BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?

Subject: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Zebedee
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 05:57 PM

The vast majority of my posts here are in response to lyric/music requests. (my other posts tend to get taken wrongly and upset people)

Generally, I enjoy searching stuff out, and finding the answer, I wouldn't do it otherwise.

I like to think that I'm fairly competent at searching the web, but I do nothing beyond the grip of the averagely intelligent person.

What I don't understand is why people post requests here for obvious stuff, when using a search engine is a lot easier than posting a message here.

Any ideas?

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Rizla the Green
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 05:59 PM

I can never find a search engine.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: MMario
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:03 PM

Zeb - I often wonder the same thing. Just as I wonder why people are calling the Help Desk at work to tell me their computer isn't working when there is no power in their county. (It works over the phone lines, doesn't it? The phones are working...)

I can tell you that various people have different "patterns" they use when searching. My sister can get answers out of www.askjeeves.com. I guess I ask the questins incorrectly or something because I can't get a decent answer out of Jeeves to save my life. On the other hand, I have a knack of getting "hits" on google.com where my desired answer will be in the top ten.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:08 PM

I think people don't know HOW to use search engines well. It takes something of a knack. Like MMario says, the "knack" needed by various search engines is different. It's not something you're born knowing how to do.

If the first time you search, you get a bunch of garbage and none of it is helpful, knowing what words to add or delete from your search string to get what you really want is really a fairly advanced skill.

Like MM, I can't get a decent answer out of Jeeves, but I can usually find what I'm looking for fairly quickly on Google. Is this because I'm stupid? I would think my success on Google proves my inability to use Jeeves isn't a case of stupidity. It's a knack I haven't mastered. And some people don't master ANY of them, and give up in disgust, perhaps thinking something like, "I've tried those search engines. They're rubbish."

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: MMario
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:11 PM

Rizla may not be being sarcastic either. I've SEEN some browsers which make it next to imposible to get to a search engine (other then their own - which is usually a crippled, lame, poor excuse for a search engine in the first place)

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:43 PM

Well.. when I first started at Mudcat, about a year ago, I'd use the Search function, and come up with not much of any use. Now, though, I find all KINDS of stuff.

I think that what is searchable must be growing and that how searching is done must be evolving, because it's amazing what can be found. But see, if you don't know it's gotten better, you don't repeat what seemed to work so badly way back when.

But when someone TELLS me HOW they found something-- I feel more curious about going to go look for myself. Wouldn't it be great (for me) if you could easily post the series of steps that took you to the thing you found? And that would map your thought process on how and where to search, also? But you know as well as I do-- it is easier to just DO a thing than TEACH someone how to do it.

Also, though, and this is a BIG factor for me, and zillions of people like me (a googleplex!!!)-- despite having put a lot of time and money into equipping myself with a good computer, etc., right now for a variety of reasons I am on a 486, signed onto a cheap ISP that crawls, and going through phone lines that creep through slow local switches before they get out to the BIG WORLDWIDE WEB. And so it can take me hours to find out that I am NOT going to get my answer. That thread on Heroes of the Blues I started yesterday-- I spent a whole day waiting for pages to load, and such, and I am pretty good about figuring out how to move around things fast.

Now, unlike Zeb (*G*), I AM beyond the grip of most intelligences-- I am in fact very, very smart. But spend the day searching? I don't usually have time to wait out the equipment.

So if Zeb (I mean the whole of Mudcat search whizzes) can find something faster, and is willing, I accept that help while I learn what I can. I help too, in other ways.

See? Community. Doing our part. Giving what we can. As a gift-- minus resentment. See?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:18 PM

I think it takes a certain amount of knack, getting used to a search engine, understanding how it "thinks".....that kind of stuff. I too hate Jeeves and I'm pretty much hooked on Google. I notice that's a trend here. The iNBC is working for me a bit, but Google is my favorite.

I too get aggravated with the folks who ask questions that can be found VERY simply on Google, but what the hell.......That's kinda' why we're here too. Learning to search THIS site is something even a lot of members need to learn. Its not all that hard, but a lot of folks don't make use of the number of LINKS we have (not Quick Links).......We get guitar questions and the like that can be found out about in the Instrument Related section of the main LINKS pages.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: SeanM
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:33 PM

I think part of it on the 'cat may be a function of this from the homepage...

"And if you don't find what you're looking for in the Digitrad Lyric Database try posting a message to our Forum. Odds are your question will be answered within hours."

