CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 12 - 05:56 PM

Since the song seems to have come to us through Peter O'Toole, here's a clip of the man himself singing it with Richard Harris. "Fecklessness, sentimentalism and ruin, but still beautiful" seems to sum it up well enough.

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Mesmee
Date: 23 Aug 12 - 02:46 PM

Yes. You have interpreted the meaning of songs and poetry in general. I still think it is the tale of fecklessness, sentimentalism and ruin, but still beautiful. How? I'll think some more.... have another drink...

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 May 11 - 02:14 PM

Our best attempt at this song's history is in THIS "Origins" thread.

Regards

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 May 11 - 01:59 PM

Sorry - hadn't noticed these recent postings.

'Kilkenny' is in the earliest printed versions we have i.e. the broadside "The Young Sick Lover" referenced in O'Muirithe's book on macaronic songs. No sign of Ballygran in any shape or form

Regards

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 11 - 01:47 PM

Considering that most of the versions sung today seem to have emanated from a single source - Peter O'Toole via Dominick Behan - I expect that "Kilkenny" will be consistent (and, methinks, consistently wrong). It would be great to come across a published version prior to 1960, so we wouldn't have to rely on one man's memory of what he might have heard.

Meanwhile, I'll put my money on "Kilmeny," which clearly makes sense, rather than "Kilkenny," which just as clearly does not. ;-)

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: michaelr
Date: 09 May 11 - 12:33 PM

I'd still like to find a sung version that uses "Kilmeny". That would raise it above an intriguing speculation.

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 11 - 11:11 AM

Another note: Ballygrant was the center of an active lead and silver mining industry in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. There were at least four productive mines in the area. In 1880, mining came to an end there with the production of 38 tons of lead and 1,214 ounces of silver.

Might the original line be "With lead and silver I did support her"? It could make more sense and help date the song. Just a thought...

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 11 - 11:40 AM

Information on Ballygrant and Kilmeny church can be found here:

http://www.islayinfo.com/ballygrant.html
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1856958

"The water is wide" between Carrickfergus and Ballygrant, and the Ballygrant burial ground "in Kilmeny" has "marble stones as black as ink." Seems pretty straightforward.

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: michaelr
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:25 PM

Jack Maloney -- thanks for that. If your information is correct, it makes much sense that Kilkenny could be a red herring.

Are there any versions we know of where "Kilmeny" is sung?

Subject: Lyr Add: CARRICKFERGUS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:07 PM

If you look at geography, the 'mysteries' of 'Carrickfergus' are really simple and quite straightforward. Carrickfergus is a port on the north Irish Sea. Ballygrant is a village on Islay in the Inner Hebrides of Scotland, about a day's sail north from Carrickfergus. Less than a mile from Ballygrant is the parish church and burial ground of Kilmeny.

Given the vague oral tradition of the song, Kilkenny is likely a mis-hearing - in both time and distance, Kilkenny is three times farther from Carrickfergus than Kilmeny, and has no association with a place called Ballygrant, nor is Kilkenny anywhere near the sea. So let's apply Occam's Razor to the song, and go for the simplest explanation:

'Carrickfergus' is simply the song of a man and his memories of a love across the sea at Ballygrant in Islay - a love now recorded on a 'marble stone as black as ink' in the burial ground at Kilmeny.

Here's my guess as to what the lyrics to Carrickfergus should be like:

                I
I wish I was in Carrickfergus,
Only for nights in Ballygrant.
I would swim over the deepest ocean
To lie beside her, in Ballygrant.
But the sea is wide, I cannot swim over,
And neither have I wings to fly.
If I could find me a handy boatman,
I'd ferry me over to my love, and die.

                II
My childhood days, bring back sad reflections
Of happy times spent so long ago.
My boyhood friends and my own relations
Have all passed on now, like melting snow.
So I spend my days in endless roaming.
Soft is the grass, and my bed is free.
Ah, to be back now, in Carrickfergus,
On that long road down to the shining sea.

                III
Now in Kilmeny, she is recorded
On a marble stone there, as black as ink.
With gold and silver, I did support her.
But I'll sing no more now 'til I have a drink.
I'm drunk today, and I'm seldom sober,
A lonesome rover from town to town.
Ah, but I'm sick now, and my days are numbered.
So come all you young men, and lay me down.

