Help: Start of Folk Career: Guidance?

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: DebC
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 09:30 AM

Deciding on a career in folk music takes alot of commitment, serious decision-making and bollocks. You really have to be passionate about your music and be willing to make a lot of sacrifices for something that you love to do. It also takes a lot of support from the folks that love you and a commitment on their part as well.

My story is a long one, so I have cut it down for the sake of brevity.

I had been a part-timer for 25 years. In 1997 I took a leave of absence from my full-time teaching position and decided to INVESTIGATE the idea of making a career out of singing. I am NOT a singer/songwriter (although some folks erroneously assume that I am), but prefer to focus on traditional anglo-celtic song and some trad-based contemporary stuff.

I was very lucky to make the acquaintance of many established folk musicians in the last 15 years by hosting many of them in my home when they came through No. Calif on tour.

One of the first things I did was consult some of these folks and asked the very blunt question "Am I talented enough to make a go of it?" I let these folks know that feelings were not to be considered, I needed the honest truth before I took the plunge. The neat thing is that, every one of these people I asked said that they THOUGHT I might have the stuff that it takes. So I took a leave of absence from my job and began a folk music career.

It is now three years later, and I know I made the right decision. I am have just finished my first solo album called the Long Grey Line, I am beginning to get some veryt nice bookings in nice venues and my music is getting played on folk music radio shows. It is a slow process, but I have never been happier. The main thing that I have discovered is that I have to sing. It is who I am and the thing that I do best.

And English Jon, if you play like Carthy, get your bum over here to the States. I am looking for a guitar player.

Cheers, Debra

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: GUEST,Indy lass
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 02:08 PM

Richard--I'm just like you with the same questions. I'd like to find a group to play with. I try to get to a folkclub once a month (we play in a library conference room once a month for each other although we would like to have people come in just to listen), and i've played at a local bookstore in the past. I'm sure my performance would be greatly enhanced with other instruments. But joining a folk club in your area would be a start. Everyone is usually supportive and the experience of playing/performing will help your confidence.

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: GUEST,Richard Blair
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:31 PM

I'm one of those "dime-a-dozen" singer/guitarists, not that good, just really want to play. Strictly amateur, but just for the joy of performing. I haven't done much public playing since the seventies, and everything's a bit rusty. I have ideas of going to folk-clubs to listen a few times (size up the standard and the kind of music), then maybe put myself on the list on an open night.

I think I'd like to play as a member of a band (for mutual support, or a more varied sound). How to start?

Any ideas?

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:29 PM

Get a Day job, one where you don't have to work overtime or weekends. Do what everyone else has said, until your name is known as well as Martin Carthy's was about 30 years back. Then just keep doing it. Do it like Liz the Sqeak says, you could go a long way to meet a guy with Martins temperament and ability. The word I have heard twice this last weekend to describe the other sort is "High Maintainance" and neither of those acts will be booked again by the people who used the words. Oh Yes Good luck lad, I wish I had the talent and ability, the years would be OK too. JohnB

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:13 PM

The boy's got it BAD. Good for him!

I don't perform, but I know what I like, and what I like is a story. Or stories. That's why I like ballads. Carpe Diem indeed! "Break" whatever it is folk singers hope not to break! And keep us posted!

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: English Jon
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 04:22 AM

Many thanks everyone.

Maybe I am being to contemplative about the whole thing.

To preces:

Some information, not too much given out between songs, they can always ask me about them in the interval/afterwards.

Variety. I can throw in a few tunes on Fiddle or mandolin, the odd unnacompanied song, various melodeons, concertina and probably a little bit of Hurdy gurdy, although that's probably not ready to go in the act yet. Storytelling is a good idea, thanks Rev.

Politics/manners.I think I'm generaly pretty nice to other people in the field. I tend to like folkies - same interests etc, and I'm quite lucky in that I don't get pissed off that much myself, so I (hopefully) don't tend to piss too many other people off in return! I can't say anything about June Tabor, but I've certainly worked with a few prima donnas in my time...! You have to laugh.