For someone without knowledge of the site, limited patience for searches, or who is just plain lazy, may seem easier to just come in to the forum, post a request for lyrics, and get the answer. I don't know... maybe when someone posts to the forum, they feel more 'connected' to the process than they would just browsing the DT.

Besides, sometimes requests for tunes that 'everyone knows' spawn discussions that prove to be enlightening.

On the whole, though... I do sometimes sympathize. I remember a patch where we went through about 8 requests for "Drunken Sailor" in two days... you'd think SOMEONE wouild notice the previously created thread at the top of the pile...

M

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:37 PM

Almost all of us "regulars" are pretty good at using computers - it feels very natural to us. Most of us have come to understand the logic of software design and the logic of search engines. There are still a lot of people out there who are just plain scared of computers, and they have the feeling they can't do anything unless they've been told how to do it step-by-step. They believe computers are too complicated for them, so they're afraid to take the risk involved in "thinking like a computer."

I think it's an interesting challenge to try to guide people into learning the thought processes involved in using a computer. I think it's similar to getting people to use a road map instead of relying on directions. Some people are just afraid to do it.

I tutored my ex-wife through nursing school. I'm not a nurse, but I'm a pretty good teacher. She drove me crazy, because she never wanted to learn the process behind things - she just wanted to memorize everything, and was afraid to enter into the thinking behind it. Maybe I did some good - she seems to be a pretty good nurse.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Sarah2
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:43 PM

It's since being here that I even know Google exists; I'm only now learning how to use it.

Nobody was born knowing this stuff.

I've picked up several tricks on how to find out things for myself in the threads here, sometimes just from a phrase someone tosses into the mix, sometimes from a link someone makes to an answer. Sometimes from the step-by-step instructions someone gives to answer an inquiry.

Lurking To Learn is part of the beauty of this place.

Sarah

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Burke
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:44 PM

I'm another who has had little success with Jeeves. It's always suggesting a question that's unrelated to what I want. But as a librarian I'm pretty good with the search engines but I don't like the way most of them work.

A fast tutorial is that your results depend on what's indexed, how it's indexed, and how your search is read, or the syntax of the search language. When I learned database searching long before the WWW, we used boolean & proximity operators to combing words & focus our searches. Now with weighting I find sometimes I have to cut back on my search terms.

Just as a example in a boolean scheme I can put in folk AND music - giving me something with both terms used. Using proximity I might use folk w2 music - giving me folk within 2 words of music.

In an internet search engine I can put in folk music and have no idea if it's doing a boolean 'and' or a phrase search. On top of that the weighted schemes will look for number of occurrance of your words. Unfortunately they can just total the occurrances of either word so a page with the word music used many times but folk once or not at all might end up higher on my search than something with the phrase. One experiment I've tried with some success is to put my phrase in quotes "folk music" It's trail & error as to if single or double quotes are needed & if it will work.

I could go on, but for searching mudcat get to know those @topic headings. That's the mudcat syntax to help you to types of songs instead of words in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Matt_R
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:46 PM

I always use Metacrawler. I boast that I can find anything! lol!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: John Hindsill
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:47 PM

I like Ike! Oops, wrong era. I like Metacrawler...it hardly ever lets me down. Dogpile is okay. I never (and I do mean never) have gotten satifactory results with Ask Jeeves; most times I quit because it was so frustrating..

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:00 PM

Besides, sometimes requests for tunes that 'everyone knows' spawn discussions that prove to be enlightening.

Precisely. Maybe sometimes people are just after the words, and they are being "lazy", but sometimes they're dipping their toe in the Mudcat, and seeing what response they get. Eithwer way they are performing a useful role by turning outr attention to particular songs.

There's always more to know about any song, it doesn't matter how often it's come up before - there are always new stories attached to it, stories about what it might mean, where it's been sung, how it's changed, anecdotes about what happened when it was sung by people on the Cat, or by people we might want to know more about. And any song can remind us of other songs.

A request for a song offers us the opportunity to share that kind of information, and join in the exchanges that arise. Maybe that's what the person posting the original request was after, maybe it wasn't, but so what? That kind of thing is what makes the Mudcat what it is, and personally, I like what it is - especially when it is doing that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: GUEST,khandu
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:04 PM

I use search engines for a lot of stuff.

However, there are things which I could find thru a search engine, but I come here. I like the personal response and input I get.

