Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 05:00 AM

Yes its hard to overstate the importance of this artist and his contribution to children's television under his alter ego of Windy Miller of Camberwick Green.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Smedley
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 04:48 AM

Given that it was set in Salford (renamed Weatherfield), 'Coronation Street' had a very Dirty Old Town feel in its early days - smoke coming out of chimneys, mucky doorsteps ans windowsills always neded cleaning.

As for Salford v. Manchester, I was taken on a tour of the 'border' by a Salfordian once but it was very confusing!

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 04:05 AM

Later, of course, he started the Steve Milli Band, very popular in Islington.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 03:31 AM

I too thought this Susan; in fact when I first saw The Spinners perform it around 1967 I'm sure that they also inferred the same.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:52 AM

Also you never saw him in the same room at the same time as the popular singer Ned Miller, who famously sang 'From a Jack to a King'.

Of his later career as a French footballer named Roger Miller, of that there is little question. However experts differ as to whether he was also working under the name Bob Miller and the Millermen in the BBC radio programme ....Parade of the Pops. On the face of it - not likely - but so rich in musical possibilities - how can we ignore this avenue of research?

The Miller name is the only clue we have as to these activities, and that's why its SO important to keep mentioning what Ewan's real name was.

A big thankyou to all who have strived with the culturally important work of keeping this tradition alive. One day your diligence and devotion, in a largely uncaring world, will reap its reward with a special mention in the Folkmusic 101 course.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 11:22 AM

So have I, Susan.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:57 AM

And when you tell people that he changed his name to Roger Miller and recorded King of the Road and England Swings like a Pendulum-doo - people simply won't believe you.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Peadar (formerly) of Portsmouth
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:20 PM

Actually, I've thought that as well Susan...but then I'm a bit twisted.

:-)

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:36 PM

Am I the only one?

Probably, Susan :-) Made me laugh anyway. There is a multiple meaning - IE Spring is like a girl or a girl springs from nowhere - But I never linked a third meaning. It will never be the same again...

DeG

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,susanc
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM

I always thought "Springs a girl on the street at night" referred to a prostitute. Am I the only one? Glad that it's settled that the town is Salford. I always thought it was Glasgow and a friend thought it was Dublin.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:24 AM

There's also The Old Dungarvan Oak recorded by Daniel O'Donnell, but originally written by Frank Hennessy as The Old Carmarthen Oak.

Long ago, broadsheet printers had the same urge to link songs to local places.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:20 AM

Indeed Mick, I assumed for many years that Fiddler's Green was an Irish song, but later learned that John Connolly is an English guy from Lincolnshire I believe, and as with Dirty Old Town, it's considered an Irish song by most back home

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: harmonic miner
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:15 AM

There are of course songs that were indeed 'traditional' and were never recorded or written down. Then someone does record/write them down and claims (legally in some cases) to be the author or at least copyright holder.

Not saying that's the case with Dirty Old Town but it has happenned a lot

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:28 PM

I was always under the impression that the song referred to Salford. Indeed, Wikipedia passes more than a passing hint to this:
Dirty Old Town

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 03:36 PM

I find it very unlikely that Salford council would have objected at that time, Dave, and even less likely that Ewan would have taken any notice! Still, it is one more theroy to throw in the pot :-)

D.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 03:02 PM

As in so many of these matters I am guided by The Spinners, who (on the recording I have, at least), sing 'Salford Wind'. The story I heard was that Salford City Council, mindful of the City's image, objected to this supposed 'slur' and MacColl changed it to 'smoky wind' which is what he himself sings on the semi-jazz version I have on his 'greatest hits' CD,
Sorry if this has been mentioned before in this thread.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

It was indeed, Raggy. Pendleton rather than Broughton.

I think it is a cracking version too, harmonic minor. Seems much more swing influenced than folkie and, given the era, I suspect that is how it was originaly inteded to sound.

Did I mention before, or has anyone ever noticed, that none of the lines rhyme btw - Anyone know if that was intentional as well?

