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Quitting with heavy drugs
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Subject: Quitting with heavy drugs From: GUEST,Sergio Alguim Date: 03 Feb 01 - 03:59 PM How difficult is it to quit using heavy drugs like cocain or heroin ? And then I am thinking most of the physical problems, and not so much about the psycholigical problems/"needs or longing for drugs" that probably last a longer time. If you are a user of heroin and quit totally for lets say 3 days, are you then more or less over it ? Is it then psychically easy to not start again ?How difficult is it to get through the first 1-5 days ? Is it right to say about the drug-misusers: "They can stop the drug-misuse if they want to" ? |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: grumpy al Date: 03 Feb 01 - 04:09 PM easy way to quit heavy drugs? simple don't start |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Feb 01 - 05:26 PM I'm pretty certain that whatever the drug, there's something in some people that makes them more likely to get addicted, and something in others that makes them, less likely. And it's not a question of will-power - just think about one killer drug and drug-taking ritual that is more addictive than any, for some people, tobacco.
Take two people who are moderately heavy smokers, and they decide to give it up - one's going to have no problems at all, just stop, and that's it, and any time they feel like it they can have a ciggy, and no problem whatsoever; and the other is going to find it virtually impossible and if they do succeed it'll be a life-wrenching struggle, and anytime they have another fag they're right down at the bottom, with another hill to climb.
And you can't say that one of them has a stronger character than the other, it's just a question of how their bodies and minds are put together.
And I think much the same applies to all the other drugs. It's not so much that some are more addictive than others. They are all terribly addictive to some people, and only a little addictive to others, and hardly addictive at all to some others. But the trouble is you don't know in advance which you are - and some of them have terrible effects if you keep taking them. It's a terrible gamble.
But to anyone who's got a drug habit they want to walk away from, I'd always say, don't be frightened to try just giving it up because other people say it'll be terribly hard, because you just might be one of the lucky ones for whom it's not so hard. And equally, never be fooled by someone saying that some drug isn't very addictive, because you might be one of the ones for whom it is. |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: Barry Finn Date: 03 Feb 01 - 05:26 PM "Just saying no" helps the problem only get large through ignorance, thanks for that one Nancy & Ronnie, an infestment in drug education would pay back a thousand fold. I'll speak here from my personnal experience. Before I was 15 I was an addict when I was 13 I was a substance abuser it took the next 10 yrs of what should have been the best of my years before I could, not want to but could finally shake the monkey off my shoulders. While it is true that the physical NEED lasts, depending on the drug, anywheres from 3 day to a month (this is the easy part), the psycholigical CRAVINGS last for easlily up to 6 moths, a year & more. This is the worst, I can remember what a shock it was for when I reealized that one day had gone by when I didn't think of drugs once, that was probably a year & a half after quitting & even then it was a seldom occurance. It was the first thought I wake to & the last thought before sleeping & during the day it was thought of 24/7. Over the years it becomes your spouse, your lie, your crutch, your best friend, your job that you get better at, it's where oyu draw your self worth from, you idenity, social status & your pain & pleasure from that lets you know that you're still alive (hah). It's here where you can get all your excitement when your bored, your company when you're lonely. Alot of these wants, needs & desires can't be just given up in the weak state of mind that one whose trying to stay clean they'd be far better off being transfered into a more healthy ave. & it's here that alot "fall off" by setting themselves up by visiting old haunts, seeing old associates & generally by not removing themselves from what usually turns into "another fall". This is probably close to the worst part mentioned above & could last another 5 years (that's a big generalization IMHO, depending on the person there's plenty of room one way or the other), meanwhile most are either scared shit some of the time to all of the time knowing what becomes them when they fall, it's ALWAYS harder the next time. Then for the next 5 years a huge amount of ex addicts go about with the thought that they're ex-this or an ex-that. You do the math. I happened to have been one of the few lucky