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I'm not anti Irish.. honest
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Snuffy Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:43 AM Well the tune is English, maybe we'll allow that the words are American. So what does that make the whole song put together? If ordinary folks (i.e. non-performers) know and sing any song, whether it started out in their own part of the world or somewhere else, then it is part of their tradition. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,Brian Clancy Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:43 AM To the original poster of this thread who listed "Fiddler's Green" as a true Irish song: The song was written by members of a great band called Schooner Fare...they are based in New England. But, yes, the song has been covered by darned near every Irish artist there is... |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,Brian Clancy Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:52 AM What does that make the Star Spangled Banner? It makes it a darned hard song to sing. And performers don't have any "edge" on this discussion. Anyone can like a song. One last thing: Ralph McTell wrote both Streets of London and From Clare to Here. I get lots of requests for both of them in Irish Pubs. I'd say Streets is English and Clare is Irish--by subject. They both are FOLK songs. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:33 PM If I bought a songbook called "Songs popular in the pubs of England" and it contained a few songs by Tom Paxton, I'd be agreeably surprised and pleased.
And I don't know about Schooner Fayre, they may be a great group - but if they don't have John Connolly as a member, they've got no claim to the Fiddlers Green he wrote (mind, there's another one in the DT, maybe they wrote that...), and I know he sees himself as English enough. (Mind, like Phil Colclough and Ralph McTell, I imagine he'd be eligible to play football for Ireland, for which you need a grandparent born in Ireland, as well as the ability to play football).
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,Brian Clancy Date: 04 Feb 01 - 01:44 PM Well let's settle this thread... Why do "Irish Songbooks" contain non-Irish songs? Because the editor told the author he needed twenty-six more tunes to fill the requirements and the poor fella went after anything he could so he could get paid and finish the thing.
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Irish sergeant Date: 04 Feb 01 - 02:55 PM Brian: Being a writer and having faced a deadline or two I can tell you, you're probably the closest to the mark with your last post. And yes, "The Star Spangled Banner" took the tune fron an English drinking song "To Ancreon in Heaven". The Confederate song "The Bonnie Blue Flag" Also took the tune of "The Irish Jaunting Car". Let's face it, good music just won't die. Isn't that why we perform? It's why I do around the campfire and I know it's why you do in clubs cafes and concerts. I know if I write a truly inspired sentance or lyric and more importantly, if I hear one. It's about the music and if it isn't no matter how rich you are, hang up the guitar or instrument of choice and take up the shovel. So what if Danny Boy is English? The fact is it is a great piece of music. Kindest reguards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,JTT Date: 04 Feb 01 - 03:29 PM I didn't mean Phil Coulter - I took the name from some webpage the song was on. But if it's by Phil Coulter, he's Irish, from Derry. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,JTT Date: 04 Feb 01 - 03:39 PM And Rose of Aranmore is a different song; but Allendale is the name of Parnell's gaff, and is definitely taken here (in Ireland) as being about K O'Shea. As for Danny Boy, the tune was collected by Lady Londonderry, who was (as it happens) an Irishwoman who wandered the hills of her estates and beyond collecting traditional Irish music at a time when it was in danger of being lost, and so it is called the Londonderry Air; I don't know exactly where the maudlin words come from, but as far as I know they are, unfortunately, of Irish origin. As for the Irish stealing tunes, I'm actually not aware of any that have been stolen - though I'm certainly aware of tunes held in common between, for instance, Ireland and Poland. Anyway, since this thread is a blatant attempt (quite successful, too - my compliments) at starting a flame war, I'll now bow out and retire from it. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,MacTattie Date: 04 Feb 01 - 05:06 PM Dear guest JTT, I'm shure the song you're thinking of is "Oh have you been to Allendale", which goes - Oh have you been to Allendale, and wandered in her lovely dale. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Snuffy Date: 04 Feb 01 - 06:23 PM Parnells "Gaff" was Avondale not |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Snuffy Date: 04 Feb 01 - 06:42 PM Oops, messed up the HTML there. Should have said: Parnells "gaff" was Avondale not Allendale. And the song is "Have you been to Avondale." I can send you a photo of Avondale House if you want.
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Feb 01 - 07:36 PM Big plug coming - but for a very nice guy. If you want to hear a contemporary Irish writers veiw on the subject get hold of any album by Anthony John Clarke one of my favourites. Such classics as "Tuesday night is always karaoke" and "But then I'm Irish" dealing with this and many other topics in a unique and wry manner. The blokes a genius. If you want more details check out his Web site Enjoy DtG |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,JTT Date: 05 Feb 01 - 03:26 AM Bowing back in for a moment - oh, of course you're right, Avondale. I sit corrected! Sorry.
