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Eminem carrier of folk torch?

Kim C 21 Feb 01 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Matt_R 21 Feb 01 - 12:28 PM
Amergin 21 Feb 01 - 12:33 PM
Kim C 21 Feb 01 - 12:37 PM
Amergin 21 Feb 01 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Matt_R 21 Feb 01 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Matt_R 21 Feb 01 - 12:45 PM
Amergin 21 Feb 01 - 12:51 PM
mousethief 21 Feb 01 - 01:02 PM
Kim C 21 Feb 01 - 01:13 PM
mousethief 21 Feb 01 - 01:15 PM
Mrrzy 21 Feb 01 - 01:19 PM
Lady McMoo 21 Feb 01 - 01:21 PM
Kim C 21 Feb 01 - 01:22 PM
mousethief 21 Feb 01 - 01:25 PM
Pseudolus 21 Feb 01 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,UB Dan 21 Feb 01 - 01:37 PM
Kim C 21 Feb 01 - 01:37 PM
mousethief 21 Feb 01 - 01:48 PM
Pseudolus 21 Feb 01 - 01:53 PM
Kim C 21 Feb 01 - 01:59 PM
John Routledge 21 Feb 01 - 02:02 PM
ruthie-a 21 Feb 01 - 02:03 PM
Kim C 21 Feb 01 - 02:08 PM
Pseudolus 21 Feb 01 - 02:11 PM
mousethief 21 Feb 01 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,Matt_R 21 Feb 01 - 02:11 PM
Mrs.Duck 21 Feb 01 - 02:29 PM
Robo 21 Feb 01 - 02:36 PM
Rick Fielding 21 Feb 01 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,UB Dan 21 Feb 01 - 02:45 PM
Gary T 21 Feb 01 - 02:45 PM
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Kim C 21 Feb 01 - 04:08 PM
Mooh 21 Feb 01 - 04:09 PM
Kim C 21 Feb 01 - 04:20 PM
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Kim C 21 Feb 01 - 04:38 PM
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Kim C 21 Feb 01 - 05:10 PM
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Jim the Bart 22 Feb 01 - 05:31 PM
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Lady McMoo 23 Feb 01 - 05:38 AM
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Kim C 23 Feb 01 - 09:47 AM
Grab 23 Feb 01 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,Matt_R 23 Feb 01 - 09:59 AM
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Kim C 23 Feb 01 - 03:50 PM
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Subject: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:20 PM

Those of you who listen to NPR may have heard the story yesterday afternoon about several groups protesting the Grammy Awards tonight because of Eminem's scheduled appearance. I am only vaguely familiar with his work but I understand many people are offended by it, like they were with Alice Cooper in the 70s and Ozzy Osbourne in the 80s and all the rap guys in the 90s blahblahblahblahblah.

Apparently there's a song on his album wherein a man murders his wife. Of course the women's groups are all over this. A record company exec argued that this particular "song" fit into the centuries-old tradition of the Murder Ballad. A women's activist argued back that at the time these old murder ballads were written, a woman was her husband's property and the law would let him get away with anything.

Mister and I were talking about this and he brought up the point that in a good many of the old songs, the murderer is either a)sorry for what he's done; b)taken to prison; or c) both. Sometimes the murderer even kills himself. The point being, anyhow, that the man doesn't necessarily get away with murder in these old tunes.

I haven't heard the piece in question but I am roundly curious as to why it would arouse so much brewhaha, when no one made a peep about Lyle lovett's "The Lights of LA County," where a man shoots his old flame and her groom at the altar, or Garth Brooks' tune about the man driving his semi into the hotel, killing his cheating wife, or countless versions of "Knoxville Girl."

What do y'all have to say?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:28 PM

Kim, Eminem is a pig. His songs spew hatred of women and homosexuals. He sings about killing his wife, raping his mother, and executing gays. This piece of crap doesn't even deserve the title of "music" let alone "folk". His wife, who's name is Kim as well, called 911 one night when he was beating her. He later used the call in a song on his album called "Kim" and rapping about wishing she'd kill herself. In a Rolling Stone article he once said "Sometime for fun I'd like to kick a pregnant woman in the stomach". Tonight he's scheduled to sing with Elton John, even though his songs are loaded with anti-gay sentiments. Frankly, I hope Elton slams the little twit's head in the piano.

--Matt


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:33 PM

All he is is a juvenile trying to make a big name for himself....


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:37 PM

So then, aside from his crappy music, is it his insufferable personality that's causing all this fuss? If Garth Brooks was a jerk would the women's groups get upset with him too? I won't argue Eminem is a pig. What I'm trying to figure out is why one murder song will draw criticism that others don't.

On another note, I believe I read in the news awhile back that Eminem's wife dropped the charges and reconciled with him.

(I hope Elton kicks his ass too!)


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:41 PM

If you remember, Garth Brooks Thunder Rolls brought on lots of criticism too....but then most of the time people don't ever listen to the song they are protesting...the same thing goes with movies....How much do you want to bet that the vast majority of those who protested "Last Temptation of Christ" actually sat down and watched it?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:44 PM

Because in Eminem's case, he's probably speaking from personal experience about killing, where a more reputable artist would simply be singing a song.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:45 PM

I suppose "Cop Killah" would be a nice murder ballad as well...


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:51 PM

Matt, I don't think Eminem ever killed anyone. He is a craven coward. The fact that he beats on his wife, proves that. His cowardice is proven even more when he sang that song about wishing that she would kill herself. Like I said above is that he is just an immature juvenile trying to make a big name for himself through the easy path of notriety...


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:02 PM

I heard his mother sued him, though.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:13 PM

Y'all realize, right, that I'm just playin devils advocate here, tryin to foster a semi-intellectual discussion. :)

Thunder Rolls did get a lot of hype but I never heard One Single Peep about Mama's in the Graveyard, Papa's in the Pen.

Matt and Amergin I think you are both right.

Now - let me throw another fly in the ointment here. We can see people murdered in all manner of ways on TV or at the movies anytime of day. Why is it worse when it's a 4-minute soundbite? Eminem's up for Album of the Year, Gladiator's up for Picture of the Year. Y'all see Gladiator? I did. Good movie, lots of disgusting parts. Is the Motion Picture Academy glorifying violence by nominating this movie? Is NARAS doing the same by nominating Eminem?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:15 PM

How many teenagers put Gladiator in their walkman and listen to it over and over and over and over? Pop music is indoctrination. We're scared when kids are being indoctrinated into rape and hatred and murder. That's all.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:19 PM

I have to admit that I don't "get" it. I like a lot of music with words that might offend some, even myself, but I still like the music... in this case, though, what I hear isn't pretty, so even if it had nice words, I wouldn't like it. I have to agree with Kim's original wondering what it is with THIS particular offensive artist that has everyone so up in arms... I like murder ballads even though I don't like murder. I like church music even though I don't like organized religion. And so on. I guess to me nothing has to be a symbol, maybe? But it can be if I want it to be?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:21 PM

No. He is just an idiot.

