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I'm not anti Irish.. honest

GUEST,John Hill 02 Feb 01 - 12:12 PM
Clinton Hammond 02 Feb 01 - 12:27 PM
Bert 02 Feb 01 - 12:28 PM
English Jon 02 Feb 01 - 12:29 PM
Fiolar 02 Feb 01 - 12:43 PM
sophocleese 02 Feb 01 - 01:04 PM
sophocleese 02 Feb 01 - 01:07 PM
Hobie 02 Feb 01 - 01:11 PM
Blackcatter 02 Feb 01 - 01:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Feb 01 - 01:22 PM
Biskit 02 Feb 01 - 01:28 PM
GUEST 02 Feb 01 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,John 02 Feb 01 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 02 Feb 01 - 02:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Feb 01 - 03:17 PM
pict 02 Feb 01 - 03:39 PM
radriano 02 Feb 01 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,surfin still 02 Feb 01 - 05:21 PM
Rick Fielding 02 Feb 01 - 06:00 PM
Dave Wynn 02 Feb 01 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,prof 02 Feb 01 - 07:45 PM
GUEST,prof 02 Feb 01 - 08:20 PM
GUEST,prof 02 Feb 01 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,petr 02 Feb 01 - 08:35 PM
GUEST,petr 02 Feb 01 - 08:35 PM
Dave Wynn 02 Feb 01 - 08:40 PM
Big Mick 02 Feb 01 - 08:49 PM
GUEST,surfin and laughing my ??? off 02 Feb 01 - 08:52 PM
sophocleese 02 Feb 01 - 08:55 PM
Dave Wynn 02 Feb 01 - 09:14 PM
Big Mick 02 Feb 01 - 10:30 PM
GUEST,parked for a bit... or a wee bit or a 'tad' 02 Feb 01 - 11:01 PM
Snuffy 03 Feb 01 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,John Hill 03 Feb 01 - 06:35 AM
GUEST,Ribbit (at work) 03 Feb 01 - 06:45 AM
Irish sergeant 03 Feb 01 - 10:03 AM
Big Mick 03 Feb 01 - 12:01 PM
carolee 03 Feb 01 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,colwyn dane 03 Feb 01 - 12:45 PM
Dave Wynn 03 Feb 01 - 05:40 PM
Irish sergeant 03 Feb 01 - 08:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 01 - 08:51 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 03 Feb 01 - 09:04 PM
pict 03 Feb 01 - 09:05 PM
GUEST,JTT 04 Feb 01 - 07:07 AM
GUEST,MacTattie 04 Feb 01 - 08:14 AM
Fiolar 04 Feb 01 - 10:16 AM
Dave Wynn 04 Feb 01 - 10:51 AM
Manitas 04 Feb 01 - 11:06 AM
GUEST,Brian Clancy 04 Feb 01 - 11:31 AM
Snuffy 04 Feb 01 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Brian Clancy 04 Feb 01 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Brian Clancy 04 Feb 01 - 11:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Feb 01 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Brian Clancy 04 Feb 01 - 01:44 PM
Irish sergeant 04 Feb 01 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,JTT 04 Feb 01 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,JTT 04 Feb 01 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,MacTattie 04 Feb 01 - 05:06 PM
Snuffy 04 Feb 01 - 06:23 PM
Snuffy 04 Feb 01 - 06:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Feb 01 - 07:36 PM
GUEST,JTT 05 Feb 01 - 03:26 AM
Grab 05 Feb 01 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,John Hill 05 Feb 01 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,John Hill 05 Feb 01 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,John Hill 05 Feb 01 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,John Hill 05 Feb 01 - 01:01 PM
Fiolar 05 Feb 01 - 02:44 PM
Manitas 05 Feb 01 - 03:55 PM
beachcomber 05 Feb 01 - 04:07 PM
Jimmy C 05 Feb 01 - 04:33 PM
Snuffy 05 Feb 01 - 07:54 PM
GUEST,John Hill 06 Feb 01 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,John Hill 06 Feb 01 - 01:02 PM
GUEST,John Hill 06 Feb 01 - 01:24 PM
Hansio 06 Feb 01 - 06:32 PM
Grab 06 Feb 01 - 07:07 PM
Big Mick 06 Feb 01 - 10:14 PM
Snuffy 07 Feb 01 - 05:09 AM
GUEST,Marc 07 Feb 01 - 08:48 AM
sophocleese 07 Feb 01 - 09:31 AM
sophocleese 07 Feb 01 - 09:34 AM
Marc 07 Feb 01 - 02:06 PM
John Routledge 07 Feb 01 - 02:12 PM
Wolfgang 07 Feb 01 - 02:19 PM
Brendy 07 Feb 01 - 11:00 PM
John Routledge 07 Feb 01 - 11:12 PM
GUEST,John Hill 08 Feb 01 - 05:28 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 08 Feb 01 - 06:38 AM
Marc 08 Feb 01 - 06:55 AM
beachcomber 08 Feb 01 - 04:15 PM
Big Mick 08 Feb 01 - 10:36 PM
GUEST,Marc 09 Feb 01 - 08:13 AM
Fiolar 09 Feb 01 - 08:44 AM
Snuffy 09 Feb 01 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Indy lass 09 Feb 01 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,BigDaddy 09 Feb 01 - 11:14 AM
GUEST 13 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM
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Subject: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 12:12 PM

Can anyone explain to me why books of "Irish Songs" are full of stuff not written in Ireland at all. And don't anyone give me the crap about "Well thy are popular in Ireland"... I'm sorry I don't buy that at all. Books of English songs are not full of stuff like "Freight train" or The wild rover .. or Over the Sea to Sky.. or Now Westling winds"
Examples of "Irish songs" are "The Shoals of Herring, Peggy Gordon, High Germany, Fiddler's Green, Rose of Allandale"... and hundreds more like this.
Even "From Clare to here, The Mountains of Mourne and Song for Ireland" are all English, not to mention the lyrics to "Danny Boy" ... (again English) which, if you actually bother to listen to is set in Scotland anyway .
(Stands back and waits for backlash)


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 12:27 PM

I was busking one day and was approached by a lovely old lady... she stood and listened to a few songs, mostly Canadian folk from the past 5 years or so... She stepped up to the case and while she was tossing in a few small bills asked me to play something Irish... Now I was gearing up to play Paddy's Green Shamrock Shore anyway, so I launched into it... She stood, listened, and applauded at the end... and was still there 2 or three songs later... She then asked me when I was gonna get to her request... I said that Paddy's Green had been for her, but I'd be happy to do more along that bent if she'd like... She said what she'd like is a REAL Irish song, not "that plastic paddy American crap" as she put it... I kinda chuckled and told her that she'd be more than welcome to suggest titles if she wanted... She started with "Whiskey In The Jar"...