Just looking at the Oxford book of |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Grab Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:03 AM Blame the Victorians and their marketing. Anyone writing music then had a simple rule for selling their songs successfully: if it's a jig, it's Irish; if it's a reel, it's Scottish. Question is, does it stop being "Irish music" if it's written or played by an Englishman/American/four-eyed Martian? If so, does that mean that I can't say I play Delta blues bcos I've never been anywhere near the Missississississ(argh!)ippi? Grab. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,John Hill Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:20 PM Danny Boy is one of over 100 songs composed to the same tune. The author was an English lawyer, Frederic Edward Weatherly (1848-1929), who was also a songwriter and radio entertainer. In 1910 he wrote the words and music for an unsuccessful song he called Danny Boy. In 1912 his sister-in-law in America sent him a tune called the Londonderry Air, which he had never heard before. He immediately noticed that the melody was perfectly fitted to his Danny Boy lyrics, and published a revised version of the song in 1913. As far as is known, Weatherly never set foot in Ireland. The tune was not collected by Lady Londonderry.. as stated above... It was collected from a lady in Londonderry in I think 1863 .. which is hardly the same thing. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,John Hill Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:26 PM Danny Boy is one of over 100 songs composed to the same tune. The author was an English lawyer, Frederic Edward Weatherly (1848-1929), who was also a songwriter and radio entertainer. In 1910 he wrote the words and music for an unsuccessful song he called Danny Boy. In 1912 his sister-in-law in America sent him a tune called the Londonderry Air, which he had never heard before. He immediately noticed that the melody was perfectly fitted to his Danny Boy lyrics, and published a revised version of the song in 1913. As far as is known, Weatherly never set foot in Ireland. The tune was not collected by Lady Londonderry.. as stated above... It was collected from a lady in Londonderry in I think 1863 .. which is hardly the same thing. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,John Hill Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:33 PM Thinks to Fionn. You are one of the only ones who has got my point. The buyers of these song book are not getting what they are paying for. In my book an "Irish song" has to be written by someone who is known to be Irish... or has to be Irish traditional... and accepted as such. The point someone made about "Song for Ireland" is just not valid. It is an English song about an Englishman's impression of Ireland whilst he was staying there. High Germany is not a German song just because it mentions Germany... It too is English.... despite being in a book of "Irish Songs" I have. I cannot accept that Forty shades of green by Johnny Cash is Irish... again in another book of "Irish songs". And as for James Last being an "Irish Artiste".. this really beggers belief. As for the points some are trying to make about the origins of English/Scots/Irish going back 1500 or more years ... this really is silly when I'm generally talking about contemporary songs.... and the people we term as Irish nowadays. Am I supposed to consider myself as German in this day and age... just because I have Saxon ancestry .. this line of argument is just daft. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,John Hill Date: 05 Feb 01 - 01:01 PM The Rose of Allandale was written by Charles Jeffreys (1807-1865) who was English. To suggest that the song is anything to do with Charles Stuart Parnell and Katey O'Shea ... their famous affair was 1882-1889... years after Jeffries died is just plain rediculous. There are several copies of this popular broadside ballad in the Bodleian Libary that were printed in the early 1800's ... probably even before Parnell was born in 1846. (in Avondale not Allandale) |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Fiolar Date: 05 Feb 01 - 02:44 PM The title is "Allendale" not "Allandale" |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Manitas Date: 05 Feb 01 - 03:55 PM If the books were sold as 'songs sung in Ireland' there'd be no problem would there? |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: beachcomber Date: 05 Feb 01 - 04:07 PM Ok John, We do get the flaming point, even us Irish. There , you see, Rediculous, stupid , stubborn, ignorant though we all are. By the way , you did'nt happen to have ann ancestor who wrote for PUNCH did you? The style seems vaguely familiar. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Jimmy C Date: 05 Feb 01 - 04:33 PM Commercialism is at fault, however, if I looked at the title of the book" Irish Songs" and then scanned the contents and found "Non-Irish" songs I would probably do one of two things. 1 - Buy the book and enjoy it or 2 - not buy the book. Commercialism affects everybody and everything. How many times have you noticed the title of a song being changed on a record or c.d. sleeve for example only to find that you already have the song on another C.D. under a different name. It's all geared to get you to buy the product. BTW john, I suppose soccer is still an English game, just because it originated there ?. Tell that to the Brazilians, Italians and French. Is basketball a Canadian game because it was invented by a canadian? or an american game because it was invented by a canadian living in america?. Parts of this thread reeks of jealousy and a little bit of anti-irish feelings despite your disclaimer in the original posting. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Snuffy Date: 05 Feb 01 - 07:54 PM Origins are not really important. "No Mans Land/Willie McBride/Green Fields of France" is (well on the way to being?) an Irish traditional song, just as the bouzouki is now a traditional Irish instrument. And so are many other songs from England, Scotland, America etc, even if they are no longer part of the living tradition in their homeland. It's what people take to their hearts that counts, not where it came from. Who cares if the Black Velvet Band was originally set in Barking not Belfast or Tralee - it had almost died out in England but was given a new lease of life in Ireland and thanks to that it has now re-entered the English tradition too. Folksong knows no boundaries and borders. It doesn't carry a label saying "made in England" or wherever. But it can be very interesting to trace back the origins of a song through various countries and centuries. Wassail! V Wassail! V |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,John Hill Date: 06 Feb 01 - 12:55 PM I'm beginning to despare now...The title is not Allendale its Allandale. See here for the original broadside printed in the early 1800's http://bodley24.bodley.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/acwwweng/ballads/image.pl?ref=Harding+B+11(3325)&id=04236.gif&seq=1&size=1 |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,John Hill Date: 06 Feb 01 - 01:02 PM There is a place called Allendale... but its in England. Allandale is in Scotland. "Since Mary left her highland home"... |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,John Hill Date: 06 Feb 01 - 01:24 PM Snuffy... No man's land is popular all over the world... not just Ireland. For the Irish to claim ownership of its origin because its sung regularly there is just plain dishonest. It is not.. nor will it ever be a "traditonal" Irish song. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Hansio Date: 06 Feb 01 - 06:32 PM I wouldn't exactly say that that was true, but I do find it regrettable that with so many fine, authentic Irish traditional tunes from which to choose, people by & large are subjected to what that old lady so aptly called "That plastic paddy American crap"....an expression I plan to adopt immediately, in plenty of time for the Boston St. Paddy's onslaught of Ersatz Hibernianism! |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Grab Date: 06 Feb 01 - 07:07 PM John, the answer is two words long - it sells. Blame the marketing guys. Grab. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Big Mick Date: 06 Feb 01 - 10:14 PM I repeat..........John, I am sure you are a fine man with too much time on his hands. I accept your point..........but to ponder it to this length begs the question. What is it about the Irish that bothers you so badly that you would devote this much time to bitching about something like songs that they have appropriated? As if every culture hasn't done the same. If I felt like devoting the time to this inane subject, I would come up with about 200 examples of this. Ours is a culture which places its music, poets, artists et al, on a pedestal unlike almost any other culture in the world. And Hasio, you either have the same problem, or you are an elitist. In either case, your post was an arrogant piece of work. I wonder if you go into Irish pubs in England and complain about plastic English paddy crap, or in Amsterdam the Dutch Plastic Paddy crap, or in Germany, the German plastic paddy crap. I have been in pubs in each of these countries and heard the same pub songs I have heard in the states. I have also been in pubs in Boston, and plenty of them, were some marvelous trad is being played. Come to one of our shows and you will certainly hear the standards. But you will also hear jigs, slip jigs, reels, some sean nos, and other "trad" stuff. It really bothers me when I hear the generalizations about yanks. To be sure there are plenty of the green beer drinking, pointed ear wearing Americans who don't know much about real trad Irish music. But the states also produces more than its share of world class step dancers, musicians of every stripe, pipers and some of the finest pipe builders in the world (Quinn Koehler come directly to mind). Groups like Altan play to sold out houses of "plastic American paddy's" everyplace they perform. Purpose of the rant...................Lay off the stupid generalizations. They are not true, and they demonstrate that you are a shallow person. Mick |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Snuffy Date: 07 Feb 01 - 05:09 AM Trouble is, Mick, for the last few years the marketing people have been ruining perfectly good traditional English pubs and turning them into "Plastic Paddy" pubs, which bear as much resemblance to Ireland as the Pyramids do. Bar staff with emerald green waistcoats and bowlers (derbys?), Foster & Allan or Daniel O'Donnell on the PA, "traditional Irish" (microwave) food, etc. So we're getting the worst of both worlds. But someone must be buying this crap, or they wouldn't spend millions on "improving" their pubs in this way. Having sat in real English pubs and Irish bars listening to real people doing their own traditional thing, this marketing shite really gets up my nose.