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:22 PM

Maybe not Alex, but they do see rape and hatred and murder over and over and over on television, including the news.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:25 PM

Songs are different Kim. If we didn't think that we wouldn't be here on this website.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:27 PM

Murderers in the movies and on TV are generally seen as the "bad guys". So in fact I see it as a natural extension of that to portray Eminem as the "bad guy" since by his music he has put himself there. you bring up a good point about movies like Gladiator that sensationalize violence but they seem to be able to package it in a way that puts it in the third person. The person who wrote Gladiator didn't write in a part for him/herself. Society tends to accept those things (rightly or wrongly) a lot better than a singer/songwriter who's work and style seems to be based on anger and hatred. As much as I believe in his right to make his own "music" I must admit my 9 and 12 year old daughters are not permitted to own his CD. In fairness to myself, I won't be taking them to see Gladiator either!! :)

Good topic, makes you think....

Frank


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:37 PM

The interesting thing is that Eminem made a name for himself by rapping about how if he says awful things people will buy his albums and talk about him. Most of the time when he says the most offensive things he precedes it or follows it up with a comment that is basically "Can you believe I just said that". I don't think people listen to him because they want to kill people any more than I believe people watch the TV show "COPS" becauyse they want to see justice. Its entertainment through shock and hyperbole...

Many of his lyrics are also designed to remind his fans its just a song...don't believe everything he says. That's the whole point of one of his songs (Stan) where a fan writes in that he identifies with Eminem and eminem encourages him to look on the good things in life and seek help.

The reason people are up in arms his records are selling, there are countless performers and celebrities who say and DO things much worse than him and songs with violence have always been around...

what about the folk song where the wife feeds her husband marrow bones to make him blind so she can drown him in the river...

Each time samebody condemns eminem, 100's of people buy his record....and that's what he's been saying in his songs all along


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:37 PM

Okay, fair enough. Lemme throw this one out, then.

Songs are different, but they're not different. What I mean by that is, while a lot of people write songs from some deep personal experience, some people write songs as fiction, just like novelists or screenwriters do. We seem to naturally assume that the person singing the song IS the person in the song, but that's not necessarily true, anymore than the author of Silence of the Lambs is himself Hannibal Lecter.

Singers can be actors too. Garth Brooks isn't the man driving the semi into the hotel room and Lyle Lovett isn't the man with the 45 shooting up the church and Doc Watson ain't the man who killed little Sadie in the first degree. What is it that makes Eminem different? Because the kids like him? Kids like Garth too. Because he's already a jerk and this just gives us one more reason not to like him?

I really truly am just curious.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:48 PM

I think any kid who has sung "I'm gonna kill my momma" thousands of times is far more likely to do it than a kid who hasn't. Maybe I'm wrong. So sue me.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:53 PM

It's the assumption you talked about in your first paragraph that makes it different. Doesn't make it right but it does make it different. Music history is filled with songwriters who have strong feelings about someone or some group and they decide to write a song about it. How many love songs are true stories??? How many hate songs, disaster songs, or sad songs are true stories? How do you tell the difference? Some pretty intelligent people in this forum will probably tell you that they can't, at least not all the time. If that is true, what's to make me think that my kids will be able to? Therefore, I have to assume the worst and take the side of those who think that hate and anger are behind it all.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:59 PM

No, I don't think you're wrong. I am just trying to understand why This Particular Performer is getting so much attention when there are Others Like Him and Other Ways that People Can Be Offended and Other Ways that Kids Are Exposed to Nasty Stuff. Music is not the only evil.

But why do the kids like him anyway? I don't get it. Is it because their parents say no you can't have this CD in my house? It ain't because it's got a good beat and you can dance to it.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: John Routledge
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:02 PM

The publicity seems to be doing little damage.GB John


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: ruthie-a
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:03 PM

Right, now I'm going to speak as a child. A 13-year-old who hates being regarded as a child, admittedly, but I suppose I am one nevertheless.

I must make myself entirely clear that I loathe Eminem. I don't believe him to be a musician, never mind one worthy of credit. I think he is one of the most abhorrent, mindless idiots that is currently abroad in the charts and I'm sick to the back teeth of my friends trying to drum his 'genius' into my skull. I hate the talentless garbage that he has taken to producing, but I think there are a few misunderstandings here as to the 'child'.

It all depends upon what you think a child is. I'm 13 - most adults would still regard that as childhood. I have learnt nothing from Eminem and he has left no impression on me. Most people that I know from the age of 9 upwards are familiar with the concepts of rape, homophobia and murder, and few children under the age of 9 listen to Eminem. They learn that from the schoolyard and from the programmes they watch on television. They may become more familiar with these issues through Eminem, but they are generally aware that these actions and feelings are wrong. In fact, the adverse reaction to Eminem from the general public enforces how wrong these things are. There are always exceptions to the rule - but we can't blame Eminem for that. It's music.

Eminem also has a powerful turn of phrase. I don't like the things he's saying, but I can appreciate how he is good in his field. A field that's against my beliefs, but it's true.

There. You may disagree, but that's what I think. Most of my friends think that Eminem's one of the Gods' gifts to the pop charts, but I don't. I'm a folk addict, so what I feel about the Eminem-type genre is probably irrelevant. He's still racist, homophobic and sexist, all of which are bad traits in anybody. But that doesn't make him a bad rapper.

Ruthie


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:08 PM

All good insights. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:11 PM

This particular performer is constantly using the hate-card which is what seperates him from many others.

Now, don't get me wrong here but I think a lot of kids (especially the ones buying the CD's) will tell you that his music DOES have a beat and they CAN dance to it. I wouldn't go racing to the dancefloor when it came on but I'm officially middle-aged (so says my wife) and I wouldn't enjoy it.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:11 PM

Here's another point which was hinted at above: when people make a lot of noise about a singer, a movie, or whatever, all it does is serve to give it more publicity. Like when the Catholic Church makes a stink about some movie (e.g. Last Temptation of Christ). Far more people go out and see the movie than would otherwise have done. If people would ignore Eminem eventually he will go away.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:11 PM

Actually, it does. He's a whiny-voiced white boy who thinks he's something. He's not. He's nothing. At least Marilyn Manson has some degree of decency still left. Eminem doesn't.

BTW KID A by Radiohead is gonna win Album of The Year! It deserves to. Radiohead...REAL musicians who concentrate more on making music and always staying creative, not slapping sludge onto the same old tired rap beats like Eminem does.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:29 PM

I am against any form of racism or anti gay propaganda and do not feel that anyone has the right to free speech that can cause others to feel threatened or put down. In fact I have more concerns over this side of Eminem's 'music' than the killing aspect as I agree there have been many,many songs written about murder but to encourage children to denegrate blacks and gays is more subversive. I do agree however that giving such publicity to the records will have only served to increase sales!


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Robo
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:36 PM

This stuff is not Down in the Willow Garden, folks, which like other songs like it carried a sense of the wrongness of the killing and a regret for doing so. This tripe will turn the thinking person's stomach. And the question isn't his right to compose or perform any ol' song he likes. The real question is what value does the record company find in publishing this blather? The answer, sales show, is obvious. And my real worry isn't the next album he puts out but the coming deluge of imitating "artists" and other companies looking to cash in. That and the world view messages like his can instill in impressionable 8-12 year olds. I heard a mother say on TV that she sees it all as a put on, that it's funny to her kids. That, I think, is more the joke.