ones. I got clean & pretty much (with 18 months of in house counseling) took to the task from day one & never looked back, I haven't thought of myself as an ex in over 20 years & it's been over 25 years since & although it's like it was all in a different live (which it was) it still can be call up into plain view easy enough. I can count on one hand how many out of the hundreds that I've met with that are still clean today, one of them includes my father, 35 yrs clean (RIP) who got clean mostly in part to help me when I started. The saddest part is, is that there's no room at the Inn for those that want help but haven't the slightest idea on how to go about getting it & cut backs are by far cheaper than programs not tosay how cheap it is just to say no in the first place. I can't imagine what the goverment's gotta pay to keep my cousin locked up for the next 22 yrs (he's already been there for 10). I know it would've been far cheaper to have put him in a program when he crawled to me begging & scared to death pleading for me to help him get into a program somewhere before the fall he knew he was going to take happened. So is it easy? Barry |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: Barry Finn Date: 03 Feb 01 - 05:31 PM Sorry about the long post above, I should have wrtiien EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION. Programs can help those already addicted but education is the best. |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: Dave Wynn Date: 03 Feb 01 - 05:51 PM Sorry guys...The question was "how difficult is it to give up"..not "should I start taking.....",with the benefit of hindsight we all know we shouldn't start taking drugs....as to the actual question.....I gave up Nicotine after many attempts and it was very very hard indeed..... Spot (feeling a little pedantic)
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Feb 01 - 07:03 PM AS I said, it might be virtually or completely impossible for a particular individual; it might be relatively easy. People vary so much that any kind of generalisation is misleading.. |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: okthen Date: 03 Feb 01 - 07:31 PM Aparently cafeine is harder to quit than nicotine or heroin. I heard somewhere that "addicts" quit one thing for another, gamblers take up smoking for instance, or alcoholics take up gambling, Whatever, I wish you as much luck in quitting as I would wish myself in quitting my addiction (nicotine). have been using zyban for 3 weeks now, going well but not out of the woods yet. cheers bill |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: Rick Fielding Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:02 AM Barry, thanks for sharing that. I count myself very lucky to not have mirrored your story. I've lost a few friends on that route, and perhaps even sadder, watched some great talents simply disintegrate to where they weren't worth listening to. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: Gypsy Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:07 AM Forgive me, but the tenor of your post implies, how difficult would it be...if i want to try it. Drugs of any kind are difficult. Not only mentally, physically, but society has its little claws in there too. Such as the commercials that show how much fun it is to get plowed, real men smoke Marlboros, drugs are IMPOSSIBLE to quit (thereby being a self fufilling prophecy) In my own case, it was the societal pressures that were really the worst. Physical cravings are gone in 3 days. Mental, read war and peace, or learn a difficult tune. But society hammers away at you everywhere. ( gypsywhoisoscleannowthatshesqueaks) |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: katlaughing Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:10 AM Thank you, Barry, no need to apologise for something so straight from the heart and very meaningful. Good for you and your dad and good points about the inefficacy of "just saying no." It never worked to keep young women for getting pregnant. I can't imagine why they thought it would help with drugs. Okthen, good luck, one of these days I hope my SO will do the same with nicotine. Good luck to you, too Sergio, if indeed it was you were asking for. kat |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: Sorcha Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:49 AM No one I know has been able to do it alone. From my point of view, an Addictive Personality is and addictive personality......period. We can substitute one addiction for another, but we are still addicted.
I no longer do "illegal" drugs, but I still do alcohol and tobacco....I don't gamble, but I see the attraction. And WHY it is an attraction.
Addictive personalities somehow/somewhy need an Outside Agent to lay blame on......as in "It's not MY fault I have emphysyma, it's the cigarettes", or "It's not MY fault I am a drunk, alcohol is legal and freely available, THEY should stop selling it."
