If you like Nic Jones you'll like Damien Barber

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 04:35 PM

Does this mean I win the argument, Dave the Gnome? Or is this just a truce. I would be glad to see you in the Buff Orpington (Homeplace of Nic, therefore holy - Orpington, not the Buff Orpington, which is a pub.) I apologise for my lack of sophistication. I try my humble best though.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 09:25 AM

Definitely not a win Ian. A truce would certainly be nearer the mark. An agreement to disagree is probably the right term! Work on the sophisticated insults and you will get tehre evntualy;-)

And don't get me started on Ballet, Guest. Mind you I must admit I like to watch it on the radio...

My idea of hell would be an opera singer squawking jazz noises with some demented tart prancing up and down in what is laughingly called modern dance! Makes even bagpipes sound inviting...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 06:27 AM

Guest 10th Feb 03. I have been listening to the blues for a quarter of a century. The British blues boom of the early 60s is amost unlistanble now. The original artists, however - Tommy Johnson right through to Muddy Waters - have a timeless quality. Will we be listening to Chris Smither in 50 years time? ofcourse, for those of us who cannot take our blues pure, maybe these white carbon copies serve a purpose.

Guest, yes. I found your remark about jazz sounding like a fire in a pet shop priceless. I assume you have listened to Ornette Coleman?

Anyone thinking that this thread has deviated from its original subject, I would like to say that Tommy Johnson's name is mentioned and as a guitarist he is as fascinating as Nic. So if you like Nic..... you will like Tommy Johnson.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: Pied Piper
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 07:56 AM

Oo, oo.
Can I join in.
If you want to here how jazz arrangements can fuck up a good trad tune click Here, scroll down to the tunes in Blue and click on Rakes Of Mallow.

PP

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 08:55 AM

I didn't believe it. But it's there. I have just listened to Rakes and been damaged forever just knowing that a human person could produce such an arrangement.

We just got to bring in capital punishment.

Spot.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 09:06 AM

On the other hand, you could do worse than check out "Africa/Brass" by the John Coltrane Quartet and listen to their version of Greensleves. It's very beautiful, better even than Vaughan Williams' version. Let us not also forget the classic recording "Folk Roots, New Routes" by Shirley Collins and Davy Graham. I'm not much of a fan of Shirley Collins. Her voice is too precious by half, but she did participate in some important recordings, including this one. Traditional songs, for the most part, are given jazz influenced arrangements by guitarist Davy Graham. It works and works well. Davy was at home in the blues, in jazz and in folk. Check out The Complete Guitarist on Kicking Mule and listen to a master of the insturment.

Jazz can be good sometimes....honest. Oh yeah, and to keep the thread consistant, if you like Nic Jones, you'll like....Davy Graham. Or maybe, if you like Nic Jones, you'll like...the John Coltrane Quartet.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: Les from Hull
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 11:44 AM

Ian - true what you say about the British Blues Boom and the original American artists. But I would like to say that the best female blues voice I ever heard was Jo-Ann Kelly. And a pretty good arranger and guitarist too.

So if the 'original' folk recordings brought us Nic and his singing, arrangements and guitar playing, would you allow Jo-Ann a place in the stars?

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:41 PM

Les,I know Jo Ann Kelly's name but, sadly, I don't know the music, so I can't say. However, I see your point. Just because something has been recorded before - and Nic only recorded tried and trusted traditional songs - doesn't mean it can't be done in a fresh way. My only experiance with white blues has been negative and that has coloured my opinion. The good thing about the blues boom of the early 60s was that it developed into rock music, heavily influenced by the blues, but not blues. Eric Clapton got far closer to the essence of the blues when he sang Layla than when he re-recorded Crossroads. The blues also influenced 60s UK folk music in a way I don't quite understand:open-tuning,I think. Also Nic's singing, which was a little behind the beat, was influenced by West Coast rock music. So if you like Nic Jones you'll like....West Coast rock music of the 70s.