Oh, and as to Ewan McColl wrote it about the Salford area whiich is a part of Manchester. Go and wash your mouth out with warer - preferably from the Irwell. Salford is much older than Manchester. The young upstart is now only more famous because it made it's money on the cotton trade and it has a famous football team that plays closer to Salford than Manchester and stole it's 'Red Devils' name from Salford RLFC :-)

Cheers

D.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,laszlo
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 02:34 PM

I first heard "Dirty Old Town" in the 60's, sung by the Spinners who were based in Liverpool but the singer (of this song) was Mick Groves who was from Manchester way. He sang "Salford wind", "Gasworks Croft"

Great song. What a character Ewan/Jimmy was? His life story would make a good movie. Who would play the lead role?

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 02:05 PM

I always thought that Hanky Park was demolished and replaced by Salford Precinct, some distance from Lower Broughton. My mate's family had an electrical business on Lower Broughton Road, not far from the cliff. My Mum taught at St James Infant School from about 1969 to 1990, some of you good people were probably taught by her

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 01:33 PM

Don't forget that other popular traditional Irish song, The Shores of Erin!

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: harmonic miner
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 09:11 AM

Re: songs being 'Irish' or not:

John Loesbergs books have a very apt title, "Folksongs and Ballads Popular In Ireland". They come from all over, but are 'popular in Ireland'

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1198194.Folksongs_Ballads_Popular_In_Ireland_Vol_1

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: harmonic miner
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 09:02 AM

Aha, so it's "by the gasworks CROFT"

I always sing it "by the gasworks CALL" (assuming th gasworks had a whistle or siren to call the workers.

It really annoys me when people sing "by the gasworks WALL". A very unimaginative way to rhyme with "factory wall" !

@David el Gnomo, I love that version on 'The Rough Guide to Scottish Folk', sung by the man himself. Must listen again for the "Croft" reference.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:57 AM

The Pogues are a London band anyway!

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Mick Woods
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:39 AM

I still maintain that "The Irish" don't claim to have composed these songs.

All three links that you have given Rob, credit fiddler's Green to John Connoly. The first link is to subpage on a UK website. Link 2 is to a website based in Austin Texas and in Link 3 Martin Dardis does say that he has gathered songs from around the world, especially from England, America and Germany which has a rich culture in folk songs"
With Fiddler's Green however it's easyto see how the non-Irish could assume it is Irish because:

John Connoly is an Irish name
The word Green in the title
The Dubliners sang it!

Or in the case of Dirty Old Town:

The Pogues sang it as well!

But as I said earlier these songs are now part of the Irish tradition ...

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,guest -jim younger
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:21 AM

'Dirty Old Town' seems influenced in its imagery by the opening pages of Walter Greenwood's novel 'Love on the Dole'. Put them side by side and see for yourself. A good example of intertextuality!

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:35 AM

Yes to concur Ewan McColl wrote it about the Salford area whiich is a part of Manchester. Though It often amuses me when journeying back home to ireland that most people there believe it's an Irish song about Dublin or Belfast, and indeed here in england many believe the same. A tribute I feel to McColl's skill of writing in the traditional Style
He illustrated this himself on radio in the 80's telling of how he wrote his song The Travelling People, by interviewing and recording Gypsies and Tinkers around the British Isles as research. Then after writing the song and recording it, took the recording around those same communities, and just about all said it was a trad Gypsy song passed down from generation to generation. As true a Folk Song as can be, written with the words of the people so they all felt it was their own

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:30 AM

This version by Tinker Duffy is sung in Sydney...


I scored my drugs - at the Bank Hotel
Saw a band at the Sandringham,
I snorted speed off a toilet seat
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown.

Dogs are crapping on the street
Queens are prowling on their beat,
Springs a dyke, on a motor bike
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown.

I had a wank, down at the Hub
Had a lash, at the Hellfire Club,
I played some tunes, at the Carlisle Pub
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown.

Gonna shave my head, gonna pierce my tongue,
Get a celtic cross - tatooed on my bum
Gonna shoot some smack, gonna dress in black,
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown,
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown...

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:25 AM

Mick, I appreciate the different traditions, and the fact that there's a lot more singing at normal gatherings, parties etc than you get in England, but the Irish definitely DO "claim" many of these songs...

