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U.S. growing more and more disturbing
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: DougR Date: 31 Jan 01 - 11:01 PM This is one time I agree wholeheartedly with Larry, Guest, go listen to Sorcha Dorcha. I heard their CD today, and it's a good listen. Those who seed rain clouds are the best customers for umbrellas. DougR |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 01 - 08:55 PM Midchuck and Greg - What you say about evolution would make perfect sense if evolution applied only to the physical being... It does not, however. I can make immense contributions to the human race without having any children, and so can anyone else. It's far more than a matter of genes or a matter of mere physical survival. Why play a game that one is guaranteed to lose? Because it's "the only game in town"? Well, it isn't, not by a long shot. Nobody ever truly dies, they just exit this little theatre of earthly experience and they continue evolving in another theatre, and another, and another... If we were mere machines, we would wear out and die. We're not. I know you probably don't believe that...but...what if??? I don't plan to stop evolving at the mere wretched span of 70 or so years. What a waste of potential that would be, and what a senseless endeavour as well. Like the guy said on that other thread (he was joking, but I like it...) "Give me immortality or give me death!" I know which one I choose. "Death" is a doorway into further life, regardless of whether you have children or not, and regardless of whether you have faith or not. You can't bow out of this universe. Just my opinion, of course... Whoa! Major thread creep! (Sigh!) - LH |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 31 Jan 01 - 06:49 PM More and more evolutionary theory seems to be finding that Darwin was only telling half the story. Cooperation, looks like the rule. (in the non-human animal kingdom, anyway) Look at dominance fights in herds. If they were about competition and survival of the fittest, then all those fights would be to the death (clean out the gene pool). Usually, the fight ends when one of the fighters proves they are dominant. Diversity in the gene pool preserved. They, in effect, cooperate to resolve the issue without killing. Radical idea, that. Survival of the Fittest logically leads to specialization and ultimately should produce a single version of a specific animal in an ecology Yet on the Galapagos, the same species of bird has developed multiple types of specialization to fit into the environment. The don't compete with each other. Each has their own niche and they share the environment. Examples abound, btw. Do a search on co-evolution as a start. Mrrzy, troll rarely means anything. When he seems to, its probably an accident. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Mrrzy Date: 31 Jan 01 - 12:45 PM Troll - did you mean bonhommie? |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Greg F. Date: 31 Jan 01 - 12:29 PM And evolution doesn't care, either! :-) Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Midchuck Date: 31 Jan 01 - 11:59 AM "Survival of the fittest" does make sense. But it only makes sense until you've had your children, and they're old enough to get along without you. Evolution is then through with you. Any additional lifespan you have after that is sheer bonus. I hate to admit it at my age, but I can't refute it. Note, also, that a brilliant and healthy person who decides not to have children is as much an evolutionary failure as the person who dies in childhood. He/she may make great contributions to society other than having children (hell, he may become Pope), but evolution doesn't know that. peter |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: mousethief Date: 31 Jan 01 - 11:55 AM Sorry; I thought we were talking about world war one, not world war two. I withdraw my statement. Alex |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 01 - 10:05 AM Interesting quotes above. I agree that competition is the main problem, when what we should be working on is cooperation. And there you have the essential disagreement between socialism and capitalism. The first is a community-oriented attitude, the latter is rugged individualism. Both have a useful application, and both should be encouraged, but the community is larger than the individual...therefore, the individual must surrender some freedom on behalf of the community, in everyone's interest. If you want to buy and sell goods and services, then capitalism works quite well...as long as it is regulated and kept within certain bounds. The regulating of capitalism is accomplished by socialist institutions...like governments, legislatures, and courts...and police, if it comes to that. Survival of the fittest is a pretty foolish philosophy...specially when you look at the fact that the fittest do NOT survive. John Wayne is just as dead as the little 98 pound weakling next door who never became famous. It's HOW you live while you're alive that counts...and that has nothing to do with survival of the fittest...quite to