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BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??

SINSULL 20 Feb 01 - 10:17 AM
Mrrzy 20 Feb 01 - 10:25 AM
Troll 20 Feb 01 - 11:17 AM
Naemanson 20 Feb 01 - 12:16 PM
rangeroger 20 Feb 01 - 12:50 PM
SINSULL 20 Feb 01 - 12:57 PM
Metchosin 20 Feb 01 - 01:03 PM
katlaughing 20 Feb 01 - 01:14 PM
Metchosin 20 Feb 01 - 04:41 PM
katlaughing 20 Feb 01 - 04:45 PM
mousethief 20 Feb 01 - 04:59 PM
Mrrzy 20 Feb 01 - 05:03 PM
Clinton Hammond 20 Feb 01 - 05:07 PM
Kim C 20 Feb 01 - 05:15 PM
Jim the Bart 20 Feb 01 - 06:09 PM
wdyat12 20 Feb 01 - 06:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Feb 01 - 06:34 PM
Skeptic 20 Feb 01 - 07:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Feb 01 - 08:22 PM
Skeptic 20 Feb 01 - 09:52 PM
wdyat12 20 Feb 01 - 10:35 PM
Metchosin 21 Feb 01 - 12:52 AM
Bill D 21 Feb 01 - 11:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Feb 01 - 05:07 PM
Bill D 21 Feb 01 - 08:35 PM
DougR 21 Feb 01 - 08:45 PM
Bill D 21 Feb 01 - 09:32 PM
Ebbie 21 Feb 01 - 09:33 PM
Bill D 21 Feb 01 - 09:40 PM
Naemanson 21 Feb 01 - 10:51 PM
Spud Murphy 21 Feb 01 - 11:33 PM
Skeptic 21 Feb 01 - 11:41 PM
katlaughing 21 Feb 01 - 11:47 PM
Harold W 22 Feb 01 - 12:04 AM
Spud Murphy 22 Feb 01 - 12:11 AM
katlaughing 22 Feb 01 - 12:17 AM
Harold W 22 Feb 01 - 12:38 AM
katlaughing 22 Feb 01 - 12:59 AM
Ebbie 22 Feb 01 - 01:28 AM
Naemanson 22 Feb 01 - 10:24 AM
katlaughing 22 Feb 01 - 10:45 AM
Jim the Bart 22 Feb 01 - 10:53 AM
Bill D 22 Feb 01 - 11:32 AM
Naemanson 22 Feb 01 - 12:17 PM
Spud Murphy 22 Feb 01 - 05:21 PM
Bill D 22 Feb 01 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,Jonathan age 13 22 Feb 01 - 05:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Feb 01 - 05:47 PM
mousethief 22 Feb 01 - 06:12 PM
Bill D 22 Feb 01 - 06:20 PM
Ebbie 22 Feb 01 - 06:47 PM
katlaughing 22 Feb 01 - 07:27 PM
Harold W 22 Feb 01 - 09:11 PM
Ebbie 22 Feb 01 - 09:23 PM
Naemanson 22 Feb 01 - 09:26 PM
katlaughing 22 Feb 01 - 10:14 PM
Spud Murphy 22 Feb 01 - 10:41 PM
Jim the Bart 22 Feb 01 - 10:48 PM
katlaughing 22 Feb 01 - 10:49 PM
Spud Murphy 22 Feb 01 - 11:44 PM
katlaughing 28 Feb 01 - 12:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Feb 01 - 08:36 AM
GUEST 28 Feb 01 - 09:56 AM

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Subject: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 10:17 AM

This just in:
If you open it, oil will come U.S. interests advanced by drilling in Alaskan wilderness

By Marshall Loeb, CBS.MarketWatch.com Last Update: 5:44 PM ET Feb 16, 2001 NewsWatch Latest headlines Get Alerted

NEW YORK (CBS.MW) -- By all logic, President Bush's call to open one-twelfth of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) for oil exploration should be a slam dunk.

It makes sense for the U.S. to develop as much oil at home as feasible. Consider: The U.S. needs oil desperately but produces not nearly enough for its requirements. So the nation must import about half of all the oil that it burns. Those imports alone build a trade deficit of $55 billion a year.

Trouble is, oil is seldom found where it's needed, and seldom needed where it's found.

A dangerous addiction

Much of America's foreign oil comes from rogue states headed by dictators or thugs -- oppressive places like Saddam Hussein's Iraq, Muammar Gaddafi's Lybia, Hugo Chavez's Venezuela -- plus Iran, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, among others. The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), a blatant monopoly that possesses 77 percent of the world's oil deposits, sets production quotas for its members, and seeks to fix prices.