Fiddler's Green Link 1

Fiddler's Green Link 2

Fiddler's Green Link 3

Just 3 links from many to "Fiddler's Green", for example, all claiming it as "Irish".

I was almost attacked by an Irish mando player in a pub recently who'd just played it and was very vocal about "I only ever play trad Irish tunes" when I pointed out that it was written by a bloke from Grimsby (Irish name but at least 4 generations born and raised there) who is still alive and performing. He simply wouldn't believe that it wasn't "Trad Irish" as he'd heard it so much over there, and seen it listed in Irish songbooks and websites.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:08 AM

I've read somewhere he sang it as 'Salford' in the original play, but changed it to be general afterwards... it was on t'internet, so it must be true!

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Mick Woods
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:07 AM

Rob. There is a great tradition alive in Ireland of singing these songs - not just by a tiny minority at small folk clubs, but in the mainstream pubs and at parties & family gatherings. The Irish don't "claim" these songs as many people suggest - they have kept them alive, as part of their own wonderful folk singing tradition.

My Dad was barred from a pub in Brixton in the 1960s for "singing" he couldn't understand why your average Brit thought that anybody who burst into song in a public was a nutter or something. Most folk clubs here unfortunately are in private back rooms. I enjoy sessions that are in the main bar, with mixture of people.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:06 AM

"Ewan wanted it to portray any industrial town? Maybe I dreamt it..."
No you didn't.
A personal rule for virtually all his own songs was "start at the specific and move to the general - that way you transfer it from a personal experience to one others can identify with".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 06:46 AM

It's also on a compilation I have called the best of Scottish folk! Sung by the man himself who distincly says smokey wind:-P Don't I remember having this dicussion not to long ago and someone posting that Peggy actualy says it is smokey because, although it was written about Salford, Ewan wanted it to portray any industrial town? Maybe I dreamt it...

D.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 06:19 AM

Along with "Fiddler's Green", "Black Velvet Band", "Who Knows Where The Time Goes", "Tom Paine", etc, etc!!!

In fact, anything ever covered by The Clancy Brothers, The Chieftains, The Dubliners or The Pogues automatically becomes "Trad. (Irish)"!!!

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 08:59 PM

Apparently it's a traditional Irish song...!! Hah!

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 08:47 PM

The Pogues also covered it: we once got asked to sing "that Pogues song" - "Dirty Old Town"!

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:02 PM

Yup, Tootler, that's what I always sing, too.

Chris Sugden (aka Sid Kipper) sings:
He sleeps down by the gasworks end
Takes his meals from a rubbish can
Dreams his dreams of scantilly clad blondes
Dirty old man
Dirty old man
Alas, he only ever collected the one verse...

;o)

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Tootler
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:04 PM

Good reason to sing the original smokey wind I guess then :-)

AFIK, the original was "Salford Wind". That was certainly how I first heard it when I was a student at the Royal College of Advanced Technology (which later became Salford University) in the mid 1960s

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:02 PM

I could never understand why the follow-up, - 'Filthy Old Village' never really took off in quite the same way.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 04:36 PM

"There is nothing left of the foul two up two down terraced slum area that Miller sings about."
Wonder if Robert Zimmerman will ever get round to recording it - or maybe he's too busy finishing off Under Milk Wood!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 04:22 PM

springs a girl - just another way of saying a girl suddenly appeared
(out of nowhere)

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

I've always been particularly fond of the imagery of 'Saw a train set the night on fire' - because I still remember the steam era from my childhood, and that's exactly how a steam train looked at night.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:17 PM

Rod Stewart covered this song on his An old raincoat will never let you down ,album,he sings "smelled the spring on the Salford wind,dirty old town ,dirty old town."

Good reason to sing the original smokey wind I guess then :-)

There is nothing left of the foul two up two down terraced slum area that Miller sings about.

I guess you have not been to Lower Broughton for a long time then, harleypaul. The two up, two down terraced slums, that were not really the 'Hanky Park' slums that everyone has in mind, are now the big Victorian houses in Higher and Lower Broughton, converted into seedy, tiny flats for students, East Europeans and Asians. It has not really changed.

