Acoustic Pickup help...

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup help...
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 11:07 AM

Thanks for the detailed post Don. I've suggested on numerous occasions to Festival artistic directors that instead of the usual "hot licks, songs of the road, acoustic styles, etc. they let me do a workshop on "knowing your instrument, understanding Mikes, and learning to communicate with your sound person". Never seems to be much interest, but I think it's crucial.

Sometimes players forget that for most sound people, Rock and Roll is their bread and butter. If you want good sound you have to be able to communicate what you want. Just saying "can I have a little more uhhh, 'presence'" just doesn't work.

Rick

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup help...
From: GUEST,Rhythm Man
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 10:13 PM

Lane,

Too bad I didn't get here sooner with the best and most simple solution. Better late than never:

Buy a Takemine LTD!

Rhythm Man

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup help...
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 10:38 PM

From old memory, my ear is now so poor at high frequencies that I can't adjust a sound system anymore. Omnidirectioal mikes can kill you with all the stuff they pick up, audiences as well the performers. Two cardiods mounted one above the other and aimed at 45 derees each side of center will give you mostly what's in the half sphere that's centered along the line between them (and don't pick up the monitors like the omnidirectionals do). With super cardioids you can narrow the field down a bit more from 180 degrees.

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup help...
From: Lane
Date: 10 Mar 01 - 12:12 AM

Rhythm Man

Well.... thanks, but I just bought my Martin.... buying another will have to wait. I am beginning to regret not buying it with a good pickup installed...but so goes it...I'll have to make do with my SM58, I guess.....

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup help...
From: GUEST,cariboumark
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 06:48 PM

Lane,

The SM58 is world renown as a vocal mic... but that doesn't mean that it can't sound good as an instrument mic. The rub is, live vs. Memorex. I use 58's live for everything from soup to nuts. Not my first choice in many cases, but its what I have when mic-ing various bands. They have a "presence" (which means they are biased to pick up frequencys) at around 10k, good for some vocals, but probably accounting for your "twang".

For recording to a 4track as a hobby, you can do better than a 58, but can get surprisingly good results with an hour or two of experimentation.

I wasn't kidding about crawling around in front of your guitar with your ear searching for the Martin's "sweet spot"... it has one (probably several). Once you find an interesting spot... on the lower shoulder, below the neck is a favorite, or the rear bout by the pin... stick a mic on it and see how it sounds. As far as using 2 mics... I wouldn't be afraid to try it, but the problem you have is when the sound that one mic is picking up is 180 out of phase whith the other. Those mics will cancel a certain frequency(s) out.

If you haven't looked at www.nomadland.com yet, do! The equipment specs have some great ideas. Basicaly, the idea of blending (not as in Fishman, which I don't care for, I'll explain later) taken to a very high level. The highs from one type of pickup EQd out and blended with another type of pickup thats had the lows EQd out. Sound reinforcement, and recording is a compromise... it aint never going to sound as good as your Martin, just find the best "recording" sound, and the right "live" sound and pull them out as needed. Listen to any Ani DiFranco record to hear this... she compresses the hell out of her Alverez, cuts all the highs out, and its got a great bite! Its not the best example of "How a guitar is suposed to sound 101" but it suits her playing.

Some posts earlier mentioned some tecniques and gear... my 2 bits... stay away from the Fishman blender, good theory, bad sound. You would be miles ahead by going the full stereo route into seperate pre's and EQ's. The other Fishman pickups, the Rare Earth in particular, has been wonderful to work with. The best non-pro set up I've worked with was a guy named Sean Michael Devine, who used a Sunrise pickup into an inexpensive (Boss?) 7 band stomp box. He records himself alot, and just gives the soundboard a good sounding signal from the stage.

As far as condenser mics on stage, I use them. Usually in conjunction with another mic... a Byerdynamic M88, as a stereo pair. No problems with feedback, unless the bright face of the guitar was turned off-axis just the right angle to reflect the monitor into the mic... rare.

I have to agree with Don, above... I would install a pickup, and fade it in just enough to compliment the mic-ing... but I wouldn't install the thinline, I'd wait untill I had the cash for a Sunrise and quality pre.

