Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 27 Feb 01 - 02:49 PM According to Flanders and Swann ,when someone asked who wrote it, a voice (Henry VIII) boomed out "WE did". Archivists at Hampton Court have just unearthed the earliest known version on vellum and despite the palimpsest you can just make out: "(c)Henricus Reynardus Agency" on the bottom (allegedly) RtS |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST Date: 27 Feb 01 - 03:05 PM RtS, that reminds me of the DT's own experience with the Henricus Reynardus Agency.
Maybe the 16th-century archives of the |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: Don Firth Date: 27 Feb 01 - 03:08 PM Thanks for the info, petr. My understanding about the use of wooden type in Europe, predating Gutenberg, was that it was sort of a first feeble attempt, and probably didn't really make that much of a blip on the history of printing. Too painstakeing to carve, too delicate for much use, and the technology (if it can be called that) was not actually used in anything like a letter press. It was more in the nature of a do-it-yourself rubber stamp, only with wooden letters. Amazing and amusing at the time, but not much practical application. Don Firth |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST,petr Date: 27 Feb 01 - 04:25 PM oh I should add that wooden blocks were used to print playing cards and in fact a great deal of woodblock prints were used for pictures. |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: Mr Red Date: 27 Feb 01 - 05:30 PM Malcolm Douglas Yea the girl it is. Whoooeeeeee. Snuffy Yep I would be interested in ABC files/links. e-mail to MrRed@cresby.com or link in this thread would be nice. It wouldn't really be two timimg her would it? Thanks everyone, I can now go back to Folk at Frampton (in VH, nr Stroud every Tues) and regail them with the results. |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: Snuffy Date: 27 Feb 01 - 06:44 PM Here you go Mr Red. All tunes transcribed by me from A Handbook of Morris Dances by Lionel Bacon, 1974. published by The Morris Ring. X: 110 Wassail! V
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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: Mark Cohen Date: 27 Feb 01 - 11:57 PM By the way, the "long" and "short" S were commonly used in handwritten as well as printed documents. For example, take a look at a replica of the Declaration of Independence (which, of course, was really signed on July 2--but that's a pedant of another color). So it really has nothing to do with printing technology. I still haven't heard any knowledgeable person comment on my "final s" explanation, so I still don't know if it's true. And perhaps I never will. Aloha, Mark |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST,Bruce O Date: 28 Feb 01 - 01:53 AM We aren't the only ones that have troubles with that long s. Before Kitty Clive got married about 1731 she was known as Miss Raftor (her father was an Irish gentleman disposessed in 1690, and moved to London). However, I've twice seen it in the 1720s spelled Miss Rastor (with long s). That v with the upward tail on the end got the librarians off the track in setting up a first line index for 'The Euing Collection of English Broadside Ballads', 1971, and they have for one first line "I habing an hour of time and leifure".
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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 28 Feb 01 - 02:05 AM There were far better composers at King Henry VIII's court than Henry himself. Many of their songs are in BL MS Royal 58 Appendix, and some are in the first English song book (which also had the tunes), Bassus, 1530. Shall we postulate a communal origins theory? That seems to be one of the few we haven't had yet. |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST Date: 28 Feb 01 - 02:16 AM Dear Don Firth; Nope, The chinese used wooden or clay blocks which WERE moveable. Gutenburg invented multiple, moveable individual letters, puntuation marks and so on. I do believe that most reliable sources will give credit to Mr. Gutenburg . Geordie |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: Mr Red Date: 28 Feb 01 - 04:52 PM Snuffy Ta. |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: Mark Cohen Date: 28 Feb 01 - 11:25 PM But those reliable sources will probably spell his name correctly. (Sorry, guest, it was too good an opening to resist! Meant in good fun.) |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST Date: 28 Feb 01 - 11:31 PM Modern spellings are just that. American Raleigh is English Ralegh, and Sir Walter sometimes signed as Rawly.