See how I always bring these digresions back to the main theme. Incidently, I have reviewed Penguin Eggs on Amazon, so if y'all want to pop in and give me a positive vote (or a negative one if you think I am talking shit), feel free.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: sharyn
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 09:44 PM

Once again, Guest Ian, you really ought to give Chris Smither a good long listen before you blow him off. He has mastered the guitar styles of Mississippi John Hurt and several others. He has energy. He has taste. He has deadpan humor. He has a great voice and he is absolutely steeped in traditional blues repertory. It doesn't sound like you are willing to listen to him at all, but I shall be listening to him until I have no further hearing. I'm sure you will regard this as heresy -- I like Nic Jones just fine and like listening to him, but I don't think he is God.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 05:43 AM

"He has mastered the guitar styles of Mississippi John Hurt and several others"

So why not listen to Mississippi John Hurt and the several others? Sorry to sound pendantic but the great blues artists sounded like noone except themselves, which is why they sound so great 70 years after they made their recordings. Nic Jones doesn't sound like Martin Carthy, he is distinctly Nic. Nor do I thik he is God. I merely think he is the greatest performer that English folk music has ever produced.

After saying all that, I went to Amazon to check on Chris Smither. There are quite a few people who fully agree with you. I can't play the musical samples because, for some reason, my PC wont accept the download, which sucks, so I still don't really know what he sounds like. Sharyn, you have me intrigued.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: Stewie
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 09:36 AM

Nic Jones was good, but so too is Smither. He is a first-rate singer, guitarist and songwriter. Do yourself a favour: stop pissing around with trying to get musical samples, buy his 'Live As I'll Ever Be' CD and judge for yourself before dismissing him. Smither is not a blues artist - he is predominantly a singer/songwriter - but when he chooses to interpret a blues song, he does so with consummate artistry. And Smither sounds like Smither.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: sharyn
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 10:20 PM

Hey, Stewie, I disagree with you. I think Chris Smither is primarily an interpreter of songs, with a heavy emphasis on traditional blues, but including songs by Dylan, Poco, Roly Salley, etc. He does write, but he is much too good to label a "singer-songwriter," the kiss of death in my book (and by the way I sing and write songs, too, but I had far rather be labelled a singer than a singer/songwriter -- you can just use the "writer" word if you want, separate from the "singer" word). Many so-called singer-songwriters can't write their way out of a paper bag.

And, Guest Ian, Stewie's recommendation is a good place to start with
Chris Smither. I'm curious: what do you think of Richard Thompson, another gifted guitarist and interpreter of traditional music -- he hasn't recorded a lot of it that I know of, but he does sing things like "Bogie's Bonnie Belle" in concert.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: Stewie
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 01:14 AM

Hi Sharon,

If you prefer, he is a writer who sings his own songs. I can judge his live performances only from his 2 live albums, the latest of which has 11 out of 13 Smither songs. During his entire recording career, there is only one album - 'It ain't easy' - that has more covers than Smither originals:

'Live as I'll ever be'          11 out of 13 are Smither songs
'Drive you home again'          7 out of 11 are Smither songs
'Small Revelations'             8 out of 11 are Smither songs
'Up on the lowdown'             6 out of 10 are Smither songs
'Happier blue'                  6 out of 12 are Smither songs
'Another way to find you'       10 out of 18 are Smither songs
'It ain't easy'                4 out of 14 are Smither songs
'Don't it drag on'             6 out of 11 are Smither songs
'I'm a stranger too'            7 out of 11 are Smither songs

I think it is fair enough to say that he is predominantly a writer who sings his own songs, at least in respect of recordings.

I am not sure what you mean by 'traditional blues'. But, if you mean recordings of songs by people like Skip James, Willie McTell etc, Smither has recorded a total of 6 in his entire recording career - a couple more if you count Chuck Berry as blues, which I don't. I wouldn't say that was a 'heavy emphasis' on blues. But, I don't know how he structures his live performances - maybe these have a 'heavy emphasis' on blues but, if so, that is not reflected in his choices for his latest live compilation 'Live as I'll ever be'.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: Stewie
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 02:24 AM

Sharyn, my apologies for misspelling your name in my previous posting.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:56 AM

Sharyn,

"Many so-called singer-songwriters can't write their way out of a paper bag."

Oh go on, name names.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,LesB
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 12:30 PM

Hi, I am perplexed as to where this thread is going. Nic Jones was a great interpreter of, primarily, Traditional songs. With a very English feel about him. Chris Smither, I am given to understand, is a singer / songwriter & interpreter of contemporary songs with an American feel. I fail to see any comparisons.