the contrary, it has to do with survival of everyone in the community through mutual assistance and cooperation. That's civilization. Curiously enough, that's what Jesus demonstrated in his life, but "Christian civilization" has very rarely taken his example to heart. - LH |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Jim the Bart Date: 31 Jan 01 - 10:00 AM OK. I was wrong. I was listening to a discussion of the Gulf War on the radio "way back then" and heard someone assert what I stated about the origins of Kuwait. Rather than checking the facts, I took it at face value and have carried bad information around for lo these ten years. Thanks for pointing out my error, Alex. And for doing a little research rangeroger. I hate making misstatements like that. I did say "If I'm not mistaken" - but I was. After looking up the history of Kuwait in Brittanica.com, it appears the sultanate of Kuwait has been around for a long time. It was a British protectorate since the 30's. In the 60's Iraq tried to lay claim on the territory, but it didn't get away with it then; this must have been the territorial claim to which the guy I heard "way back when" referred, and on which Saddam based his assault. Sorry for not checking before speaking. Next time I'll stick to spewing opinion and leave the facts for those what know better (hee-hee). Skeptic - thanks. It always helps to have someone say that; it seems we are often more likely to post when we don't agree with something. Enjopy the day, all Bart |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 01 - 08:39 AM Life is a tragedy for those who feel, and a comedy for those who think. -- Jean de la Bruyere I would never lie. I willingly participated in a campaign of misinformation. -- David Duchovney (Fox Mulder) Mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to extinction. Let us pray we choose correctly. -- Woody Allen War should be the only study of a prince. He should consider peace only as a breathing-time, which gives him leisure to contrive, and furnishes as ability to execute, military plans. -- Niccolo Machiavelli Before you kill something make sure you have something better to replace it with.... -- Charles Bukowski |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: rangeroger Date: 31 Jan 01 - 02:33 AM Sorry,that's World Atlas. rr |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: rangeroger Date: 31 Jan 01 - 02:21 AM Bartholomew and mousethief, I have a 1937 Collier's Word Atlas and Gazetteer that shows both Iraq and Kuwait. rr |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:09 PM Bartholomew, I agree (for what that's worth. With apologies to that lovers of that foundation of competition, Social Darwinism: Competition appears to be a very human and mostly cultural idea. Looking at nature, cooperation is the rule and its been fairly well established (If you believe life evolved from the primal ooze) that symbiosis was probably how the first cell got started. Survival of the Fittest isn't well supported by observation. On its face, it's a little silly. How do you know the fittest survived? Because he survived. Duh! The theory would tend to lead (logically) to a less diverse population. The opposite is true. Many religions have cooperation as a primary tenet, no matter how hedged with "excepts". Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: mousethief Date: 30 Jan 01 - 05:49 PM Saying "the part of Iraq" (re. the creation of Kuwait) kind of begs the question, as there was no "Iraq" at the time. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Jim the Bart Date: 30 Jan 01 - 05:43 PM Just a couple of things that, I hope, add to the dialogue: If I'm not mistaken, Kuwait was created at the end of WWII by the allies. They essentially took the part of Iraq that had the oil and made it a separate country, creating a grateful, puppet state to supply the oil needs of the West, leaving the bulk of the country one step from impoverished. Saddam is and was a beast, but he is a beast with a point - he was trying to retrieve what was originally Iraq's. Yes, this country is getting a little meaner in spirit - but I still wouldn't want to live anywhere else (except maybe Canada). I have found as much freedom and joy in my life as I could ever wish for. I only lose sight of how lucky I am when I am forced to focus on "the elusive spondulick" as W.C. Fields put it (that's M-O-N-E-Y, folks). I am a lot nicer, a lot friendlier and a lot happier when I'm not hard pressed to keep the ends together. I think a lot of people are like that - caught up in the "pursuit of happiness". Or of college money for their kids (who really do deserve it). For some people these are extremely hard times (in spite of how high the NASDAQ goes). Worry is a natural source for ill temper. For some, greed defines their lives (even for some Democrats). It's easy to see why there are so many folks snarling, prowling around, protecting their turf. . . I am not a communist; as I have said before I am a socialist. But I have to ask the "free market capitalists" one thing: Should it surprise anyone who believes that COMPETITION is the best source of MOTIVATION, that people raised in this environment are aggressive and nasty? It doesn't really have to be that way you know. COOPERATION does work. And there really is plenty for everyone. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Bill D Date: 30 Jan 01 - 05:09 PM that American ambassador 'said' that she was highly embarrassed that she had not been clearer to Saddam, that she never dreamed he would take a statement that the US didn't want to meddle in relations between Arab nations to mean a carte blanche for full-scale invasion. I have always wondered exactly who said, thought and meant what in that exchange...I simply don't know |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 30 Jan 01 - 02:58 PM Little Hawk, But an excellent summation (IMO) troll, *sigh* Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Jan 01 - 02:40 PM Lonesome EJ - Hi there, mate, as they say in various parts of the former British Empiah! Don't misunderstand me about Saddam. He is an extremely unsavory man, to say the least! What I mean about him getting sucked in is this: The USA was well aware (through their Iraqui ambassador, and their excellent espionage systems (including satellite observation) that Saddam was going to shortly invade Kuwait. Saddam asked the US ambassador if the USA would have a problem with that. She sent him back a reply that said, in effect, that disputes between Arab states were not of concern to the USA. In other words, she gave him the green light! Was that an accident? I doubt it. Saddam was enough of a sucker to fall for it, and he paid the price...to an extent. He is still in power, but has had his wings clipped severely. The whole thing was a farce. It could have been avoided simply by advising the Iraquis beforehand as to what might actually happen if they invaded Kuwait. What were the real reasons behind the Gulf War? I suspect there were several, but I can only speculate...and I'm not gonna bother listing them right now. And yes, there were a lot of innocent victims...100,000 or more dead Iraquis, a whole lot of dead Kurds (who were encouraged to rise up against Saddam by the USA...and then fairly much left on their own to be pulverized)...and, oh yes, a paltry number of coalition personnel who got mostly killed by friendly fire...and a bunch of Kuwaitis...and a lot of Gulf War veterans who got poisoned by various chemicals, radiation, and so on. Add to that the hundreds of thousands of civilians whose health and general life has been damaged by sanctions against Iraq since the war. Saddam? He's doing fine, I hear...he still rules with an iron hand and eats like a king. What a mess. Of course wars always are a bloody mess, but that one could have so easily been avoided. And don't forget that prior to that one the USA backed Saddam in an utterly hideous and lengthy war against Iran. That was another war that could have been avoided (by not arming Saddam in the first place), and it was launched with the intention of punishing Iran for the Iran hostage crisis, and if possible destroying the Iranian regime completely. It failed in the latter objective, just as the Gulf War failed to dislodge Saddam...who was being touted at the time as the next "Hitler" by the American press (as if!). We just had to get rid of him, didn't we, in order to save the world! Phooey. Propaganda, lies, and more lies. They also fabricated a totally false story about Iraqui soldiers turning off babies' incubators in a Kuwaiti hospital and thus killing them. Wow! What a propagandist's dream that one was. Despite being completely untrue, it did succeed in turning public opinion in the USA in support of the war, and it even fooled Amnesty International. Brilliant! Hitler and Goebbels would have been very impressed by that little effort. I think even Joe Stalin would have been impressed. Saddam is just a former hired gun of the USA who got too big for his britches, and outlived his usefullness...kind of like Manuel Noriega and so many other nasty little dictators. So they slapped him on the wrist, and his people paid the price. - LH p.s. This is not the whole truth, of course. There is no way any of us could possibly be well-informed enough or long-winded enough to manage to express that, no matter how hard we tried. It is simply a part of the truth, from a certain perspective, and I know that. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Troll Date: 30 Jan 01 - 01:57 PM And I bear no malice toward Skeptic. Pity perhaps, but no malice. troll **gotcha!!!*** |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 30 Jan 01 - 10:59 AM Larry, Your concern is deeply appreciated it. I've sent a PM which goes into more detail but let me assure you that if troll and I ever really go at it, what you seen here would count as polite conversation at high tea. While there are people I bear malice toward, troll isn't one of them. Regards, John