Russ, Yes, If I wanted to be making a fortune, I'd be making pop records, but the English tradition is very important too me. I suppose these questions are about marketing in a way, it is part of the nature of folk music that each performance is to a degree an advert for the next.

I think Cowboypoet is right about making composite versions of songs, and having the freedom to modify the tunes if required. I tend to do this a bit anyway, although I have found some problems with linguistic development, I.E. Making a later verse sit well in an older version of a song etc. I suppose if you sing something often enough it tends to get honed down O.K.

You have all been very helpfull. Certainly, it's given me some things to think about.

"To thine own self be true" would seem to sum up a lot of it. Also Carpe Diem. O.K. Wish me luck!

Many thanks,

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 04:09 AM

Don't upset the little people... folk club goers want to see as good a performance as you would get at the 148th Fairport convention, or Sidmouth Area, or the Mariposa festival. Give everyone your best, whether it is the local festival or local Rest home for the terminaly bewildered.

And don't upset the circuit organisers either... one bad behaviour thing with one festival may lead you to being 'dropped' from the popular lists - see previous postings of mine re: June Tabor. In fact, keep modelling your behaviour on Martin - I've met and staged both, and believe me, Martin is a bloody sight easier to cope with than June. When asked what did he want on and backstage , all he wanted was a stool, some bottled water and a table for Norma's drink. June demanded the entire contents of the local vegetarian deli, a grand piano that wasn't the provided Steinway (philistine - her pianist was shite not the pianos he played.....), a 45 min sound check, despite turning up 1hr late, leaving only 30 mins to spare..... and that was before she got on stage!!!

Be nice to people on the way up, because you will meet them again, coming down.*BG*

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 03:59 AM

Hey Jon:
One word... Busk.
The best way to hone your tallent is to get direct input from the audience. Open the old case and see the tupence turn into pounds and you will know you are doing the right thing with a song. You anywhere near good busking grounds? Bath? Salsburry is not great money - but may provide you with a less challenging audience to work your way up to the big crowds in more touresty spots like Bath... if the throw rotten vegitables at you, make stew. It is all part of the learning process
Good luck, travel light and wear fast shoes...
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: Rev
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 03:34 AM

The only thing I can add to this discussion is if you're intent on going solo, providing your audience with variety is essential. Sometimes an evening of nothing but guitar accompanied songs gets a little old. Break up your show with a little storytelling, an a capella ballad or two (if you have the voice to pull that off), and if you have an aptitude for learning musical instruments learn to play something other than guitar. Pick up a mandolin or a banjo or a concertina, maybe a hurdy gurdy! There are so many wonderful "folk" instruments that audiences love to hear, and in my humble opinion singer/guitarists are a dime a dozen, but singer/guitarist/accordionist/mandolinist/fiddler/ukulele players are much harder to come by. I'm not suggesting being a musical dilettante (which is what I am) but you'll be amazed at how learning a second instrument can expand your repertoire, your potential audience, and the way you think about music. Best of luck to you!

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 06:21 PM

Play English and provide information. Also do some English harmony song (if you can find a ahrmony singer) Not enough people do it. That is ultimately bound to make it mre remunerative than being yet another mid-atlantic singer-sognwriter

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: GUEST,Willa
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 03:48 PM

Lots of good advice above. If you look for a "definitive" version of a song you'll usually find at least a dozen, so don't worry too much about getting the correct version. I recently heard a song I liked, bought the CD from the composer and learned it, only to hear him sing it in an amended version a few months later - he hadn't been happy with his first version. In any case, even if you learn a particular version, you'll almost certainly deliver it differently on different occasions. Sometimes I feel a song wants to go a different way from the way I'd planned. Hope that doesn't sound ridiculous; it's a fact. Best of luck with the career.

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 02:32 PM

First of all, you'll need to decide what "a folk career" means to you. Is it performing, or writing, or both? Does it mean that folk music is your sole source of income or simply your avocation?

