Help: Butchering the viola

Subject: Butchering the viola
From: GUEST,Lena in a it-cafe'
Date: 15 Feb 01 - 11:11 PM

Hey everybody.This time I'm afraid I'm really going to get goosebumps on every fiddles who'll read this... I did it.I went on my viola with sandpaper and took the varnish away.Because I wanted to paint on it.Now,the sketch of the thing is there on the instrument,but there comes the series of problems... first:to paint on it,i'll have to lay a very thin layer of woodglue as a base for the medium.Will that ruin the wood a lot?!second:after I paint on it,I'll have to lay some varnish back on.the usual one(co[[al?!something that name...)is too brownish and would alterate and spoil the colours.but the oil varnish I was thinking about ,Liquin,(linseed oil and other waxes and stuff)is not stiff enough.Someone told me polyurethane... I can't ask a liuthist,he'll have a heart attack and chase me out of his workshop. So,any mudcatter has a better suggestion?!
thanks as usual
Lena

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: Gypsy
Date: 15 Feb 01 - 11:18 PM

Gee, and i had this vivid mental image of it on a gambrel, hung up by it's tailpiece, dripping strings off of the neck, and weeping tears of rosin. And as for the evisceration...oh, never mind. Anyway, ask Spaw about this, he is stout of heart, and should have good advice. In my experience, wood glue is pretty inert stuff, and should do fine. I am presuming that this is not a terribly expensive instrument. Try lacquer on a scrap, and see what it does to your paint. If it works, that will be a nice stiff finish. Perish the thought, but i HAVE finished inexpensive instruments with poly coats, and they do fine.

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Feb 01 - 11:18 PM

DON'T USE PAINT!!! Use a colored stain, and then several coats of LIGHT varnish!! Paint, per se, will kill the sound. Colored stain should permeate the wood without killing the viola. Use several coats of very light varnish, rather than one heavy coat.......be SURE you allow all coats to dry thoroughly.......and don't use too many, as too much varnish will "kill" it too. You might look into shellac instead of varnish,........maybe Rick Fielding or spaw will know about this.

I just hope this was not your Only, Primary Instrument.....you should try stuff like this with the cheap pawn shop stuff.........Lordy, the stuff people try!

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Feb 01 - 11:25 PM

Hi Lena.......my e-mail is [e-mail]

Send me a note and I'll return you instructions for an simple fix. A couple of questions you can answer here or in the e-mail..............How large an area are you "painting" and is it on the top or on the back/sides?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Feb 01 - 11:33 PM

Oh, Gypsy, what an image!! I am with you now.......poor viola, on a moving conveyer belt.....first the tailpiece and strings, next, the belly........last of all, remove the soundpost and bass bar. Then process into Soundburger.......a totally non recognizable form of Modern Music........aaaarrrrggggghhhh!!! LOL!!

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: GUEST,CraigS
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 09:08 PM

OK, they call it "varnish" on the violin family, but it's really a shellac-based polish like French polish. While I suspect that Spaw will give you good advice about how to seal the area you want to paint, and follow up with how to get specialist polishes to finish the job, I'd like to add that reading a library book on how to French polish and then practising with a bottle of Button Polish on a scrap piece of wood will help get the best finish on the instrument.

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: GUEST,Lena
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 01:38 AM

So,a very thin,varnish-diluited oil colour wouldn't do?! The table is the painting area.It was a cheap instrument,but I'm still hoping to make it sound.I just had to do it,anyway...you know,when you absolutely want to try...I love that instrument,though(believe me...)and I'm concerned lots about the outcome...how about,then,watercolour?!Thanks so much for your advises.I'm still sort of scratching my head...Lena

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: Gypsy
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 12:23 AM

And how do you plan on cooking it, once it is butchered? Is this your ONLY viola?

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: GUEST,Lena
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 05:55 AM

Cum'oooon,don't be that nasty!!!It's my only viola,yes,but when Lena decides to paint on something she won't be able to stop herself from doing it.So,the only thing I can do is to do the best job possible....

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: Naemanson
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 08:07 AM

GOD HELP LENA'S PARTNER! *BG*

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: GUEST,Lena
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 09:31 PM

He helps himself,donuorry...

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 09:31 PM

G'day Lena,

Are you still hanging on in Sydney, despite unsympathetic authorities? (I have not been at the Shannon sessions lately due to a persistent ear infection that does nothing good for my singing.)

If you want some local first hand information from instrument makers who may have applied varied (and sometimes sacreligious) finishes to instruments and won't come the full strength "God revealed the true varnish to Cremona and all else is the work of the Devil!" story, I can give you a few contact numbers about Sydney.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: Lena
Date: 19 Feb 01 - 02:12 AM

I won't be at this week's session in Syd,but I'll be at the Shannon next week and it's going to be my last session for a while(usual weird life twists:back in Europe for some weeks).If you think you might not make it,please I'd like to have someone to talk to about my poor butchered thing,so my address is
[e-mail]

As for the Cremona thing,my painting teacher's husband was a 100% cremona-bred liuthist.But he told me once that sound is an abstract concept,a magic.No rules,you just make it happen.(Even if you end up sanding a viola...).

Hope everything fine
Lena

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: Gypsy
Date: 19 Feb 01 - 10:48 PM

Sorry Lena, your thread title was just too evocative to pass up! Anyway, you WILL post a picture so that we can see the beauteous transformation that Lena hath wrought, when you're done, yes?

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Feb 01 - 10:52 PM

...........or what's left of it. Show us the carcass anyway and clean off the barbeque sauce first.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: Gypsy
Date: 19 Feb 01 - 10:59 PM

'Spaw, i thought that you sauteed a viola, lightly? Isn't it rather delicate for a barbeque?

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Feb 01 - 11:23 PM

actually I think the smaller and younger ones cook up best. We did a double bass last year and the sucker was tough and stringy as all hell.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: English Jon
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 04:06 AM

Dont worry too much about the effect of the finish on the sound. The only thing to bear in mind is that the wood has to be able to vibrate a bit, so heavy gloss paint won't do you any favours. Having said that, apply it thinly and it won't sound significantly different to a lot of student instruments with indifferent varnish.

Proper oil varnish (basically linseed oil/gum arabic and a bit of oil based colour) is used for good fiddles because it has little particles that vibrate freely with the wood. I.E. it protects but doesn't constict the movement of the table too much. Hence I would suggest using oil paint (or alkyd), applied fairly thinly with a fair amount of linseed oil as a medium. Ground the instrument with Tung oil, and you should be fine. Finish with a thin coat of picture varnish if you like (oil based, not polyeurathane!) and you should have quite a pretty instrument. Might be fun to experiment with applying different colours in layers, see if you can get that irridescant "flamed" effect that you get on posh fiddles!

Have fun, and remember. If it sounds horrible, you can always strip it back to the white, and it'll be fine.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: Lena
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 08:27 PM

Thanks Jon,just what I badly needed to know!!!And thanks so much as usual to ya all 'catters,for the fun as well-Lalena

Subject: RE: Help: Butchering the viola
From: Lena
Date: 02 Mar 01 - 04:19 AM

So far,folks,it sounds better than before the butchering!!!!!!!!!!