Folklore: What Is Folk?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Dan Themsan
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:04 AM

Since you do not tell us what you sing, how can we tell?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 05:43 AM

I don't do any Bob Dylan songs so am I still a folk singer?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 04:10 AM

Walter Greaves did it on his bike.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Hans Detman
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 03:46 AM

If u have no car its Horsemusic.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: PHJim
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 12:08 AM

FOLK is a four letter word that starts with "F", ends with "K" and if you use it, they won't play your songs on the radio.


If it takes more than two trips to get your gear from the car to the stage, it ain't folk.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 04:56 PM

Rules cut both ways: "That is not folk" - "Yes it is!" - "That is folk." - "No it is not."

The rules are what they say. The program is what they do. Say as you do; do as you say, is not human nature. Sooner or later, everybody feels entitled to a little bending &c.

As a discographer, I've seen the same old, familiar bins at every retail outlet and bootsale every year. Buyers & sellers find them useful starting points. The internet & lecture hall are mostly nonsense.

And, it's not unusual to see inventory shifted from one bin to another. What was once folk or bleeding edge rock & roll might be in the oldies section by now... same music.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Dan Themsan
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 01:29 PM

Creative musicians in the Folk world do not put as much or hardly any energy into improvisation, compared to Jazz Musicians, Songwriters put their energy in to writing songs not improvisation, you are talking Boloney
audiences do want to know what they are going to get, they do not expect to go to a Folk Club and have a whole evening of Rock and Roll and they are the ones who pay the piper..
On the positive side Folk Clubs provide the opportunity for home made music.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Roderick A Warner
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 01:09 PM

Creative musicians in my experience don’t tend to waste their energy on labels and artificial barriers, rules and the restrictions of others… thankfully…

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 12:35 PM

I have no problem with a Blues club calling itself a Blues club.
I have a choice I go or I go somewhere else.
I have no problem with a club calling itself an Acoustic Music Club or a Fiddle and Accordion club or a Singer Songwriters club, they have rules and people know what to expect.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 08:27 PM

Steve: Surely you've read about...
The 15-16th century Howe! Hissa! (Shanty) and Sea Shanties from 'The Complaynt' (1549)?
The Royal Navy fife and fiddle capstan songs sailors worked 'in silence' to?
The 'proto'-shanty?
Tomatoes?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 06:23 PM

She was a poet, called Hazel Bolton, sadly she is not with us any longer

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 06:14 PM

reading back up the thread to 2005, the student who asked us to do their homework for them got rather more than they bargained for.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 06:12 PM

Our choir sometimes uses the brown book published by OUP of folk song settings. Can't say that that really feels like Folk (not 'folk the way I like it' at any rate)

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 05:18 PM

Well, Phil, that was as clear as mud...

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 01:11 PM

On the other hand, a scholarly analysis of the last thousand years of...

Yup: A tomato is a fruit or a veggie depending on the speaker & subject. If it's an instructor saying [X] is or ain't [Y]… it is, or it ain't. End of discussion for the them chasing a sheepskin.

Regency dance tunes that doubled as capstan songs were both “work” and “pop” before either genre label or school of academics was in existence. Any speaker/scholar is/was free to:
a) Retroactively assign the entire millennium to a late 19th century (sub)genre.
b) Process instrumentals as stone silence.
c) Create an entirely new 20th century (sub)genre for the thousand year gaps of their own creation.

Any listener will have no idea what the labels actually mean until they've heard the speaker out. There are no assurances all or none of it will apply to the next speaker.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 05:48 PM

"Walk in to any library on the Dewey system and you'll find Beethoven shelved under Classical."

Well that's right. You'd also find Palestrina, Gesualdo, plainchant and Hildegard of Bingen, as well as Michael Tippett, Britten and even Gershwin under the same category. Maybe even Harrison Birtwistle. When I did a course on plant taxonomy at university we were taught that classification was there to serve several purposes, and the same body of plants could be categorised in a variety of different ways according to to the user's need. No one system of classifying music can be set in stone as the be-all and end-all. There's a limit as to how much you can atomise the classification of music genres before you make your system useless to library users. On the other hand, a scholarly analysis of the last thousand years of "classical music" will break it up into much smaller categories, a classification system which, among other things, helps to elucidate the evolution of music down the centuries. When I walk into the library I want big categories to direct me quickly to the right ballpark of bookshelves. After that, even alphabetical might cut it...

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 03:44 PM

Oy...

Speaker+Listener+Subject = (sub)genre. Nobody speaks for both sides of the convo (obviously) and the music just plain does not care. Labels are worse than useless if you're not even in the right book, much less on the same page.