But what the hell, I already had her money...

;-)


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Bert
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 12:28 PM

It's 'cos everyone in the world claims, or wants, to be part Irish.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: English Jon
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 12:29 PM

I'll Back you up on this. It's a bit silly, isn't it?

Having said that, Folk music/purity...not exactly hand in hand, nor should they be.

Someone should do a bit more research though... Anybody interested in English Fiddle tunes?

Best wishes

Jon and Jon's Cat


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Fiolar
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 12:43 PM

Try listening to the songs of people like Joe Heaney one of the great Irish sean-nos singers to get the real flavour of Irish songs. As for the comment that many "Irish" songs are in "English" has it crossed your tiny mind that many of the people who wrote the originals had to earn a living and like most people had to satisfy the mass audience of the day? Take Thomas Moore for example the author of "Moore's Melodies" which include such numbers as "The Minstrel Boy", "The Harp that Once", "The Meeting of the Waters" and many others. If he had written them in Irish which at the time was a language which was regarded as alien by the then government, how many would be available today? Don't forget such great groups such as Clannad, Annuna, The Chieftains - shall I go on?


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:04 PM

I'm afraid that the answer "Well they are popular in Ireland." Although not a good answer as far as you are concerned is probably the most correct. American and Canadian Folk Song books have a lot of songs that originated in different places on the other side of the Atlantic. Also a lot of them may get printed as Irish because people that don't know much of the history of the song associate them with Ireland, its a marketing game. I like to sing songs from all over the Britsh Isles but generally say that I sing songs from England and Scotland because otherwise people assume I sing a lot of Irish or "CeEtic" music which doesn't really do justice to the fact that I sing what I like wherever it comes from.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:07 PM

geez lots of goofs there. "Celtic" not "CeEtic". PLease add commas wherever they are needed.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Hobie
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:11 PM

I think it's a convience thing, when we as musicians try to explain to someone who doesn't really know what were about it's alot easier to say we do irish music than sit there and explain....well, it's hard to explain.

Hobie


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Blackcatter
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:21 PM

greetings all

It mostly comes back to two things: ignorance and marketing. Ignorance in that many of the compiler or the books as well an performers and fans don't know the origins of the songs (and to some extent don't care). Marketing in that the work Irish has been "hot" for close to a decade and anything connected with it will sell.

Once again it comes down to definition. John Hill, you seem to have a definition and seem to want to enforce it. But who says your definition is correct? How many songs written outside of Ireland were STILL written by Irish people? If an Irish person writes a song isn't it still Irish? Also, if I, an American with little or no Irish heritage write a song in a traditional Irish style and even write it about Ireland - isn't it Irish?

I discovered a while back that music and rules only mix occasionally and only when it makes people happy. If your upset about something - ignore it or try and spend time educating people about your opinions - I'm sure they'll appreciate a disertation morre than some songs . . .

pax yall


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:22 PM

No matter where they come from, if they get sung in Ireland people tend to assume they're Irish. And they're right. If you live in Ireland, you become Irish soon enough, and that goes for the songs as well.

The most useful collection of songs I know are the four Ossian Publications books "Folksongs and Ballads popular in Ireland". And one of the things that makes it so useful is that it doesn't set out to impose some kind of ethnic purity when it comes to the songs it includes, which would mean it excluded the ones you were after.

There's plenty of collections of traditional material as well. There's room for all sorts.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Biskit
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:28 PM

;)


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:47 PM

Could it be that groups such as the dubliners and dublin city ramblers or performers such as Paddy Reilly have recorded all those songs listed plus others of similar origin and simply by assosiation many regard them as Irish?


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 02:19 PM

That's the way I have seen it. Song's such as "The Garden Song", by an American, Dave Mallett have ended up in those little compilations because the likes of Makem and Clancy have recorded them. But it is a part of the folk process to borrow and assume as your own, songs from other cultures. I think Archie Fisher used a Basque melody for his "Dark Eyed Molly", but I'll always regard that song as being Scottish. Eric Bogle's"No Man's Land" is usually in those books as well. I always thought it was an Irish song because I became familiar with it in pubs in Ireland. Is it a Scottish song, or an Australian song because Bogle has a dual nationality? Mind you, I wouldn't mind a bit more research when they put those songbooks together. In the case of Mallett's song, they did not even attribute authorship to him, and said that the song had come over from America.

John


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 02:59 PM

I suspect a large part of the answer is that we Irish, for our sins, are the one English-speaking country which still retains a semi-oral tradition in that language. We take up these songs, knock them into shape and re-export them!

I'm reminded of being asked many years ago, by a very polite Englsishman, what the Irish did about the "Irish jokes" then very popular. "We tell them about Kerrymen.", sez I. "And what do the poor Kerrymen do?" sez our friend. "They put them in books and sell them to Englishmen!", sez I.

Regards

p.s. John: "The Mountains of Mourne"?


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 03:17 PM

Nothing I can see that implies that Danny Boy "is set in Scotland anyway" - I suppose it could be, since they've got pipes and glens there as well, and Highland Catholcs getting shot by the redcoats and all. But I can't see anything to indicate a Caledonian provenance.

Of course the classic example of a song that's become identified as Irish is the Wild Rover, collected in East Anglia.

I can't imagine asking songs for passports before I sang them.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: pict
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 03:39 PM

In my experience most people who aren't Scottish or Irish can't really tell the difference between the music of Ireland or Scotland and it's very understandable I have a Clare friend who very nearly came to blows with me over my assertation that Peggy Gordon was a Scottish song.The late great Seumas Ennis once learnt a tune from a Barra man about the children of Lir who were changed into swans for 900 years by Eva his second wife,several years later a group of Irish musicians were at the feis in Barra and one of them a piper played the tune,an old man said that it was a Barra tune but the Irishman refuted this and said he had learnt it from Seumas Ennis the old man then told that it was he himself that had taught the tune to Ennis by singing it to him.The story of the children of Lir is obviously Irish in origin but then again the Scots originally came from Antrim so was the tune brought to Scotland or did it originate there because of the shared tradition.The Irish are so good at marketing themselves that it is easy for foreign songs to be thought of as Irish they are famed for their musicality and deservedly so,often the Irish flavours added to a tune are so powerful they can obscure the origins of the music entirely.They may steal the silver but they always give it back polished.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: radriano
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 04:36 PM

I've often wondered about this myself, John. A lot of good points have already been made by others in this thread but I wonder if some of the publishers aren't being very careful about what they're doing sometimes.

