Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: GUEST,JeffB
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM

I have an unexpected problem, which is as vexing as it it puzzling, in substantiating my statement that "to scallet" is a Scots verb meaning "to divide", and by extension "to comb". I had been unhappy about about the "Maid o' Scalleter" phrase for some time, and about two years ago I researched it on the Net. I am pretty sure that I used the Dictionary of the Scottish Language website, and utterly adamant that I found the sense of combing among a great many others. But on re-visiting the site it is nowhere to be found. A thorough search has drawn a blank, as has an e-mail to the staff at DSL. So, I am at a complete loss as to where I got it from.

There is to "sc(k)ail", which means to disperse, send away, divide up, dismiss, and sundry other senses, with a derivation from a Norse root meaning "to divide", but the specific sense of combing is not mentioned. Nevertheless, on the grounds that one does not have hallucinations about dictionaries, I am standing by this, though without any expectation that anyone will believe me.

But perhaps others might agree that a "shirt o' lawn" is a better phrase than "alane", making more sense as well as preserving the rhyme. And on the basis of rhyme, which is consistent throughout the ballad, and I shall revise my opinion of the "hire your hand" line. I was convinced that MacColl sang "horn", but as everyone else is convinced it was "hand" then I'll go along with it and sing that in future. Presumably their hearing is better than MacColl's accent. As "to hire a hand" means to engage a workman, I suppose that this line means " ... she would have taken you on full-time."

But I will continue to sing "aye she scrat" - it's far better than "grat" in the second half of the song.

Malcolm : The DSL does have an entry for "spey", but in the specific sense of a sluice built on the River Tay. Obviously, one can assume a link of sorts between a sluice and a slit in a night-gown, but do you have a refernce for your meaning?

Robinia : just a small point about the mention in your website of how you are baffled by the "Hauld awa' " to her mother. Eppie has been seized by a gang of roughs and her mother has run out to her. She is simply telling her mother to stay away so that she isn't hurt, and re-assures her that no man will marry her.

I always thought there was a slight hiatus in the action between verses 1 and 2, so I put in my own verse at that point to explain what's going on ...

They've gone to Eppie Morrie's house and broken down the door,
and aye she grat and aye she spat and aye her folk did roar.

As a Sassenach, it sounds alright to me, but I've never run it past a native speaker. I'm bracing myself for the howls from the critics.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 07:39 PM

My comment on the hand/horn question was based not on listening to MacColl's singing, but on MacColl's own transcription of the words: his understanding then, rather than mine.

As for 'spey', Alexander Warrack's Scots Dialect Dictionary (also issued as Chambers' Scots Dictionary) has 'spey same as spae' and 'spae n the opening or slit in a gown, petticoat, etc.'

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: GUEST,Marymac90
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:48 AM

Alex Dobkin's version is mentioned above, and I, for one,
like it a lot. It's on her "Lavender Jane Loves Women".
Dobkin came from Philly and was "just" a folksinger
before she made a bigger name for herself doing lesbian
and feminist songs. She has a great voice, really strong,
perfect for those eastern European women's folksongs that
are traditionally sung at a high volume. She has some of
those on "Lavender Jane" too.

As far as the translation of the Scots dialect, the
authenticity of various lyrics, and the dates attributed
to the collection of various versions, I'm not going near
any of that with a ten foot pole! I'm leaving that to
the musicologists, historians, linguists, and other
scholars, amateur or professional. All I know is I like
the song!