Back in the 60's I started playing without any clear answer to those questions - all I knew was I WANTED TO PLAY! After finding myself in too many situations where playing had ceased to be fun or fulfilling (Holiday Inns, Wedding Receptions, Rock'n'roll bars, Country Lounges - yecch)I kept finding myself back in the same place asking the same questions you're asking now.

Whatever you do, don't ever do something for money that you wouldn't do for free. It's good to stretch yourself from time to time, but choose what your limits are. If you love what you do and do it to the best of your ability. . >
they still may hate you, but shag 'em if they can't take a joke. Now go play. Have fun. Stop with the questions already. . .

Hope we get to trade songs sometime.

Best of luck
Bart

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: cowboypoet
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:57 PM

Jon,

I've been performing off and on for the better part of three decades -- I began in the womb (o,-) -- so here are some observations based on my experience and my own slightly twisted view of life, music, and everything.

You say you suspect that you're "a lousy performer at the moment." If this is true, why do you want to do it? If you're just feeling obligated to be modest, try to get over it. I've heard a number of performers be self-effacing on stage, but not many of them got away with it. You have to believe that you're good enough that people will want to hear what you have to offer -- if you don't, that will come across. In a performer humility is essential, but modesty can be a downright handicap. If you're a good performer people will like to listen to you. If you're not, they won't. It *is* that simple. And there's only one way to find out.

Sometimes no introduction at all is best. Just play the song. When I *do* introduce a song I try to make the introduction part of the performance in some way. I don't do lectures, and I don't like to hear them. I do, however, always say to the audience that if anyone wants to know more about any song they've heard they can feel free to see me after the performance. A lot of people have, and I've been able to introduce them to some great songwriters, or at least satisfy their curiosity.

Do what works for you. Sounds trite, I know, but if you perform a song you don't particularly care about because you think you should -- perhaps because it's historically significant or appropriate to the venue or because someone requested it, your lack of enthusiasm will be the most noticeable thing about your delivery. And it'll be worse if you try to fake it. I've annoyed more than one person by flatly refusing to sing "Happy Birthday To You" because I *loathe* that song, and I'm sure it shows. I'm quite willing to dedicate a song I like to the celebrant, but that's as far as I'll go.

Muck about with the lyrics/tunes/arrangements as much as you like. The audience will tell you whether they like what you did. If *you* really like it, I'm betting they will.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and it can be very profitable -- just ask the house band at any Holiday Inn. However, if you want to "make it," especially as a solo performer, you must find your own voice. Take what you like from Martin Carthy and from anyone else you admire, but try to think about what you want to convey with each song -- maybe a change in phrasing or a slight (or major) modification of the lyrics will make the song say better what you want to say, and that's why you're up there. One sure-fire (for me, anyway) way to accomplish this is to try to find several versions of the same song and borrow shamelessly from all of them. If I sing a song I learned from a record by a favorite performer it's hard not to sound just like him or her in my head. If I put together pieces from two or three versions the song becomes mine and sounds like me.

To be brief (though it's *way* too late for that), just be yourself and you'll be fine, or you won't be invited back. Either result will tell you something you probably need to know.

I'll follow this thread with interest -- keep us posted on how you get along. And feel free to say, "I considered everything you suggested, decided to ignore all of it, and am having a grand time." Hey, it's free advice and worth every nickel. Good luck, and remember -- we're all in this together.

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:52 PM

Be yourself, and put the music and the songs first. You're just there to help it reach other people in a way that makes them listen to it and pass it on.

And I think doing that is what makes Martin Carthy tick. If you want to model yourself on him, that's what to concentrate on, not his guitar style, which is very secondary. (Brilliant, but secondary.)

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: Allan C.
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:23 PM

If I remember correctly, a young Art Thieme asked a similar question of Sandy Paton a good long time ago. Maybe Sandy will post his answer here.