Rob-o


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:42 PM

Wow! It's simply "show biz", modern variety. Nothing more nothing less.

Eminem takes on a personna guaranteed to get him noticed.

The notoriety results in HUGE sales.

Huge sales equal COLOSSAL amounts of money.

Constant public debate means even more money.

Would any MAJOR record companies put taste ahead of profits? Of course not.

Eminem's personna works.

It may be sad, but it's sure as hell the reality.

Support Folk-Legacy records.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:45 PM

Quick point...to be fair Eminem does not have any racist lyrics...and the lyrics construed as homophobic are mostly just him using derogatory slang as an insult to certain individuals he dislikes...I don't believe he ever says let's beat up people who are homosexual, he says I hate the guy from this other rap group he stupid and probably gay and I want to beat him up....I think this is intolorant and derogatory, but it is not quite as vicious as some seem to suggest...

I'm not saying he is a great man...I don't want to hang out with him...but he's not the most dangerous thing in music today...


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Gary T
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:45 PM

I doubt I've ever heard Eminem. I have heard about him.

An article in the local paper yesterday shed a little light. Apparently many of those who are familiar with his chosen genre think he shows an extraordinary level of talent. I got the impression that they don't take the apparent messages in the songs too seriously. There were some hints that's it more posing than genuine expression of Eminem's viewpoints.

I take a reserved view of artists who are vehemently denounced. This bashing always reminds me of the uproar over Rock and Roll in the 50's, how it was leading our youth down a path of sin and immorality. Every generation seems to think that the controversial artists of its time were OK, but these new ones have crossed the line and it's just AWFUL--there was NOTHING like this in our day, and it will SURELY destroy the minds and morals of our kids. I'm seeing the same pattern in the criticism.

It's hard for me to imagine that Elton John would perform with Eminem if he thought that Eminem truly believed what his lyrics seem to say. Maybe he knows something that the general public is not aware of.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Robo
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:58 PM

Rick . . .

That's a pretty easy way out, I think. It says to me that since we can rationalize any reality then all realities are/ought to be acceptable to everyone. I don't buy that.

Rob-o


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 03:34 PM

This is a great discussion. I do believe, however, that Eminem will eventually melt like Vanilla Ice. Remember him?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Matt_R
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 03:38 PM

You mean the white boy with the gumby who stole chords from Queen?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 03:38 PM

Jim Morrison sang, "Father, I want to kill you."

This is very interesting, good points all round. I went ot a lyrics site and read a few of his. The most offensive thing I saw was "fuck" and "nigga." It was a quick scan, though. I'll have to go to some of the gay sites I know of and see what they have to say.

kat


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: LR Mole
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 03:44 PM

Well, no; I don't either. In fact it's hard to imagine an "evil" folkie, even crafting such a performance/identity without his or her skill or demeanor commenting on things.So, no, M&M ain't carrying any folk torch. On the other hand, he is the flavor-of-the-month in the popular (money-grabbing) arena, which always has had an element of the sideshow geek in it: real points exaggerated to ultra-simplicity have always sold, because they are easier than thinking. Certainly people who have had miserable childhoods, see the world in terms of certainties, and see themselves as people with a license to hurt and kill to redress these matters are attractive to the immature. But skillfully applied mud is still mud.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Robo
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 03:45 PM

Good point indeed, Kat. Still, how many 8-12 year olds had copies of the Doors album? Don't think it was Grammy material, either.

Rob-o


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Hawker
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 03:47 PM

Who?

And that is the way it is going to stay.......

Lucy!


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: LR Mole
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 03:49 PM

If I repeat something enough, does it turn into rap? Am I getting paid?

oops, double-posting deleted
maybe they pay in p-nuts?**BG**
- la joeclone -


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:08 PM

Nice try, Mole, but no seegar!

I was a teenager back in the 80s when Tipper Gore started the PMRC. None of us kids could really figure out why. I guess there were some things on people's albums that were offensive but the stuff on the radio back then seemed pretty inocuous, at least it did to us anyway. My friends and I were listening to the Police and Duran Duran and Culture Club. Ozzy took a lot of heat for some of his hijinks but I was never into that.

I guess what I'm saying is, these same sorts of arguments have been made for years about different people (which someone already pointed out) and I really have to say, pop music never convinced me to do anything except sing along. And Joe Camel never convinced me to smoke either.

Now - that being said - I realize there are people of a very sensitive nature who could be set over the edge by the least thing, a song on the radio included. But I think they are in the minority.

No, he is not carrying a folk torch, but I found it interesting that the record company exec on the news story compared the song "Kim" to an old-time murder ballad. I think she had grounds there from the standpoint that songs about death, murder and violence have been around ever since people have been singing. But like Rob-o said, the perpetrators in a lot of those old songs either have remorse or get punished.

And the Doors were popular in their day, Grammy or no Grammy, and Riders on the Storm was a hit song.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Mooh
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:09 PM

Break it down for a moment. If the message was one of peace and happiness, the music would still suck. If the music was the most appealing and original, the message would still suck. If the rhythm was original, it would have worthy immitators, but it's not and it doesn't. If his personna was universally attractive, it still wouldn't carry the music. If the music was universally attractive, it doesn't mean he is.

His message, as shallow as it is, spews intolerance, disrespect, hate, violence, dysfunction, phobias galour, and is an indicator of just how twisted one can be and get attention for it. This asshole should be a footnote in a phychiatric text, not a pop icon. Every sale he is given only rewards him for his vitriol, and validates his opinions and his attention grabbing self-absorption.

So far I've been spared his crap in my home, I hope because his target audience here can see through his transparent shit.

I personally don't really care about his style, though I think it's inane, but his message shows an immaturity which doesn't deserve reward. It is wasteful of time, money, and resources to reproduce, and I hope he realizes some shame about his behavior before he influences too many more impressionable people.

Peace, while it's still possible, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:20 PM

Wow,Mooh... good job! :)


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Matt_R
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:27 PM

I don't get the Ozzy thing. I've been listening to him a LOT in the last few weeks...I don't see anything that would get people upset. I just don't get it. I like Ozzy's stuff a lot. Compared to Eminem, Ozzy is a saint.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:38 PM

With Ozzy - and with Alice Cooper - I think it was more his stage antics than anything else. Some people were upset by his Mr. Crowley song, claiming it promoted satanism. Others were upset with Suicide Solution, claiming it promoted suicide although I am given to understand it was actually an anti-suicide song.

Some entertainers just like to shock people. They live on the attention.

I saw Marilyn Manson on Letterman one night - he didn't perform, just came out for an interview. Strange outfit aside, I was surprised at how very vanilla he was. Bland. I thought, so THIS is what all the fuss is about? Hmph. I did see him on the American Music Awards or whatever that show was and I wasn't too impressed. Not my kind of music.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Matt_R
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:51 PM

Yeah Mr.Crowley & Suicide Solution! Great songs. Actually, Alistair Crowley was into mysticism of all sorts, not Satanism. And yes Suicide Solution is anti-suicide, just like "Don't Try Suicide" by Queen.

Momma, I'm coming home...


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Mooh
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:55 PM

Why thank you, Kim. The folk torch, you ask? Not bloody likely. Seems to me that perspective and context are required to continue a tradition with respect. I just don't see it in this case.