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: sharyn
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 02:51 PM

Les, "The Blues" is a traditional American folk form (also found in West Africa and other places) and Chris Smither is a master interpreter of this form. I initially drew the comparison because I think Chris Smither has made blues accessible through his performances in the same way that Nic Jones made some English traditional music accessible: they are both talented singers and guitarists, easy to listen to.

Guest, no need to name names: get thee down to thy local open mic populated by singer-songwriters or go listen to something like an event hosted by The Northern California Songwriters Association. You will hear many godawful tuneless things that don't scan and should have been left in the shower along with yesterday's grime. People who write songs owe it to themselves and the public to listen to them carefully and critically before they inflict them on listeners -- some things may be cathartic or hypnotic for the writer but that doesn't mean we need to hear them. I tend to respect writers who have steeped themselves in tradition and who write well. There are many.

Stewie, I don't have all of Chris Smither's albums, but every one I have has at least one classic blues: "Statesboro Blues," "No More Cane on the Brazos," "Duncan and Brady" (much better live), "Dust My Broom," "Big Boss Man," etc. His live shows are laced with blues and covers and he can make anything sound good. He also plays a blue guitar. He is too smart to play just Chris Smither songs.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,IanofOrpington
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 02:55 PM

LesB, we are trying to drag this thread into interesting territory. Contributors were naming names no-one had heard of and care even less about. To mention these non-entities in the same sentence as Nic caused my blood to boil, the red mist to descend before my eyes, my fists to clench, and to scream obsenities at the top of my voice while shaking my head in despair at this utter and shameful sacrilege. In short, talking about Chris Smither (whoever the hell he is) must be better than talking about some non-entity dragging his guitar case and harmonica stand around the tatty folk clubs of England performing to a dwindling band of jaded folk farts. Nic is a master. We stand in awe as he strides English traditonal music like a God. We bow down before his brilliance. Only other masters - Carthy, Swarbrick, Simon Nicol- should be mentioned in the same sentence as him. I hope this has cleared up your perplexity, LesB.

By the way, since I was born and brought up in the birthplace of Nic, please note my name change.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: Stewie
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:23 PM

Sharyn, 3 points in relation to your response. I have all his albums except the early one that was never released - 'Honeysuckle Dog' - and 6 blues covers in 9 albums tells its own story. 'Ain't no more cane' and 'Duncan and Brady' would not be embraced by any definition of 'blues' that I am aware of - worksong and ballad respectively is how I would categorise them. I made no suggestion that Smither sang only his own songs.

Ian, although I certainly don't 'stand in awe' or 'bow down to his brilliance' or say that he strides anything 'like a God' - at first, I thought you were joking, but the last bit looked a tad serious - Smither is every bit as skilful and moving as Jones, and so too are dozens of other performers. Wipe the other mist from your eyes and come back to the real world where, as someone sang - Gaughan, was it? - there are no gods and precious few heroes.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,LesB
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 09:17 AM

Ian, your dragging this thread into hero worship territory. Just because you are ill informed about othr worthy artists there is no need to consign them to non-entity land.
Cheers Les

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,IanofOrpington
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 05:04 PM

LesB, you are missing the point. Look at the name of this thread. If you like Nic Jones, You'll like...someone of equal worth, presumably. The names being mentioned are not the equal of Nic and therefore there is no reason that if you like Nic you will like the names being mentioned. I do not hero-worship, but I do admire consummate artists who rise above the average. Nic is one such artist. If my language is a little gushing then I do apologise, but I do not apologise for my sentiments. Nic is not a worthy artist, he is one of our very best.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,IanofOrpington
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 06:31 PM

To amend the above, I perhaps should have said that "Nic is not just a worthy artist, he is one of our very best."

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: sharyn
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 09:39 PM

Les, FYI: "Duncan and Brady" is classified as a "blues ballad," a narrative form derived from the blues, just like "Stagolee." I repeat, Chris Smither sings primarily blues in his concerts, with a heavy sprinkling of cover songs and a minority of Smither originals.

Other matters: I think "Dick Gaughan" is a good answer to the question, too: he is a masterful interpreter of traditional song and a fine guitarist -- for me, the sore point is his writing. Did Nic Jones write much? Does anyone know? (Ian probably does). Not that I care much, one way or the other, but I am curious.