Smokers have patches, gum and Zyban. Alcoholics have AA, heroin users have methadone......but don't kid yourself, you will be addicted to Something. Choose your addiction with regard to what it will do to you, your life, your health, and those you love. (Zyban can cause liver damage) |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: blt Date: 04 Feb 01 - 04:51 AM To all, I've tried everything at least once and remained a very heavy pot user for about 20 years (meaning daily use, several times a day). I also was an up and coming meth and coke addict for about 5 years in my 20s. My first solution to the meth and coke, which was turning toward heroin when I became scared, was a geographical relocation, away from friends who seemed to be not only using/dealing drugs but suddenly selling guns and fencing stereos. This worked briefly. It was really my belief system, as well as the biochemical process involved with addiction that got me into the most trouble and proved to be the hardest to change. I'm now a drug and alcohol counselor (for the past 6 years), working with adolescents and their families. It's partly a way to pay back what I put my own family through, but mostly it's about me facing myself squarely. I did not begin to counsel anyone until I had done a lot of work on myself, but still I am constantly seeing echoes of my own way of thinking about the world. The neurochemistry of all this varies based on the drug, but in general, addictive "pathways" are currently thought of as being formed in adolescence, so that using nicotine beginning, say, at age 12, creates a series of patterns in how one neuron or brain cell communicates to another. This pattern, especially in adolescence, becomes a preferred pathway, one that the individual experiences as feeling "normal". In some cases, this can mean using drugs or alcohol to deal with either physical or emotional pain. Drugs/alcohol do several things: they mimic natural substances, they push the production/release of natural chemicals until they're depleted, and/or they block the transmission of natural chemicals. So, it is easy to see how the combination of emotional trauma, a misguided belief system, and a drug that manipulates brain chemistry can be incredibly powerful. In my case, the belief system had to do with isolation, individualism, and the right to consume whatever I wanted. Education is very important, I agree. Dealing with cravings takes a willingness to ask for help, getting support from others you can trust who are not using, a willingness to try alternative health approaches (such as acupuncture), looking at your diet, talking with a biomedical physician honestly, and taking it slow. 12-step groups work for many people, yet not for everybody--I've found the steps useful when I've needed some very basic reminders of what's important, and I've taken a lot of kids to AA and NA groups. Relapse is sometimes thought of as a typical aspect of getting clean, and I hear people talk about having "2 or 3 relapses left." Often, if someone has been using since their teen years and they're now in their 30s, they'll have tried to stop at least once--in fact, it's diagnostic of someone having a problem with drugs and alcohol if they say that they've tried to stop several times. However, relapse is not simply picking up again but all the thoughts and actions that preceed the actual use. This, I believe, is because the mind and the body cannot be separated--being able to recognize that the thought process is going on allows an entry point into changing the pattern of addiction. It is easier to access change the further one is from the action of using. So, learn all you can about what thoughts, feelings, and actions preceed using; be very, very detailed and observant. This was long, and I hope it makes sense. One of my goals as a counselor is to be able to talk and write about drug and alcohol use in a way that's clear and accurate, as well as to be non-judgemental. My history of drug use meant that I didn't really begin to grow up until I was 35, maybe even 40. I'm still in school at 49. I made disasterous relationship choices, repeatedly. I got pretty lost, and although I feel that I've found my way back, I can't help but regret the time I've wasted. I just can't get stuck in the regret. So, I'm still learning. blt |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: katlaughing Date: 04 Feb 01 - 06:23 AM Excellent, blt, thank you very much for sharing with us. I would only add to what you and Sorcha have written by saying I watched a doctor the other day who spoke on behaviour and addiction. What he said rings true, esp. with what you've said, blt, in that he inferred people who have any kind of additive behaviour, drugs, illegal or non, food, etc., do so to fill a need. He seems to have had a lot of success in treating food addicts by helping them to identify that need; evidently a lot of people are in denial about whatever those needs may be. I can see that it could be quite scary to confront the real needs that one may have subsumed. It was very interesting. kat |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: mkebenn Date: 04 Feb 01 - 08:54 AM Very good information and addvice. I will just throw in my 2cents. I agree fully with McGrath. I am having the devil's own time with nicotine, but I used Cocaine heavily in the early '80s and walked away without a problem. All people's chemistries are different,and if you are facing a challange God's speed, if you're asking "can I play here and walk away later" DON'T BE A FOOL..Mike |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: Brendy Date: 04 Feb 01 - 09:18 AM Stay away from people, places and things. Giving up one element of the lifestyle, will invariably mean giving all of it up. At least for a while, until the psyche (and also, perhaps, the body) gets used to not having it around, and you get comfortable with the idea of being clean. If you haven't started any of the drugs you mention, I would also advise against it, for the road back from it can take years, by which time, life may well have passed you by. But if if you are finding the going a bit difficult at the minute, take a break from the lifestyle for 6 months, and see how you feel after that. If you need it, get some sort of counselling, but do it soon. This descision could eventually save your life. B. |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:16 PM Nobody's mentioned they one addiction that's probably quite good for you - the Mudcat.