-- Jack Maloney --

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 04:49 PM

No Jon Kilkenny couldn't be anywhere, and the writer I know definitely had been there many times, Dominic Behan. It's the old Medieval capital of Ireland and the only inland city. Beautiful city in the heart of Leinster in the south east. It's famed for it's black marble stone (hence the mention in the song)which fronts many of the city's pubs and churches, and most of the older stones in KK graveyard are made of Black marble which used to be mined in the nearby town of Castlecomer where I was born. Also the Rover in the song as the story has always been told locally was a Wandering minstrel, an English man from the north (not from KK) who made kk his last stopon his yearly rambles through the south, he hell in love with a KK lass and promised to return for her, it's unclear whether he didn't return or did return only to find her grave stone of Black Marble

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: harmonic miner
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 08:20 AM

"Now in Kilkenny it is reported
On marble stones as black as ink.
That with gold and silver I did support HER.
But I'll sing no more now till I get a drink."

Who is HER? It could be Kilkenny.

Was he some sort of benefactor to the cityor county of Kilkenny? Is there a monument somewhere in Kilkenny acknowledging his contributions?

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 03:33 AM

GUESTHarry

"There was a noblewoman" is a literal translation of the title of a set of verses in Irish which is sometimes sung as a separate song to the same air. The earliest definite evidence of "either" seems to be a macaronic (two-language) song called The Young Sick Lover. See THIS THREAD for more than enough about the song!

Can't help with the gender-bending aspect...

Regards

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 06:58 PM

The line Handsome boatman and in the last verse " come all ye young men etc ). I do not understand the ambiguity in the lyrics.
The singer is a man so why ask for these. Male singers usually change them to a" Handy boatman " and " come all you Maidens "
The rest of the lyrics suggest that he is not homosexual.
There is also a reference in the main wikipedia article of the translation of the Irish lyric to " There was a Noblewoman "
I am still perplexed.

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 07:40 PM

I wandered into this debate years ago now. I hadn't heard the song for years until it surprisingly appeared on the "Nights in Ballygran" episode of Boardwalk Empire (incidentally the best version of the song I have heard, by Loudon Wainwright III).

I think we attach our own meanings to these songs. That's the most important thing. However, it's clear for me that the narrator has probably never been to Ballygran, so it doesn't matter where it is. Ballygran is where the love of his life went to, and where he longs for in his reflections.

I like the idea that the song is about an itinerant worker who left Kilkenny for the North-East in search of work, like so many others. While working in Carrickfergus, perhaps the happiest time of his life, he met a girl who was from, or who left for Ballygran. She was the one that got away. He regrets not chasing her, hence his longing to cross oceans to find her. Did he have a choice to follow her? Was she stolen from him? Who knows. He's old now, and reflecting with a sense of sadness and regret on his life. He never went back to Kilkenny. There's nothing for him there as all his childhood friends and family are now passed away (black marble reference). But he'll sing about the happier times when he's had a drink ... and then when he's had one too many ... he'll probably sing Carrickfergus again :)

Carrickfergus could be anywhere, Ballygran could be anywhere, Kilkenny could be anywhere ... it really doesn't matter that much. Carrickfergus is as nice a place as any for such a beautiful song.

Jon

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 11:31 AM

Re. "Only for nights in Ballygrant.." question. When I first heard this song fully in English (I'd heard Sean O' Se with the bilingual version before), and was able to work out what the words were most likely to be, and recognised the kind of impression of incoherence to which McG of H refers, and then heard several other versions and variations, and long before I'd been told of Mudcat, I eventually came to sing it thus:

"I wish I were (or, "wish I had you") in Carrickfergus:
Only for nights in Ballygrant
I would swim over the deepest water
The deepest water, my love to find.
But this sea is wide, and I can't get over,
Nor have I wings, that I might fly;
Then I will find me a handy boatman
To ferry me over, O my love, to die"

That is, "only for the fact that I'm perpetually drunk, or otherwise occupied, in Ballygrant, I'd do traditional heroic deeds (like swimming "the Suir, or Slaney, or the Shannon any day") in order to meet with my love." The next four lines can be taken either literally - the sea is too wide to contemplate swimming (that's why it's "deepest water" earlier, by the way), so I'll need a boatman in order to cross, or metaphorically, in that the singer's days are over (or numbered) and the sea to be crossed is no earthly one. Obviously, in order properly to bring in an allusion to Charon, the ferryman of Greek myth, it can't be "sea" since we'd be talking of the River Styx or a Celtic equivalent (Lough Derg anyone?), but then of course the words could be altered to "The water's wide.." - ah, but that's another song.