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,Marc Date: 07 Feb 01 - 08:48 AM Some folks appear to be offended at the attempt to create contraversy. However they also appear to post fairly regularly. So maybe they're just as entertained by contraversy as am I. Some time the greatest amount of information is arrived at by said conflict. I thought the Anacreon society was infact a colonial past time, and not that large in England. Marc Bernier |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: sophocleese Date: 07 Feb 01 - 09:31 AM Big Mick stop tilting at the straw windmills that you set up. I'm not reading any posts suggesting that only the Irish are likely to steal tunes. The answer to John's original question is that it sells, many people have stated this. Its not a pleasant answer but it doesn't attack the Irish, or those who love traditional Irish music. Has it perhaps started to cross that vast expanse of inert material some people refer to as your brain that your heated rebuttals to unstated assumptions simply because the word Irish is in this thread might account for a somewhat defensive tone? I don't think it is the psyche of someone who asks interesting and legitimate questions that needs to be examined but instead it is the person who gets his knickers in a twist over one word who needs some counselling. A lot of the people who post to and read the mudcat are interested not just in lyrics and tunes but also in the history and variations of songs. Its neat to read about how a song travelled and see how different people have sung it. This question is a facet of that interest. No Man's Land or Willie McBride may become a traditional Irish song if the name and nationality of the author are forgotten. Until then, however popular it is in Irish pubs, it is not an Irish song, it is an Eric Bogle song. Songs verifiably written and composed by people residing outside of Ireland, even if their grandfather's poodle's hairdresser's second wife's bosom buddy was one eighth Irish, are not Irish songs. They can be good or great songs composed in an Irish style and they may also be popular in Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: sophocleese Date: 07 Feb 01 - 09:34 AM PS. How's that for a confrontational post GUEST Marc? Am I in the running? |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Marc Date: 07 Feb 01 - 02:06 PM That was beautiful sophocleese. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: John Routledge Date: 07 Feb 01 - 02:12 PM Snuffy - The Soccer World Cup has a lot to answer for. Cheers!! Geordie Broon |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Wolfgang Date: 07 Feb 01 - 02:19 PM I could write two very different posts to this thread, a confrontational and a nonconfrontational. I start with the confrontational: Some of the posters here don't read what they criticise with enough care and that doesn't help the discussion. Two prime examples are: Brian Clancy, who criticises John Hill for having claimed 'Fiddler's Green' being an Irish song, when in fact John has said explicitely the opposite; and Big Mick who jumps on Hansio and calls him (?) a shallow person for a completely unconfrontational post and doesn't even spell his name correctly. Now to the unconfrontational part.
I see two statements (of purported fact) in John Hill's argument and only one of them can be seen as a reproach:
I do not see much support for the second assertion. I have songbooks that state 'Irish songs' in the title (or 'songs from Ireland' or parts or Ireland) and they only have Irish songs in them (there are boundary cases everywhere). I see books that are titled 'Songs and ballads popular in the pubs of Ireland' and they for sure have songs among them that are not Irish. I only see one series of books that definitely lies in the title. That is Soodlum's '100 Irish songs' in at least two volumes complete with tape. Of course, they have 'Fiddler's Green' and the other usual suspects, but in each case I have looked at they explicitely state in the notes the author. In one case they even write correctly 'traditional English song' in the notes. You may think it is ironic to be confronted explicitely with a traditional English song in a book titled '100 Irish songs', but at least it's not a lie. John (Hill), I do not have problems with foreign songs in a collection of songs popular in Ireland, I would have a lot of problems with calling songs trad. that aren't or claiming wrong provenience. However, I do not see a big problem here yet as long as the notes to the songs are correct. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Brendy Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:00 PM And the correct title of the song, of course, is "The nose of Allan-a-Dale", and is originally about some guy's penchant for cocaine; it is said to predate the Tudor period. Ain't the oral tradition somethin? B. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: John Routledge Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:12 PM "A Selection of Irish Folk Songs" by Gareth James contains the classic Three Score and Ten which relates to a tragic storm off the east coast of England. The publisher even claims copyright for whatever minute change made to the Non Irish origional. Still a superb song. Happy Music Making wherever you are. GBroon |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,John Hill Date: 08 Feb 01 - 05:28 AM I wish I really did have too much time on my hands. My original posting came about because I've been asked to do an evening of Irish music on St Patrick's night at a local pub. So I've had to decide what to do on the night. I have many books of "Irish songs" like "100 Irish Ballads" by Soodlum .. but what I found when I went though them was that many were not Irish at all. Whilst most did state their origin it didn't excuse their being there in the first place. In the end I guess I shall have to do all the Plastic Paddy crap that they expect in pubs.. and very little of the wonderful songs that the Irish really do have to offer. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 08 Feb 01 - 06:38 AM John So why not just put together a programme of the "wonderful songs that the Irish really do have to offer"? On Paddy's day, of course, the problem will not be the provenance of the songs - but the condition of the listeners! Regards p.s. I'd be interested to see the sort of list you'd think of trying. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Marc Date: 08 Feb 01 - 06:55 AM Unfortunatly, if you do a St Pats day program of all Irish music, you might have a dissappointed audience. Mostly folks whant Clancy Bro's and Macnamaras Band. Not that I have anything against the Clancys. I think they're great but their repitoir is like your book. Marc |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: beachcomber Date: 08 Feb 01 - 04:15 PM Marc You are right about the Clancy Bros being great, although since two of the original group have passed away, However , I do not believe that Liam Clancy would ever, of his own volition, claim any song to be of Irish origin if it were not so. Liam is in fact quite a folklorist an I have always heard him give whatever credit a song's author or composer was deserved. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Big Mick Date: 08 Feb 01 - 10:36 PM I will get to the responses to a couple of you in a minute. But first I must offer an apology. John, I misread your intent in the first post. What I took to be just another post from someone who doesn't like the attention that the Irish get these days, was actually a straightforward question. There were two things that led me to this. One was the "and don't give me that crap..." portion of the original post, and the the other was the "waiting for the backlash" portion. It is clear to me now that your intent was really to register a gripe on an irritation, and to stimulate discussion. If you wonder what prompted this, it was Wolfgang's post. I have great respect for him, even though we frequently disagree. While he doesn't always convince me, he always does cause me to ponder seriously his opinion. I offer you a sincere apology for my silly attempt at analyzing your motives. I am not sure what got into me, buy I want to say publicly that I apologize to you for that. Hansio, same deal.........sorta. I do sincerely apologize to you for my suggestion that you are shallow. No excuse for that, and I regret it. You did not act in a confrontational manner..........I did.........and I apologize for that as well. The rest of the analysis ...........offered in a nonconfrontational manner.........stands. I object strenuously to generalizations that characterize a whole group of people in a negative way. Sophocleese, with regard to your analysis of the post...........I concur. With regard to your comment regarding what some refer to as my intellect.........f**k off. How's that for confrontational, Marc? Mick |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,Marc Date: 09 Feb 01 - 08:13 AM I didn't intend to question the Clancy's intertperataion or scholarship. I simply wanted to point out that not all of their chosen performance material was from Irish sources, and to my knowledge was not presented as such. However it is this material, and that of the early 20th century "Irish/American" stage tradition, I believe most americans associate with St. Patricks Day. I primarily book myself as "playing Irish music"and I certanly know what the requests will be like on 3/17. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Fiolar Date: 09 Feb 01 - 08:44 AM Talking about anti-Irish sentiment, it is interesting to note that the Irish Taoiseach Bertie Ahern has been asked not to attend the unveiling of a monument to the victims of the Irish Famine in Lanarkshire in Scotland. A Labour MP has said that his presence might "give rise to sectarian disturbances." |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: Snuffy Date: 09 Feb 01 - 09:53 AM I think he was also planning to attend the Rangers-Celtic derby match, and it was this which might "give rise to sectarian disturbances." |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,Indy lass Date: 09 Feb 01 - 10:46 AM We 'mudcatters' are a group of people from around the world that enjoy communicating with each other on music related subjects (of which I'm delighted to learn are many and interesting). Perhaps we could be a forum which could clarify "what is what" to some extent with our collective wisdom. I like the idea of setting up categories of "celtic" music and making lists of songs for each category. That way when we are playing before an audience who may question our selection of "Irish" songs we can refer them to the "Mudcat Standard of Folk Music." Just a thought... |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST,BigDaddy Date: 09 Feb 01 - 11:14 AM "Fiddler's Green" was written by one John Connelly. Even Schooner Fare gives him his due as composer on their album. |
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest From: GUEST Date: 13 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM John told me that it's an important part of his pension |
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