As for comparing this sort of music to that of other generations which pushed the boundaries of acceptability, I offer this: We live in the most untethered social times known since the dawn of the round Earth. Within this context we have not seen a consistent testing of the norms of society, we have seen an increasing abuse of those norms. I happen to think that mutual respect should be a condition of societal tests.

Compare for example the outrageous lyrics of the '50's to that of today. Within the context of the era, today's are much more outrageous. Just because time has passed or we are accustomed to being tested in this regard does not mean that the limits of acceptability should be eroded until there are none. One does not have to be religious to expect or accept the 10 Commandments and the Golden Rule as guides. They are very practical for the continuance of dignity and self-preservation. There are other simple guides too, from many societies, but espousing hate has never been a successful one for long.

As for our subject being regarded as worthy expression or art, I'll bet that time will prove otherwise. In the meantime, because of the ability and influence of mass reproduction, media, style, image, advertising, and marketing, there will be considerable confusion about whether it constitutes fine art or refined crap, particularly among those who can afford to buy it but can't yet afford to understand it.

I'm outa breath. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 05:10 PM

Dern, friend, I don't think can follow that! :)


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 05:43 PM

...next time I'm in charge of sorting





...I'm keeping the W&Ws...


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 06:04 PM

Wow, Mooh is on a roll and a damn fine one at that!

John H...what flavours do W&W's come in? Do they melt in your mouth but not in your hand?

Rob-O...true back then 8-12 yr olds usually didn't have the access they do now. My son *heard* the Doors in utero every day I was preggers with him and he turned out okay.**BG** (My ex lived to hear the Doors!)

Anyway, from www.gaywired.com, one of my fav gay sites (I've put in BOLD what I consider the most insightful point of this op/ed piece, in the last paragraph:)

Eminem and Feminem to Perform Tonight
by Craig Chester

While watching TV yesterday, I saw a promo for the Grammy Broadcast tonight.

"Tune in Wednesday for the controversial Eminem duet with Elton John!" the commercial wailed". Obviously, controversy is expected to pay off with big ratings and big bucks, this time materializing in NBC and the two music superstar's bank accounts.

A couple of years ago, Elton John spoke movingly about the need to eliminate hatred and discrimination against gays and lesbians at a Mathew Sheppard Memorial.

``When I fly over America on my broomstick, as I often do a lot, I get to feeling what a big country this is - it's big enough for everyone, and despite all the progress that has been made in rights and tolerance, we are still living in a world of hate.''

John will take the stage at the Grammy Awards ceremony tonight with Eminem - the rapper whose album is riddled with violent references to ``fags", among others. And is it just me, but I suddenly hear people - who never like this kind of rap music- now jumping on the hip hop bandwagon and calling him a genius. Everyone's entitled to his or her own taste, but Eminem ain't Bob Dillon, in my book. Fun, yeah. Groovy, yeah but GENIUS? I mean, Milli Vinilli won a Grammy, ok?

Now, I am a big free speech advocate. That comes first, and it's not right to censor, of course. But at the same time, my right to free speech is the ability to disagree with what I perceive to be misguided or just untrue. That's all. The scariest thing about Eminem is not Eminem, but that so many people relate to his lyrics – that says something major. But in America, he can express himself and so can I.

Melissa Etheridge, the lesbian singer and outspoken proponent of gay rights, declined to criticize him, describing Eminem as talented while acknowledging that his words were hurtful, which is democracy in action. So, why isn't Elton acknowledging Eminem's talent while recognizing his words are hurtful? It was just last year Elton stormed off the stage while performing with Tina Turner because she was 'bossy'. I guess she's not enough of a 'genius' to overlook bossiness!

Eminem's lyrics, which call gays ``sick'' and joke about stabbing them. In the song ``Criminal,'' he raps: ``My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge/ That'll stab you in the head/ whether you're a fag or lez/ Or the homosex, hermaph or a trans-a-vest/ Pants or dress - hate fags? The answer's `yes'.''

If Tina Turner suddenly started belting out songs describing how much she hates lezzies and fags, I don't think Elton would have overlooked that as a brilliant artistic turn, because – she's not selling records and Eminem is. ``The Marshall Mathers LP'' has been nominated for the Grammys' highest honor, album of the year. He is also nominated in three rap categories.

Eminem's spokesman, Dennis Dennehy, said the music industry has not flogged Eminem because ``Artists are tuned to artistic expression, and I don't think any of them would favor stifling that.''

But one of the few gay artists who has voiced disdain for Eminem is Boy George, whose gender-bending ways with the band Culture Club pushed the boundaries in the 1980s.

``Nobody wants to sort of battle against success. It's one of those things; if you slag him off, you on the one hand will appear bitter, and on the other hand you will appear uncool,'' George said.

``If Pol Pot had a successful record, people would probably be running around him as well.''

He accused John of performing with Eminem simply to bolster his own 'street cred' and album sales.

``Eminem is a really cool young artist, and Elton I guess feels it's good for his career. I don't think it's anything deeper than that,'' he said.

``The thing is, Elton John is fine, Elton John is a multimillionaire - Elton John lives in a bubble,'' George said. ``But what about all the little kids who live in the projects, the effeminate boys or lesbians and gays out there in the real world, getting beat up? What about people like Matthew Shepard? They don't live in that bubble.''

John has said he does not believe Eminem is hateful.

``I'm a big fan of his music, and I said I would be delighted to'' perform with him, the British superstar told the Los Angeles Times. ``If I thought for one minute that he was (hateful), I wouldn't do it.''

Gay activists plan to picket the awards ceremony. George supports the rally, but wonders whether attention paid to Eminem isn't counterproductive.

``I think sort of blacklisting him is just as bad,'' he said. ``The more people moan about him being there, the more people moan about what he's saying, the more records he seems to sell.''

Ultimately, Eminem's music and his right to free speech are two separate issues. But free speech doesn't work if only one side is 'speeching'. The great thing about this controversy is that is has begun a public debate about censorship and free speech at a time when a conservative President who wants to abolish the NEA takes office. But most artists don't construct their art on hating people. The role of art is to enlighten, isn't it? I don't hear any gay artists going around talking about killing heteros and raping their babies. I'm just hoping that Elton and Eminem do a rousing version of John's "Can you feel the love tonight".

Now, that would be news.

© 2000 GayWired; All Rights Reserved.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Mooh
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 06:41 PM

Yeah Kat, but it's kinda like preaching to the choir, ain't it?

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 06:57 PM

I think he ought to keep on scoring on that success. Why not go see the Fleet people and market the "Eminmen Enema?" Just listen to this CD folks and it'll give you the shits.

Or maybe he could approach the M&M folks for his own line of candies, even in a new color......all white.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 07:06 PM

Hey 'Spaw, that's hard on us who need our regular colonoscopy checks! Easy there man!

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 07:26 PM

I don't know the eminem (could that possibly be spelled "emena"?), but it sounds like a $$$$$Persona to me. See the WWF, RAW, etc. For some reason (that "most of us like???", entertainment has turned very dirty.

Yes, '50's was radical, yes, Chuck Berry and Elvis were radical......but not ugly. I am with Kim C on this one. It would be interesting to know just why........