However, there has been much interplay between Scotland, England, and Ireland - sometimes distictions are blurred with regard to songs and their origins. The popularity of an English or Scottish (or American) song in Ireland doesn't take away from its validity. It is true that the Irish can often popularize a song from somewhere else but do it in a very Irish style. Then others hearing the song think it's Irish.

But sometimes I wonder if I'm missing the point of it all. I was attending a song workshop in 1984 at the Willie Clancy Festival. One of the guest singers, an Irishman, introduced his song as being English. He sang the song in a very Irish style - it was beautiful. Later one of the people taking the workshop complained that "he didn't come all this way to hear English songs." But the Irish song tradition has been influenced by English & Scottish songs, and vice versa. What then does someone mean when they say "Irish song"? Does true Irish song only refer to Sean Nos singing? Is a song really Irish if it's sung in English?

I'd much rather just enjoy the tradition of singing which is influenced by a lot of factors. Wouldn't we miss out on a lot of good songs if we imposed strict criteria on what songs should be sung where and by whom?

By the way, John, Fiddler's Green was written by John Conelly, an Englishman, yet it's almost become an Irish song by popularity.

Richard


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,surfin still
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 05:21 PM

Oh well, the Irish are to blame and the Scots are not gettin off either LOL.

Seriously can any one tell me what if any difference there is - besides the accent - between an Irish, Scottish, English or Welsh or what ever, Smith ?

Now that I have raised the obvious question, ie the mingling of the races of Britian for over a 1000 years, what would the difference be if Conelly was born in Cardiff or Edinburgh or Dublin? None I suspect.

Being IRISH scot I know only too well all about the Football rivalry and such, can it be we are applying the same rules to Folk Music?

Sure there are songs with claimed National origins, but again what does that prove? I have written a few things and witnessed them being tore apart and rehashed into other weak songs by wannabe songwriters. So nothing can sway me toward a National origin most of the time since the writer could have taken the entire song from where ever.

Nor do I not buy the assertion that a Song is Xish because it was published in Xville in 1423 and 1/2.

The Derry Air, well so what. I am fair sure if I poked around in Piping circles I would find many a Theme that is similar and probably not even British at all as well as being at least 10 thousand years older LOL.

Lyrics and Irish folk bands, I sure do agree they know how to do em well. These stories about songs comming from Americas make me howl. It is like Jay Ungar and OCarrolan, his compositions are just variations etc, but Turloch probably variated what he heard. I guess that is all there is to it.

Antrim and the Scots, well I am learning something new everyday. I always thought the Scoti invaded Ireland first then a while later the Mainland.

Nah Pict I don't buy the Antrim bit, besides there are Mc Donalds AND Cambells all over the South of the Island.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 06:00 PM

John, the fastest way to clear out bar patrons from an "Irish bar" in Toronto would be to sing real Irish folk songs. No matter how unskillfully performed, they want to hear "Danny Boy" and "The Unicorn". Of all the fine contemporary Irish music written, only about 10 songs get their interest. Most of the Irish songbooks that I've seen which are COMMERCIALLY available, are generally pub repertoire in orientation.

Rick


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 06:18 PM

I take exception to your comment McGrath of Harlow "Highland Catholcs getting shot by the redcoats and all" another example of you getting it wrong. We shot any bloody thing that moved in the highland clearings...;-)

Spot.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,prof
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:45 PM


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,prof
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:20 PM

Don't forget that a lot of these tunes have been pinched from the Irish in the first place! -ie., I understand that most of the sea shanties were adapted from Irish jigs. Even Scotland the Brave has a gaelic title in Ireland! And the Irish have been creating music for an awfully long time: Gerald of Wales, who WAS anti-Irish, highly praised their music in the 1100's! The Irish have been behind much of the development of modern popular music(eg, Foster in the USA)and many of the members of British pop bands are of Irish descent(ie. the Beatles, Culture Club, Oasis, etc.).


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,prof
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:30 PM

Don't forget that a lot of these tunes have been pinched from the Irish in the first place! -ie., I understand that most of the sea shanties were adapted from Irish jigs. Even Scotland the Brave has a gaelic title in Ireland! And the Irish have been creating music for an awfully long time: Gerald of Wales, who WAS anti-Irish, highly praised their music in the 1100's! The Irish have been behind much of the development of modern popular music(eg, Foster in the USA)and many of the members of British pop bands are of Irish descent(ie. the Beatles, Culture Club, Oasis, etc.).


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:35 PM

I think that traditional Irish music has to include the American Irish music. People like O'Neill who collected many tunes & songs that otherwise would have been lost, or fiddle players such as Michael Coleman who inspired a generation of musicians in Ireland with his recordings. and others such as Ed Reavy who came from Cavan but settled in Philadelphia for most of his life and wrote many great fiddle tunes. Or for that matter Irish American fiddlers and composers like Liz Carroll. I certainly agree with all of those who say that the fastest way to clear an "Irish Bar" is to play real Irish tunes or sing real Irish songs. petr


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:35 PM

I think that traditional Irish music has to include the American Irish music. People like O'Neill who collected many tunes & songs that otherwise would have been lost, or fiddle players such as Michael Coleman who inspired a generation of musicians in Ireland with his recordings. and others such as Ed Reavy who came from Cavan but settled in Philadelphia for most of his life and wrote many great fiddle tunes. Or for that matter Irish American fiddlers and composers like Liz Carroll. I certainly agree with all of those who say that the fastest way to clear an "Irish Bar" is to play real Irish tunes or sing real Irish songs. petr


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:40 PM

Forgive the irony..But I bet that the very first musical note ever played in the universe could be traced back to Ireland.

Spot. Thinking ....