Additionally, how many verses do each of you sing, and in what order after this first one?

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 07:28 AM

That may be so, but I assure you the black marble reffered to in Carrickfergus, definitely refers to the Black marble produced in Kilkenny Ireland, I should know, I was born there. It may also as someone has suggested refer to a grave stone as most of the older stones in The main KK graveyard are of Black marble, though the stiry as I've heard it re the songs, goes that he died after promising to return there to settle down with the lady in question.

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:02 AM

I always thought maybe he got poleaxed with booze in Ballygrant - thus incapacitated - the water seems very wide. Intimidating.

He knows were he to cross, he would not be a very prepossessing sight. thus the water gets wider and more forbidding, and the distance between being the man that his woman fell in love with seems wider.

The void between them - more hopeless and impassable.

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:17 AM

Don, you haven't read all the thread. You're point has already been dealt with.

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: Girl Friday
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 11:55 AM

I vote for black marble tombstones, which are commonly engraved in gold or silver.

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 05:43 PM

Sounds reasonable.

Another interpretation that I've heard is that the word is "hansom," not "handsome." A hansom was (is) a two-wheeled horse-drawn carriage in which the driver sits above and behind the cab. One could often hire a "hansom cab" in the same way one can now hire a taxicab. Still can in New York City for a pleasant horse-drawn tour through Central Park. Considered very romantic.

So according to this interpretation, a "hansom boatman" is a boatman whose boat is for hire.

Your mileage may vary. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: Gurney
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 05:20 PM

I missed the best synonym. Seamanlike.

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: Gurney
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 05:12 PM

Handsome is a word that has changed meaning. It was originally used at sea to mean competent, workmanlike, proven, a good 'hand.'
The sort of man you'd want at the oars.

Makes sense of the old saying, 'Handsome is as handsome does!'

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 10:39 AM

"Marble stones as black as ink".

Champlain Black marble from the Isle La Motte quarry on the island in Lake Champlain, originally developed by the Vermont Marble Company. More often called "Radio Black" because of its use in Radio City Music Hall in New York City.

Peter

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 08:07 AM

The Story of this song I heard in Kilkenny a few years ago from a cousin of Christy Moore. The rover in question was it seems and English man, a bit of a wandering minstrel, possibly had seved in the army in the north. He would of on his travels each year winding his wawy down through the country usually finishing up in Kilkenny. (hence the various place names) There he fell in love with a local woman and promised he'd come back to settle down with her.

The story seems to end there, presumably he died or she did, more likely him. The Marble stone as Black as ink, most likely refers to the fact that Kilkenny county lies on the finest Lime stone deposits in Europe and is famed for it's black marble, mostly manufactured in my home town, nearby Castlecomer (no longer produced) and much of the architecture in Kilkennny particularly the great Kilkenny pubs, feature fine examples of black marble, the churches. Whether it's a true story, well? It's a well known one in Kilkenny and I like to think it might be true. A very fine song though

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Alexander, Sofia, BG
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 07:00 AM

oh could it be "only four nights"..? Not that this make a lot more sense...

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Alexander, Sofia, BG
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 04:00 AM

Incredibly beautiful song, indeed!

Can someone please explain to me the meaning of "only for nights in Ballygrant"? I mean just a moment ago he says "I wish I was in Carrighfergus" and then suddenly [he wants to be?] in Ballygran?

Sorry if this is a dumb question but English is not my native language... :) PLEASE someone explain this to me it really bothers me that I can't get the meaning of this line :)

Interestingly - I also thought (like Margaret) that the marble is for her tombstone.

And regarding the "handsome boatman": in many traditional slavic songs (Russian, Bulgarian, Serb) describing the moment of a hero's death or funeral the lyrics describe them being surrounded by beautiful/handsome people (be it male or female). I just drew a parallel between these songs and the "handsome boatman" above: I suppose in folk songs this is just a means of making -- an otherwise -- sad and even ugly event a little more acceptable...

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 01:25 PM

Further to my last post and after reading others it's worth adding a couple of points. Couple of people rightly point out that the term 'Handsome' long ago oftenmeant not good looking but very good or adept, growning up in Castlecomer In can recall a particularly good musician being referred to as 'a handsome fiddler' and the fiddler in question being far from good loooking.

