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Playford Question Related threads: doing Playford right (18) (origins) Origins: Compleat Dancing Master (9) Playford Tunes ed.Jeremy Barlow (26) Lyr Req: Compleat Dancing Master: The Triumph (12) Prince's air (Scott? Playford?) info pls (9) (origins) Origins: Parson's Farewell (Playford? Praetorius?) (11) Playford, et al. (10) |
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Subject: Playford Question From: Mick Lowe Date: 18 Feb 01 - 05:29 PM Here is a question for you wise ones.... I have found several references stating that the tune "St Patrick's Day" appeared in Playford's. Once of these was by that noted scholar Dr George Petrie, though he doesn't say which edition. I have only managed to get hold of the 100 odd tunes that made up the first 4(??) editions and can't find anything that sounds as though it might be the same tune... so. dear friends.. Anyone got a complete set of the 500+ tunes or better still, know which tune the likes of Petrie et al were referring to? Thanks Mick |
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Subject: RE: Playford Question From: Jeri Date: 18 Feb 01 - 05:58 PM I have the 1985 Faber "The Complete Country Dance Tunes from Playford's Dancing Master," and it's not in there - at least not by that name. If it's under a different name, I could look for it if you gave me some of the notes. (DD/EDEG...) I'm unfamiliar with the tune. |
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Subject: RE: Playford Question From: Snuffy Date: 18 Feb 01 - 07:43 PM X: 42 T:St Patrick's Day M:6/8 L:1/8 N:Irish Jig K:G |:D| G>AG GBc|d>ed dBG|A>GA BGD|E>FE E2D| G>AG GBc|d>ed dBG|A>GA BGD|E2F G2:|d| def g2e|f2d e2c|def g2e|fed e2g| def g2e|f2d efg| G>AG GBc|d>ed dBG|A>GA BGD|E2F G2|| |
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Subject: RE: Playford Question From: SingsIrish Songs Date: 20 Feb 01 - 09:56 PM Mick, my love, As per the detailed email I just sent you I found the Playford tune to be "Never Love Thee More"--first appearing in Playford's Vol 1, 6th edition (1679) and being included in editions 8 - 18 thereafter... Source: http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/ We'll pow-wow on this more in our next chat! Cheers! Mary |
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Subject: RE: Playford Question From: SingsIrish Songs Date: 20 Feb 01 - 10:09 PM I should have said above that the "original" tune appears to be "Never Love Thee More"--here's the abc file for anyone else's comparisons/feedback... Cheers. Mary
X: 45 |
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Subject: RE: Playford Question From: Jeri Date: 20 Feb 01 - 10:20 PM I did look for it and didn't find it. Mary, yours looks very different from the one Snuffy posted, but there's probably more than one "St Patrick's Day." |
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Subject: RE: Playford Question From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 20 Feb 01 - 10:21 PM As Mick L. knows, I think that "St. Patrick's Day" was composed by James Oswald. An ABC of both the 4/4 and 6/8 jig parts from his 'Caledonian Pocket Companion', bk 11, c 1759 (the earliest copy known according to 'Sources of Irish Traditional Music', 1998) are in file T1.HTM on my website. "I'll never love thee more" has long been one of my favorite 17th century tunes (which is not a very long list). There's an ABC of it in the broadside ballad tunes on my website. In the Scarce Songs 1 file there are early manuscript copies of the song and its twin, "The blazing torch is soon burnt out". They both seem to date from c 1624. Alas, neither manuscript copy had a tune or name one. The tune was known as "Montrose Lynes" and "Chevy Chace" in Scotland (see the Scots tune index on my website for those.)
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Subject: RE: Playford Question From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:21 AM The tune of "I'll never love thee more" on my website is from John Gamble's MS, c 1659. There's a web-playable MIDI of it in the Broadside Ballad Index-B228. Two of the three extant broadside copies of "I'll never love the more" (ZN1795) are on the Bodley Ballads website (Rawl 190, Douce 1 101). They have different titles and tune directions. The Rawlinson copy is to the (unknown) tune "O, no, no, no not yet" (song, broadside and Percy Folio MS = ZN3192). I've crossed referenced songs related in text to "I'll never love thee more" 5 now in my broadside ballad index-see ZN1795|. "Montrose Lyns (lines by Montrose)" are in Watson's 'Choice Collection' and Herd's 'Scots Songs'. The 17th century Scottish broadside ballad of "Chevy Chace" (ZN982|) was to the tune of "The Yle of Kyle (Kell)". James Dick in 'The Songs of Robert Burns' said "The Isle of Kell" was the same as "Hardy Knute". The "Hardy Knute" that he gave (corrected from Oswald's CPC, where it's on the same page as Scottish "Chevy Chace") is quite unlike "I'll never love thee more". I've decided that I don't believe him. "The Isle of Kell" was more probably the same as "I'll never love the more". "William and Margaret" is on a broadside without music, (Zn2816|) but with tune direction: N.B. -This Ballad will sing to the Tunes of Montrose's Lilt [I'll never love thee more], Rothe's lament, or the Isle of Kell. The ballad is set to a florid version of "I'll never love thee more" in 'Orpheus Caledonius'. I've now added ABCs of that and 3 other Scots versions (including Oswald's) of the tune as T205A-D in ABC file T2.HTM on my website. [Three other "William and Margaret" tunes I have don't seem to be related to "I'll never love thee more"] I suspect that "Chevy Chace", song and tune, were originally from Scotland, but I'll probably never find any solid evidence for it.