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: selby
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:17 PM

I think the performer has to enjoy doing there set wether its to an audience of 2 or 2000. And the other thing is the ability to see when they are winning or losing the audience and adapt accordingly. Keith

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 12:52 PM

English Jon, you are being awfully cerebral about this. Input from others is good, but you are neglecting your most important source of information: yourself. Ask yourself, "When I am in the audience, what do I want to see and hear?" Then just do it. Also, your questions seem to be about good marketing. But if marketing and "success" are issues why bother with "folk" music. Finally, GO FOR IT. If you don't do it now, you never will.

Subject: RE: Help: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 05:21 AM

Jon,
I've played rarely in public (wasn't good and determined enough), so I can only respond you as a 'consumer'.
As for the repertoire play what you feel comfortable with, the listeners will feel that.
Same advice for the performance itself. There are great storytellers among the British performers, e.g. the McCalmans. If you do not feel comfortable with this style, the audience will feel it. The Corries or Brian McNeill also make you feel comfortable with a bit less of storytelling than the McCalmans. However, their styles would not survive a transplant to a different person.
I love hearing some information to the songs (most solo performers mainly do it for regaining the strength to sing), but I love it with variation (the Irishman Andy Irvine is a good example for that): Tell a personal story to one song (how you found it, why it means something to you, a remotely related story of a friend reminding you of this song), tell its historic background (who fought against whom in that battle; cultural background in 18th century England...), or just tell a single line like 'Now comes a love song, I like it a lot for no particular reason'. People like the variation. Whereas in liner notes, I love to find reliably the same information (Child number, alternative titles, old recordings, background, and all that) to each song, I'd be bored by this in a live performance. Play with your stories, tell different tales to the same song each time and listen to how they react. Listen to other performers when and how they make you laugh or think or be bored by a too long bit of teaching.
I remember one German folk group (Zupfgeigenhansel for those who know them) that made me want to run away by their elaborate information to each song. There was no variation, each time they told their audience the political background and why it was a 'progressive' song and how we should feel about it. It was too much of the same and too much like in school. I came back because I loved their music, but I stopped listening to their tales bwtween the songs.
Listen and experiment, experiment and listen.

All the best to you, but I hope I'll be able to see Martin Carthy at least once before you completely take over his job.

Wolfgang

Subject: Start of Folk Carreer: Guidance?
From: English Jon
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 04:11 AM

Following on from WYSIWYG's Moral/ethical thread. Kind of go me thinking.

Here I am, 26, armed with a Guitar, a lot of books and the complete recorded works of Martin Carthy. (Can also play other instruments) I play in a load of bands, but I'm trying to put together my "Solo Performance". Effectively, I want MC's job. This is a bloody stupid thing for a young man to want to devote his life to, but there you go. In many ways I am as thick as pigshit and stubborn as a mule.

Issues that are bothering me: Immitation=sincerest form of flattery and all that, but I do English Trad in a style based heavily on Sir Martin of Carthy OBE EPNS CGCDAB and Bar (28th fret). Don't want to become a clone. O.K. my style is subtly different, (tuningwise, I don't use a thumbpick etc) but it's currently too close. Especialy given that I'm researching the same area of music. How do I resolve this?

Repetoire? Unlike M.C. I tend to be narrowly "English" about what I play, simply because lots of people are serving other British traditions. Should I try to incorporate other cultures into the act? England is a melting pot in many ways. Or, should I stick to preserving English Trad. as a historical form? If it comes to that is this music fixed or mutable? If I muck about the words/tunes/arrangements am I affecting the fossil record? Opinions deperately needed, as head is about to explode (implode? probably more likely)

Performance:

What makes an enjoyable performer? I think that folk gigs should be fun, informative (or at least informed, not didactic) and as a performer, I think I need to be able to relate to the audience? Or do you prefer to see singers more remote/theatrical? Do you like long lectures on precise origins of songs, or should that sort of thing be reserved for sleevenotes?

Many many thanks for reading this waffle. All feedback would be appreciated, as I'm trying to get some sort of audience profile together. Also, I'm O.k. as a musician, but I suspect that I'm a lousy performer at the moment!

Many, many thanks,

Jon