Marymac

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: GUEST,CarolMG
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 04:12 PM

Could EM be a response to the more typical bride stealing ballads with their tiresome, weeping women? I'm reminded of "Rob Roy frae the Highlands Cam." I like the tune, but not the bride. To compare these two ballads: both have bands of men coming down on horseback from the Highlands to steal an unwilling bride, both ballads have an ineffective mother and no father. In both, the man carries the unwilling bride to a priest, and both show us how the couple reacts the day after. But there are significant differences. In the RR ballad, the unwilling bride fights with "cries and wat'ry eyes" addressed to her mother and then to her kidnapper. EM, in contrast, orders Willie to stand back and declares she will not marry him or any such other. As suggested in an earlier post, perhaps EM was even trying to protect her mother, again acting from strength. The weak bride in RR is unsuccessful and we learn how "mournfully she wept and cried when she by him was laid." I've been trying to figure out why EM is so captivating. I think it is her bold character. I like the tune and her. Last thought: does anyone else think it odd that EM knows her attacker's first name and addresses him so? By the way, despite the title of the song, the kidnapper in RR claims to be Rob Roy's son, not RR himself.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 05:06 PM

Of course it doesn't matter if you only want to sing a good story, but if you are seriously researching genuine ballads it's quite likely that this is one of the many fake ballads made up by collectors/antiquarians in the late 18th/early nineteenth centuries. Maidment gives no source for the ballad, and MacColl is hardly a reliable source. It could even be one of Peter Buchan's many concoctions. Maidment was closely connected with Peter.
It certainly doesn't ring true to me.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 05:40 PM

Just decided to read the whole thread and it looks like Toadfrog
15th July 01 is saying pretty much what I've just said. Is Toadfrog still around? If so please do get in touch. My email's on the Yorkshire Garland website.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:16 PM

Robinia: "Insufficient force" is certainly *one* attitude expressed in the song, viz. by the maid of Scalleter, who taunts Willy with that very "failing" ("couldna prove a man"). But I hope & believe that we are meant equally (and perhaps even more) to admire Eppie's *sufficient* force in resisting him. As I argued earlier in this thread, this song appears to represent a culture in which physical courage (and likewise, I should add, prowess & determination) are admired in women as well as in men. One could make a nice collection of songs about women who bloody well knew what they wanted & how to get it.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 05:17 AM

Of course it doesn't matter if you only want to sing a good story, but if you are seriously researching genuine ballads it's quite likely that this is one of the many fake ballads made up by collectors/antiquarians in the late 18th/early nineteenth centuries. Maidment gives no source for the ballad, and MacColl is hardly a reliable source. It could even be one of Peter Buchan's many concoctions. Maidment was closely connected with Peter.
It certainly doesn't ring true to me.
Steve,how do you define a genuine ballad?

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: GUEST,JeffB
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 10:46 AM

Aaaargh !! No Cap'n, don't go there! "Genuine ballads?" 'Tis a voyage with no safe port at the end of it, but endlessly drifting from our course in the doldrums of circlar talk. 'Tis a search for a rainbow's end, wi no chest of treasure to be found, but naught but a can o' worms.

Steve : Having never seen an original volume of Child's I don't know if he quoted his sources either. But before the great English song collectors at the end of 19th C, did anyone? Avoiding the question of "what is a genuine ballad", I am not sure how most of them can be dated. There are occasional references to what we now call ballads from the late medieval period (I am thinking of the 14thC - 17thC) which quote the names by which they were then known. If those names are the same as some which have survived then the assumption is that they are the same ballads. Whether or not that assumption is reasonable is another question. On balance I think so, but others might well disagree. And some are about historical events, so "The Battle of Otterburn" cannot be older than 1388, and "Kinmont Willie" not before the late 17thC (or whenever that raid on Carlisle Castle occurred). I suppose this kind of ballad from this approximate 300-yr period is your particular interest, and is what you feel to be the genuine article.

The question of "fake songs" is a very thorny one of course, and was recently discussed (and discussed, and discussed ... ) in the recent threads about Bert Lloyd's compositions. If anyone wants to revive it, perhaps it deserves it own permathread because this one will run and run. My own feeling is that there is no such thing as a fake song. And yes, when it comes to narrative song, I *would* rather sing a good story. Even if it could be proved that "Eppie Morrie" was written by Cole Porter I would still enjoy singing it, and would prefer to sing it in preference to the 150+ verses of "The Geste of Robin Hood". But there you are, different strokes for different folks.

