Bloody Sunday (30 January 1972, Derry)

Subject: RE: Bloody Sunday
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Feb 01 - 07:48 PM

Everybody knows the war is over. And that's probably the only good thing we have going for us at this point is that the war is over.

Those aren't the words of someone who wanted to keep the war going. As I understand Bernie's position it's that what should have happened would have been a ceasefire declared by the IRA, but not a deal that includes an involvement in a devolved government, acceptance of the Union, and an abandonment of the position that there is one Ireland, and it includes all of Ulster.

I remember an article by Bernie a couple of years before the ceasefire in which she suggested that the best solution for the troubles would be a reunited Ulster, independent of London and Dublin. Such a statelet would have as many Protestants as Catholics, and there would be all, kinds of practical economic advantages in terms of natural links across what has so long been an arbitrary and unnatural border that virtually turns Donegal into a separate island. In fact you could say she's one of the few real Ulster Unionists around (as opposed to that lot who want to keep the rump of Uklster attached to England, and use that name, with no historical or geographical justification.)

I quote that to indicate how you can't sum up her thinking as just kneejerk unthinking traditional Republicanism. Whether one agrees with her or not, it's a lot more complicated than that.

Subject: RE: Bloody Sunday
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Feb 01 - 03:41 AM

'British Mainland' (Never: English Mainland) has been in use since ages among cartographers as a name for the largest island in that group of islands west of the European mainland (I hasten to add that the use of 'mainland' for Europe doesn't imply any possession of these isles by any part of Europe). The name for this island before that was 'Great Britain' since the times of the Romans ('Britannia major'), but this name was not considered a good name for there were too many confusions with the political entity 'Great Britain' which consisted of many more islands.

I'm curious: What is the PC name for that island (Britannia major) from the point of view of a North of Ireland nationalist.

By the way: The Isle of Man is not a part of the UK and to say that this island 'belongs' to Britain is considered an insult by some people from there.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Bloody Sunday
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Feb 01 - 06:48 AM

"Great Britain," Wolfgang. The sovereign state as recognised in international law and at the UN is the UK - which is the United (or not so united) Kingdom (well queendom to be precise) or Great Britain and Northern Ireland. "England" "Scotland" "Great Britain" are mere geographical entitities.

I don't think many would object to GB being described as the mainland in purely geographical contexts, much as for instance Spain and Portugal may be grouped together as the Iberian countries. But there's been a tendency by the "Protestaant Ascendancy" to use the term politically in a deliberately patronising way, or maybe I'm too sensitive.

I thought we'd got to the end of this thread. If we're nearly there now, I should just say thanks for some great posts from all sides. Yes, including yours Brendy - I've appreciated all those links.

Subject: RE: Bloody Sunday
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 01 - 07:02 AM

It all gets complicated with the names, Wolfgang. Strictly speaking there is no political entity "Great Britain" or even "Britain" for that matter.

No part of Ireland has ever been part of Great Britain, hence the term "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", or before that "Great Britain and Ireland". I don't think any native of Northern Ireland would describve themselves as a Brit, however Loyalist or Unionist they might be.

The term "Great Britain" refers to the big island, and its various attached smaller islands like the Isle of Wight and Anglesey and the Scottish ones, but never the Isle of Man, nor the Channel Islands, which in theory have no real link with the Westminster government, but only with the Crown, a bit like Canada etc,).

"Great Britain" is essentially a geographical rather than a political term, and means the same as Britain. I've always understood that the Romans just called it Brittania, and that the "Great" bit is to distinguish it from Brittany.