Also, I am lazy; hell, let someone else do the work! :-D

khandu

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:15 PM

when I found AltaVista 5+ years ago, I thought I had died and gone to heaven!..Since then I have discovered MANY new search engines with special functions and different algorithims....Joe hit it pretty close about some people just not WANTING to know the processes. I used to marvel at a friend who would NEVER use a phone book, but would tie up an operator on 411 trying to get them to do all the searching!

here is just one page devoted to HOW to search and what it all means...but you don't see these places unless you look around a bit...

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:21 PM

Joe Offer said:

"I tutored my ex-wife through nursing school. I'm not a nurse, but I'm a pretty good teacher. She drove me crazy, because she never wanted to learn the process behind things - she just wanted to memorize everything, and was afraid to enter into the thinking behind it. Maybe I did some good - she seems to be a pretty good nurse."

My Beautiful Wife asks me lots of things (I think that) she should know. But she complains that if she asks what time it is I'll explain to her how to build a wristwatch!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Skeptic
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:27 PM

I learned to do searches in the card catalogues and reference sections of libraries. Creative thinking was a big plus and it translated well. I don't think the same types of skills are being taught these days.

There are lots of specialized search engines. My favorite site is www.beaucoup.com. It has links to 2000+ engines, nicely set up too (imo)

This site: http://www.search-engine-index.co.uk/ has some nice links to specialized engines.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Burke
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:28 PM

Bill D, That is a wonderful site! Now I don't need to do so much guessing about how these search engines do their searching.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: IvanB
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 09:24 PM

I dunno. Usually when I have a question, I want the answer NOW, so it's easier for me to try a search first. If I can't find the answer in the DT or forum or through Google or metacrawler, then I'll ask. But the waiting for an answer is, to me, more upsetting than performing the search in the first place. I suppose varying comfort levels has a lot to do with it, as has already been well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 09:25 PM

great!...and Skeptics are pretty good, too.....

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Burke
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 09:32 PM

John, search strategies are being taught. It's just that if you're done with your formal education you have to teach yourself.

I enjoy searching when I have the time. Being in a college library I also have access to some resources that are not free. The lyr req answers usually come from free sites, but there's nothing quite like being able to look at the OED for definitions or OCLC for books & some recordings or sheet music information. If I really feel moved I'll even take a walk & look at a real reference book.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Skeptic
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 10:06 PM

Burke,

The OED. I am green with envy. You mean they still have book sin your library. How primitive. :-)

Being taught? At what level. My sister in-law went to a State sponsored program on using the internet in the class-room (middle school). I looked over the stuff on teaching kids how to search and it wasn't even up to the level of simplistic. She teaches ELP (gifted) and those kids know how to search. As she's not a guru (and the school has limited computer resources) she's taught them traditional research methods. The ones who've moved on the HS are whizzes at searching. It translates well.

Bill D,

Thanks. Searching is fun. Especially (as Burke says) when you have time to get sidetracked. Regards, John

The only problem I have with search engines is that they keep turning up things that contradict what I KNOW is right. Very frustrating. I think we need a search engine that will let you enter your own beliefs, values and so on, and only find stuff that reenforces what you already know. Makes life mush easier. Duller but easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Amergin
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 10:24 PM

I love copernic myself....and it's because of here that I found it at all....

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Burke
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 10:37 PM

I guess I was thinking of college students when it comes to teaching. The reference librarians all do course bibliographic instruction & it includes search strategies. The most important strategies possibly being clarifying the question & then to figure out the most appropriate tool for the task (the reason your site is so good) Since it's course related the students only get it if the prof requests it. The students are also really good at ignoring advice on how to narrow a search & instead print out hundreds of citations.

The web really is new & a new search engine comes along almost daily. It's really hard for the curriculum guides & such to keep up. Without good internet connetions it's hard for the teachers & librarians themselves to get up to speed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Extra Stout
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 02:04 AM

I don't know much about search engines. I never heard of Google 'till the other day. I've always thought the "information superhighway" was overrated because most people ignore the info thats waiting for them in libraries. My wife and children have been computer users for quite some time, but I never saw the need or felt the urge. Then one day, William Clay Ford spake unto the masses saying " Thou shalt be connected to the Internet, and to one another, and it shall be good " So the Company gave all the employees a computer. I would'nt have bought one on my own, so I'm still learning whats out there. I try not to take up your rescources with real stupid questions, but another reason is that its more fun to ask Mudcatters than Jeeves. Much better answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 04:05 AM

I use Google a lot at work but I also find Ixquick very good, rating results by relevance. Specialist subject gateways and dedicated sites like the Mudcat DT and Harry's Blues Lyrics get better results than general search engines.
RtS (well that's what I tell the students. "Lie with a straight face they don't know any better" that was always my secret!.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 04:15 AM

I don't know Ed but I guess we are all different. I am one of those who actually enjoys the challenge of searching for information. Google is my favourite search engine but I can't say I am an expert at using any of them.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 04:16 AM

I use search engines sucessfuly - mamma for worldwide general knowledge - ask.co.uk or yahoo for UK releated stuff. I like doing it. I will happily do it for anyone who asks. For free. Some people don't like to search so they ask the people who do. Simple as that.