The ANWR reserves could supply an estimated 10 percent of U.S. requirements for about 20 years. Rather than be beholden to these people, politically and economically, it makes sense for the U.S. to develop as much oil at home as feasible. But the lush areas in the Lower 48 -- Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, others -- have long been largely tapped out.

The richest potential field remaining is thought to be beneath ANWR (pronounced anwar), a barren, desolate plain in northernmost Alaska about the size of South Carolina.

No one knows for sure how much oil lies beneath the refuge, but the U.S. Geological Survey reported in 1998 that there could be anywhere from 5.7 billion barrels to as much as 16 billion barrels of recoverable oil, with an expected average of about 10.3 billion barrels of extractable crude. That amount would be enough to supply U.S. needs for about two years, without importing any oil. More likely, it could supply 10 percent of U.S. requirements for about 20 years.

We're not currently exploring in ANWR because opponents argue that drilling would despoil this sensitive wilderness area and decimate the wildlife -- caribou, muskoxen, wolves, and 180 bird species -- that populate it.

Environmental dispute redux

I've been through this ideological battle before. A quarter century ago, just after the first oil crisis, the nation was locked in impassioned debate over whether to build the Trans-Alaskan Pipeline System.

Next to the U.S. Interstate Highway system, the $8 billion Trans-Alaskan Pipeline was the most awesome and important construction project of the 20th Century. Opponents' arguments were almost identical then and now: the pipeline would ruin the tundra and desecrate the environment. The rich wildlife wouldn't be able to scale the four-foot wide pipe, and would not be able to reach breeding and calving grounds, so their numbers would plunge.

We journalists had many bitter discussions in our newsrooms over the pipeline.

Ultimately, Congress in 1973 authorized the pipeline to be built -- and what a marvel it turned out to be! Next to the U.S. Interstate Highway system, the $8 billion Trans-Alaskan Pipeline was the most awesome and important construction project of the 20th Century. Snaking 789 miles across three mountain ranges and three earthquake zones, and underneath 350 rivers and streams, it carries oil from the North Slope fields at Prudhoe Bay to Valdez, Alaska's northernmost deep-water port, where massive tankers haul it out.

The North Slope provides the U.S. with almost 20 percent of its domestically produced oil. But production peaked in 1980 at two million barrels a day, and now is down to about one million barrels and sliding. All the more reason to develop ANWR. If drilling began there tomorrow, it might be 10 years before oil could be produced and shipped.

History as a guide

The experience of oil drilling and development so far in Alaska should calm environmentalists' fears. Yes, the tanker Exxon Valdez ran aground on Bligh's Reef in 1989, and hemorrhaged 11 million gallons of crude into Prince William Sound. But that disaster didn't involve the drilling or the pipeline, and in the 12 incident-free years since then, ships have adopted many new safeguards.

On the North Slope, oilmen and state officials are taking painstaking steps to preserve the wildlife. For example, around 580 special crossings for caribou and other animals have been built on the pipeline. Since construction of the pipeline began, the population of the Central Arctic herd of caribou has surged to 20,000 from less than 5,000; the Western Arctic herd has increased to 463,000 from 70,000.

As New York Times reporter Andrew C. Revkin wrote from Anchorage in January, "Oil drilling is still far from a green industry, but advances in computing and exploration methods, new techniques that allow dispersed underground targets to be reached from a single drilling site and different waste disposal practices have greatly reduced the environmental damage from a modern-day oil path."

I can attest to all than, having visited the Alaskan oil country three times, most recently in June. The rigs and pipelines and industrial buildings on the North Slope and in Valdez are as neat and clean as any I've ever seen.

And many are the times I consider how fortunate we are that we made the correct decision in the 1970s and built the pipeline. Just think of how squeezed we would be by the OPEC cartel today if we were almost totally dependent on imports and didn't have those million barrels a day flowing down from Alaskan to the Lower 48.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marshall Loeb, former editor of Fortune, Money, and The Columbia Journalism Review, writes "Your Dollars" exclusively for CBS.MarketWatch.com. Editorial assistant Elizabeth Carson contributed to this column


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 10:25 AM

Ah, yes, it's barren, no white Republican men living there at all! Must be lifeless, then, I guess...