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: CamiSu Date: 30 Jan 01 - 09:53 AM Dunno Seth. I met a couple at the grocery store the other day, who'd just moved up from Pennsylvania, and when I told them where I lived, he commented that they loved that house. I fully expect them to stop by someday. As well, I get MANY visitors when the lambs are playing, and parents want their children to see them. It's not quite as open hearted here as you describe in China, but there is still a spirit of civility and goodwill in this small town. I have noticed a general loss of this civility in the bigger towns in general, but there is still plenty of it in specific. And despite the vagueness of GUEST's suggestion, smiles are catching, niceness can change a person's whole day, and if you get enough sparrows holding up the sky, it might buy us enough time to do the real healing work that is needed. Every day, several times a day, we have the choice to add to the problem, or do what we can to fight it. There was a comment on NPR this morning (in reference to people in California figuring they don't need to conserve energy because they are just one person) "No snowflake in an avalanche feels responsible" Doing my best in Vermont... CamiSu |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Seth Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:40 AM I was in the U.S. for a month last summer, after a year in China. Then I returned to China to teach for another year. So what I get about the U.S. is mostly by way of the internet. When I was briefly in Seattle last summer, I was struck by the feelings of mistrust and hostilty that Americans appear to feel toward each other. Pumping gas in my car, buying items at a drug store, just traveling around urban areas. I didn't notice it so much living there for the past fifty-odd years, but when I came back I found it to be so noticeable. People are very jealous about their personal space, and for most Americans, this extends to their cars too. It's like a society of mammals develping exoskeletons. Here's a litttle China story that happened to me today. I was with my wife and daughter in the Old City of Luoyang, eating lunch, trying to find a violin to play. Walking down the muddy, crowded, noisy street, dodging the cabs and bikes coming from every direction. A man in his seventies came up to me, and told me that he had been a officer in the U.S. Army in Burma in the Second World War. We talked for a bit, and he invited us to his home for tea and to see some of his pictures. So we spent an hour or so talking and looking at his books, his letters from his friends in the U.S. and he made us some tea. His home was so small, and so bare. ONe room with concrete walls was what he had. He and I shared a drink of some holiday maitai, we took pictures, exchanged vitals, and all in all had a very lovely afternoon. Very nice man. Many CHinese feel a deep connection to the U.S. for being their allies during WW2, particularly people of his generation. Maybe he wanted something from me, I don't know, I just think he was being gracious. THis doesn't happen to me everyday here, but I do have a friendly interaction with someone every day. Chinese people are really good at showing affection, and at the kind of graciousness I enjoyed this afternoon. I guess it helps to have a culture that is 5000 years old and pretty homogenous. When I travel back to the states, I notice that Americans aren't real good at either one, and don't seem to be getting better as the gap between groups gets wider. What to do? I don't know. I like to get away from the culture of my homeland for a while. Seth from China |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: InOBU Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:33 AM At this point... "Troll, Please be more careful. You are the disillusioned idealist who grew bitter. I'm the one who became cynical. Regards,
John " |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:59 AM troll, In the same spirit (with apologies to Sir W): That is the sort of errant pedantry up with which I shall not put. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Troll Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:55 AM Skeptic, kindly eshew pompous prolixity and obfuscatory rhetoric. yours in bonhomme, troll
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:17 AM Ribbitt, You see, its comments like that that got the Republicans pissed off enough to buy George II the election. So I hope you're happy. Kat, As always, thanks for the kind words. I feel I have to warn you that if you encourage troll, he hangs around. Well, clings. Inflicts his presence ....whatever you call it ...... I tell you in all sincerity and honesty - This is not a good thing. Lonesome EJ, The US created Saddam in the sense that after the fall of the Shah, we wanted a strong military presence (friendly) to act as a counter balance to the Ayatollah. The US trained his officers, provided aid, support and weapons. Plus we made it fairly clear that we wanted him to be the strong man in the region. So you give a man a gun, train him to use it and then make noises that if he does, the world policemen wont do a whole lot, what can you expect. The blame the government shares is in totally mis-reading the character of the man. But they probably relied on the CIA which explains a lot. As for Saddam, he had all that army and ego with no place to go. troll, Or pretentious either. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: GUEST,Ribbit Date: 30 Jan 01 - 01:28 AM If Kuwait's chief export had been broccoli you can bet your sweet ass we wouldn't have been there. Ribbit |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Lonesome EJ Date: 30 Jan 01 - 12:29 AM So the US sucked poor old Saddam in by telling him it was OK to invade Kuwait, just so we could play with all our new toys and kill a bunch of Iraqis. I never realized what an innocent victim the guy was. Give me a break. Actually, most of Clinton's White House exit strategy, including pardoning Rich (the billionaire who bilked thousands of people, then fled the country, while his wife pumped campaign contributions to Bill's campaign) has got Lil' George, despite my differences with much of his agenda, looking more like a breath of fresh air everyday. LEJ (Gore voter)
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: katlaughing Date: 30 Jan 01 - 12:08 AM This is great, getting both sides of the coin, in a back and forth of wisdom and Truth...Troll & Skeptic you guys are scaring me! Seriously, there is so much good and truth in what you both have said. Thank you, very much. kat |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Troll Date: 30 Jan 01 - 12:01 AM Sorry. Didn't mean to encroach on your territory. One cynic in the neighborhood is enough. Bitter? Moi? troll |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 29 Jan 01 - 10:37 PM Guest, I recommend "The Folk Song Army" by Tom Lehrer. He says it less bluntly. Put in another context, you make (sincerely I think) a common mistake. "All we have to do is try hard enough and be nice to one another". I applaud the sentiment, but we all have to do a lot more. Most don't and won't. I'm sorry but your "being nice" sounds patronizing at best, hypocritical at worst. Simple solutions to complex problems end up not solving anything. Consider that Christ healed the sick...and drove the moneylenders out of the Temple, too. Wasn't too nice about it either. Troll, Please be more careful. You are the disillusioned idealist who grew bitter. I'm the one who became cynical. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Troll Date: 29 Jan 01 - 09:38 PM Typical. Totally typical.GUEST, you rant and rave and point the finger and accuse and blame and then don't make any suggestions on how to improve the current mess. Well, none that are rational anyway. You remind me of the girl I saw at a rally after Kent State. It was one of those things where anyone could get up and speak and she stood up there on the podium and said," We've all got to do something and end this fucking war!" There was desultory applause and she sneered, "Well great! If that's how you feel about it!" and stalked off. No idea or plan of action or direction to move in. Just a grand statement that was supposed to galvanize everyone, make them socially aware, and end the war. Skeptic was there. He saw it too. So if you have some practical ideas that you'd like to share, great, We can use them. Otherwise, like I said, typical. troll |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: katlaughing Date: 29 Jan 01 - 07:23 PM InOBU, Out of all things that have saddened and angered me since the transition of "power" in Washington, it is to hear your news of Peltier. I checked back and found the last story about the pardons, by the AP, was January 20th. In my haste for good outcome, I misread. He was in a list which they published as "notables which did not make the list." I willll do my next op/ed piece on this, for what good it might do, if any. In the meantime, here is the latest on it from www.indiancountry.com. This sure makes my heart sad. kat |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: GUEST Date: 29 Jan 01 - 06:24 PM I am responsible for the original post, I have found the responses interesting and some perplexing, I am not now and was not angry when I wrote that. Forboding, yes.Honest, yes. At times sarcastic in pointing out the absurdity, yes. But not angry. In fact my central theme was entirely Christian. I am not a malcontent ,but, I am a dissident and proud of it, Jesus Christ was a dissident too, as was Martin Luther King Jr.. I suspect most people who thought they heard anger were Republicans because of my less than flattering words about their leaders ,sorry. I forgive you. Some folks kindly offered advice that I should get out of the metropolis, thank you, but I live in N.Y. state not N.Y. city and I don't spend most of my time pondering the worlds troubles and internalizing them, I firmly believe Peter Tosh's words, from "Stop that TRain" - "some go east, some go west, some step aside and try there best", but, I don't think that should preclude having an intelligent discussion on this ugly social phenomenom. It is true that peace comes from with in , I said it to my boss the other day when she asked me why I was whistling on such a hectic day, But we are also all ONE, don't we owe it to ourselves and each other