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:49 PM

Let me begin by saying that I have not read this whole thread, but I must ask the original poster what the point is? The Irish have been great borrowers of songs, tunes and musical instruments as long as there has been an Ireland. It is because of our Celtic and Bardic culture and its traditions. Doesn't take a genius to figure this out. Look at an Irish trad band today. It will usually have an "Irish" bouzouki. Our people borrowed this in the late 60's (I think I am right on the time frame?), changed the body style, added a course of strings and monkeyed with the tuning. Soon the Donal Lunny's of the world had adapted it to the tunes and made it our own. Guitar is used by most, but it is a second half of the twentieth century introduction as well. Most Irish singers sing Woody Guthrie songs, and the Chieftains will record in any number of traditions. Davey Spillane plays blues and jazz on the Uillean pipes like it was invented to do so. The point is that Irish tradition loves and honors good music, and will borrow it in an ongoing manner as long as there is Irish music being made by Irish musicians. It is because music is what makes us tick, and what allows us to tell the world who we are and how we see things. So I return to my orginal question. What is the point? The tone of the original post suggests that it irritates the poster. Sorry, my friend, but maybe you need to examine why you have ceili envy.

Mick


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,surfin and laughing my ??? off
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:52 PM

Hey Spot ...

Wufff...


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:55 PM

I am amused at all the angst about the intentions of the original poster. Would be people be wondering about his sanity if he had said he was wondering why books of English Folk Songs always had stuff from Scotland or Ireland? Its a legitimate question to wonder why songs that are known to have been written in country A are included in books of folksongs from country B. It seems that several people are reading more into the question than is actually there.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 09:14 PM

Guest Surfin and laughing etc etc.....I wish you wouldn't use language like that in front of the pups....Wufff indeed...disgustin'

Spot


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:30 PM

Well, Sophocleese, I will tell you why. It isn't about the question, it is about the tone. Here are two direct examples:And don't anyone give me the crap about "Well thy are.....and ....actually bother to listen to is set in Scotland anyway.... The poster then ends with a comment about the expected backlash. Posts like this are designed to get a rise. If a poster started with "I have noticed that the Irish seem to borrow a lot of tunes, and I have often wondered why?" or something that showed an interest in an answer instead of the reaction, then I would say that intellectual curiosity was in play. This type of post makes me believe that this is just a smartassed question from someone that has an axe to grind with the popularity of Irish music and culture.

Mick


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,parked for a bit... or a wee bit or a 'tad'
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:01 PM

Spot loves attention, doncha ...

The only thing you ever shot was pool, or darts

People who shoot b?????dy things or People are so sorry, they sit indoors all the time trying to forget or they get blindo all the time.

tell you what Spot

Chew a Bone


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 06:32 AM

A song qualifies to be Irish in the same way as soccer players do!


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 06:35 AM

The point isn't about the Irish borrowing songs.. we all do that. Its about marketing them as Irish. Most of the songs I have a main beef about are recent songs which are copyrighted and everyone knows who wrote them. I was just looking at a home page for Pete St. John. On it there is a "List of Some Irish Artistes who recorded Pete St John songs" ... these include James Last and Guy Mitchell.... I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,Ribbit (at work)
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 06:45 AM

As the Clancy Brothers once said "ya fellas want sides on everything" :) Ribbit


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 10:03 AM

Being American and trying to get my hands on as much Irish and Scottish traditional music as I can, I don't recollect specific incidents of english or Scottish music being marked as Irish. Yes, it has been included in books and Recordings "Banks of Sicily" and D-Day Dodgers" both by Hamish Henderson are good examples. In Fact "D-Day Dodgers" borrowed its tune from "Lili Marlene" by Norbert Schulz. You're losing the point if you're pissing and moaning about ethnicity of the music. We're all here because we love music. Period. Kindest Reguards, Neil


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 12:01 PM

Hey John, ...........read your last post...........I rest my case. ..............


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: carolee
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 12:43 PM

Who cares anyway? If the song's good, that is all that matters. Is a song written in Ireland by and Englishman, but using Irish 'idiom' Irish? Or one written in England by a second generation irish etc etc etc. It doesn't matter. Personally I love Irish songs. I love English songs. I love Scottish songs. I love Geordie songs. In fact I love any song that appeals to me. I know it is law, but I don't agree with copywright. Songs are about communicating and shouldn't have strings attached.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,colwyn dane
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 12:45 PM

Hi,

Cole Porter 'borrowed' sounds, styles and techniques from different parts of the world.
For some of his better known songs he mixed an exotic musical-brew.

The 'foundation' was Eastern music (DEI).
The French taught him to lighten his writing.
The Africans gave the basic beat.
The Italians supplied the value of pure melody.
The English - a warning not to speed up a tune for the sake of jazz.

"There's nothing new in the world except the music you don't know."
---Myself (with thanks to Harry S. Truman)---

Just my 2percent and roughly on topic [OjO].

Colwyn.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 05:40 PM

Hello GUEST..Parked for a bit..wee bit ..tad etc. etc. etc. etc.

It appears that I may have inadvertantly hit a nerve on one of my postings....Please sign in as a member and we can discus this. This way things may get aired and resolved.

On the other hand please let me know which nerve I hit. I hate drilling where there is no oil.....

Spot.(the Red Airdale) (spelling spelling...My greatest failure...)


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 08:12 PM

Spot; I enjoy your posts. Keep barking up the tree. Even if its the wrong one.;-)Kindest reguards, Neil


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 08:51 PM

Nah, I wasn't suggesting it was just Catholics got shot in times of trouble in Scotland, far from it.

But that line in Danny Boyabout saying an Ave rather implies it's Catholics involved. I thought I'd stick that in, in case anybody thought that fact might mean that the song had to be set in Ireland. Of course it doesn't, since there were always parts of the Highlands and Islands which stayed as Catholic as most parts of Ireland.

The Scots came from Ireland in late Roman times, and pushed the Picts (and the Romans) around, and the word itself is just another word for Irish I believe (would that be in Pictish?). But then were a whole bunch of other ones came across from the European mainland later, and somehow the Northern half of the Kingdom of Northumbria ended up as part of Scotland (with the Southern half becoming Geordies and suchlike).

The Scots are as mixed up "racially" as the English or the Irish - and all the better for it. And so is the music, thank God.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 09:04 PM

Rick hit the nail on the head when he put "commercial" in caps. Some publishers "pass off" songs as whatever they think will sell best. And, unlike Big Mick, I think that's worth a grumble.