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Troll
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 11:17 AM

Mrrzy, a few well thought out comments would serve a better purpose than a smart-assed sound bite. Make no mistake, if we do not come up with new technology to replace the use of petrolium products, the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge WILL be explored.
At the present time we can slow it down but, unless things change, we can't stop it.
BTW, I'M a "white republican" man and I don't like sexist, racist remarks.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Naemanson
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 12:16 PM

I heard that the majority of the oil shipped through the Alaska Pipeline is not used by the US but is sold to Japan. Can anyone confirm this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: rangeroger
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 12:50 PM

What really pisses me off about this, are the revelations last month of BP discounting shipments of North Slope crude to export to Asia.Then stating there was a shortage so that they could up the prices in California.

The statement in the article Sinsull posted, that we are better off in the lower 48 due to the North Slope oil coming here,seems to me to be blatently false.Plus the fact that many of the oil fields in the US have not dried up,production was stopped because at one time it was cheaper to import than to produce.

As much as I like my cars, it is time to wean ourselves of the fossil fuel teat.

rr


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 12:57 PM

http://www.cnie.org/nle/nrgen-25.html

According to this study, 7% of the ANS oil is exported mainly to Korea. Sorry, I haven't mastered the blue clicky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 01:03 PM

What is happening in Alaska will have a direct effect in B.C. on many levels. Currently there is a moratorium on gas and oil exploration and drilling in the Queen Charlotte Islands and other areas of the B.C. coast. It is reported that the potential recoverable offshore oil reserves in British Columbia are 3.3 billion barrels, worth about $60 billion.

This moratorium too will most likely be lifted when the current government is replaced in the forthcoming provincial election here.

Despite the current governments' claim to ecological responsibility for imposing the ban, as is noted in this government publication here, oil spills are only deemed of high risk in those areas which do not have an actual voting populace, when the inevitable spills are lapping at the doorways of expensive waterfront houses. Risk is deemed low when only wildlife and a few first nations people are affected.

Marine transport is not the only area of risk, as residents of the northern B.C. town of Chetwynd discovered last summer, when a problem one of the major pipelines pumped crude into their drinking water reservoir and the formerly pristine Pine River.

Changing to an alternative fuel source as a solution will never occur in time to avert another inevitible disaster in the Pacific Northwest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 01:14 PM

Reasons NOT to open up Alaska'a Arctic Refuge

Another assault on nature, in B.C.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 04:41 PM

Yes kat, its constant, but most ecologically harmful on private land where the B.C. Forests Practices Code is not in effect and you can be sure with the forthcoming change in government that the Code never will be in effect in the foreseeable future either.

The logging on Saltspring Island is particularly in the forefront because of a "nude ride" through the streets of Vancouver a few weeks ago, by an Island lawyer, doing her best Lady Godiva imitation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 04:45 PM

Also, through their own nudie calendar. I am doing an op/ed piece on it this week. According to my research, she is a field naturalist with a PhD in geography.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 04:59 PM

Golly, is this place "barren" and "desolate" or does it have caribou, muskoxen, wolves, and 180 bird species?

This guy is talking out of both sides of his mouth. And I should believe him?

-ALex


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 05:03 PM

OK, Troll, I plead guilty to perpetuating a stereotype. I'll try not to take the bait next time...


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 05:07 PM

2 words

Alternative fuels!


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 05:15 PM

I say we build an engine that can run on beer.

Seriously though, I heard on Paul Harvey years ago that there is a lot of corn waste - cosmetically imperfect ears, cobs, etc. - in the US that could be used for fuel but nobody wants to touch it so it just rots back into the ground. It's too bad because not only could consumers benefit, but so could the farmers, especially during years when their marketable crop suffers.

But I guess that just makes too much sense.

I believe there is money to be made in any kind of fuel and that the oil companies would Still Make Money even if they got away from Oil. But I'm just an unfrozen caveman, what do I know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 06:09 PM

Regardless of whether it last two years or twenty years, the oil will eventually run out. But the remnants of our drilling and transporting presence will remain and nothing will bring the land back to what it was.

When will we begin to understand that we live on this earth for a limited time and that what we do with our stewardship during that time may just be the most critical part of our legacy? We need to find ways to employ renewable sources of energy or our descendants will have every reason to curse our selfishness. Or am I thinking a little bit too far ahead? After all, we have a booming economy to prop up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: wdyat12
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 06:18 PM

Kinda reminds me of the dilemma on Dune.

We need a new drug!

wdyat12


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 06:34 PM

"I say we build an engine that can run on beer" says Kim C.

I've got one of those. Totally biodegradeable as well.