I can plaster walls but don't like to - I ask a friend who does. I sometimes do them favours in return but not always. No-one seems to mind.

Isn't asking mudcat rather than searching a bit like that?

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 05:53 AM

Google is, for the moment, pretty unique as it uses page rank to weight its findings, i.e. all pages have a certain "value", and the more they are linked too by high value pages, the higher they will appear in the results list. This means you generally get "more important" pages first, but if you're looking for something obscure on a certain subject it can become a wee bit tedious. Also, when Google sends out its crawlers to gather information it saves the actual html of a page so that you'll get the information faster. A lot of search engines base their searches on just the first few lines of a page.
Altavista is perhaps the most comprehensive search engine, but it is definitely suffering due to competition from Google.
Google doesn't deal with pictures though, I don't think, so a search for images won't yield much useful info.
(p.s. I'm not addicted to search engines, I just did my MSc dissertation on them.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 08:12 AM

Any advice for a good search engine for images?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: MudGuard
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 08:16 AM

Rizla the Green,
it is quite easy to find a search engine.
Type "search engine" into the "search for" field of your search engine... ;-)
Sorry, I could not resist.
MudGuard

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 09:18 AM

GO.com has a button to return images only. I like Copernic too, but use google sometimes. It's easier to learn your way around in. Be warned, the Go page has a bright orange background.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 09:56 AM

McGrath, I've used The Clip Art Searcher (http://www.webplaces.com/search/) in the past for finding various gifs and pictures.

In general, I really enjoy specific searchers. My favorite is The Midi Searcher (musicrobot.com). Just recently (on Mudcat, of course) I heard about tabrobot.com and tabspider.com. Even if I don't find what I'm looking for with these searchers, they sure lead to some interesting pages.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: GUEST,bbc at work (elementary school librarian)
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 12:01 PM

I got stuck on Skeptic's comment on "book sin" & I'm spending my lunch time wondering what that would be. :)

I have some success doing image searches w/ AltaVista. I usually try there 1st & see what results I can get.

best from NY,

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: mousethief
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 12:03 PM

"Book Sin" = self-abuse while reading Portnoy's Complaint?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Bert
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 02:33 PM

Actually Ed there are two kinds of people.
1. There are folk who have just bought a computer and their friend told them about Mudcat and they've never used their computer for anything else since, so they don't know that search engines exist.
And 2. There are those that got to Mudcat by using a search engine in the first place and don't want to try using one again 'cos they're scared what else it might find.

Subject: Answering Lyrics Requests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 02:56 PM

There's another reason why people don't use search engines when they're looking for songs - they don't speak English very well, but they're venturing out into the Internet to find an English-language song. If a requester sounds abrupt, there's a good chance they don't know much English. Give 'em the benefit of the doubt.

I find that it's best to answer all song requests in a friendly, matter-of-fact, non-critical way (not that I always do it that way myself). It's probably also good not to be patronizing or to get too gushy in your efforts to welcome the people to Mudcat. You don't know the person who's posting the request, so you don't know how they'll react. Gushiness tends to make intelligent people gag. I've seen some renowned visitors get patronizing responses from Mudcatters who don't know their folk idols very well, and it makes me cringe.

If you're answering a song request, be sure you're not giving misleading information. For a while, we had a rash of answers that were sending requesters to OLGA and Cowpie and Google and all sorts of places - when we had the lyrics right here. If you direct people to go somewhere, make sure the information they want is actually there. If it's a pop song, maybe it's a good idea to just give a link to the lyrics if they're not here. If it's not here and it's something that a folk musician might like to perform, post the lyrics in the request thread so our search engines will pick it up. There's no need to start a new thread - just put the title of the song in the subject title of your message.

If a person leaves an e-mail address, note in your Forum response if you've e-mailed to them. I ususally give information on how I found the song, to help the person learn how to search - but if it isn't long, I also cut-paste the lyrics into my e-mail message (don't send attachments, because people worry about them carrying viruses).