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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST,Brenton Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:28 AM Hi Just wanted to let you guys know that i am doing some research for uni into the Greensleeves phenomenon. This thread has been really interesting, if not useful. I'm surprised that it just ended the way it did. Are all of the possible theories taken care of or did people just get bored. I'd love to know more. The more numerous reliable (or at least possible) versions of the story i can get the better. Mr Red, I know you found a girl and all that, but it's no reason to give up the search. Don, I'm sure know one knows for sure, but it is just no fun to resign yourself to that. From Brenton (Swinburne University) PS Red, did you find what you were looking for? |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: dick greenhaus Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:17 PM Just to point out that the tune(usually titled "Which Nobody Can Deny") was widely used for political and othr ongs in the 17th and 18th Centuries. |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: sapper82 Date: 02 Sep 04 - 02:02 PM But isn't Greensleves an Irish tune? After all, I did see it on a CD of favourite traditional Irish tunes!!! |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: AlanN Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:40 AM I am new to Mudcat. For ten years I have been researching the origins of the Wyresdale Greensleeves Dance that was collected by Cecil Sharp in North Lancashire in 1910. The tune was played as a 6/8 jig. The dance and the tune fit together like a hand in a glove. The earliest "local" reference is in the John Winder MS 1789 where it titles the tune "Greenslee'ves....Kick My A..E". I am firmly convinced that the dance version of the tune came first and when it migrated south in, perhaps, the 16th century it was developed into the slower versions. There is a tradition in Wyresdale that a local musician wrote the tune. George Emmerson's book Rantin Pipe and Tremblin String supporte this possibility. My research suggests that the dance is over 1200 years old (at least). I liked something I found in a related thread concerning the name greensleeves. It derives from Old English GRAENA SLAVIIS which means INSANE BASTARDS. If you see the dance performed you will understand. |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST,Lighter at work Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:05 AM |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST,Paul Burke Date: 24 Sep 04 - 11:46 AM She was called Greensleeves because she never carried a hanky... |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST,anonymous Date: 14 Dec 04 - 07:38 PM i have a copy of the map from Treasure Island by Robert Louis Stevenson, and the s's there look like f's |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST,KRonozin Date: 07 May 07 - 02:56 AM I think greensleeves sounds italian or spanish. I can play the song on guitar, violin and trumpet. Guitar sounds the most natural and thats spanish. It was definately made in the time of the renisance |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: bubblyrat Date: 07 May 07 - 04:19 AM I don"t think it was 'anonymous', but more likely 'heynonnynonnymous' ! And , whoever it waf, had a fafte for roaft fucking pig ,alfo ! |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: bubblyrat Date: 07 May 07 - 04:20 AM Sorry, ---tafte !! |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: guitar Date: 07 May 07 - 04:24 AM I belive it was KIng Henry VIII |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: Jack Campin Date: 07 May 07 - 05:36 AM KRonozin: not only is it post-Renaissance, but the underlying chord progression more or less marks the definitive break with Renaissance music. Melody-over-chords like that is the essential Baroque style. |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: catspaw49 Date: 07 May 07 - 07:17 AM Well, I can play it on Nose Flute, so what does that make it? Kro......Ya' got yourself a strange way of researching song history. Spaw |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 07 May 07 - 09:53 AM It might be useful to point out something about "green sleeves" (note no caps there). Clothing styles and technology at the time at least generally did not permanently make the sleeves part of the garment. Rather, they were "separates", which tied on to the body for the garment. It was common for a lady to