If just one person in the audience knows the true copyright history of a song and everybody else is ignorant of same... you'll get two genre for one performance of one song by one artist.

Walk in to any library on the Dewey system and you'll find Beethoven shelved under Classical. Same for a brick & mortar record store. Romantic won't have a bin unless it's a specialty shop.

Silly thing is, I dont know anybody that actually uses the labels for themselves. 99.9% of the folks I know file their own collections all jumbled together and shelved by media, then alpha-by-artist.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 03:15 PM

And what about Benjamin Britten's folk song arrangements (as sung by Kathleen Ferrier, for example)? Surely every folk singer "arranges" his or her songs according to their predilections? I'm not bothered but I'm just sayin'...

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Rigby
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 02:29 PM

So are Beethoven's arrangements of Scottish folk songs folk?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 01:38 PM

It's better than his hair living in your living room and ruffling his bust!

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 01:29 PM

He's my hero, and that's good enough for me! His bust lives in our living room and I ruffle his hair every time I pass him.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 01:21 PM

So was he classantic or romical?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 01:09 PM

Beethoven was the bridge between the classical and romantic eras in music.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Dan Themsan
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 12:47 PM

How would you describe Beethoven, as a Bluegrass musician?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 12:46 PM

so if i record John Cage 4'33 and call it folk, it is something completely new and exciting..."

Well if you record it and take 4'34 over it, you CAN call it folk, because it'll have been through the folk process!

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 12:39 PM

I `ad that Jan `adlow from the BBC in my cab once. The Radio Times reported she `ad been earmarked to produce a series of programmes about traditional songs and music, their origins and background and she was looking to interview as many people in `er opinion `oo could provide some kosha info.
I said, " Morning Jan. Broadcasting `ouse again?"
She said, "Yes please Jim. Oh, by the way Jim you and you`re lot `ave been doing trad songs for years. `av` you ever come across situations where certain songs `ave been the cause of a Bull and Cow?"
I said, "Well yeah. I remember some punters decided to do a club in "The Chequers" pub near Uckfield. They settled on "`ands Cross Traditional Music Club", very original. It was also decided, in order to maintain their trad. ideas, that potential singers material would be put before the committee to ensure it met their requirements."
She said, "That sounds novel. `ow many people fitted the bill?"
I said, "None, it folded after a couple of weeks!!"


Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 12:19 PM

Right well, that's obviously hit home then. You can't educate a cabbage.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 12:18 PM

Do speak up...

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 11:19 AM

HA HA, YOU ARE RIGHT b

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 10:14 AM

"Beethoven is considered a Classical composer, you agree?"

Er, I don't entirely...

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 09:59 AM

I don't dislike anything, Dan. And if you read my post more carefully you will see I did not say that any clubs insisted on traditional songs sung by traditional sings. I said that there were those who did and I apologise for not making it clear that I meant in discussions such as this. My reference to clubs was entirely separate and you have confirmed that some did have their own rules. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 08:36 AM

Nick Dow, night did become day, Dawn occurred. the timing varies but it happened.
Anyone that says that it did not happen is deluded.
Beethoven is considered a Classical composer, you agree?
Earl Scruggs is classified a Bluegrass Banjo player.
A. L. Lloyd or Bert Lloyd, was an English folk singer and collector of folk songs, and as such was a key figure in the British folk revival of the 1950s and 1960s.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 08:32 AM

> When does night become day?

My inner pedant insists: Depends how far West you are (one degree of longitude Westwards is four minutes later), and how far North (sign and magnitude are season-dependent). (See also the Wikipedia page on the Equation of Time, if you're that bored, for how noon wanders about during the year.)

Meanwhile, back at the Subject line, a judge once (approximately) said: I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it. I think the same holds with folk music; hence the persistence and vituperation of the arguments.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Dan Themsan
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 08:22 AM

" There used to be those who insisted that it had to be a traditional song, sung by a traditional singer".." Dave the Gnome
I have never come across a club that insisted that it had to be a traditional song, sung by a traditional singer, you have made that up.
          There were a few clubs that insisted that it was traditional music only, they generally called themselves Traditional clubs, the policy was clear, Those clubs never excluded Revival singers from singing traditional songs and there was plenty of choice of other clubs with different polcies
The Singers club had a different policy again, but it was clear.
No one was obliged or forced to go to any of those clubs., there were blues clubs where blues was the order of the day
There is a club in Croydon which is a folk and blues club, and a different club called Croydon Folk Club, are you against a club that specialises in Blues? or is your dislike of policy or rules applicable to trad music clubs?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 07:12 AM