The great thing about the USA is that way of calling the far-flung parts of the world that they occupy "domestic". The British tried that trick, but it never realy worked. And it came unstuck for the Russians as well.

Do the Alaskan people get any say in all this? Or is it just that government far away in Washington? The one that Bush said was too big for its boots?


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Skeptic
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 07:09 PM

So lets see, a lot of the oil we're taking out of the North Slope is being sold to Korea so we need to open up Anwar so they can sell more oil to Korea? To solve the California energy crisis (where less than 1% of the power is from oil fired plants)? Makes perfect sense to me. That and if you read the article, Loeb makes it sound like the Alaska pipeline caused the animal population to increase. A real win-win situation

Unless we are willing to reduce energy use significantly, (and find alternatives)is there an alternative to opening up Alaska? Or National Parks in the Rockies for natural gas? Forget SUV's and Jacuzzi's. Know how much power it takes to keep Yahoo or eBay on-line? Or Mudcat? Some of the big providers are talking about building their own power plants to run their server farms. Fuel cells and fusion power may be the answer but no one knows how to get there yet. The belief that necessity is the mother of invention begs the question and ususually only works as hindsight.

Anyone from Canada know much about the McKenzie Pipeline Commission? I came across a reference to it in a book on technology and democracy. Their take was that the head of the Commission (Thomas Berger I think), rather than just listen to the experts, environmentalists and oil company front men, also held hearings throughout the area of potential impact. And actually listened to what the people living there had to say. The final decision was based on input from all sides and resulted in the pipeline not being built right away, and when it was, it bypassed the McKenzie Valley. (If my memory serves).

Updates and such would be appreciated but it sounds like a pretty good way to go about such things if it has to be done.

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 08:22 PM

"Know how much power it takes to keep Yahoo or eBay on-line? Or Mudcat?"

It'd be interesting to know that - in all the stuff I've seen written about the Internet, I don't think I've ever seen anything about that side of it.

I'd guess that the answer is relatively little, and in fact that the overall impact of the Internet is likely to be to reduce the use of fossil fuel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Skeptic
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 09:52 PM

McGrath,

Probably not much for the computers themselves, but I was thinking of the supporting systems. Multiprocessor servers, monitors, modems and related switches, bridges and routers generate a lot heat. A really big operation would use a lot of power to maintain ambient temperature and air. And unlike a lot of commercial buildings, it would be a 24/7 operation.

Plus there's technological obsolescence and what to do with all the computers and monitors. No one's recycling much so all those old XT's and black and white monitors end up in landfills. I think I saw the figure of six pounds of lead leachate for some older monitors. Plus mercury and all those other heavy metals. I know I'm on my fourth generation of computer. Earlier ones were recycled down to friends and soon ended up in the landfill.

On top of that, most would have fairly extensive UPS systems that could carry the computer and AC load in case of power problems. Which means not just generators but banks of batteries that have to be kept charged.

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: wdyat12
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 10:35 PM

McGrath,

In your proposal will there be any beer left for us common folk? This is not a new drug, only a new application. Won't we need oil to run the tractors and harvesters to produce the hops? I love beer as much as any other man, but I do not want to go on ration stamps to get it.

wdyat12


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:52 AM

Skeptic, the Royal Commission headed by Berger resulted in a 10? 12? year moratorium on the pipeline pending more assessments on social and economic impact. What really killed it at the time was less ecological and sociological than economical. There was a significant down turn in oil and gas prices, which put a crimp in the feasibility.

With the higher gas and oil prices of recent years, there has been a resurgence in interest in building the pipeline again. And since the Commission of the 70's, there seems to be a lessening of concern for the environmental impact, in exchange for the aboriginal people of the area getting a more significant piece of the pie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 11:33 AM

We will develop alternate fuels and power sources seriously when the lights start flickering in the homes of of the rich & powerful...and when THEY can see a way to control the process and the profits. (yes, I know all about experiments in wind power, tide power, solar power...etc..but so far it ain't **SERIOUS**)

And it will be a troubling time for everyone, with exhorbitant prices, shortages, accusations and condemnations. Population will keep expanding and resources will keep shrinking and tempers will flare and life will be 'interesting'.

No, my crystal ball doesn't tell me whether we will sort it all out before things are in major disarray..sorry. And sorry to be a doomsayer, but I'll make a side bet with you. I am over 60, and may see some of this...my son is 18, and I hate what HE will probably see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 05:07 PM

Don't worry wydat - that machine that runs on beer is the one that has been keeping my heart ticking since before I was born.