If I bought a book of English songs and found it full of songs by Tom Paxton (who happens to spend a fair amount of time in England) I'd be a bit miffed - if only because I hadn't got what I was expecting. Likewise if I bought a book of Irish songs and found it had songs like "Shoals of Herring" (written by a Lancastrian who claimed to be Scottish) I'd be slightly annoyed. Beside me as I type, there is a copy of David Hammond's booklet, "Songs of Belfast." It's quite a shoddy effort in somes ways, but - lo and behold! - it contains exactly the sort of songs I'd expect from the title.

Fiolar, I think you misread the first post -language didn't come into it.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: pict
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 09:05 PM

Modern Scotland is made up mainly of Picts,Gaels,Britons,Angles and Norsemen with bits of Norman French,Flemish and Asian for an extra bit of flavour probably largest ingredients first.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 07:07 AM

The original poster is not altogether correct. Rose of Allendale is about Katherine O'Shea, Parnell's wife - Allendale is his house in Wicklow. Danny Boy is Irish. Mountains of Mourne was written by Percy French, who was Irish last time I looked.

Song for Ireland is a song about Ireland by someone called Phil Colclough - I've heard the song on the radio but don't know anything about it. Someone will know, I'm sure.

Peggy Gordon is certainly sung in Ireland as a traditional song; I don't know its provenance.

The Shoals of Herring is, of course, English, by Ewan McColl, and a great song it is too.

Fiddler's Green - don't know where it comes from but the phrasing certainly sounds English.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,MacTattie
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 08:14 AM

Dear guest JTT. The "Rose of Allendale" is a ship.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Fiolar
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 10:16 AM

Sorry fellows - but Allendale is in Northhumberland and is more than likely the place mentioned in the song, especially when you consider the words "When Mary left her highland home." To Guest, JTT - you probably mean Phil Coulter.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 10:51 AM

Mr McGrath of Harlow I read some facinating stuff about St Ninian (of Dumfries and Galloway fame) who setup a pilgrims route (the date escapes me but around 600 AD seems to ring bells). He travelled throughout Europe but established a route across the English (or possibly Scots then) mainland right into Ireland via Galloway paticularly the Isle of Whithorn (which isn't an Isle but a peninsular).

This became a kind of pilgrim and trade route bringing all the benefits of cross culture from Europe , mainland England / Scotland into Ireland and therefore BACK again. He became quite a famous person in his day. I capitalise BACK because with this route established as early as this date the intercouse in music and other culture like art and craft would have been arterial and duplex. This would make the determination of which belonged to who(m) difficult if not impossible from the resulting homogenous creation.

It could explain , in a little way , the noticable similarities in the North East English / South West Scots and Irish music and instruments in particular and then again reflected into European music in general.

Well....It facinated me....

Spot.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Manitas
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:06 AM

Fiolar wrote:

Guest, JTT - you probably mean Phil Coulter.

No, it's definitely Colclough. I met him once,I think he's from Essex and it is about a holiday he spent in Ireland.

I thought the Irish version of the Rose of Allendale was called the Rose of Aranmore?


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,Brian Clancy
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:31 AM

Well, at least this discussion validates what I tell audiences every night: "No, I'm not singin' Danny Boy for you, it's an English song. And the words are English in origin. But truthfully, I just don't want to sing it.

The fact is that there is much trading of songs between England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and even the U. S. I love reading Irish anthologies that show "All God's Creatures" as a 'traditional' song...mmm, do you think Bill Staines is miffed?

There are some great English fiddle tunes, we did Morpeth Rant on my latest CD, and yes, we billed the thing as Irish music.

The fact is that the Irish steal a lot of music from all over the world...it's their way of getting even for sending so much talent overseas. While U. S. musicians are falling over themselves trying to be Celtic (it makes money these days), if I was asked to play songs "just like I was in an Irish Pub", I'd be doing Garth Brooks and Shania Twain.

The biggest mistake critics or aficionados of Irish music make is that they fail to accept the fact that they are STILL making new Irish music, and it has a lot of country and US influence.

PS. Saying that Song for Ireland isn't really Irish is like saying The Star Spangled Banner was written by an English subject and is therefore an English song...


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:43 AM

Well the tune is English, maybe we'll allow that the words are American. So what does that make the whole song put together?

If ordinary folks (i.e. non-performers) know and sing any song, whether it started out in their own part of the world or somewhere else, then it is part of their tradition.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,Brian Clancy
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:43 AM

To the original poster of this thread who listed "Fiddler's Green" as a true Irish song:

The song was written by members of a great band called Schooner Fare...they are based in New England. But, yes, the song has been covered by darned near every Irish artist there is...


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,Brian Clancy
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:52 AM

What does that make the Star Spangled Banner?

It makes it a darned hard song to sing. And performers don't have any "edge" on this discussion. Anyone can like a song.

One last thing: Ralph McTell wrote both Streets of London and From Clare to Here. I get lots of requests for both of them in Irish Pubs. I'd say Streets is English and Clare is Irish--by subject. They both are FOLK songs.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:33 PM

If I bought a songbook called "Songs popular in the pubs of England" and it contained a few songs by Tom Paxton, I'd be agreeably surprised and pleased.

And I don't know about Schooner Fayre, they may be a great group - but if they don't have John Connolly as a member, they've got no claim to the Fiddlers Green he wrote (mind, there's another one in the DT, maybe they wrote that...), and I know he sees himself as English enough. (Mind, like Phil Colclough and Ralph McTell, I imagine he'd be eligible to play football for Ireland, for which you need a grandparent born in Ireland, as well as the ability to play football).


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,Brian Clancy
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 01:44 PM

Well let's settle this thread...

Why do "Irish Songbooks" contain non-Irish songs?

Because the editor told the author he needed twenty-six more tunes to fill the requirements and the poor fella went after anything he could so he could get paid and finish the thing.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 02:55 PM

Brian: Being a writer and having faced a deadline or two I can tell you, you're probably the closest to the mark with your last post. And yes, "The Star Spangled Banner" took the tune fron an English drinking song "To Ancreon in Heaven". The Confederate song "The Bonnie Blue Flag" Also took the tune of "The Irish Jaunting Car". Let's face it, good music just won't die. Isn't that why we perform? It's why I do around the campfire and I know it's why you do in clubs cafes and concerts. I know if I write a truly inspired sentance or lyric and more importantly, if I hear one. It's about the music and if it isn't no matter how rich you are, hang up the guitar or instrument of choice and take up the shovel. So what if Danny Boy is English? The fact is it is a great piece of music. Kindest reguards, Neil


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 03:29 PM

I didn't mean Phil Coulter - I took the name from some webpage the song was on. But if it's by Phil Coulter, he's Irish, from Derry.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 03:39 PM

And Rose of Aranmore is a different song; but Allendale is the name of Parnell's gaff, and is definitely taken here (in Ireland) as being about K O'Shea.