"Why" is ugly cool? "Why" is dirty now nice? "Why" is fake now better than real?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Matt_R
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 11:20 PM

Well it was very Z-inducing. DAMN Radiohead didn't win Album of the year! That pissed me off. Oh well, at least the Moby performance rocked!


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: leprechaun
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 11:45 PM

Hang down your head Slim Shady. Hang down your head and cry. Hang down your hear Slim Shady. Poor boy you're bound to die.

or

Don't fuck with Dooley. Tom Dooley's gonna kill you.

For our generation to piss off our parents, all we need was love, and unrestricted sex, and maybe some THC, and a few other chemicals. How the hell are our kids gonna top that? By glorifying criminality even more than we did. All they need is hate and violence, and bitches and ho's, and gats and drive-bys, and rape drugs, and yay, and pimpin' ain't easy.

Between Satan music and Gangsta rap, we have a large segment of our youth who have magnified our own cynicism and made it fashionable to be sociopaths. A sociopath only cares about one person. Note the self-centered narcissism of almost every rap song, not just Eminem's. Once a sociopath stops caring about that one person, they get to become an even more glorified icon of the new generation, a psychopath.

We've seen psychopaths at work at Thurston and Columbine High Schools. It's amazing it doesn't happen more often.

So what are Eminem's kids gonna do to piss him off?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: jaze
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:37 AM

"He's not the most dangerous thing in music today"..Then God help us ...what is?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Robo
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:49 AM

Maybe it's whatever it is that makes his "art" turn stomach.

Rob-o


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,SeanM, sick of resetting cookies
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 02:30 AM

Hi all...

My take on all this? I'd say the main reason that the lad is getting so much flak is due to the popularity.

This is where I think that the folk-Eminemineminem comparison has the problem. I DO think that songs like "Banks of the Ohio" and the like would cause an uproar, but only if they were as widespread and widely played as Emineminemineminem's stuff is, and (perhaps more importantly) folk was a format that parents were uncomfortable with.

Honestly? I really believe that if the ol' boy hadn't latched on to the promotion machine and stayed a minor player in the recording industry, NOONE would care. While extreme, his lyrics aren't anywhere as bad as some other rap lyrics are. I'll GUARANTEE you that if you look around (NWA, Professor Griff etc), you'll find lyrics with more vitriol, homophobia, mysoginy, racism, etc. than ANYTHING that Eminem has put out.

Now... I also don't defend his lyrics as "good" or inoffensive either. Personally, I really think he sucks. However, I also don't think he's as "extreme" as he's been painted. He's merely cursed with being highly visable and popular.

Now... if you want 'extreme'... go look up GG Allin & the Murder Junkies. Now HE was a sick bastard.

And stay outta my early punk collection. It's all Tipper-friendly. Really. Honestly.

M


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:09 AM

Leprechaun,

What are eminem's kids gonna do to piss him off? Perhaps if he has a son, he will come home one day and say, "Dad, I'd like you to meet my fiancee.....Bob...

Ohhh, I'd love to be there for that one!!!!

Frank


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Grab
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:25 AM

The rap "Stan" (I'm not going to get into the argument over whether rap is a song or not, but it's certainly a rap :-) is actually pretty potent. The protagonist is obsessed by a pop star, and drives off a bridge with his wife in the boot of the car ("trunk" of the car for Americans).

Not exactly a peaceful loving song. But the protagonist dies, and he was very obviously a twisted individual anyway. Doesn't sound too much like glorifying it, any more than the film "Falling Down" glorified a twisted person flipping out. Much better than many folk/blues songs which often don't give any consequences of the murder. As an example, can anyone tell me how many wife-killings were caused by Hendrix singing "Hey Joe"? See how daft it is?

Sure, maybe homophobes will listen to the music for that, in the same way nutters in the 70s may have listened to Anarchy in the UK or other similar songs from the Sex Pistols and other punk bands. But ppl who aren't nutters are going to think "Oh, I'd better kill someone today", and anyone who is already a nutter is going to do it anyway, they're just looking for an excuse.

Grab.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:31 AM

Gee Matt, I heard that there were some real bright spots and highlights at the awards. Joni Mitchell was voted "Performer Most Likely To Wind Up As A Dried-Up Applehead." And the special thing with Bono and U-2 as the "Group Most Likely To Turn-Up on Other Artists' Tributes."

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:35 AM

I'm not an Eminem fan. Or a Marilyn Manson fan (although his music is slightly better). I thought both of their stage performances were jokes. I read a very good article a while ago (in the Mirror, of all papers!) about an Eminem concert. Apparently the audience was mostly middle to upper-middle class teenage girls, lapping up the "rebelliousness" of it all as it's so far removed from their nice suburban lifestyles. The journalist considered it all a big show in the style of the shock rockers who have gone before: Ozzy bit the head of a bat (albeit alledgedly unknowingly); Eminem was questioned about popping a probable asprin onstage and pretending it was E. Jim Morrison was arrested for obscenities onstage; Eminem sings about murder. Certain bands are always out to shock, and as for being a danger to society, well no one takes bands like Iron Maiden seriously, so they? Did they? Isn't Eminem just the next in a long line?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:39 AM

(ooops - for "so" in the last line, read "do")


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:41 AM


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: LR Mole
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:43 AM

And spring, and age, will come...


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:49 AM

Spaw - you mean Bono can take time off from saving the world from debt and misery to collect an award? Phew - what a guy!


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:57 AM

Fibula, I saw Iron Maiden in concert, oh, probably 16 years ago maybe? I don't recall what any of their lyrics were about, but let me tell you, those were a bunch of guys what could Play Their Instruments. I never did care for that screaming style of singing - but it was some of the best heavy rock guitar playing I ever saw in my life. I don't recall they did anything shocking on stage, they just stood there and did their thing. My boyfriend at the time played in a heavy metal band so I went with him to some concerts, even though I wasn't a great fan. Of all the shows I went to see with him, Kiss and Iron Maiden were probably the two best.

I agree with Sean that if Eminem hadn't got into the publicity we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

I didn't watch the award show. I was hanging out on PBS watching a splendid documentary on Abe and Mary Lincoln. :)

Thanks for all your comments, folks.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:00 AM

I really hated hearing Hammerite (9) & her friends play the eminem CD - very graphic sexual imagery etc. And tons of gratuitous swearing. I was telling her how disgusting I found it the other day, and what utter crap I thought it was. She wondered how come, then, I was quite happy to let her listen to (& sing along with) Ian Dury & the Blockheads' [F**** Ada, Plaistow Patricia etc]? Got me there, kid. I'd like to think the two things are vastly different - but I'm not sure how far I'd convince her...
Of course, Ian Dury was a genius, and very sorely missed.

Kris


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 11:07 AM

Kim C - I agree with you about Iron Maiden (and any band that does Jethro Tull covers has my vote) - I was a metaller too! I meant their lyrics and stage presence (e.g. "Daughter to the Slaughter" and Eddie on stage) - it had the Daily Mail readers worried at the time, but none of the fans turned out evil, unless you count dodgy fringes.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 11:12 AM

All of us of a certain age have heard all this before. Yes, we do sound like our parents.