to look out for the darker forces of our psyches rising up and tearing up the place? As to the "We didn't start the fire" contigent , of course not, it has been and always will be smoldering, but every now and then , with greater and greater frequency ,it burns down the house. We are allegedly intelligent beings, why must we always repeat these cycles. All I was recommending was a few extra buckets of water now before it's too late, as an ounce of prevention. One criticisism I accept is that I shouldn't refer to people as RABID JERKS, they are rabid but in the interest of my own point I won't call many of them jerks anymore. As to those who defended Mr. Powell, He went on national T.V. and outlined the extreme force we will use if confronted with War? Roosevelt said " Speak softly, carry a big stick" he DID NOT say " AND WAVE IT AT YOUR NEIGHBORS THREATENINGLY, THOUGH YOU CURRENTLY HAVE NO QUALM WITH THEM." Please , That is not leadership that is ugly industrial military complex talk. One posting accurately went back and pointed out the longer chain; Waco, Oklahoma city, columbine, going postal..... I intentionally drew my examples from the very recent past because I think/fear it is nearing the boiling point. One point I didn't flesh out clearly- Art has always been the refuge of the dissident and the true moral compass of the culture. That is why I pointed to the likes of Puff Daddy or eminem in contrast with the Brittany 'nsyc st. boys. No Bob Dylan's here - Voilent hate mongers on oneside and shallow conformists on the other. Hostility and conformity taken together are a reciepe for disaster. Nazi Germany grew out of the War sanctions of their world war 1 loss, and the unresolved hostilities that led to WW1 in the first place. We however are enjoying an unprecedented period of prosperity and yet are slowlier heading down a less extreme but similiar road, What happens when the party is over? so now I reiterate, TRY BEING ESPECIALLY NICE TO EVERYBODY. ESPECIALLY THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE CONTRACTED RABIES. MAYBE IT CAN BE PREVENTED. One last thought, I think we should give Charston Heston a rifle and pit him against a tomahawk chopper, It will prove that the 2nd ammendment is useless, and it will be a pay-for-view blockbuster. We can take the proceeds and send Colin on an around the world trip to wave his stick at people till he finds some place that is getting as pissy as we are here and then we can go at it..Sorry had to piss of the P.C. folk sooner or later. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 29 Jan 01 - 05:44 PM Some food for though about GWB's decision to involve religions and charities in providing services for the government. 1. Religious organizations enjoy many exemptions from civil rights laws. They are perfectly free to base hiring decision on their own religious beliefs. Using my tax dollars. 2. There are no indications of any requirements controlling provision of services. Religious organizations could give preferential treatment to certain groups. Or define treatment as follows: "In Texas, where then-Governor Bush implemented many elements of his new federal program, a church-based drug rehabilitation program argued that drug addiction was a sin, not a disease, and offered prayer and Bible reading as "treatment." (note, this is from an ACLU press release. I'm trying to verify it). Regards John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 29 Jan 01 - 05:13 PM troll, And what do we do when the resources aren't there to control anymore? Go peacefully into that good-night? LH is right in part. We created the monster and like the good doctor found we couldn't control it. When he attacked Kuwait, that was made clear. On a scale of 1 - 10, I'd rate protection of Kuwait's sovereignty at about a 4, Oil at a 9. I'm not sure how cynical the move was as leaders the world over have shown an amazing capacity for self-delusion. If was breaks out in the mid-east, given that there are at least two and maybe more nuclear powers in the area, it may all be a moot point. A few well placed air bursts and the residual radiation might make the oil unuseable or unattainable. Oh well, there's always Alaska. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: InOBU Date: 29 Jan 01 - 05:07 PM Hi Kat, I have gotten the word he didn't from a number of sources. We had a big demonstration to thank Clinton here in NY when it was anounced he would, then we waited and waited, and so if you have word he is out, and a good source PLEASE let us know. It is agonizing thinking of him still there. Larry |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 29 Jan 01 - 05:01 PM Bill D, Those who asspire or have power aren't worried as they can afford the technology, limited resources and all that to outlast the masses. And (IMO) you hit it. Short of developing a matter transmuter or cheap space travel, sustaining the current rate of resource consumption by the industrialized nations isn't possible. I think 40 years is generous. Without rethinking our basic value system, we're looking at shortages that can only be resolved by expansionism/imperilaism. There could probably be a whole thread on the tyranny of the credentialed experts. It truly takes rethinking our whole way of life, not carefully developed long range plans replete with graphs and charts that assume the future replicates the past. It just needs a little fine tuning. Everybody has buttons. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 01 - 04:10 PM Yeah, the Gulf War was a very cynical exercise. Saddam got suckered in by his former backers, since he wasn't needed anymore to beat up on Iran. And it was a GREAT testing ground for new weaponry. One thing to be happy about. Canada is still a very relaxed and peaceful society, relatively speaking. I invite any Americans to come up here and see for themselves. You will be most welcome here. Just don't all come at once, eh? (Grin) - LH |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Troll Date: 29 Jan 01 - 04:00 PM McGarth. Alliances between countries are ALWAYS based on the premise of quid pro quo. We defend Kuwaiti "independence", they sell us oil. No one with enough brain to keep their scalp inflated thinks otherwise. If they weren't sitting on top of a huge reserve of oil, Sadam would be in control right now and they know it. No war is altrustic. They are all fought to keep someone else from controling territory and therefore resources or to gain control of same. We no longer fight to directly control territory a'la Germany or Japan or England or the US in the days of westward expansion. Now we have alliances that protect our ecomonies. Why have to administer when you can control from the outside, or have mutual trade agreements. It's cheaper and easier in the long run. troll |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: katlaughing Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:59 PM Well said, BillD. InOBU, I had read, in our statewide paper that Clinton did pardon Peltier. Is that not true? |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: kimmers Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:56 PM John the Skeptic sez: "Even in my city (90,000), rudeness seems to be on the rise in the malls and on the road. People don't want diverse communities so more and more gated communities spring up everyday. Private schooling and home schooling cater (in part) to the same thing. The vision for future development is to turn the county into a wall-to-wall country club community. ( a serious proposal to the local Planning Board, btw). I guess those of us who don't make $100k plus a year can live in the neighboring counties." Oh, boy is this true. My community is a bit like this, though a bit bigger. Everyone new coming to town wants to live out in the suburbs in a new gated housing development so that they never have to see the poor people. I've met many, many people who are completely unaware of the level of poverty that actually exists in some neighborhoods in our town. They live in the suburbs, maybe commute downtown (one to a car... grr!) to work for the state, private-school their kids, and never see the run-down shacks. They never see my neighbor who talks to the streetlight when he gets off his meds, or his step-father who rides a bike several miles to work each day because he can't afford car insurance or even a working car. I guess I'm a little warped. I sort of like big cities, some of them. A big city can have a marvelous energy. I adore Vancouver BC and San Francisco. I live where I do because it's a great place to practice medicine and I have great partners, and we are well rooted where we are. But sometimes I get bored and restless, wishing for more excitement and challenge. For me, life in a small town or on a farm would make me a little crazy. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:56 PM Whatttt?????? - LH |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: SeanM Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:53 PM Sounds like Alligator Control is slipping up. Someone'd better wake up Dillinger and have him give 'em a poke. M |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: GUEST,Monashee Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:50 PM Come on people now..smile on your brother..everybody get together ..got to love one another right now~ Okay here is my two cents worth...I agree that tis the most peaceful living out in the countryside..(being a hick from the boonies myself). Speaking as one who does not live in the States...I have to say that there are are a lot of folks who view Dubya as a puppet who shouldn't be in power....but that is neither here nor there...There is a constant dance between the forces of nature.the ying and the yang..Humans all over the globe need to realize the destruction which we are inflicting upon our most beautiful planet...and upon our selves...All part of the cycle? Peace must come from within...it is in us all....I hope we can find it and all live together without the ever constant threat of war and the suffering and pain which is a part of every day existance for some.