If there's something wrong with the title of a request thread, don't be too quick to suggest that the poster start another thread, because multiple threads can confuse the rest of us. If you leave a message in the Help Forum, I'll see if I can rename the thread - but I try to preserve the original title of the thread as much as I can, so the requester can find it (Max and I and a couple of people at Onstagemedia have a thread-rename button - it's in the testing phase, so the JoeClones don't have it yet. My guess is that Bert can rename threads - he hasn't told me that, but his desk is 20 feet from Max's).

If you don't like the attitude of somebody who posts a song request, there's another alternative - don't answer them. Let somebody else deal with it.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 03:06 PM

there are a lot of good reasons given above but there's one that hasn't come up yet. Possibly, some people use the Forum because they like getting answers from real people. ;) (Thanks to you folks who've just added to my list of search engines to try out.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: MMario
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 03:19 PM

hee-hee! That joe-offer.exe program that Max whipped up really has them fooled, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: IanC
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 05:11 PM

Hi

I have a different question, but it's related to why I don't use search engines.

Mine is "Why don't people read the question?"

When I ask for a lyric, it's not usually because I can't find a version of a song - certainly not because I can't find it in DT. It's because I'm asking people if they've come across or know different versions or can help me with particular variants of a song.

In reply to this, I usually get 19 well-meaning and friendly suggestions repeating the version in DT or telling me to try the DT. Perhaps that's why some of the requests appear to be so simple.

Have you read the question?

Cheers
and thanks for all the help!
Ian

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 05:16 PM

You're right, Ian. Sometimes I miss the REAL question, and only realize it after I hit the submit button.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: MMario
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 05:18 PM

Depends on how the question is written.

If I see "Does anyone have the lyrics to 'X';
and 'X' is in the DT I will point them towards the DT.

Now if they actually mean "Does anyone have the lyrics to the version of 'X' sung by Myron Goldblat in the movie 'three virgins naked in the wind'?" it certainly helps if they say so.

Like wise, if the question is as I give in my first example above, it is not unreasonable to NOT realize that the actual question is "Does anyone have a bunch of different variants on this?"

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 05:23 PM

MMario!! YOU'VE GOT "Three Virgins in the Wind"?? (giggle giggle giggle)

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: MMario
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 05:29 PM

*sigh* If I'd got them, they wouldn't be virgins anymore, now would they?

oops! was that my out loud voice?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 05:59 PM

I suppose someday they'll have a search engine that provides answers with meat on them: "Here's what yiou asked for - but have you tried this, it's the one from that was derived; and here's a parody ..."

Remember, every unanswered question is an opportunity for each of us to rush in helpfully and fall arse over elbow, to the mighty enjoyment of our fellows. We need those questions.

Thanks Sorcha and Mary for those image finding links. Interesting stuff. Now what I really want is some way of just getting black and white drawings, because they are the ones that really work best for my purposes. I used to use Bewick prints a lot, and they are brilliant, but some slightly more modern equivalent is what I need. Most "clip art" is an abomination, but in amongst the rubbish there are jewels to be found. If only I could find a way of speeding up the process of finding it...

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 06:12 PM

McGrath, it's true that most Clip Art is crappy cartoon stuff, but if you only have black ink in your printer, anything you try to copy to print will print in black. Unfortunately, a lot of the images will not copy. Most of them will print from the site, even with just black ink. I have done a lot of that for Kate's school stuff. Why waste color cartridges?

MMario, you can just bet you don't get MY daughter to visit.........you pervert, you!! (grin) and where is my Countach, anyway? Sitting on a loading dock in Milan, probably!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: nutty
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 06:47 PM

you have to ask the right question to get the right answer - anything is easy when you know how
Trial and error has made me more proficient but possibly one reason people are reluctent to use search engines is the cost involved in doing so if you are not on a free ISP - as few people in the UK are - when you have hundreds of hits to trawl through.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 06:53 PM

Yes, but you can tell by looking at the title if it might be the thing you want. I do sympathize with the folks that don't have unlimited acess, tho. I understand that Internet is MUCH more expensive in Europe than in the US.

Learning just how to phrase your request is part of being a researcher, even using the 411/Information with the phone can be a challenge. And you're correct, you do have to know what to ask for, or how to re phrase it if your first request bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people use Search Engines?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 07:07 PM

I understand that Internet is MUCH more expensive in Europe than in the US.

Well, it all depends. I've got a server called ntl, and the deal includes pretty good unlimited free access, including free phone connection for the Internet number.