As always, in discussions like this there are a number assumptions which range from questionable to really silly.
1st assumptions about Eminem
1. Eminem intends for his songs to have a moral message.
2. The message is clear and unequivocal.
3. The message is the opinion of the singer.

2nd about the world we live in
4. The message in Eminen's song is clearly and unequivocally "bad" by some universal and reasonable criteria of "badness."
5. It is bad for people to express bad messages.

3rd about Eminem's audience
6. Eminem's audience correctly understands the message
7. They are listening to his music for moral guidance.
8. They will do "bad" things on the basis of the moral guidance they receive from his music.
9. Eminem's music is a cause of these "bad" things rather than a symptom.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Gary T
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 11:23 AM

By George, Russ, I think you've got it!

Anyone got a rope?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 04:58 PM

I was looking for the song Woody Guthrie wrote that had the cop-killing bit in it, and found this one, MEAN TALKING BLUES instead. I don't know who harvested that one, but maybe Art was "channeling" Woody.

Songs are written by the younger generation sometimes just to piss off the older/establishment folks. This is traditional. I seem to remember songs being considered controversial and being banned from airplay when I was younger. The thing is, they were our songs, so they were better.

Matt, I agree with you about Moby Grape last night - they absolutely kicked ass! (And if that wasn't a traditional song they did, it sure sounded like one.)


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 05:16 PM

eminem is a stupid wigger mother folker Woody Guthrie Wanna be


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 05:31 PM

Jeri - you were kidding when you added "Grape", right?

Another "pop" star, pushing the limits of the older generation's tolerance. Elvis. Jerry Lee. Mick Jagger. Jim Morrison. Iggy Stooge. Alice Cooper. Ozzy Osbourne.

Now it's Kid Rock, Snoop Dog & Eminem.

The thing that really bothered me last night (other than some of the "fashion")was Steely Dan winning for best album. A great victory for the old, safe and familiar. Also for the irrelevant. Flatulent, watered-down soul/jazz muzick.

Matt - you're wrong about Eminem but right about Radiohead. "Kid A" is strong stuff.

Bart


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 05:40 PM

Bart - well, they had Blue Man Group out there, who are sort of grape colored. Sure it was on purpose! Did you think I just sort flashed back to a different group and "Grape" slipped out? That's what happened.

Now, what was the name of the song, please?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 05:45 PM

Jeri, Moby is just Moby! Lol! And he's just one guy...the bald, rather unseeming gent in the jeans & sweatshirt. He never sings or anything...he's more of DJ-like mixer Techo-god, like The Chemical Brothers or Fatboy Slim. His latest album "Play" has a lot of techno versions of old blues recordings. Moby is a really intelligent guy if you ever get to hear him speak. And I love his fashion-sense...my kinda guy.

Bart...I'm not sure what you mean about me being "wrong" about Eminem. I'd don't like him, and there's no two ways about it. Seems theres a lot of Eminem-defending on this thread...I'm not sure why I get such heat over Oasis...

Oh well.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 06:43 PM

Matt - I meant that he isn't a killer, he is an artist; whether a good one or not is anyone's opinion. Last summer I sat down with my sister-in-law's step-son (got that?) who was listening to some pretty radical stuff in the rap/death metal vein. Eminem was the only one I can remember specifically. To make a long story short, I just wanted to listen to try to figure out if this stuff was truly evil or just a bunch of hooey. What struck me was a spoken "disclaimer" of sorts that Eminem has on the front of his song killer. He says that this stuff is just his music and that you shouldn't mistake it for reality. It's the same kind of acknowledgment of theatricality that Kiss showed when they would do their bow at the end of a concert.

Sure his stuff is hate-filled; but what people who don't listen miss is that it mostly the kind of self-loathing, angst riddled sh*t that seems to connect for a lot of teenagers. Take the song he did last night on the Grammies. He's speaking for a lot of unwanted, unloved kids and he's doing it quite eloquently. He's talking about the false hero-worship that a lot of black tee-shirted latch-key kids have been lugging around with them. And the disillusionment that they get back in return. Who else is even acknowledging that these kids exist before they decide to blow up their school?

The question people should be asking after last night is not "why is this guy on the Grammies?" It should be "why does this music connect with so many young people?"

I think that the vocal on the recording of the song that Moby did last night (the part sang by the woman singer, who's name I don't know) was a sample of an old blues tune from the archives. It's almost as scary as Ralph Stanley singing "Oh, Death" in "Brother, Where Art Thou?".

later, all
Bart


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 07:05 PM

Funny that so much discussion has taken place already and nobody has posted any lyrics or any links to them. Well, here are two:
Eminem Song Lyrics Source: New Eminem Lyrics
eminem lyrics

Here's the song called "Stan," which eminem and Elton John performed at the Grammys last night. I believe Elton sang the chorus, the lyrics of which are given in italics here, and eminem did the rest.

Here's the other site's transcription of "Stan"


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:37 PM

"carrier of folk torch"? Visualize {index finger stuck down throat}...or don't if you'd rather not. It's a business, and if nobody buys his stuff, he'll either change or go away.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: leprechaun
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:15 PM

Jeri - I looked at that Woody Guthrie song you linked. The last verse mentions Mike Tyson, who probably wasn't even born before Woody Guthrie died. Somebody's messing with that song. In Woody's book, he wrote, "Never trust a smiling cop."

I can't deny the artistry of Eminem's "Stan," on the album or with Elton John at the Emmy's. What pisses me off about Eminem and most rappers is the arrogant, pugnacious attitude. Every rap song seems to spew out this "I am the baddest and I'll kick your ass" attitude. I guess that pisses me off because I happen to know that I really am the baddest and I will kick your ass, but only if you force me to. I don't feel the need to threaten or intimidate or insult people or bruit it about that I have this vicious animal in me just waiting to get out. I trust that animal to come out when I need it, but I would feel unmanly if I couldn't contol it. And I think it's unmanly to constantly present that disrespectful, angry, intimidating attitude to the world.

I think it's sick to get off on frightening people. And most rap songs seem to revel in frightening people.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:19 PM

Coldplay. Travis. Lifehouse. Check them out. And smile.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Alice
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:59 PM

I still say rap is not music. Speaking to a beat with words that rhyme is not a song. I saw a bit of the Elton John and the "em" guy performance last night. As he mumbled into the mic I thought, "That ain't workin...".
Anyway, what Elton John was doing and what Eminem was doing seemed so incongruous, they didn't belong in the same performance. It seemed to be someone's idea to get more people to watch a rather dull awards show.

Knowing many people who have been through cult experiences of different kinds and are now trying to get back their sanity and sense of self, I do know that alot of mental programming can be done with words that rhyme to a beat repeated over, and over, and over... To the vulnerable person, it fills a void and makes them feel empowered to be able to identify with someone like eminem. I remember rebelling when I was young by singing "All you need is love" while bombs dropped in Viet Nam. I'm too aware of people who rebel against the older generation by glorifying criminal behavior. I see Eminem's pop success as some rap industry people making lots of money, nothing really about free speech, although that is their excuse for producing and promoting it. Elvis could sing. He made music. Eminem doesn't. He just spouts off for the shock value.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 01:12 AM

"Rap is not music" ???