~ |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:11 PM Defence of your allies (Kuwait) Defence of your oil might be closer to the truth. (And that applies to the other countries involved at all. That was no altruistic war.) |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Bill D Date: 29 Jan 01 - 02:03 PM The sky does not HAVE to fall all at once to be a threat! Houses get dry-rot & termites which eat slowly, but surely...pollutants are not dumped into the rivers & oceans all at once.....all the trees are not cut down in one year....kids bands did not switch to mean, degrading, self-destructive lyrics overnight.....ghettos and slums were once new, well-maintained, happy neighborhoods......the highways did not become crowded, slow and full of rage instantly....... Those who do the math and SEE the statistics and measure the pollutants and the ozone and the topsoil and the trees and the fish and the sheer, growing MASSES of humans have been telling us for many years that there are a few problems...for 20-30 years now, they have been increasing the tone of the warnings........but.....like a frog in a pot of slowly heated water, we refuse to jump! And those who aspire to **POWER** simply hate to give us bad news , or even admit that it IS bad, else it might interfere with their short-term objectives.... So many people are unable to discriminate between uncomfortable symptoms, and real, basic problems, and the ones who can seldom run for office, or have any hopes of being elected. This planet will not support 85 trillion people doing what they are now...you know that....but you are unwilling to focus on where BELOW that obviously silly number that real safety and sustainable comfort would lie. ......and I don't have the 'credentials' to convince you on MY say-so, 'cause I'm just an old autoharp player and woodworker. But, if you are young enough, and are around 40-50 years from now, perhaps you will remember reading this post and say.."yeah, there was an old curmudgeon years ago that said something about these problems on a forum I usta read..." and, if over the next 40-50 years, many of the problems are alleviated and/or solved, you WILL be very aware of the sacrifices it took to do it!...Sometimes a LOT of a house has to be torn down and rebuilt to get the dry rot and termites out....... .....sorry...the tone of the "guest' question and some of the answers just pushed my buttons |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Grab Date: 29 Jan 01 - 01:05 PM Apologies Liberal, I'm probably wrong there - ah well. Grab. |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Kim C Date: 29 Jan 01 - 12:49 PM Yes John that is what I meant, and yes I did say, gee whiz, wish you had said something to me before... oh well... For a few minutes I made the choice to be mad, then I was done being mad so I made the choice to go get more coffee. :) I am not mad now although my widdle feewings are still a widdle hurt but I'll get over it. I do think too many people competing for the same resources causes us to be a little less sweet to one another. But I also don't think the sky is falling. KFC |
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Subject: RE: U.S. growing more and more disturbing From: Skeptic Date: 29 Jan 01 - 12:38 PM Little Hawk, I agree in spirit. We probably won't learn. Your litany reenforces that hindsight is always better than foresight. City Planning has been practiced for years, which is probably part of the problem. Capitalism demands growth. It is a necessary element of the system. Once we learn that all that bigger means is bigger, we'll go to some other economic system. The "bigger is better" myth pervades the culture. (That and most people seem to want the benefits of the "bigger"). IMO. As a culture (and not just in the US), we need to redefine our basic values and priorities, then build on that. If we truly value the family as one of our core values, then we do things that enhances the family. We haven't. The family is sacrificed to another value: Quantity over quality. We're stuck in the Calvinist maxim that dying with the most possessions proves you are one of the chosen. Kim, While I'm not a big fan of claiming that lab rat experiments relate directly to our society, studies of overcrowding in rate "utopias" (Plenty of everything except space), show that the lack of adequate space alone can cause all sorts of ugly behavior. The same may be true of people. We all need our personal space and our needs are more complex. It isn't just physical space. Its cell phones, beepers, wireless hand-helds, the internet, call waiting. That and the fear that the "bigger and more" (a core value) doesn't seem to be happening to a lot of people anymore. "It's easy to get mad when somebody makes you mad" IMO, being mad back is my decision. Being self programed, so to speak, the only "devil that made me do it', is inside me. Which is I think what you're saying. A friend brought up something that happened a year ago? A Scorpio maybe. We do hold grudges, you know. Hope you asked why they waited so long to bring it up. That seems to me to be the real issue. Regards, John |
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