And I have another American name for the list: Jody Stecher is a multi-instrumentalist, an accomplished singer and a fine interpreter of traditional song. He performs and records solo, as a duo with his wife Kate Brislin in various old-time bands. Oops, and another, the singer-guitarist Larry Hanks should be on the list, too.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: Stewie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:37 AM

Sharyn, however way you try to twist them 'Stagolee', 'John Henry', 'Casey Jones' etc, as performed by black artists, are still survivals of the ballad tradition, not blues. The only black artist that I have seen 'Duncan and Brady' associated with is Blind Jesse Harris, and he was a songster. Just out of interest, on how many live performances are you basing your statement that Smither sings mostly blues? I am curious because a friend recently returned to Oz from a year in England. She sent me a poster from a Smither concert that she attended there wherein he performed mainly his own songs. I'll bow out of this now.

Cheers, Stewie.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,IanofOrpington
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:21 PM

Sharyn. Like you, I love Dick Gaughan's interpretations of traditional or other people's songs, but I have real difficulty with his song writing. It is not a talent he has. He also likes to thrust his political views down your throat with the subtlety of a heavy metal balladeer. This is the reason I have not bought any of his recordings for the last 20 odd years. His earlier recordings that were available on Topic, and which I still have on vinyl, are superb. Like Nic, he has a wonderful combination of singing and guitar playing.

As far as I know, Nic has only written three songs. Two appear on 'In Search of Nic Jones' and they are called Ruins By The Shore and Green to Grey. These are both ecological songs, so if you are a greenie then you should approve of the sentiments. They are not the greatest songs on Earth but they are okay. Nic doesnt disgrace himself. However, like Dick Gaughan, perhaps he is a better intepretor than songwriter. The third song appears on 'Unearthed' and is called Rapunzel. It is a love song based on the nursery song. Again, so-so. Three non-essential songs from two essential CDs.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: sharyn
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 05:21 PM

Stewie, do a little research on Afro-American blues ballads. There are a lot of them: some, like Poor Lazarus, originate in worksongs; others, like Delia and Duncan and Brady originate in current events. I believe Mississippi John Hurt sang "Stagolee" and many others were collected from Black singers in Texas prisons. They are often amalgamations of Anglo-American ballad tradition and Afro-American blues, hence the name blues ballads.

Re: Chris Smither: I see him everytime he comes to town -- about once a year for the past several -- and I listen when he talks about other places he has played and what he has played there. I'll start keeping a set list if you like. Record companies often favor songwriting because they think it is more "original" or "creative" than cover work or work in traditional genres. Some non-record company people think this, too. Not me.

Sorry for the thread creep,folks, Just trying to answer questions raised on this thread.

Now, who else should Nic Jones' fans listen to?

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: Stewie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:08 PM

Sharyn,

Fair enough. Obviously, his live appearance playlists are not reflected in his recording career. As for categorisation, I have done plenty of reading on the blues over the years, and I disagree with you.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,IanofOrpington
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 01:41 AM

Hey, Sharyn. I've managed to download an audio play-thingy from Amazon and have heard a little of Chris Smither. I take back what I said. He does sound good and he does sound a bit like Nic. It's his percussive, rhythmic style. So....if you like Nic Jones, you will like Chris Smither. (hee, hee.) Have you made it up with Stewie yet? I have a copy of Palmer's Deep Blues but I haven't read it yet so I can't join in the argument.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: sharyn
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:28 PM

Thank you, Ian, for letting me know you appreciate Chris Smither. I haven't heard any more from Stewie. Who else do you like to listen to?

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,IanofOrpington
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:56 AM

I think Stewie has gone off in a huff. I listen to lots of stuff, but I love the acoustic guitar and I listen to lots of that, Mainly british folkie stuff and american blues. (I love american folk-Ochs, Paxton, Hardin, Lightfoot, etc.-but they concentrate on the actual songs more than the playing, although the playing is fine enough.) So my fave folkies are Nic (ofcourse), Dick Gaughan, Bert Jansch, John Renbourne, and Davy Graham. My fave blues guitarists are Tommy Johnson, Skip James, Robert Johnson, and Blind Blake. I also love classical guitar and love Julian Bream.So if you like Nic Jones..you will like all the above. So Sharyn (love the way you spell your name, by the way)who else doyou listen to?