As for Danny Boy, the tune was collected by Lady Londonderry, who was (as it happens) an Irishwoman who wandered the hills of her estates and beyond collecting traditional Irish music at a time when it was in danger of being lost, and so it is called the Londonderry Air; I don't know exactly where the maudlin words come from, but as far as I know they are, unfortunately, of Irish origin.

As for the Irish stealing tunes, I'm actually not aware of any that have been stolen - though I'm certainly aware of tunes held in common between, for instance, Ireland and Poland.

Anyway, since this thread is a blatant attempt (quite successful, too - my compliments) at starting a flame war, I'll now bow out and retire from it.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,MacTattie
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 05:06 PM

Dear guest JTT, I'm shure the song you're thinking of is "Oh have you been to Allendale", which goes - Oh have you been to Allendale, and wandered in her lovely dale.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 06:23 PM

Parnells "Gaff" was Avondale not dale. And the song is "Have you been to Avondale." I can send you a photo of Avondale House if you want.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 06:42 PM

Oops, messed up the HTML there. Should have said:

Parnells "gaff" was Avondale not Allendale. And the song is "Have you been to Avondale." I can send you a photo of Avondale House if you want.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 07:36 PM

Big plug coming - but for a very nice guy. If you want to hear a contemporary Irish writers veiw on the subject get hold of any album by Anthony John Clarke one of my favourites.

Such classics as "Tuesday night is always karaoke" and "But then I'm Irish" dealing with this and many other topics in a unique and wry manner. The blokes a genius.

If you want more details check out his Web site

Enjoy

DtG


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 03:26 AM

Bowing back in for a moment - oh, of course you're right, Avondale. I sit corrected! Sorry.

Just looking at the Oxford book of "English" verse at the moment, by the way.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Grab
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:03 AM

Blame the Victorians and their marketing. Anyone writing music then had a simple rule for selling their songs successfully: if it's a jig, it's Irish; if it's a reel, it's Scottish.

Question is, does it stop being "Irish music" if it's written or played by an Englishman/American/four-eyed Martian? If so, does that mean that I can't say I play Delta blues bcos I've never been anywhere near the Missississississ(argh!)ippi?

Grab.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:20 PM

Danny Boy is one of over 100 songs composed to the same tune. The author was an English lawyer, Frederic Edward Weatherly (1848-1929), who was also a songwriter and radio entertainer. In 1910 he wrote the words and music for an unsuccessful song he called Danny Boy. In 1912 his sister-in-law in America sent him a tune called the Londonderry Air, which he had never heard before. He immediately noticed that the melody was perfectly fitted to his Danny Boy lyrics, and published a revised version of the song in 1913. As far as is known, Weatherly never set foot in Ireland.
The tune was not collected by Lady Londonderry.. as stated above... It was collected from a lady in Londonderry in I think 1863 .. which is hardly the same thing.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:26 PM

Danny Boy is one of over 100 songs composed to the same tune. The author was an English lawyer, Frederic Edward Weatherly (1848-1929), who was also a songwriter and radio entertainer. In 1910 he wrote the words and music for an unsuccessful song he called Danny Boy. In 1912 his sister-in-law in America sent him a tune called the Londonderry Air, which he had never heard before. He immediately noticed that the melody was perfectly fitted to his Danny Boy lyrics, and published a revised version of the song in 1913. As far as is known, Weatherly never set foot in Ireland.
The tune was not collected by Lady Londonderry.. as stated above... It was collected from a lady in Londonderry in I think 1863 .. which is hardly the same thing.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:33 PM

Thinks to Fionn. You are one of the only ones who has got my point. The buyers of these song book are not getting what they are paying for. In my book an "Irish song" has to be written by someone who is known to be Irish... or has to be Irish traditional... and accepted as such. The point someone made about "Song for Ireland" is just not valid. It is an English song about an Englishman's impression of Ireland whilst he was staying there.
High Germany is not a German song just because it mentions Germany... It too is English.... despite being in a book of "Irish Songs" I have.
I cannot accept that Forty shades of green by Johnny Cash is Irish... again in another book of "Irish songs". And as for James Last being an "Irish Artiste".. this really beggers belief.
As for the points some are trying to make about the origins of English/Scots/Irish going back 1500 or more years ... this really is silly when I'm generally talking about contemporary songs.... and the people we term as Irish nowadays.
Am I supposed to consider myself as German in this day and age... just because I have Saxon ancestry .. this line of argument is just daft.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 01:01 PM

The Rose of Allandale was written by Charles Jeffreys (1807-1865) who was English. To suggest that the song is anything to do with Charles Stuart Parnell and Katey O'Shea ... their famous affair was 1882-1889... years after Jeffries died is just plain rediculous. There are several copies of this popular broadside ballad in the Bodleian Libary that were printed in the early 1800's ... probably even before Parnell was born in 1846. (in Avondale not Allandale)


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Fiolar
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 02:44 PM

The title is "Allendale" not "Allandale"


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Manitas
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 03:55 PM

If the books were sold as 'songs sung in Ireland' there'd be no problem would there?


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: beachcomber
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 04:07 PM

Ok John, We do get the flaming point, even us Irish. There , you see, Rediculous, stupid , stubborn, ignorant though we all are.

By the way , you did'nt happen to have ann ancestor who wrote for PUNCH did you? The style seems vaguely familiar.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Jimmy C
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 04:33 PM

Commercialism is at fault, however, if I looked at the title of the book" Irish Songs" and then scanned the contents and found "Non-Irish" songs I would probably do one of two things. 1 - Buy the book and enjoy it or 2 - not buy the book. Commercialism affects everybody and everything. How many times have you noticed the title of a song being changed on a record or c.d. sleeve for example only to find that you already have the song on another C.D. under a different name. It's all geared to get you to buy the product.

BTW john, I suppose soccer is still an English game, just because it originated there ?. Tell that to the Brazilians, Italians and French. Is basketball a Canadian game because it was invented by a canadian? or an american game because it was invented by a canadian living in america?. Parts of this thread reeks of jealousy and a little bit of anti-irish feelings despite your disclaimer in the original posting.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 07:54 PM

Origins are not really important. "No Mans Land/Willie McBride/Green Fields of France" is (well on the way to being?) an Irish traditional song, just as the bouzouki is now a traditional Irish instrument. And so are many other songs from England, Scotland, America etc, even if they are no longer part of the living tradition in their homeland.