See, that's just silly. Who are you, or who am I, to judge what is and what is not music? Maybe you don't understand this music, but that's because of your own limitations, not the music's. I listen to music from... say, Badakhshan. To me, it sounds beautiful. To someone in Dargh, it might sound beautiful. To some Eminem fan from Wichita, it probably sounds like some old crone, screeching inarticulately and slapping a drum. It's probably not the Eminem fan's thing, right? He might be heard to say something like: "That's not music, that's shit. Some old woman with no talent." But is she? Perhaps she is one of the most respected singers and dâyra players in her region. So, is he, this Eminem fan from Wichita, correct when he says "that's not music?" No. He's just ignorant of anything that's not urban and American. So his opinion on this old woman from Badakhshan isn't important to her, to me, to you, or to the world. He is wrong.

Don't be an Eminem fan from Wichita.

---Lepus Rex (up the irons:P)


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 05:38 AM

My daughter has a fair number of rap records, none of which are "gangsta rap". Far from not being music, I'd go as far as to say some are excellent and enjoyable and just as much a valid musical form as "folk" (whatever that might be - (;>))

But as for Eminem, he's just a plonker...

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 09:35 AM

What about the old tradition of talking blues...is that music. I'd certainly like to think so.

As for the boasting and bragging, rap grew out of a sort of battle of the DJ's. In the same way that groups would compete in break dancing, rap was a sort of competition. Most of the time when a rapper is boasting and bragging he is boasting about his skills as a rapper...of course gangsta rap also involves boasting about virility. Think of each time Ulysses (greek not irish) each time he introduces himself he lists all of his accomplishments and tells everybody how great he is, and every time he meets a woman....and its all done in rhyme


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 09:47 AM

Remember Aerosmith? "Walk This Way"? Rap if ever I heard it. Seems like one of the rap groups actually did a version of this song not too awfully long ago.

I have heard it argued before that rap is a type of folk music because it supposedly expresses the values/concerns/etc. of a particular group of people. I don't know enough to agree or disagree with that.

I just got the Coldplay CD. I really dig it. :)


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Grab
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 09:51 AM


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 09:59 AM

Yeah, it was Aerosmith with Run-DMC, they remade it back around 1988. Though I must say that the part that Run-DMC rapped on just didn't have the same character as when Aerosmith did it solo.

Remember Kim, let the CD play to hear the secret track "Life Is For Living".


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Grab
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 10:03 AM

Cheers for the link, Jim. For those who didn't follow the link, the song after "Stan" is called "Who knew" - a few extracts...

...
Get aware, wake up, get a sense of humor
Quit tryin to censor music, this is for your kid's amusement
But don't blame me when lil' Eric jumps off of the terrace
You shoulda been watchin him - apparently you ain't parents
...
And last week, I seen a Schwarzenegger movie
where he's shootin all sorts of these motherfuckers with a uzi
I sees three little kids, up in the front row,
screamin "Go," with their 17-year-old Uncle
I'm like, "Guidance - ain't they got the same moms and dads
who got mad when I asked if they liked violence?"
And told me that my tape taught 'em to swear
...
How many retards'll listen to me
and run up in the school shootin when they're pissed at a
teach-er, her, him, is it you is it them?
"Wasn't me, Slim Shady said to do it again!"

Still reckon the guy's got nothing useful to say? I personally don't like his style of music that much, but he can write. Dylan couldn't sing either (still can't), but he wrote some fine lyrics.

Incidentally Matt, Moby is a fine guitar player - he did some acoustic bits on a live show over in the UK last year.

Grab.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 10:04 AM

I once heard someone say that Dylan's Subterranean Homesick Blues was the first Rap song. Interesting thought.

"Twenty years of schooling and they put you on the day shift".


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 10:11 AM

It looked like it, Grab! He was playing bass and singing backup...I'd love to have heard him do some acoustic stuff.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 03:50 PM

I've heard Michael Martin Murphey say that "Chisholm Trail" is a rap song. To prove his point he actually performed it that way. It was a stitch! :)


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Alice
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 04:01 PM

I call it a genre of poetry, including talking blues, but I still don't call it music; music may be in the background, but I stand by my opinion. We have had previous thread debates on the subject of rap, here's one - Is Rap Folk? click here Just because I say something isn't music, that it's poetry, doesn't mean I am invalidating it as an artform. It's just a different art than music. Poetry with musical accompaniment, then. Mouth music is not the same as speaking. Rap is speaking, even when music is added or singing is interspersed with the poetry. You're not going to change my mind on this, so let me have my opinion and you can have yours.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,tiggerdoooley
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 04:19 PM

"I searched 'till I found them/ Then I cursed at the sight/ Of their sleeping shadows in the cold neon light/ In the dark morning silence/ I placed the gun to her head/ She wore red dresses but now she lay dead..." Dwight Yoakam, 'Buenas Noches from a Lonely Room', 1988. Ban this little punk! Who does he think he is, polluting our children's minds with this mysoginistic filth. Hatred and violence have no place in music....... (Look for a similar scenario in the song 'Guilty Conscience' by Eminem. He handles it much the same.)


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 04:24 PM

One of my favorite Marty Robbins songs is "They're Hanging Me Tonight," about a fella who kills his "pretty Flo and that good for nothin man."

Just for the record, I have no opinion on rap. But I like hearing everyone else's.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 11:07 PM

Folks,

The media has spelled his name wrong.

It's actually.............................

ENEMA!!!!!

Rap is crap.

mav out


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Feb 01 - 01:56 AM

Yeah, that equally hilarious the first several times people said it on this thread, Mav. :P

And Alice, ok, that's your opinion. But what about the, oh, I don't know, 99% of rappers who would consider what they do to be "music" or "singing?" Are they wrong? And at what point would you consider their work to be "musical?" What would the artist have to be doing differently?

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Alice
Date: 24 Feb 01 - 05:28 PM

Well, Lepus Rex, remember the stereotype of beatniks reciting their poetry to bongo rhythm accompaniment in coffee houses? Remember Allan Ginsberg reciting poetry to the drone of an Indian shruti box? It was even called "beat", but it was still poetry. Then, the urban form of poetry that we call rap came to the awareness of the recording industry, and geez, you couldn't call it poetry, that's too intellectual, too uncool, too hard to sell. It's my opinion that marketing people decided to call it music instead of poetry. Even though it is spoken with musical accompaniment soundtracks, backup singers, etc., speaking is not singing, poetry is poetry, and I'm sorry the recording industry chose to call it music instead of what it is - kids would think poetry is "cool" if they had. But, poetry is egghead, music is cool, so it is called music in order to sell more of it.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: tiggerdooley
Date: 24 Feb 01 - 05:37 PM

It's more than speaking and it's not quite singing. "Ooooh!" That's why it's got it's own name - it's rap, and he's darn good at it. He's not just talking, he's pattering out some amazing rhythms and rhymes with his clever choice of words. I don't want to over-intellectualize it, but seeing as we're all picking it apart, then I'm gonna have to.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Alice
Date: 24 Feb 01 - 05:49 PM

oops, spelling, that should be Allen Ginsberg, not Allan.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: ray bucknell
Date: 24 Feb 01 - 08:14 PM

I think it was Louis Armstrong who said, "All music is folk music. I never heard no horse sing a song."