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: sharyn
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 01:18 PM

Well, Ian, I am a singer, although I play a bit of guitar and some fiddle, so I listen to a lot of singers and vocal groups. You know about Chris Smither now and Dick Gaughan. I like Finest Kind out of Canada quite a bit -- they're not always on, but when they are they are magnificent (their British stuff is better than their American stuff). I like some of what Martin Carthy does and a lot of Richard Thompson's stuff in all genres. My favorite local band was called Out of the Rain -- they sang a lot of traditional songs in three-part harmony and played some Irish tunes. One of their founding members, radriano, is on Mudcat, so you could get more information from him, if you like. Cindy Kallet is a wickedly good American guitarist, singer and songwriter. Carol Denney, a friend of mine, is a respectable guitarist and an ace songwriter and has several recordings. Who else? I like some of Kate Rusby, some of June Tabor, some Archie Fisher. Christine Primrose. Janet Russell and Christine Kydd. And classic Scots singers including Jeannie Robertson and Lizzie Higgins. Enough? I also like Bach, particularly the Brandenburg Concerti, Handel's Messiah and bands with lute players.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,IanofOrpington
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 10:29 PM

So Sharyn, we know whom you like, but as a singer and as a musician, who has influenced you? Like you, I'm a fan of Martin Carthy-a truly authentic voice in folk music. I have a friend called Les Elvin who plays folk music. He's very good. He does the local clubs in the South London area. By the way, Chris Smither is coming to the UK. I think I might just go and see him and find out what the fuss is all about. Love Bach, but cannot stand Handel's Messiah.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: sharyn
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 01:33 AM

Who has influenced me? Loads of people. The earliest recordings I heard (at ages two and up) were folksongs from ten-inch records by Burl Ives, Bob Atcher, Susan Reed and Terry Gilkyson. Probably the Beatles next. Then I had a Joan Baez phase (and heard my first Dylan songs from her). Then Joni Mitchell. Then I discovered Ewan MacColl and all but wore out my Classic Scots Ballads record. Then I went off to folklore school and heard Jeannie Robertson, Mississippi John Hurt and classmates who sang and played as well -- although no one who wrote. Later there are all the locals I've mentioned. And in my thirties someone introduced me to the music of Richard Thompson. Besides that I sang choral music and hymns in a musically literate episcopal church from age ten to twenty-two or so, choral music in school, and did a year or so of voice lessons singing standard soprano repertory. I'm sure all of that music has influenced me: the early stuff gave me a taste for traditional song, Ewan MacColl and Jeannie Robertson taught me a lot about traditional singing style (Dick Gaughan also) hymns gave me a great exposure to harmonization and the songwriters and guitarists taught me a lot about writing and arranging. Whenever I hear Chris Smither or Martin Carthy play I think "I should get serious about guitar."

Negative influences, too: after an exposure to opera (my Mom loves it) and jazz I've thought, "I'll have no more of that."

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: Fay
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 04:15 PM

I just love the way this thread has traveled from saying how wonderful Damien is to a huge argument! He would approve greatly - of both!

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,sid the ferret
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:49 AM

to get back to the subject...please(!)
      it's highly likely that if you enjoy listening to Nic Jones Chris Foster will fit the bill nicely.He's done three recordings (two deleted)A guitarist/singer in a similar style but not too derivitave.Nic must have approved 'cause he appeared on the first record(fiddle).It's called layers ,I'm sure I heard of a japanese company doing a limited edition re-issue.worth a check --honest.

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:43 PM

No, I'd much rather talk about how wonderful Damien is!
Everyone knows how good Nic Jones was/is. But not nearly enough people have seen the brilliant Demon Barber Roadshow yet .   And Fay & Damien as a duo will be bringing their startling harmonies to Islington Folk Club on 1 April. Hooray!

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: GUEST,sid the ferret
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:26 PM

time to start a new thread, countess? I suggest,Damien Barber,His life & work;your starter for 10!

Subject: RE: If you like Nic Jones you'll like.....
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 12:27 PM

John Wesley Harding has a very good album out called "Trad Arr Jones". It's not a pale imitation of life as Harding manages to put something of himself into too.
Martin Carthy is an (obvious) nomination, as is his daughter, Eliza.
Jez Lowe's a remarkable musician, whose laid back style reminds me a little of Nic Jones for some reason.
Have never met him, but Nic Jones would probably think it silly of someone to say you wont enjoy an artist if they aren't considered as great as Nic.