoning Rich (the billionaire who bilked thousands of people, then fled the country, while his wife pumped campaign contributions to Bill's campaign) has got Lil' George, despite my differences with much of his agenda, looking more like a breath of fresh air everyday. LEJ (Gore voter)
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: GUEST,Ribbit Date: 30 Jan 01 - 01:28 AM If Kuwait's chief export had been broccoli you can bet your sweet ass we wouldn't have been there. Ribbit |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:17 AM Ribbitt, You see, its comments like that that got the Republicans pissed off enough to buy George II the election. So I hope you're happy. Kat, As always, thanks for the kind words. I feel I have to warn you that if you encourage troll, he hangs around. Well, clings. Inflicts his presence ....whatever you call it ...... I tell you in all sincerity and honesty - This is not a good thing. Lonesome EJ, The US created Saddam in the sense that after the fall of the Shah, we wanted a strong military presence (friendly) to act as a counter balance to the Ayatollah. The US trained his officers, provided aid, support and weapons. Plus we made it fairly clear that we wanted him to be the strong man in the region. So you give a man a gun, train him to use it and then make noises that if he does, the world policemen wont do a whole lot, what can you expect. The blame the government shares is in totally mis-reading the character of the man. But they probably relied on the CIA which explains a lot. As for Saddam, he had all that army and ego with no place to go. troll, Or pretentious either. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Troll Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:55 AM Skeptic, kindly eshew pompous prolixity and obfuscatory rhetoric. yours in bonhomme, troll
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:59 AM troll, In the same spirit (with apologies to Sir W): That is the sort of errant pedantry up with which I shall not put. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: InOBU Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:33 AM At this point... "Troll, Please be more careful. You are the disillusioned idealist who grew bitter. I'm the one who became cynical. Regards,
John " |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Seth Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:40 AM I was in the U.S. for a month last summer, after a year in China. Then I returned to China to teach for another year. So what I get about the U.S. is mostly by way of the internet. When I was briefly in Seattle last summer, I was struck by the feelings of mistrust and hostilty that Americans appear to feel toward each other. Pumping gas in my car, buying items at a drug store, just traveling around urban areas. I didn't notice it so much living there for the past fifty-odd years, but when I came back I found it to be so noticeable. People are very jealous about their personal space, and for most Americans, this extends to their cars too. It's like a society of mammals develping exoskeletons. Here's a litttle China story that happened to me today. I was with my wife and daughter in the Old City of Luoyang, eating lunch, trying to find a violin to play. Walking down the muddy, crowded, noisy street, dodging the cabs and bikes coming from every direction. A man in his seventies came up to me, and told me that he had been a officer in the U.S. Army in Burma in the Second World War. We talked for a bit, and he invited us to his home for tea and to see some of his pictures. So we spent an hour or so talking and looking at his books, his letters from his friends in the U.S. and he made us some tea. His home was so small, and so bare. ONe room with concrete walls was what he had. He and I shared a drink of some holiday maitai, we took pictures, exchanged vitals, and all in all had a very lovely afternoon. Very nice man. Many CHinese feel a deep connection to the U.S. for being their allies during WW2, particularly people of his generation. Maybe he wanted something from me, I don't know, I just think he was being gracious. THis doesn't happen to me everyday here, but I do have a friendly interaction with someone every day. Chinese people are really good at showing affection, and at the kind of graciousness I enjoyed this afternoon. I guess it helps to have a culture that is 5000 years old and pretty homogenous. When I travel back to the states, I notice that Americans aren't real good at either one, and don't seem to be getting better as the gap between groups gets wider. What to do? I don't know. I like to get away from the culture of my homeland for a while. Seth from China |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: CamiSu Date: 30 Jan 01 - 09:53 AM Dunno Seth. I met a couple at the grocery store the other day, who'd just moved up from Pennsylvania, and when I told them where I lived, he commented that they loved that house. I fully expect them to stop by someday. As well, I get MANY visitors when the lambs are playing, and parents want their children to see them. It's not quite as open hearted here as you describe in China, but there is still a spirit of civility and goodwill in this small town. I have noticed a general loss of this civility in the bigger towns in general, but there is still plenty of it in specific. And despite the vagueness of GUEST's suggestion, smiles are catching, niceness can change a person's whole day, and if you get enough sparrows holding up the sky, it might buy us enough time to do the real healing work that is needed. Every day, several times a day, we have the choice to add to the problem, or do what we can to fight it. There was a comment on NPR this morning (in reference to people in California figuring they don't need to conserve energy because they are just one person) "No snowflake in an avalanche feels responsible" Doing my best in Vermont... CamiSu |
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