As for "Eppie Morrie" itself, I suspect that the scene of action has been changed from an original one, but I would not care to guess its age. It would need an expert studying the original Mss available to Child for us to have an opinion as to a minimum age, and it would still be an opinion.

CarolMG : Have a look at Robinia's comment above. She has written/ is writing a dissertation of Rob Roy and Eppie Morrie. It's way above my head, so until I 've re-read it I cannot comment on it, but I am sure you will find it interesting.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 04:21 PM

JeffB

Steve : Having never seen an original volume of Child's I don't know if he quoted his sources either.
                      (He did)

There are occasional references to what we now call ballads from the late medieval period (I am thinking of the 14thC - 17thC) which quote the names by which they were then known. If those names are the same as some which have survived then the assumption is that they are the same ballads. Whether or not that assumption is reasonable is another question.            (I'd say IMHO that's reasonable, but only a very few are mentioned in this way and EM isn't one of them)

(Like Child I believe the 'genuine' ballads are those that spent some time after they were written in the repertoire of the common people.)

when it comes to narrative song, I *would* rather sing a good story. Even if it could be proved that "Eppie Morrie" was written by Cole Porter I would still enjoy singing it, and would prefer to sing it in preference to the 150+ verses of "The Geste of Robin Hood".
          (Absolutely and I would defend your stance with my life!)

But there you are, different strokes for different folks. (Absolutely, and didn't I say so?)

I would not care to guess its age. It would need an expert studying the original Mss available to Child for us to have an opinion as to a minimum age, and it would still be an opinion.
      (Rather conveniently there doesn't appear to have been a manuscript in this case. Child took it, like everyone else, from Maidment's book. And yes we can only express an opinion on it, and yours is as good as mine.)

Subject: Lyr Add: EPPIE MORRIE (from F. J. Child)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 07:02 PM

Child, Francis James. English and Scottish Ballads, vol. 6. Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1858, page 260f:

EPPIE MORRIE.
From Maidment's North Countrie Garland, p. 40.

"THIS ballad is probably much more than a century old, though the circumstances which have given rise to it were fortunately too common to preclude the possibility of its being of a later date. Although evidently founded on fact, the editor has not hitherto discovered the particular circumstances out of which it has originated."

[1] FOUR and twenty Highland men
Came a' from Carrie side,
To steal awa' Eppie Morrie,
'Cause she would not be a bride.

[2] Out it's cam her mother,
It was a moonlight night,
She could not see her daughter.
The sands they shin'd so bright.

[3] "Haud far awa' frae me, mother,
Haud far awa' frae me;
There's not a man in a' Strathdon
Shall wedded be with me."

[4] They have taken Eppie Morrie,
And horseback bound her on,
And then awa' to the minister,
As fast as horse could gang.

[5] He's taken out a pistol,
And set it to the minister's breast;
"Marry me, marry me, minister,
Or else I'll be your priest."

[6] "Haud far awa' frae me, good sir,
"Haud far awa' frae me;
For there's not a man in a' Strathdon
That shall married be with me."

[7] "Haud far awa' frae me, Willie.
Haud far awa' frae me;
For I darna avow to marry you,
Except she's as willing as ye."

[8] They have taken Eppie Morrie,
Since better could nae be,
And they're awa' to Carrie side,
As fast as horse could flee.

[9] Then mass was sung, and bells were rung,
And all were bound for bed,
Then Willie an' Eppie Morrie
In one bed they were laid.

[10] "Haud far awa' frae me, Willie,
Haud far awa' frae me;
Before I'll lose my maidenhead,
I'll try my strength with thee."

[11] She took the cap from off her head,
And threw it to the way;
Said, "Ere I lose my maidenhead,
I'll fight with you till day."