DeG

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,harleypaul
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

Rod Stewart covered this song on his An old raincoat will never let you down ,album,he sings "smelled the spring on the Salford wind,dirty old town ,dirty old town."    I was born a hundred yards away from Jimmy Millers home in Coburg st ,Lower Broughton,Salford ,in Dalley st.There is nothing left of the foul two up two down terraced slum area that Miller sings about.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:32 PM

Though it's true that "Sweet Thames run softly" is a quote from Edmund Spenser, the most probable source of it, for this purpose, would have been from a 1940 and 1947 book of the same name, by Robert Gibbings, author of a series of small scale travel books with his own beautiful woodcut illustrations.
.........................

"I met my love by the gasworks croft fall" is not really a singable line, though Ewan coukd probabaly have got away with it. Better, "by the gasworks croft" - the rhyme scheme doesn't call for a rhyme there anyway. I can't remember how Ewan sang it, but if he did have the line used in Digital Tradition, I'd reckon he was playing games.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:59 PM

Well I stand corrected, and thanks...never saw the song written out, so one in this case hears the more familiar word (wall), I guess. It matters not to me; what it causes me to remember is the wonderful singing parties we used to have, back in 1952-53 (my year as a Fulbright student). We gathered in each other's flats- Ewan, Isla, Theo Bikel (he was playing in, "Love of Four Colonels" nearby), Alan Lomax, Peter Kennedy, Seamus Ennis, Bert Lloyd, Humphrey Littleton one night, Shirley Collins... what marvellous times! I have the tape made when the party was in our flat- and Louise Bennett was there, passing though town! Ewan and I had a friendly rivalry over ballads- he'd sing one, prefacing his performance by saying how Appalachians always took all the energy and drive out of the ballads- with a grin at me. I'd counter by singing something like, "False Sir John,"a lively one in which the lady turns the tables on her kidnapper by pushing HIM into the sea (his back is turned at her request while she removes her costly clothing- at his request). Much fun and laughter, despite the sad plight of Sir John.

Thanks for the memories.          Jean

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:09 AM

It's CROFT, I have a very early version of Ewan singing it plus a newer version and he always sang CROFT. In the Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook, croft is used and Peggy explains what it means.
eric

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:03 AM

I was born in Salford in 1954 and this song is without doubt the best, and most evocative of my childhood i too used to cycle past the "Gasometors" on liverpool street on my way to work on the Cresent overlooking the dirty river Irwell.. oh my i will have to go back and find my roots now being a soft southerner

I met my love by the gas works wall
Dreamed a dream by the old canal
Kissed a girl by the factory wall
Dirty old town
Dirty old town

Clouds a drifting across the moon
Cats a prowling on their beat
Spring's a girl in the street at night
Dirty old town
Dirty old town

Heard a siren from the docks
Saw a train set the night on fire
Smelled the spring on the smoky wind
Dirty old town
Dirty old town

I'm going to make me a good sharp axe
Shining steel tempered in the fire
Will chop you down like an old dead tree
Dirty old town
Dirty old town

I met my love by the gas works wall
Dreamed a dream by the old canal
Kissed a girl by the factory wall
Dirty old town
Dirty old town
Dirty old town
Dirty old town

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 01:35 AM

I'm sure the meaning of croft has come up in other threads. A small area of land. In Hastings there is a street called The Croft and the land on which the Scout Hut stands is known as the Scout-Croft. The area beneath a church is often called the undercroft.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Snuffy
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 07:33 PM

Gasworks croft
Factory wall

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 07:27 PM

How did the word, "croft" get into the song? It was, "wall," back in '52 when we (George & I) were going to London singing parties in that fleeting time when Ewan was sometimes Jimmy and sometimes Ewan. I remember Isla Cameron getting us tickets to a Theatre Workshop evening, and there was a modern-dance interpretion of the song. It began, "I met my love by the gasworks wall,
       Dreamed a dream by the old canal..." etc.
Also, isn't "croft" a word used in Scotland meaning a small farmhouse and its surrounding fields and buildings? Just curious.   Jean