What I find puzzling is, since we all know that the oil is going to run out in a few decades, wouldn't it make sense to bring in the change we're going to need to make then now, rather than in a rush and a muddle a few years down the road?

Presumably the answer is, "that's not how the capitalist way of doing things does things". And to me that's a pretty clear indication that it doesn't actually work, except in the short term. I think it's highly that the capitalist system will long survive state socialism. And in its decline and fall it'll probably cause even more damage.

And Skeptic, I'm not doubting that there are a lot of costs involved in the Internet. Just saying, I've never seen the figures, and I wouldn't be surprised if the actual costs are relatively low, compared to the costs of a lot of the technological infrastructure we have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 08:35 PM

amen, McGrath....but the long view is just SO much trouble, don't you know? We'll just let our kids worry about it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: DougR
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 08:45 PM

The sky is falling. DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 09:32 PM

yep...indeed...BIG hole in the Ozone...all them UltraViolent rays falling right on my poor, pale Scottish skin...(started 20 years too late to keep THAT from becoming a serious problem before it starts to fill back in)


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 09:33 PM

Today I received a return call from an Alaska pipeline rep. She says that in the past, a "small percentage" of Alaska oil was sent to Asia but that none of it has been exported since the BP/Arco merger a couple of years ago.

She gave me a number to call next week for actual figures and dates and history.

McGrath, I would love to hear officials on all levels start talking about the need to explore and implement NOW the alternatives that we know will have to be accepted. No one functions well in a panic situation and we'll never have more time than this to make a change, gradual or not.

"The sky is falling", Doug? I expect you read the official warning from the 'Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change', comprised of 700 scientists about the reality and effects of global warming, but my guess is that most of the 'conservative' elements haven't changed their opinions. They'll keep whistling until the dark surrounds them.

No one claims that only human beings are causing this phenomenon, because of the cyclic nature of Earth, but we may easily be the last straw laid on its back. IMMEDIATELY cutting back on fossil fuels is a good place to start the mitigating process.

I'm just finishing a book, printed last year, that details just such a scenario and I'm convinced we must sit up and respond NOW.

EB


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 09:40 PM

reminds me of the attempts after the dustbowl to teach contour plowing and srop rotation to some of the more 'conservative' farmers...

One old fellow was heard to grumble, seriously during a lecture, "Durn college edjacated troublemakers tryin' to tell ME how to farm! Why, between my Daddy & me, we've worn out five farms!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Naemanson
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 10:51 PM

Alternative Fuels - There is one phrase that will continue to delay the development and implementation of Alternatives.

Not economically viable.

Which means that the rich CEO's of the big companies will continue to squash that development for a long time to come because they cannot see any way to make money off of it.

I used to have a few shares of EXXON. Once I actually sat down to read the stockholder's report and ballot. The board members were members of boards n many different companies. Trust me. The control of this country may seem to be in Washington but it's those bastards who have the real reins.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 11:33 PM

Well, here I go. I hate to jump into this discussion because it gets to be such an us or them thing. If you're on the side of exploration and production you are per se a rapist, destroyer of all that is beautiful in nature, and if you're an environmentalist, you are an air headed tree hugger. Surely, there must be a white male republican somewhere in the world who can recite Joyce Kilmer's lovely poem with soul; or a young lady of the Green persuasion who realizes the enjoyment of eating an occasional bit of red meat.

I lived in Alaska for a good long spell; long enough to get an engineering degree from the University of Alaska (Fairbanks)and to raise two daughters and a son and see them through school and out into the world. I went to Alaska because I loved the outdoors, I loved to fish and hunt. After college i eventually becamd the CEO of the largest Alaskan owned construction company, which incidentally built 80% of the infrastructure in support off the exploration and initial production on the North Slope. I took a leave from that firm to become the Commissioner of Alaska's Department of Public Works.

The real prize in the oil development world so far as Alaska is concerned has always been the geologic structures that lie within the Arctic Wildlife Refuge. All the time that work was centered on the Prudhoe Bay field the eyes of the oil company executives were on ANWR. They dared not stub their toe environmentally or goodbye future development. It was the environmentalists who kept the oil companies and construction firms honest, and it will be the environmentalists who will again keep them honest in ANWR. Because oil recovery WILL take place in ANWR. The country will not support such a radical change in national economics as to deny it. As a country we have prospered exactly because of a policy of unlimited harvest, sale and consumption of natural resources. The will of the people is not so aroused as to allow them to reject that policy, and YOU, the people, are not prepared to survive the depression that would inevitably ensue, were a move in that direction to become an actuality.