A few other people refer to the song Peggy Gordon as a possible source of the 'Marble stone as black as ink' I think that's very doubtful. Firstly I'm fairly sure Peggy Gordon is of Scottish origin, secondly the late Luke Kelly in his own words is attributed as discovering in while visiting a Folk club in wolverhampton around 1967 (just 3 miles from where I am now) and brought it back to Ireland and popularised it, so much so it's often classed as an Irish song there. And finally as one who performs Peggy Gordon often, I've never seen a line mentioning Marble stone. Of course there are other versions I might not have seen. By the way there is now a very fine mining museum in Castlecomer with a fascinting, often moving virtual reality tour, proud to say many of my family worked down in the infamous mine

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 01:09 PM

Well, I can give you the definitive answer on this, as I was born in the town of Castlecomer, in county Kilkenny. Referred to in the song. castlecomer was indeed a mining town up to the early 70's when the mines closed. But the 'marle stone there as black as ink. relates not to a grave as such. Kilkenny city is built on the finest limestone resource in Europe, and many of it's 55 pubs and Churches feature very fine marble floors and frontages, often black marble. and indeed many graves in local cemetaries are built of black marble, as black as ink indeed

The story of the song Carrickfergus I've heard a few times from local Kilkenny musicians. They tell of an Englisman, a rover, something of a wandering minstrel and a playboy. possibly from the north, who would go on his travels down the country, no doubt romancing the ladies on the way. Kilkenny was apparently his last stop and there he fell in love with a lady who he promised to return and marry. The story goes vague from there but the gist of it seems to be he wandered off again and if he did return it was too late, for the lady had died in the famine most likely. Whether it's true or just another Irish folk tale, well who knows. There's also something of a mystery as to who wrote it and when. The tune very likely is and old trad one, but as a song most research has Dominic Behan as the Writer in the 1960's. Either way Kilkenny is a marvellous town and well worth a visit. Best examples of the Black Marble is The Marvel City Bar in the High St, and The ancient Black Abbey off Parliament St. I'd also highly recomend Ireland's longest runnng trad sessions, every Momday night in the World famous Cleeres Bar

Desi C
The Circle Folk Club
UK West Mids
WV14 9JH
For info mail [e-mail]

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Mesmee
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 12:41 PM

Hi again
I meant Menzze's post 3.26am, not the later one.
Mesmee

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,Mesmee
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 06:08 AM

In song, the effect of the words and their relation to the music make their own meanings.

I'm thinking of how I perceived 'The Mountains of Mourne' and 'The Galway Shawl' before I saw them written down. The words with the music are not literal as they are without. They rather support a mood for a narrative.

Obscurity adds resonance, mystery and and romance to this song. It doesn't matter literally about the stones of Kilkenny, which create a beautiful, remote and nostalgic image. They could be a rambling thought, an inconsequential memory which is sorrowful and uplifting simultaneously. He is dying, he will never see them again.

I like Sean O Se's version best, it makes more sense of the drunken ramblings theory, 'With gold and silver I paid for porter', but in relation to the gaelic version 'Did support her' is probably more authentic

Final imaginative idea, 'With gold and silver could relate to an abandoned sweetheart left with a child, and he a feckless father stricken with maudlin guilt.

In the end I think Menzze (Feb 2001) got it dead right, and he said it so much more simply than I

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: meself
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:06 PM

This thread is becoming as enigmatic as the song itself ..

Subject: author
From: GUEST,wolfy 1
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:40 PM

american not irish

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:37 PM

my old granda tommy once told me of the song carrickfergus [gods country]

Subject: RE: CarrickfergusMeaning:marble stones as black as
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 11:43 PM

Apparently my last post was not clear. I was referring to the You Tube Clip cited by weelittle drummer on 02 feb o7 - 1:18 AM, which is no longer there.

Doc

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:24 AM

Pennsylvania was not only known for their coal but also for their slate. Munson slate is about the highest North American quality slate in this country. Highly prized for roofing & flooring even used it commands a high market price as supplies & outlets are dwindlling. Black Munson is still available but very costly & is the best quality of slate to be found nationally.

Barry

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: Doc B
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 11:30 PM

This response is beyond tardy, since I just found the thread. Hope it's not too late. I ran across this video a couple months ago, but damned if I can find it now. Has it been taken off by Clancy and Makem or has it just ran it's course? So much for bookmarking. Sure loved this particular performance though. The poem seems to fit the lyrics perfectly amd make sense of the general story behind them.