Like the old drunk in Thonton Wilder's Play The Matchmaker (later bastardised into Hello Dolly). He finds a full wallet, and hands it back - and explains that he believes in cultivating one vice, in his case the drink, and letting the others wither away. Cultivate the one addiction to the Mudcat, and maybe you can let the others die off like weeds. |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: Justa Picker Date: 04 Feb 01 - 01:33 PM I had a real problem with methamphetamine (speed) and I.V usage as a teenager. (Was young, impressionable, troubled and fell in with a bad crowd.) The addiction lasted 3 years, but after a while it wasn't the drugs themselves that I was really addicted to. It was the needle itself. An overdose followed by a near death experience; a stunning realization that I was sick and would die if I didn't get help; and 10 months of intensive group therapy saved me. (Back then there was no such thing as aids.) To this day, I have an aversion to needles and can't even look when a nurse takes blood for a routine blood test as part of an annual physical. The sight of a needle nauseates me. When you realize you've reached rock bottom, there are only 2 directions you can go. A little voice inside my head chose the upper direction. |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: Justa Picker Date: 04 Feb 01 - 01:34 PM ...sorry only meant to bold the word "realize" above...
no problem |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: GUEST,Sergio Alguim Date: 04 Feb 01 - 05:31 PM Thank you for a lot of answers. I try to make a conclusion. And that conclusion is that it takes about 3 days to get over the worst physical problems. But for some people it is "no problem" at all to quit drugs. But for for a lot of other it is a phsychological problem a looooong time after the "quitting". And I agree that the best way to quit using drugs, is to not start using it. If you think my conclusions are wrong, or/and you have more wiews to share, you are welcome to write them. |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Feb 01 - 07:08 PM Well I'm no expert - I suspect that with some drugs, and some people, physical withdrawal problems can last a bit longer than 3 days. But I agree with Sergio in thinking the main problems about quitting in the long run are likely not to be directly physical. But that doesn't mean that they're unreal, or can be properly described in terms of weakness of the will.
I've known people whom in most ways I'd describe as remarkably strong-willed and gutsy, who have had enormous problems stopping smoking for example. And vice versa. |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: Barry Finn Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:33 PM Hi Sergio, Let me rephrase, 3 days would be a mild herion addiction, up to say a week for a heavier hitter, herion being a bit easier to get past in the physical sense, where as say methadone (the control drug of junkies) kicked cold can kill you & if it doesn't may take up to a month to get past, this is always used to detox slowly, bringing the dose down a bit at a time, this can take half a year & better, so most times it's the drug of preference that sets the time & severity not the body. Once you've got a good habit going for awhile there is no such thing as "for some people it's not a problem", at least not all the addicts I knew, once it become an addiction it's a problem that very hard to handle & I've only met one who didn't do it without the help of a program. By the way I remember the first methadone program in Boston ( mid to late 1960's) & I've never seen anyone that could shake that drug. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: blt Date: 05 Feb 01 - 03:53 AM Dear Sergio, What I've experienced, seen, and read concerning physical effects of withdrawal (detoxing) off what you call heavy drugs is that 3 days is unrealistically short. The initial effects can include body aches, nausea, vomiting, headache, convulsions, visual hallucinations, rapid pulse/breathing, coma, black outs, slurred speech--depending on the drug in question--and these symptoms can last up to several weeks. The flu-like symptoms can last longer. Emotional effects, such as anxiety, depression, irritation, hyperactivity, an inability to feel a sense of joy or happiness, sleeplessness (or the reverse, chronic fatigue), nightmares, dreams about using can last a year or more, with 3 to 6 months being the most intense period. Post-acute withdrawal symptoms are recurring symptoms that can cycle around in that first year, as the body attempts to heal itself. Body chemistry rebounds--tries to balance the depletion