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Subject: RE: Playford Question From: SingsIrish Songs Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:10 PM Bruce, Jeri and Snuffy, Mick and I are researching "St. Patrick's Day" (tune used for Moore's "Prince's Day" more commonly known as "Tho' Dark Are Our Sorrows"... George Petrie (as Mick mentioned above) stated in the introduction to his Collection of Ancient Music of Ireland, that "Patrick's Day" although collected by Edward Bunting in his own collection, was more accurately contained in Playford's "Dancing Master", but didn't give an original title nor edition--hence our search. Mick has been going through the information from your site, Bruce (he seems to find more than I do LOL) as part of the research. Thanks for the summary of info! It will help sort out what we are looking for. Thanks Jeri and Snuffy for your input. The ABC I posted is the abc of the Playford tune...and thus would sound different, but seems to be the origin of the "modern" tune "Patrick's Day" that Petrie was referring to without giving the answer away. LOL Now, let's see what Mick's feedback is to all this. Cheers and Thanks everyone! Mary
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Subject: RE: Playford Question From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 21 Feb 01 - 06:14 PM Names of all tunes in all editions of Playford's 'Dancing Master' are listed in the file CNTYDAN1 on my website. There are none with 'Patrick' in the title. |
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Subject: RE: Playford Question From: SingsIrish Songs Date: 21 Feb 01 - 07:11 PM We didn't find any Playford tunes with "Patrick" in the title either--we suspected that the tune Petrie refers to in Playford has a different name. From what I've managed to listen to in abc formats, and by comparing music notation, "Never Love Thee More" seems to be very similar--ie musical phrases that match. Bruce, I think this case might be similar to that of the "original" melody you and Mr. Robinson found for "Londonderry Air"--have to listen closely to hear the similar musical phrases, though "Never Love Thee More" seems more evident to me...especially when you slow down the tempos. What is your opinion on the melody comparison of the two tunes (Never Love Thee More and St. Patrick's Day), Bruce? Feel free to email me if it is easier. Mary SingsIrish@email.msn.com |
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Subject: RE: Playford Question From: Mick Lowe Date: 21 Feb 01 - 08:36 PM Well gang.. you may like to know that it has just gone 1am here on the cold and damp side of the pond.. I have not long got back from 4 hours playing down the pub with fingers bleeding and am frantically trying to get my head around all the facts that have bombarded it in the last 24 hours regarding this damn tune..LOL By the way, I've got Tubular Bells playing as I do so (just to let you know Mary I am taping it for you). There is a whole mountain of source material I would kill to get my hands on, namely the entire 18 editions of Playford, plus the 12 vols of Oswalds Caledonain Pocket Companion, alas the library service where I live in Leicester is as much use as a chocolate teapot and that is with a so called "music library".. I haven't assimulated all the pertinent facts yet, but I have noticed that St Patrick's Day is listed on page 132 of Oswald's C.P.C., but if my memory serves me right, this was published in 1711, about 50 years after Playford (no doubt you will correct me if I am wrong Bruce... by the way do you have a copy of C.P.C.?), which begs the question somewhat of him writing the tune. As Mary knows I am still somewhat sceptical that Never Love Thee More is the tune, but as she also knows I am a musical illiterate where such things are concerned. Not having access to all the tunes Playford published is a bit of a set back to say the least. I am also blinkered to some extent by only really knowing the version that we play at our session. I need to spend a lot of time comparing alll the various variations we have gathered so far. I am also interested in finding out how the tune Barbary Bell fits into the scheme of things, as this is basically the same tune. Then there is the whole gambit of its influence in America. Apparently it was a popular tune during the civil war, I'm not sure if this was only amongst the Irish brigades or not. Another point I find fascinating is that today bearing the title of St Patrick's Day and thus epitomising all that is "Irish", appears to have been relegated to the second division as far as session tunes are concerned. Here in the UK it only seems to exist as a set dance, rather than a celebration of Paddy's Day.. instead people seem to embrace tunes like "Wearin' o' the Green", which as Bruce will confirm, is a Scottish tune.. "The Tulip", which was written by James Oswald... That's probably enough rambling from me for now... Thanks everyone who have contributed so far, hopefully we will get to the bottom of this someday. Mick
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Subject: RE: Playford Question From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 21 Feb 01 - 08:56 PM Entire 18 editions of Playford?. There's only one extant copy of some of them. Oswald's CPC was published in 12 small books c 1743-1759. These aren't paginated continuously. Page 132 (of vol. II) would be from a reprint of the set in two volumes. I don't have it but have copied many tunes from the bound set in the Folger Shakespeare Library. It was originally collected and bound by Joseph Ritson, and was later acquired by James Dick before it went to the Folger Lib. I heard about 6 months ago the CPC was to be reprinted, by by whom and when I don't know. I don't think "I'll never love the more" and "St. Patrick's Day" are really related. File COMBCODE.TXT on my website has 4 stessed note coded versions of "I'll never love thee more" (cross ref #40228) and 8 of "St. Patrick's Day (cross ref # 1311). With the program there you can plot out all codes at the same time. The 4th stressed note is very low in all versions of "I'll never love thee more" and in no versions of "St. Patrick's Day". |
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