It's what people take to their hearts that counts, not where it came from. Who cares if the Black Velvet Band was originally set in Barking not Belfast or Tralee - it had almost died out in England but was given a new lease of life in Ireland and thanks to that it has now re-entered the English tradition too.

Folksong knows no boundaries and borders. It doesn't carry a label saying "made in England" or wherever. But it can be very interesting to trace back the origins of a song through various countries and centuries.

Wassail! V

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 12:55 PM

I'm beginning to despare now...The title is not Allendale its Allandale. See here for the original broadside printed in the early 1800's
http://bodley24.bodley.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/acwwweng/ballads/image.pl?ref=Harding+B+11(3325)&id=04236.gif&seq=1&size=1

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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 01:02 PM

There is a place called Allendale... but its in England. Allandale is in Scotland. "Since Mary left her highland home"...


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 01:24 PM

Snuffy... No man's land is popular all over the world... not just Ireland. For the Irish to claim ownership of its origin because its sung regularly there is just plain dishonest. It is not.. nor will it ever be a "traditonal" Irish song.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Hansio
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 06:32 PM

I wouldn't exactly say that that was true, but I do find it regrettable that with so many fine, authentic Irish traditional tunes from which to choose, people by & large are subjected to what that old lady so aptly called "That plastic paddy American crap"....an expression I plan to adopt immediately, in plenty of time for the Boston St. Paddy's onslaught of Ersatz Hibernianism!


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Grab
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 07:07 PM

John, the answer is two words long - it sells. Blame the marketing guys.

Grab.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 10:14 PM

I repeat..........John, I am sure you are a fine man with too much time on his hands. I accept your point..........but to ponder it to this length begs the question. What is it about the Irish that bothers you so badly that you would devote this much time to bitching about something like songs that they have appropriated? As if every culture hasn't done the same. If I felt like devoting the time to this inane subject, I would come up with about 200 examples of this. Ours is a culture which places its music, poets, artists et al, on a pedestal unlike almost any other culture in the world.

And Hasio, you either have the same problem, or you are an elitist. In either case, your post was an arrogant piece of work. I wonder if you go into Irish pubs in England and complain about plastic English paddy crap, or in Amsterdam the Dutch Plastic Paddy crap, or in Germany, the German plastic paddy crap. I have been in pubs in each of these countries and heard the same pub songs I have heard in the states. I have also been in pubs in Boston, and plenty of them, were some marvelous trad is being played. Come to one of our shows and you will certainly hear the standards. But you will also hear jigs, slip jigs, reels, some sean nos, and other "trad" stuff. It really bothers me when I hear the generalizations about yanks. To be sure there are plenty of the green beer drinking, pointed ear wearing Americans who don't know much about real trad Irish music. But the states also produces more than its share of world class step dancers, musicians of every stripe, pipers and some of the finest pipe builders in the world (Quinn Koehler come directly to mind). Groups like Altan play to sold out houses of "plastic American paddy's" everyplace they perform.

Purpose of the rant...................Lay off the stupid generalizations. They are not true, and they demonstrate that you are a shallow person.

Mick


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 05:09 AM

Trouble is, Mick, for the last few years the marketing people have been ruining perfectly good traditional English pubs and turning them into "Plastic Paddy" pubs, which bear as much resemblance to Ireland as the Pyramids do. Bar staff with emerald green waistcoats and bowlers (derbys?), Foster & Allan or Daniel O'Donnell on the PA, "traditional Irish" (microwave) food, etc.

So we're getting the worst of both worlds. But someone must be buying this crap, or they wouldn't spend millions on "improving" their pubs in this way. Having sat in real English pubs and Irish bars listening to real people doing their own traditional thing, this marketing shite really gets up my nose.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,Marc
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 08:48 AM

Some folks appear to be offended at the attempt to create contraversy. However they also appear to post fairly regularly. So maybe they're just as entertained by contraversy as am I. Some time the greatest amount of information is arrived at by said conflict. I thought the Anacreon society was infact a colonial past time, and not that large in England.

Marc Bernier


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: sophocleese
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 09:31 AM

Big Mick stop tilting at the straw windmills that you set up. I'm not reading any posts suggesting that only the Irish are likely to steal tunes. The answer to John's original question is that it sells, many people have stated this. Its not a pleasant answer but it doesn't attack the Irish, or those who love traditional Irish music. Has it perhaps started to cross that vast expanse of inert material some people refer to as your brain that your heated rebuttals to unstated assumptions simply because the word Irish is in this thread might account for a somewhat defensive tone? I don't think it is the psyche of someone who asks interesting and legitimate questions that needs to be examined but instead it is the person who gets his knickers in a twist over one word who needs some counselling.

A lot of the people who post to and read the mudcat are interested not just in lyrics and tunes but also in the history and variations of songs. Its neat to read about how a song travelled and see how different people have sung it. This question is a facet of that interest.

No Man's Land or Willie McBride may become a traditional Irish song if the name and nationality of the author are forgotten. Until then, however popular it is in Irish pubs, it is not an Irish song, it is an Eric Bogle song. Songs verifiably written and composed by people residing outside of Ireland, even if their grandfather's poodle's hairdresser's second wife's bosom buddy was one eighth Irish, are not Irish songs. They can be good or great songs composed in an Irish style and they may also be popular in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: sophocleese
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 09:34 AM

PS. How's that for a confrontational post GUEST Marc? Am I in the running?


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Marc
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 02:06 PM

That was beautiful sophocleese.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: John Routledge
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 02:12 PM

Snuffy - The Soccer World Cup has a lot to answer for.

Cheers!! Geordie Broon


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 02:19 PM

I could write two very different posts to this thread, a confrontational and a nonconfrontational. I start with the confrontational:

Some of the posters here don't read what they criticise with enough care and that doesn't help the discussion. Two prime examples are: Brian Clancy, who criticises John Hill for having claimed 'Fiddler's Green' being an Irish song, when in fact John has said explicitely the opposite; and Big Mick who jumps on Hansio and calls him (?) a shallow person for a completely unconfrontational post and doesn't even spell his name correctly. Now to the unconfrontational part.