Rick has some sage advice as well, find a tutor whos guitar sound you like... and rip 'em off.

By the way, I almost never mic the soundhole.

This has been a fun discussion... thank you all.

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup help...
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 08:37 AM

Good input here, even if it does go way beyond what Lane was looking for (that's not a problem, is it?). For Lane's application, I think a 57 or 58 will do the trick just fine.

I agree with Rick that, for live "plug in and play" versatility, the Fishman Rare Earth Blender is the best guitar pickup I've yet come across -- fairly natural sound, excellent feedback resistance (I generally go with about 75% pickup/25% mic, but in high-octane situations I dump the mic altogether and just use the pickup). I have them installed in both my Lowden and my Larrivee, and run both through a Tech 21 Acoustic DI to the board (great piece of gear; it smooths the rough edges nicely). The DI also has a 1/4" line out that I run to a Carvin AG100D acoustic guitar amp for on-stage monitoring. The key to this is that I can have my instrument monitor separate from my vocal monitor, and position it differently so as to hear it better and reduce feedback potential. I often play out with a fairly loud acoustic/electric band, and it helps to have the vocal monitor right in my face, but the instruments can feed back if they are also coming at me from the same monitor ("in my face" is pretty close to "in my soundhole"), so I have the Carvin monitor/amp coming at me from the side.

As an aside, count me with the people who really don't like the under-saddle piezo pickups. These seem to have become the norm in amplified "acoustic" sound these days, unfortunately. Last night I caught a portion of a program on public television showcasing Irish musicians performing at the Kennedy center, and despite the quality of the performances and the upscale nature of the gig, most of the string-instrument performers sounded like they were snapping rubber bands. With all the technology at our disposal these days, we can certainly do better than that!

As for more critical recording applications, I am continually experimenting, and I find that different microphone techniques work better for different instruments, playing styles, and the needs of the song. For instance, on some songs (solo fingerpicking guitar pieces) I might want a big, full, round acoustic sound; one technique for this is to mic the neck/body interface fairly close (6 inches, more or less) with a small diaphragm condenser, and then have a large diaphragm condenser positioned further back from the lower bout (maybe 18" away). In other cases I might want a transparent, shimmery rhythm guitar sound (with less "woof") to lay in the track and support other instruments; this might work better with a basic X/Y mic technique about six inches out from the neck/body interface, as described by Carol's Friend Don in a posting above. Sometimes close miking is better, sometimes getting a little distance helps; sometimes cardioid patterns are more intimate, other times you might find that a figure-eight or omni pattern sounds more natural. We're talking about the quest for tone here, which is a lifelong endeavor whether you're doing it with playing technique, with microphone selection and placement, or both.

Sorry to go on so long, but this is a topic that interests me greatly these days -- hope my insights are useful to somebody.

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup help...
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:19 AM

Excellent post, Whistle Stop.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup help...
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:47 AM

This has been a great discussion.

I agree that the Fishman Rare Earth pick-up has a great sound. It does sound a bit electric to me, but it has such a good sound it's OK. My rare Earth does not have a mic blender.

I have a Larrivee Jumbo with a factory installed Fishman Matrix, and it sounds great. I don't know why it sounds much better then most pick-ups, but it does. Maybe the combination of the guitar's characteristics and the pick-ups strengths just work well together. But ever since I started using that guitar on-stage, every guitar player I meet comments on how great the guitar/pick-up sounds.

I understand the comments about a guitar's sweet spot. When I was in the studio, the recording engineer spent some time figuring out where his mic placements worked best. In fact he used several mic/tracks for each guitar track. When I used my Larrivee he also captured the output from the pick-up. Typically he used either four or five inputs (the fifth being the pick-up).

I have gone back to using a mic on stage for banjo and for my high strung guitar. That makes it possible for me to use both pick-up and mic on my Larrivee when I am playing it. I also find that it is very difficult to run the sound from the stage when there is more then one performing. It is possible, but distracting. Good sound is so important to the success of a performance, and if I am concerned about the sound, I am not giving my best effort to the performance.

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup help...
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C)
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:57 AM

Found one of them!

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