have a number of sleeve sets, which were combined "for the nonce" with this or that garment. That being said, I can see "My Lady Greensleeves" as being one who was fond of wearing sleeves of green. No grass stains necessary, even though the concept may be titillating to a modern audience. Dave Oesterreich |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: leeneia Date: 07 May 07 - 09:57 AM "I also have seen the suggestion that "greensleeves" was a nickname for a promiscuous girl (grass stains on her sleeves)." Take it from a girl - if you do it on the grass, you don't get up with stains on your SLEEVES. Why is it that some people have to turn every woman mentioned in literature into a whore? Reading Mudcat threads, we hear that Sweet Molly Malone (who was imaginary) is The Tart with a Cart. We hear that the woman in Raglan Road was a prostitute, though there's no evidence for that. Now Greensleeves is a slut. Give it a miss! I stand my my slieve theory, above. =========== As for Henry VIII's supposed authorship, the main reason for discrediting it is that there are no contemporary references. If an autocrat like Henry had written a playable song, his courtiers would have fawned, doted, lavished praise and recorded it in all their diaries. It would have been in all the newspapers, had their been newspapers. I for one am glad that he has no connection to this beautiful song. |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: masato sakurai Date: 07 May 07 - 11:58 AM See this illustration from Walter Crane's Pan-Pipes - A book of old songs (1883). |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 May 07 - 03:42 PM Detachable sleeves = hankies, used thus green with snot- Oh, forget it! |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 07 May 07 - 03:48 PM Aren't there a number of lute versions of Greensleeves? I've certainly heard one which has echoes of the tune we know today but, to my ears, hasn't got as strong a melody. |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: leeneia Date: 07 May 07 - 11:47 PM I have a book of recorder music which contains a version of Greensleeves from William Ballet's Lute Book. That ms seems to be from about 1580. |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST Date: 08 May 07 - 03:38 AM "I seem to remember reading ( - the old 1-vol. Percy Scholes version?) that Greensleeves was typical example of the Italian tunes imported with the improved viol / ~ modern violin in the 16th century." I've heard Henry VIII referred to as England's first Renaissance king, due to the fact that he imported new and sophisticated cultural influences from other parts of Europe. The Bassano family were brought over from Venice as musicians and instrument makers to Henry VIII in 1531. If Greensleeves has distinctly Italian overtones, perhaps Henry's Italian court musicians could be responsible? Just a theory, of course, but at least as good as some of the others about grass stains, anyway. Incidentally, the Bassano family evolved into a noted dynasty of court musicians, also serving at the court of Elizabeth I. The character Bassanio in The Merchant of Venice is thought to be named after one of the family. Another member of the family, Emilia, is the most recent candidate for the "dark lady" of Shakespeare's sonnets. As it happens, I know direct descendant of the family myself - but he doesn't play the sackbutt, compose Renaissance music, or inspire poetry (that I know of). He's a sheep farmer in Leicestershire. |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 08 May 07 - 06:39 AM Some useless trivia about the Tudors and logical supposition. Anne Boleyn never had three boobs or an extra finger - these are all propaganda myths put about after her trial and execution for adultery and incest. Had she an extra finger, her family would have hidden her away or 'encouraged not to thrive' when she was a child. She would not have gained a place at Court, either in France, where she spent her early life, or in England, where superstition (under guise of The Church)~ still thrived. She certainly would not have been royal marriage material with any visible disformity ~ too much risk of 'infecting' the Royal bloodline. There were rumours during her trial that she had bedded the King through witchcraft (what we would now call heavy petting, mutual masterbation and blow jobs, everything except actual penetration) which is why she could not carry a child to full term and that lead to the other outward 'signs' of witchery being invented and broadcast. Rumour makes