I see two statements (of purported fact) in John Hill's argument and only one of them can be seen as a reproach:
(1) There are many non-Irish songs in Irish songbooks
(2) They Irish claim them as their songs.
I can hardly see how you can argue with the first claim. If I look at my shelf with English and Irish and Scottish songbooks I can only say this is true. (It is true, I think, as well for e.g. Australia and Newfoundland, but I do not know enough to be completely sure) Why? Perhaps for the same reason why you have a much higher probability to run into a music session in an Irish pub than in an English pub, i.e. Ireland is more open to music, even when it comes from some other place of the world.

I do not see much support for the second assertion. I have songbooks that state 'Irish songs' in the title (or 'songs from Ireland' or parts or Ireland) and they only have Irish songs in them (there are boundary cases everywhere). I see books that are titled 'Songs and ballads popular in the pubs of Ireland' and they for sure have songs among them that are not Irish. I only see one series of books that definitely lies in the title. That is Soodlum's '100 Irish songs' in at least two volumes complete with tape. Of course, they have 'Fiddler's Green' and the other usual suspects, but in each case I have looked at they explicitely state in the notes the author. In one case they even write correctly 'traditional English song' in the notes. You may think it is ironic to be confronted explicitely with a traditional English song in a book titled '100 Irish songs', but at least it's not a lie.

John (Hill), I do not have problems with foreign songs in a collection of songs popular in Ireland, I would have a lot of problems with calling songs trad. that aren't or claiming wrong provenience. However, I do not see a big problem here yet as long as the notes to the songs are correct.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Brendy
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:00 PM

And the correct title of the song, of course, is "The nose of Allan-a-Dale", and is originally about some guy's penchant for cocaine; it is said to predate the Tudor period.

Ain't the oral tradition somethin?

B.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: John Routledge
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:12 PM

"A Selection of Irish Folk Songs" by Gareth James contains the classic Three Score and Ten which relates to a tragic storm off the east coast of England. The publisher even claims copyright for whatever minute change made to the Non Irish origional. Still a superb song. Happy Music Making wherever you are. GBroon


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 08 Feb 01 - 05:28 AM

I wish I really did have too much time on my hands. My original posting came about because I've been asked to do an evening of Irish music on St Patrick's night at a local pub. So I've had to decide what to do on the night. I have many books of "Irish songs" like "100 Irish Ballads" by Soodlum .. but what I found when I went though them was that many were not Irish at all. Whilst most did state their origin it didn't excuse their being there in the first place.
In the end I guess I shall have to do all the Plastic Paddy crap that they expect in pubs.. and very little of the wonderful songs that the Irish really do have to offer.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 08 Feb 01 - 06:38 AM

John

So why not just put together a programme of the "wonderful songs that the Irish really do have to offer"? On Paddy's day, of course, the problem will not be the provenance of the songs - but the condition of the listeners!

Regards

p.s. I'd be interested to see the sort of list you'd think of trying.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Marc
Date: 08 Feb 01 - 06:55 AM

Unfortunatly, if you do a St Pats day program of all Irish music, you might have a dissappointed audience. Mostly folks whant Clancy Bro's and Macnamaras Band. Not that I have anything against the Clancys. I think they're great but their repitoir is like your book.

Marc


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: beachcomber
Date: 08 Feb 01 - 04:15 PM

Marc You are right about the Clancy Bros being great, although since two of the original group have passed away, However , I do not believe that Liam Clancy would ever, of his own volition, claim any song to be of Irish origin if it were not so. Liam is in fact quite a folklorist an I have always heard him give whatever credit a song's author or composer was deserved.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Feb 01 - 10:36 PM

I will get to the responses to a couple of you in a minute. But first I must offer an apology. John, I misread your intent in the first post. What I took to be just another post from someone who doesn't like the attention that the Irish get these days, was actually a straightforward question. There were two things that led me to this. One was the "and don't give me that crap..." portion of the original post, and the the other was the "waiting for the backlash" portion. It is clear to me now that your intent was really to register a gripe on an irritation, and to stimulate discussion. If you wonder what prompted this, it was Wolfgang's post. I have great respect for him, even though we frequently disagree. While he doesn't always convince me, he always does cause me to ponder seriously his opinion. I offer you a sincere apology for my silly attempt at analyzing your motives. I am not sure what got into me, buy I want to say publicly that I apologize to you for that.

Hansio, same deal.........sorta. I do sincerely apologize to you for my suggestion that you are shallow. No excuse for that, and I regret it. You did not act in a confrontational manner..........I did.........and I apologize for that as well. The rest of the analysis ...........offered in a nonconfrontational manner.........stands. I object strenuously to generalizations that characterize a whole group of people in a negative way.

Sophocleese, with regard to your analysis of the post...........I concur. With regard to your comment regarding what some refer to as my intellect.........f**k off. How's that for confrontational, Marc?

Mick


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,Marc
Date: 09 Feb 01 - 08:13 AM

I didn't intend to question the Clancy's intertperataion or scholarship. I simply wanted to point out that not all of their chosen performance material was from Irish sources, and to my knowledge was not presented as such. However it is this material, and that of the early 20th century "Irish/American" stage tradition, I believe most americans associate with St. Patricks Day. I primarily book myself as "playing Irish music"and I certanly know what the requests will be like on 3/17.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Fiolar
Date: 09 Feb 01 - 08:44 AM

Talking about anti-Irish sentiment, it is interesting to note that the Irish Taoiseach Bertie Ahern has been asked not to attend the unveiling of a monument to the victims of the Irish Famine in Lanarkshire in Scotland. A Labour MP has said that his presence might "give rise to sectarian disturbances."


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Feb 01 - 09:53 AM

I think he was also planning to attend the Rangers-Celtic derby match, and it was this which might "give rise to sectarian disturbances."


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,Indy lass
Date: 09 Feb 01 - 10:46 AM

We 'mudcatters' are a group of people from around the world that enjoy communicating with each other on music related subjects (of which I'm delighted to learn are many and interesting). Perhaps we could be a forum which could clarify "what is what" to some extent with our collective wisdom. I like the idea of setting up categories of "celtic" music and making lists of songs for each category. That way when we are playing before an audience who may question our selection of "Irish" songs we can refer them to the "Mudcat Standard of Folk Music." Just a thought...


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 09 Feb 01 - 11:14 AM

"Fiddler's Green" was written by one John Connelly. Even Schooner Fare gives him his due as composer on their album.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM

John told me that it's an important part of his pension


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