On this subject, from where the sun now stands, I will speak no more forever.

Spud


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Skeptic
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 11:41 PM

Spud,

On this subject, from where the sun now stands, I will speak no more forever.

I wish you would, though.

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 11:47 PM

Wow, interesting to say the least, Spud. My dad was up on Amchitka in the late 60's/early 70's welding on, at that time, the biggest drilling rig in the world.

When we ask why, we as a people, continue to let this go on, barring the evidence that it is out of our hands due to big money power, etc. (that's another subject, rising up & claiming that power), it reminds me of why someone who knows they will die if they don't stop smoking, or overeating or drinking or doing drugs doesn't just stop. I mean, they are staring death in the face, with absolute certainty know they are dying and cannot or will not stop their destructive behaviour.

Personally, I think every human has an inherent self-destruct gene, some in whom it is active, others not, but collectively, in the mass consciousness, I think it is active and unless we tip the scales we will take our home to hell in a handbasket with us.

Damn, I hate being a doomsayer..gotta go find my Pollyanna half....


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Harold W
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:04 AM

What about using the oil shale reserves in Colorado? One would think that the current price of oil might make this feasable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:11 AM

Off the subject:

We've got some old codgers here at the hospital, in there nineties, hackin there lungs out with copd, who sit out in front of the building in their wheel chairs smokin cigarettes. Maybe it's a cult thing. Puff the magic dragon resurrected?

Spud


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:17 AM

LOL, Spud, maybe...I hope my Puff(er) makes it into his 90's with me! I also agree with Skeptic, it would be very interesting to hear more from you, Spud.

Harold W., I don't know a lot about the oil shale reserves in Western Colorado, because I was so young and unaware when we lived there, but I do know my parents and a bunch of other oilfield people, pinned their hopes on them for a long time. I will ask my dad about them, now, but in the past whenever anyone has brought them up there has been general derision at the thought that it will ever happen. Frankly, that would just perpetuate the dependence on fossil fuels, anyway, wouldn't it? Geez, I hadn't thought of them in years; used to go tramping all over those hills...


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Harold W
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:38 AM

Pardon me, but my age is showing... I recall that the area had enough potential oil for several hundred years. Having been through the mine at Anvil Points on the Federal Reserve and retorting process for the Paraho Project, it looked like it had great possibilities at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:59 AM

Oh, Harold, I am sorry if I sounded snippy. I didn't mean to..it was always such a bone of contention among my parents and their friends. I remember hearing them talk about it a lot.

When were you there? I am just wondering...if it was a while ago, maybe it was enough for then for several hundreds of years, but maybe not now? Just wondering. We were in Grand Junction from 1962 through 1975, but my parents both grew up in New Castle where my grandparents, both sets, homesteaded with their parents, so there is a lot of history about the area in our family lore. I will call my dad, he's almost 84 and in Utah, now, and ask him about it tomorrow.

Please accept my apologies if I offended you in anyway.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 01:28 AM

Correction: That is 'the merger of BP/Amoco'. My mind blipped.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Naemanson
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:24 AM

So let me see if I understand what we are talking about. Instead of drilling in the barren plains of the arctic we will strip mine those ugly old mountains in Colorado.

Not that I'm worried about it. I'm sure most of the oil will flow without being spilled and the strip miners will fill in their hole when they are done. We will continue to drive our SUV's and sell our oil to other countries so the companies can continue to bring in their hard earned profits and the princes of the economy can continue to ride in their limosines.

The future is rosy and I feel good about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:45 AM

Well, Naes, those particular *hills*, they are too short to qualify for mtns. in Colorado, are kind of ugly and very barren looking, but if you get up close they do have a lot of desert flora and fauna and you know I would never want to see the area ruined by anything, including strip mining.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:53 AM

Spud, you are right. In the end the capitalistic tendencies will prevail and the oil will be harvested. The environmentalist activity will help keep the blatant waste within acceptable levels. The dimming of the lights will be pushed back an undetermined number of years. At some point the oil will be gone, because it takes a long time to create and a few years to use up.

Back in the 60's, there was a period of time when I was trying to find myself. I had quit school and was trying to put together enough dough to quit working and play music fulltime. I was working with a guy who had a connection that would get us both jobs on the Alaska pipeline. I was packed and ready to go when the Congress halted the project. I was bummed out. I had to find a new plan. By the time the pipeline was back underway, I had moved on. I knew the environmental arguments and had completely overruled them out of personal economic "necessity".