molehills into mountains ~ or in this case, moles into mammaries. The Tudor colours, from Henry VII through to Elizabeth I, were green and white. Anyone wanting to be recognised as a Tudor supporter, wore these colours. During the month of May, the whole court wore green and celebrated with hunting, feasting, games, masques and balls. Hawthorn, or flowering May was the emblem of the House of Tudor; after Richard III's death at Bosworth, his crown was allegedly found in a hawthorn bush and placed on the head of Henry Tudor, the future Henry VII. If the tune can be traced back to 1580 (slap in the middle of Elizabeth's reign) it is likely to be at least a few years older than that. Henry had only been dead 33 years by then. He had been an accomplished musician and excellent at sight reading. It is possible that it was writen 50 years previously, for Anne Boleyn, but there is no evidence. Henry hated writing himself, but there are 17 letters in his handwriting to Anne. It is possible that he wrote her others, poetry was popular at court and the subject matter of Greensleeves ~ that of a courtly lady ignoring her sugar daddy would certainly suit the circumstances of Anne refusing to bed the King until they were married. With all the evidence and supposition given above, we're left with the possibility that Henry VIII DID write 'Greensleeves' but it is probable that it was someone else. LTS |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: Mr Red Date: 08 May 07 - 07:52 AM Sheep Farmer in Leicestershire - does he play the Leicestershire small pipes then? d8^) |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST,MZTRYLADY2U Date: 07 Oct 07 - 02:08 AM HOW DO I FIND THE ORIGINAL VERZION OF "GREENSLEEVES" LYRICS, AND MUSIC I THINK THAT WAS WRITTEN BY BACH OR BEETOVEN IN THE 16TH CENTURY FOR KING HENRYV11? |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST Date: 07 Oct 07 - 02:33 AM THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE ANSWERS, I DON'T KNOW WHO WROTE IT, BUT I LOVE IT, AND I WAS TRYING TO FIND THE ORIGINAL VERSION, BECAUSE WHEN I WAS A YOUNG CHILD (OLDEST OF 10) CHILDREN, MY MOTHER WOULD SING THAT BEAUTIFUL SONG AS SHE ROCKED US TO SLEEP, AND I WOULD LOVE TO FIND THE ORIGINAL LYRICS, AND FULL BALLAD MUSIC, I'TS SO BEAUTIFUL, SAD, AND HAUNTING, BUT IT REMINDS ME OF MY MOTHER, WHO I LOST IN 1972, AT THE AGE OF 39. I HAD JUST GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL, HAD TO RAISE MY NINE YOUNGER BROTHERS AND SISTERS, AND I WOULD ROCK THEM, AND SING THE SAME SONG TO THEM, MY CHILDREN, AND GRANDCHILDREN. I AM NOW 53, AND IN VERY ILL HEALTH AND I WOULD LIKE TO FIND AN ORIGINAL COPY TO PLAY AT MY FUNERAL. THANKS FOR ANY HELP. GOD BLESS AND KEEP YOU ALL SAFE IN HIS ARMS. |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: masato sakurai Date: 07 Oct 07 - 09:00 AM There's no evidence that Henry VIII wrote "Greensleeves," which is a belief, not a fact. On his musical talent etc., see the thread: Greensleeves, History of. I'd like to know who first said, or when it was first said, that Henry VIII wrote "Greensleeves," very probably without any evidence in the 20th century. Of course, a definitive collection of Henry VIII's music does not contain "Greensleeves": Music at the Court of Henry VIII [Musica Britannica, vol. XVIII], edited by John Stevens, first published in 1962, revised 1969, and reprinted 1973, 1978. It is "A popular volume of secular pieces, transcribed from the collection known as Henry VIII's Book, that captures the diverse musical life to be sampled at the court of England's most fascinating monarch." |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: Songwronger Date: 18 Dec 11 - 07:26 PM I've wondered about this--if Henry VIII really wrote it. For some reason I've always pictured some hapless musician at Henry's court coming up with the piece and then losing his head because Henry wanted to claim authorship. HENRY (to executioner) Stay the axe! (to the condemned) Here. Should I play an A minor or E minor? |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Dec 11 - 10:03 PM I think the notion that Hank the 8th wrote "Greensleeves" was hatched up by the same nitwit who claimed that Shakespeare's plays were written by seventeen other people. Don Firth |
Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer? From: GUEST,Doogie Date: 19 Dec 11 - 06:35 AM I think you will find as with ALL folk songs it was a Scottish tune stolen by the Irish and then plundered by the english! Haggis sleeves. |
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