of adrenaline (from coke)or dopamine (from heroin)due to over stimulation--and this healing process can feel like a roller coaster. There are bad, bad days, a not so bad day, then a good day, then a bad day--well, you get the idea. Up to a certain point, the body will heal, and even with a surprising degree of abuse, our bodies still try to heal, but the general idea is, it doesn't happen overnight, and it doesn't even happen over 3 nights. Youth is an advantage in some ways, but the trade-off is that the body doesn't develop or develops poorly, and the addiction process can occur in a shorter period of time. Aging means a higher risk of harm with less ability to heal. Support during this process is critical, whether that's group therapy, individual therapy (or both), and connection to friends or family or a community of people going through the same process. blt |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: Dharmabum Date: 05 Feb 01 - 09:30 AM I've had to deal with the effects of drug/alcohol addiction now for more than half of my 47 years. My first wife unfortunately went to her grave without ever getting a handle on her addiction. There were many years of heartbreak, watching her struggle to climb up & away from her addiction,only to fall back again over time. Now,it's my 19 year old daughter. Addicted to heroin at 16,we've been through hell and back a number of times. I say "WE" because drug addiction has a profound effect not only on the addict,but those who love & care about them. If this were just simple "fallout"from the effects of addiction,it would be easy to take cover from it. But it goes much deeper,to the point of scarring ones hope & trust.Quite simply,to the point where the healthiest thing you can do for yourself, is to distance yourself away from the addict.And when that person happens to be your spouse,child,parent or whoever,it is no easy task. Dare I say,It's as difficult as giving up,....
I realize that this is not something that an addict in their early stages of recovery needs to deal with,& I'm not trying to lay a guilt trip on anyone,but please realize,the effects of addiction go far & deep.And if you're lucky,you'll have a lifetime to discover that.....if you're lucky.
I'm happy to report,my daughter is about to celebrate one year clean & sober.It's been a long hard road for the both of us,& there's still quite a distance to travel. It took many failed attempts,a few rehabs,and finally a halfway house fifteen hundred miles away from each other. And a complete lifestyle change for her. None of this happened in three days.
There are programs,there are people,there is support.No one has to go through this alone,but you have to go through it. You rarely get a second chance to overdose. Ron. |
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Subject: RE: Quitting with heavy drugs From: Willie-O Date: 05 Feb 01 - 09:54 AM My experiences: (alcohol being the drug that chose me) Physical withdrawal symptoms, after 20+ years of daily drinking: None. Reasons for quitting:
After stopping, I found out:
Due to differing cultural attitudes towards different drugs, there is a tendency to throw words around like "addiction" and "misery" in ways that are not very consistent with the facts. How difficult it is to stop using any drug, legal or illegal, liquid, powdered or psychological, depends on what your relationship with the drug is. Due to the power of human rationalization though, most people don't have a really clear understanding of what that relationship is until they try to quit. The other thing is whether a person is ready to stop. The vast majority of people who have a substance abuse problem early in their adult lives sooner or later mature out of it. It took me longer than most to get to a point where I realized I had more important things to do than get buzzed all the time. When I stopped, there was plenty else in my life to fill that gap. It was pretty easy to sort through my priorities. Mostly cause I have a wife and two smart kids and I want them to be proud of me. If I was living by myself in some little place, it would have been harder to stop. As you may have gathered I haven't had a lot of experience with harder drugs, maybe did coke 6 times, never past the experimental stage. Intuitively I understand that I was very close to a point in my own drug-use that would have been a lot harder to return from, and I have no doubt that had I been using heavier drugs the problems would have been clearer a lot sooner than twenty years down the road. I'm glad I didn't go down it. Booze was enough trouble. Willie-O
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