Unless we change our behavior individually, and work to change them collectively, you can pretty much predict what will happen on what has happened. It's hard work changing the way the world works. Unless people begin to see that their self-interest lies in working toward change it just won't happen. And that's a hard sell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 11:32 AM

we can debate endlessly whether we 'need' the Alaskan oil, or the Colorado shale oil... if it is there, and someone sees a way to make a buck on it, there will be enormous pressure to harvest it. And yes, there WILL be damage to the ecosystem if they try, both cosmetic and environmental.

There is no way to dig up and process shale except by digging holes and making piles of crushed rock..BIG piles...There is no way to do drilling in wilderness areas except with roads, pipelines, housing, noise and pollution thru leaks and contaminants introduced in the process. The argument will always be, "we'll be careful, but our country needs this oil"...Prudhoe Bay didn't 'need' quite so much.

The ecosystem is just too complex to predict exactly how much digging and altering and reduction of bio-diversity is 'too' much, but we will most likely find it, because $$$$s dictate that we don't stop until it hurts. When we DO find that answer, it will be painfully obvious, and not very pleasant.

Al Gore at least understood some of these issues, whatever you think of his character, demeanor and general policies, and I suspect he would have given us some hope. G.W. Bush has no clue, and will support anything the developers want.

Like it or not, quality of life relating to overpopulation and environmental degradation is going to slowly become one of the most serious issues for the next few generations, but like a frog in a s*l*o*w*l*y heated pot of water, most people won't notice till it is too late.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Naemanson
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:17 PM

Yeah, you are right. We will end up exploiting those areas because we have to. I agree with Bill D's assessment of the difference between Gore and Bush. And I agree with Bartholomew that the environmentalists will keep and eye on things.

But in that time we will have to listen to the conservatives complain about the unnecessary expense caused by the environmental concerns. It reminds me of what happened when the asbestos issues surfaced. All I heard from the people around me (conservatives all) was that the liberals were making a mountain out of a mole hill. They complained about the added expense and the unnecessary burden of respirators, moon suits, and industrial hygene experts. It wasn't until their friends began to die that they moderated their tune somewhat.

And Kat, I was ready to jump you for your comments about the oil shale area. It sounded a little too close to "The barren Alaskan plain". *BG*

But then, I'm not a jumping type of person. At least, not that kind of jumping.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 05:21 PM

Hush, all of you.

It's time for my nap.

Spud


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 05:31 PM

*tiptoeing over to shut off an oil rig so Spud can nap awhile...*


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: GUEST,Jonathan age 13
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 05:37 PM

Dude I don't want to sound like a tree-hugger but theres more in Alaska than ice we need to protect the little untouched land that is left in America!


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 05:47 PM

"In the end the capitalistic tendencies will prevail"

Maybe, maybe not. Remember Kruschev saying "We will bury you". Much the same.

One evil empire down. The one that's left might turn out to be just as fragile.

Once again I ask my question: "Do the Alaskan people get any say in all this? Or is it just that government far away in Washington? The one that Bush said was too big for its boots?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 06:12 PM

He'll just make sure it gets bigger boots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 06:20 PM

The Alaskans do get a say, I think...but they made out royally last time the $$$$ were being handed out. I sort of expect a majority would vote to collect....(would be wonderful to be proved wrong)...(if the land is Federal land, it just may be a moot point what the Alaskans thing...some things can be done by decree)


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 06:47 PM

McGrath, the current Governor and his administration in Alaska and all three US members of Congress are in favor of opening the Refuge. And evidently a lot of other Alaskans are too- including at least one of the native tribes in Alaska. (Another tribe, the Gwichin, who live in the area, are vehemently against it. They have always had a subsistence-based lifestyle and rely heavily on the caribou and other wildlife in the area. They apparently feel the stakes are too high to experiment.)

Many Alaskans, on the other hand, feel as I do- that in the generations to come, if the time ever comes that that oil means the difference between our society surviving or going under, the projected oil will still be there. It hain't goin' nowhars.

I don't believe that Alaska has much control over the Refuge. I know that under the Clinton/Gore administration, the powers-that-be in Alaska weren't able to push their agenda. With the bush2 administration solidly in favor of opening it to drilling, those in Alaska are chortling with glee. It doesn't look good.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 07:27 PM

I am sorry to hear that, Ebbie. Thanks for giving us a clearer picture from the front-line.