    Does anyone know where I can find this
particular video?

Doc

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 01:27 PM

Pretty cool!

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: Scrump
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 11:23 AM

I'm sure Val is a terrific guy, by the way, its just that bit that got on my tits

And that feckin' awful rockin' chair he used to sit in - how lazy can you get?

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 11:18 AM

Here's a YouTube clip with Liam Clancy singing the song - and Tommy Makem saying the poem.

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 05:05 AM

I will say that though I learned this song from Val doonican, he really used to irritate me every week when he came on telly in his jumper and told us, with evident self satisfaction, that he was a handsome rover from town to town.

Alan Bennet's lovely essay about Louis MacNeice and his beautiful poem about his home town, made me think about the song. and watching the Clancy's on video really sold it me.

I'm sure Val is a terrific guy, by the way, its just that bit that got on my tits.

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 07:47 PM

I got the guys name wrong - not Naylor - don't know where that came from. I went to Liam's website ten minutes later someone posted this message. I kept thinking James Naylor - but that's Quaker saint.


HIGH AND LOW

He stumbled home from Clifden fair
With drunken song, and cheeks aglow.
Yet there was something in his air
That told of kingship long ago.
I sighed -- and inly cried
With grief that one so high should fall so low.

He snatched a flower and sniffed its scent,
And waved it toward the sunset sky.
Some old sweet rapture through him went
And kindled in his bloodshot eye.
I turned -- and inly burned
With joy that one so low should rise so high.

-- James H. Cousins

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:04 PM

Anyone got a copy of the Oxford Book of Irish Verse handy to gve us that poem mentioned.

And I think that's a way of understanding the song I'd wholly agree with, and it's beautifully put there by weelittledrummer. By that I mean it'd be a great one to keep in mind when singing it.

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,billbunter
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 01:55 PM

Handsome is often used in old texts about both men and women. In this kind of context it surely just means appropriate, dignified, lusty, an equal, an adjective used as in the Homeric type of use? For example, WINE DARK sea. The adjective always appears before sea just as handsome would almost always appear before any man or woman who you thought fitting. Although that 'swift' and 'handy' has an appeal too.

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:05 PM

MacGrath I believe you have some of it. I've always thought of it as a death song. His life as a rootless drunk, trading in his youthful good looks is wearing thin. Drink makes him inert, he cannot cross over.

Anyway if he crossed to his true love, he is not the same man she loved. Drunk today and seldom sober, the marble stone is what he will lie under before too long.

The Clancys used to introduce this song with a poem that made the meaning very clear. i wrote to Liam and he told me it was by a man called Naylor and from Oxford book of Irish verse.

The poem and the song fitted beautifully.

A haunted song like Robert Johnson Stones in my Passway.

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 07:03 PM

People trying to make a coherent story out of this seem to me to be missing the point. No doubt there is a song at the back of it which does have a coherent story - but the essence of the song as it's sung, in all it variations, seems to me to lie in its rambling imprecise nature.

Incoherent, defiant, sentimental, a wreck of a song, most effectively sung by a singer who is somewhat wrecked themselves, but still in good voice.

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 06:56 PM

Sorry, just found the transcription on the "origins" thread...I can only say, it's a terribly long thread :)

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 06:26 PM

I love this place! I was recently given a recording with the sean o'se version and have been trying to decipher his words since. The note about "The young sick lover" is a godsend, that is very close to the line o'se uses in his second verse.

ni fada on ait sin (gu?) baile cuain

I would love to see an irish speaker post a transcription, if they could...I haven't seen it on any of the carrickfergus threads. I don't speak myself, but as a singer, it drives me up the wall to not "know"!

On a personal note, I do some occasional rummaging on session.org, and it is so pleasant to read a thread that's not full of bile and venom. I have my own strong feelings about music, art, and culture, and I can't stand that people feel the need to denegrate one another when they argue their points.

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 07:05 PM

The lines I've known since childhood are:

a) "And in Kilkenny, it is reported/The marble stones are as black as ink"

(referring to the black, red-veined, beautiful marble that they have there)

and

b) a *constant* rover from town to town.

The "handsome" version arrived later; either it was a mis-hearing by singers or else they were awfully fond of themselves.

Subject: RE: Meaning: 'marble stones as black as ink
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 09:10 AM

Dear John, I'm sure ther must be lots; Tom Paxton's Bottle of Wine springs to mind, but perhaps that should be a different thread.
All the best
Robbie