[12] Then early in the morning,
Before her clothes were on,
In came the maiden of Scalletter,
Grown and shirt alone.

[13] "Get up, get up, young woman,
And drink the wine wi' me;"
"You might have called me maiden,
I'm sure as leal as thee."

[14] "Wally fa' you, Willie,
That ye could nae prove a man,
And taen the lassie's maidenhead;
She would have hired your han'."

[15] "Haud far awa' frae me, lady,
Haud far awa' frae me;
There's not a man in a' Strathdon,
The day shall wed wi' me."

[16] Soon in there came Belbordlane,
With a pistol on every side;
"Come awa' hame, Eppie Morrie,
And there you'll be my bride."

[17] "Go get to me a horse, Willie,
And get it like a man,
And send me back to my mother,
A maiden as I cam.

[18] "The sun shines o'er the westlin hills,
By the light lamp of the moon,
Just saddle your horse, young John Forsyth,
And whistle, and I'll come soon."

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: GUEST,Entspinster.livejournal
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 02:25 PM

Note that the original has not "maid" but "maiden of Scalletter". From the first time I heard the McColl recording I assumed that the "maiden" was a female relative of Willie's-- perhaps an as yet unmarried sister. Maid as a job catagory is a secondary meaning, the primary mening is "virgin", as in maidenhead. Thus EM claims to be as "leal" (whole, perhaps, or loyal, chaste) as the maiden who has come in to patronize her. Female employees, though usually unmarried, were by no means always virgins! Also it would be truely insolent for a servant to speak to Willie as the maiden does, while a sister or aunt might get away with it. Why would a relative want Willie to suceed? Perhaps EM "came with" a "portion" or dowery of land or money? Willie apparently wants the rights of a husband, not just sex.

As for the mysterious "rescuer", my guess would be that two different singers added those verses to cater to mail vanity. Not pride or sexual disgust, but true love for another, prompts EM's heroism, they say. "Breadalbane" in one version comes after her. "Forsythe" in the second version is not on the scene at all, but EM promises to come to him-- perhaps that evening.

One might say that this song is the "flip side" of "The False Lover Won Back", where the man's lover refuses to be abandoned, and follows his horse on foot until he gives in and buys her a wedding ring.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 10:02 AM

One obvious interpretation of Eppie's conduct has been perhaps overlooked: that she is a lesbian. For her there can never be a Prince Heathen style ending.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Reinhard
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 12:04 PM

Yes, the usual and obious blaming of the victim. She doen't want virile, manly me, so she must be a lesbian.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 02:28 PM

Well said, R.

Most of this conjecture is pretty pointless without studying in detail the mores of earlier centuries in the Highlands. I personally know very little, but from what I've read 'bride stealing' was very common, and in some cases, not perhaps this one, almost ritualised. It may well have something to do with a tocher or inheritance but there is a lot missing from this thin dialogue.

The piece as a whole is very convincing and authentic-looking but so are many of the suspect pieces, like Kinmont Willie. Many sophisticated people in Scotland in the 18th century were obviously very adept at imitating the genre.

One key sentence being fully translated would explain a lot 'she would have hired your hand'.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 10:22 PM

Are there any homosexuals at all (female or male) in traditional song?

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 11:29 PM

no very rare imo there have been suggestion about "our captain cried all hands" but is a bit unclear just the statement for women to love each other, that could be platonic love

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Dec 20 - 07:11 AM

I think "hired your hand" should be taken metaphorically. The sense of the verse seems to be "if you'd done the business then she would have accepted you". Could it be a pun on "hand": hiring a (farm) hand in one sense, and taking his hand in marriage in another?

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Dec 20 - 08:45 AM

Hi Howard, I think the last option the more likely in view of the rest of the piece, but surely a Scots historian would give us chapter and verse.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Dec 20 - 08:50 AM

Just checked my Chambers Scots Dictionary and one of the meanings of 'hire' (v) is to accept/welcome, hence accept your hand in marriage.