Naes...I have a great fondness for those hills...my son was most likely conceived in the backseat of a 1963 Ford Galaxy convertible in those hills...I really did mean what I said about never wanting to see them destroyed, but if you will click here you might see why I said they were pretty barren looking. It is desert and you haven't lived until you are out hiking on those hills with high altitude sun beating down on you in 100 degree heat. It is surreal and one can easily imagine the contours of the moon when out there.

Still it has its beauty including a wild horse refuge out where I used to go with my friends. Further up in Debeque Canyon, along the Colorado River, as the altitude climbs, there is more and more vegetation, pinon pine etc. and it just keeps getting prettier (this is where my great-grandparents homesteaded) the closer (just up the road from the "Ranch") you get to the Rockies.

All I can say is thank the gawds and gawddesses that my family's old homestead is an elk refuge and will hopefully escape any oil exploration.

kat...somebody tell Spud it's dinnertime?


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Harold W
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:11 PM

For kat/katlaughing: Apology accepted. I have lived in the Colrado River drainage area most of my life.

Most of the shale developement was going to be underground mining. The big problem is the disposal of the waste. They experimented by covering the piles with topsoil and reseeding them with native vegetation. I do not know what the results were. One of the problems with not having enough petroleum is people buy cars that are not fuel efficient, such as SUV's (which the majority of people who own them don't need them and do not know how to drive them).


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:23 PM

kat, don't be so sure- ANWR is the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge. :(

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Naemanson
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:26 PM

Manomanoman! Kat, that is some pretty country! I have GOT to get out there and see some of that stuff with these two eyebones of mine. Maybe we can share. I'll take you on a tour of this part of the world if you'l tour me around there.

I hope I can make it before they dig it all up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:14 PM

It's a date, Naes! The only part of Maine I remember on whirlwind drive-through is the moose-crossing sign of which I didn't get a picture!

Thanks, Harold.

Ebbie, I know, I thought about that as I wrote it! For a really early picture of the old homestead, log cabin and all, please click here

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:41 PM

Now yer talkin, Kat My kinda house. Good folks come from a place like that. Mrs Murphy don't like it none, though.

Ebbie: Looks just like the country between Paxon's Lodge and Summit Lake, about 1950. i wonder where the Lake is, though.

Spud


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:48 PM

The sad part is that in a democracy all you need is a majority of one at the moment of decision to make a choice that will effect generations yet unborn. So if one more Alaskan says "yeah" than "nay" the answer is - "Yes, Alaskans favor opening up the refuge." That still doesn't mean it's a good idea. Ask Brazilians if cutting down the rain forests is a good idea and you'll get a majority that says that's a good idea, too. A few make a fortune, a few more make a little and everyone loses a lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:49 PM

Thank yew, kind sir. I have to say I probably gree with Mrs. Murphy. We lived in an unfinished cinder block house set into a hill on the Old Oregon Trail in Wyoming for a time when the kids were little. Had to haul our water, heat with wood, etc....think we'd be crazy to do that now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 11:44 PM

Hey, Kat: Don't knock it. Those are survival skills you may need about the time they're pumping the last barrel out of ANWR. If you haven't left for the Great Mudcat House In The Sky by that time. Kerosine lamps and a two-holer out back, too.

Spud


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 12:53 AM

Arrrghhh! I hope never to have to use those skills, again, Spud, BUT, with the Shrub and his outloook, ya never know. Just found this quote, I am assuming by Daddy Bush, our president de facto:

"The caribou love it. They rub against it and they have babies. There are more caribou in Alaska than you can shake a stick at."
--George Bush, on the Alaska pipeline


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 08:36 AM

They call it democracy, but it's just tyranny of the living over the yet-to-be-born-or-grow-up. You need to stick that kind of thing in a constitution so that it takes a lot more effort to get rid of it than just a bare majority in a dodgy election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Let's Drill 'The barren Alaskan plain'??
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 09:56 AM

These guys start throwing numbers around and who're you gonna believe? This article says the reserves in ANWR could supply U.S. demands for two years; article Life After Oil in the current issue of Utne Reader says six months...

Paul Harvey's commentary suggested boosting coal production as an alternative, ostensibly because there's a lot of it. A fine fuel, but Dios Mios, about as sooty as it gets...(cut to panoramic photograph of London, England some one hundred years ago). Not to mention currently the most profitable methods of extracting it from the ground do great harm to the environment (fade in soundtrack of John Prine's "Paradise" and the line about "the world's biggest shovel...").

It would still be a great concern, but less so if all the carbon dioxide these fuels spew into the air made golf in January at ANWR the stuff of science fiction....


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Mudcat time: 19 May 11:43 PM EDT

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