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Feb 01 - 12:30 AM

Get aware, wake up, get a sense of humor Quit tryin to censor music, this is for your kid's amusement But don't blame me when lil' Eric jumps off of the terrace You shoulda been watchin him - apparently you ain't parents ... And last week, I seen a Schwarzenegger movie where he's shootin all sorts of these motherfuckers with a uzi I sees three little kids, up in the front row, screamin "Go," with their 17-year-old Uncle I'm like, "Guidance - ain't they got the same moms and dads who got mad when I asked if they liked violence?" And told me that my tape taught 'em to swear ... How many retards'll listen to me and run up in the school shootin when they're pissed at a teach-er, her, him, is it you is it them? "Wasn't me, Slim Shady said to do it again!"

Well, it sure as hell ain't Dylan. In fact, if this is the best he's got, I'd rate the average Mudcat Song Challenge entry about three notches above it. Sorry...if Elton had any balls at all he'd have kicked his ass instead of singing a duet with him and giving him a soul-hug, but I guess that's the music bu$ine$$.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: tiggerdooley
Date: 25 Feb 01 - 09:00 AM

Music is all about personal opinion, Lonesome. No, he ain't Dylan, and by the same token Dylan ain't Eminem. Dylan was relevant for the 'kids' in his 'time', and the same goes for Eminem now. The times, Lonesome, they are a changin', so keep up. As for the lyrical sample you give - well that's some serious social commentary, actually. We're not raising our kids with any shred of a moral conscience, and we're blaming it on some easy scapegoats AND, we're helping them make a lot of dough in the process. Cool!


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: tiggerdooley
Date: 25 Feb 01 - 09:15 AM

Oh yeah, and don't do drugs!


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Alice
Date: 25 Feb 01 - 12:38 PM

Well, this is an example of Eminem lyrics. He doesn't sing about other people's hate, he sings about his own hate. To sing about hate and violence (as in folk songs, C&W songs), is different than singing to encourage and brag about hate and violence. Judge for yourself:

You faggots keep eggin me on
til I have you at knifepoint,
then you beg me to stop?
SHUT UP! Give me your hands and feet
I said SHUT UP when I'm talkin to you
YOU HEAR ME? ANSWER ME!...
"Slim Anus," you damn right, Slim Anus
I don't get fucked in mine like you two little
flaming faggots!...
My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge
That'll stab you in the head
whether you're a fag or lez
Or the homosex, hermaph or a trans-a-vest
Pants or dress - hate fags? The answer's "yes"
Homophobic? Nah, you're just heterophobic
Starin at my jeans, watchin my genitals bulgin
(Ooh!)
That's my motherfuckin balls, you'd better
let go of em
They belong in my scrotum, you'll never
get hold of em
Hey, it's me, Versace
Whoops, somebody shot me!...


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Alice
Date: 25 Feb 01 - 01:06 PM

oops, I said sing about - should have said he "talks about" his own hate.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Feb 01 - 01:53 PM

Thanks, Alice. That chunk of "lyrics" does make the other look like poetry in comparison.

Guess what? If the "times are a-changin'" to that kind of sentiment, leave me out of it. But I don't believe it....there are kids his age who actually have something intelligent and positive to say. We only encourage his kind of garbage by making excuses for it.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: tiggerdooley
Date: 25 Feb 01 - 02:17 PM

Of course he says things that we don't agree with, but it's still music, it's still a form of expression, and he still has the right to perform. Besides, he raps so fast that if the likes of us didn't go printing it out, the kids wouldn't have a chance to take it to heart!!! Just ignore him if you don't like him, he's having us all on.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 02:27 AM

What in hell is a 'folk torch'?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,SeanM, who's cookie keeps erasing itself
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 03:09 AM

A Folk Torch is just like a regular one, 'cept noone can stop arguing over whether or not it's a real torch, and the torch of that guy over there who died thirty years ago was a better example, and none of these new torches are anything like what they should be.

*g*

M


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 04:17 AM

I don't think I've ever heard a song by Eminem. It was interesting this morning to hear the priest mention Eminem's lyrics in his sermon. I could see the kids in church perk up and listen. The priest said there is harshness and violence in the lyrics, but there's a deeper message - a cry of anguish about the indignity and alienation people suffer. I guess I'd have to study the lyrics to see if I agree, and I don't know if I'd do that. However, I think there's a point. Art can seem vulgar and repulsive - but at the same time, it can be an attempt to express the anguish the artist is experiencing.

I think I prefer pretty songs. Hart, Gershwin, Mercer, and Cole Porter wrote lyrics more to my liking.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: tiggerdooley
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 08:38 AM

You can't beat Gershwin and Porter! But the priest was right about that anguish and alienation stuff. That Em dude does seem a little messed up, but then so were some of the greatest. Wonder what we'll think of Eminem in forty years time?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 08:41 AM

That's just it. We WON'T think of him. I mean, who REALLY remembers 2 Live Crew anymore?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Mooh
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 12:24 PM

Joe, I wonder if that "deeper message" is intentional. I doubt it, and therein lies the problem for me. Inciting violence without a cause is hateful and misguided. With a cause might be understandable even if I wouldn't personally agree with the tactic. Frankly, I think the guy gets too much credit for thinking and not enough blame for stupidity. IMHO.

Peace. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 12:26 PM

Looking for meaning in eminem songs strikes me as closely akin to sifting cowpies for diamonds. Her's the sieve - if you find a diamond let me know.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 01:08 PM

You do apparently, Matt.....God, I remember in High School everyone was singing that stupid Two Live song....at least the guys were....well, almost everyone.....


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: John Routledge
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 01:21 PM

EMINEM'S P.R people have done a brilliant job. This is post no. 100+. Cheers Geordie Broon


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 01:24 PM

Amen Matt R.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 04:38 PM

2 Live who?


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Matt_R
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 04:49 PM

My words exactly!


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 05:36 PM

Joe, I don't think Art is ever vulgar and repulsive, but some of his puns are pushing it. Speaking of which...
Leprechaun, I said I'd found that song (it's talking blues - isn't that rap?) instead of the one I was looking for. It's credited to Woody in the DT, but Art Thieme wrote it.


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Claire M
Date: 07 Oct 20 - 04:02 PM

I know this is v old -- but i loved Eminem. Rhythm And Poetry. Rhythm As Poetry. But that song ‘Stan’ terrified me. I can’t even hear the real song ‘Thank You’ w/o my mood changing, sadly for the worse. I *am* obsessive, like Stan. I get depressed, like Stan, & music helps.

I know Stan isn’t real, but that song still terrifies me. I couldn’t take the way out that he did. I physically can’t. I would if I could, but if I could I wouldn’t *want to*. Why would I want to make myself *that* miserable??             [_¯$_¯(_¯ ?° ?? ?°_¯)_¯$_¯]


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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 08 Oct 20 - 04:47 AM

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: tiggerdooley - PM
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 08:38 AM

...................
...................
...................
...... Wonder what we'll think of Eminem in forty years time?



We are almost half way there and he's still around, still receiving critical praise and still making lots of money.

DC


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