When does night become day?
At Dawn Today in the UK it was 7 48.
Who told you that?
Did you believe them? It might have been 7.50 down the road and 7.48 up in the next county.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 05:33 AM

I am not searching through years of Mudcat posts, Dan, but I can assure you that even on here there were comments like pop singers can never sing a folk song and popular music should never be sung in folk clubs. I am also assured that there were folk clubs where the rules were explicit about what could and could not be performed. Although, to be honest, I never cwme across one. May have been before my gime

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Dan Themsan
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 05:01 AM

" There used to be those who insisted that it had to be a traditional song, sung by a traditional singer". quote.
Can you give examples.
I do not care who it is for, I like performing certain material.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 04:33 AM

It's always a tough one. When Granny's Attic sing "Does your mother know?", is that folk? When Ed Sheeran sings "The parting glass", is that folk? There used to be those who insisted that it had to be a traditional song, sung by a traditional singer. Fortunately we now seem to have a much broader church. While I do not believe that "anything goes", I am glad to see that mainstream performers, writers and media are seeing that folk music is indeed for the masses and not for an exclusive group of enthusiasts

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 04:02 AM

What is folk (music and song) such a difficult question to define!

Is it Country or is Country music a close brother/sister?

Is folk Rock based on folk music/song?

What is contemporary folk song, that is songs for example written in the traditional folk style and copyrighted so that performance fees can be made to the composer ~ is this "folk"?

I ask only and make no decisions

Ray

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Dan Themsan
Date: 26 Jan 23 - 03:40 AM

When does night become day?
At Dawn Today in the UK it was 7 48.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jan 23 - 08:40 PM

A few hours after day becomes night.....

I think it avoids a lot of verbal bloodletting by saying to each individual: it is up to you what you think folk is, as it is up to me what I think it is.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 02:57 AM

Ah but is folk music in particular song and music for the singers (of), the audience, the academics or the pub landlords to sell beer and promoters to profit

Whoa

Ray

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 07:01 PM

Here's to subjectivity! You might not know what it is, but are pretty sure what it isn't! Works for me, and several generations of singers.
Just remind me. When does night become day?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 05:29 PM

All 'genres' are artificial constructs, convenience labels, that overlap with many other genres. All that is useful is a list of characteristics some of which for 'Folk' are admirably listed here, and on other threads. Trying to set hard and fast boundaries is pointless for this very reason.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 12:27 PM

so if i record John Cage 4'33 and call it folk, it is something completely new and exciting,
well of course every perfomance of anything is new, whether it is exciting is in the ears of the beholder and a subjective decision.
"you can stick 'Folk' on the end of any genre and you've got something completely new and exciting,,,"
pseudo-intellectual. pompous TWADDLE.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 11:08 AM

BBC Radio 4 news has a go at defining folk.
;)
One of the comments was
"you can stick 'Folk' on the end of any genre and you've got something completely new and exciting,,,"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001h3yy

> skip to about 38:40

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 10:40 PM

Jeez how many more times will there be enough bored and sufficiently anal catters to go through all this again.
Folk music is what I say it is you are all wrong and so am I.
The constant navel gazing about it is a waste of energy just go somewhere and do it.
If we all spent as much time writing and performing and listening to the stuff as we do discusing what it is we might have some decent music on the radios and Tv,s of the world instead of the stuff that gets out there because there is a dollar to be made by some person who neither write perfoms listens or cares what folk music is.
Next topic
WHich is the best guitar to buy?
I allready own......Blah blah blah!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 07:51 PM

Captain Birdseye, if you have to ask whether something is a potato or not--well, you deserve whatever the fellow gives you;-)

At any rate, I like what Frank Hamilton has to say--I am very interested in the things that are derived from tradtional/folkloric sources-

I also make careful note of this comment "I'm off now to play some music, in a variety of styles, at my local session. And no one will care much what the source of the music is"-as it seems to be true that those who are part of a living tradition define the tradition as something that exists in the present--even though they may be aware of it's past, and also of what is and isn't part of the tradition--

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 05:51 PM

why, Cecil! And I have always held you in the highest esteem! *grin*

"music is music".....indeed! So if I advertise a concert saying there going to be "music", you'll be right over?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What Is Folk?
From: GUEST,Cecil.J.Sharpe
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 05:31 PM

I'm buggered if I know, or care for that matter music is music man!!!! 'When it hits you feel no pain' Bob Marley, folk singer