Depleted Uranium

Subject: Depleted Uranium
From: The Crazy Bird
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 04:28 AM

I had some fun on the way to work this morning making this up - if y' can make up better verses, you're welcome t' -- regrds, Crazy Bird

DEPLETED URANIUM
(tune: Old Time Religion, words: Chuck Cliff)

Give me depleted uranium,
Give me depleted uranium,
Give me depleted uranium,
-- it's good enough for me!

It was good for "Norm" and Powell
When we made old Saddam howl
It was good for "Norm" and Powell,
and it's good enough for me!

It was good in the Iraq desert,
Where killing tanks was a pleasure
It was good in the Iraq desert,
and it's good enough for me!

Who cares if it's a poison and
A carcinogen?
Who cares if it's a poison?
-- it's good enough for me!

It was good enough in Kosovo
When we beat up on Milosevic
It was good enough in Kosovo
and it's good enough for me!

Who cares if it's a waste
Produced by industry
Who cares if it's a waste?
-- it's good enough for me!
--------------
By the way, DU is a waste product in the pruduction
of fuel and weapons-grade enriched uranium.

Also, it is poisonous and it is a carcinogen

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: BlueJay
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 05:32 AM

We will go to Rocky Flats,
And put their shoulders to the mats,
We can watch the glowing bats,
But it's not good enough for me.

(To be fair, the only glowing bats in the area are likely the batts of insulation in the homes which spring up closer and closer to that radioactive wasteland as years pass. Probably the bats have either already died, or had the good sense to flee). Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: Lyr Add: DEPLETED URANIUM
From: The Crazy Bird
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 05:56 AM

Rocky Flats? Waste? I'll have to look it up, must be on a map somewhere (hmmn)

BTW, I saw the text didn't look like I wanted on the first posting.

Like my good friend says, "When all else fails, read the book, if that don't help -- follow the instructions...

DEPLETED URANIUM
(tune: Old Time Religion, words: Chuck Cliff)

Give me depleted uranium,
Give me depleted uranium,

Give me depleted uranium,
-- it's good enough for me!

It was good for "Norm" and Powell
When we made old Saddam howl
It was good for "Norm" and Powell,
and it's good enough for me!

It was good in the Iraq desert,
Where killing tanks was a pleasure
It was good in the Iraq desert,
and it's good enough for me!

Who cares if it's a poison and
A carcinogen?
Who cares if it's a poison?
-- it's good enough for me!

It was good enough in Kosovo
When we beat up on Milosevic
It was good enough in Kosovo
and it's good enough for me!

Who cares if it's a waste
Produced by industry
Who cares if it's a waste?
-- it's good enough for me!

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 09:26 AM

Excuse me but I understood depleted uranium to be about as radioactive as a watch dial -- its outstanding characteristic being its toughness, hence its use for armor-piercing. Does anyone have some actual numbers on the carcinogenic properties of it?

A

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Grab
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 09:53 AM

The main problem with DU, as I remember, is inhalation. There's no danger at all carrying DU around in your bare hands, and the radioactivity isn't an issue (it's actually less radioactive than the raw metal, since the highly radioactive isotope has been extracted). But inhaling the dust clogs up your lungs and causes cancer.

Thing is, the uranium burns on impact - that's what makes it so effective. So after an impact, you're not left with a porjectile like you are with a traditional lead bullet, you're left with this dust, which if breathed in in quantity is dangerous. How long it continues to be a hazard on the ground, and what happens to it when it's incorporated into the ground, no-one knows yet.

Grab.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 09:54 AM

In its solid form the levels of radioactivity are fairly low. As I understand it, and I may well be wrong, the problem arises mainly after detonation has taken place and the remains are dispersed as very fine particulate matter. This matter can be inhaled where these particles lodge in the lungs and lymphatic tissues where the carcinogenic and toxic effects are more problematical. Sorry Amos, don't have numbers to hand.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: rangeroger
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 04:37 PM

Sure wouldn't want those tankers to inhale that poisonous stuff after the round had detonated and blown up their tank.

Seems to me, war is dangerous to everyone involved.

rr

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 04:50 PM

I'd far rather they use depleted uranium bombs than landmines.

Bombs generally are used during war, and when the war's over, you stop using them.

Landmines blow little kids' legs off decades after the war is over.

Alex

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 05:10 PM

From a chemical physicist who has handled the stuff, be it known that Uranium is dangerous stuff, depleted or not. Berylium is another nasty element to handle. There are a lot of other nastys, but there's usually more publicity on them, so people are more aware of problems of handling them. [Silane and disilane explode on contact with air, concentrated H2O2 explodes on contact with many substances, cyanides are deadly, Hydrazine explodes easily if shocked, H2 and O2 gases, etc. High pressure oxygen let rapidly into a low pressure or vacuum system hits the walls of the chamber like a hammer, and can explode.]

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 05:39 PM

Rangeroger...the point is that the dust remains in the local environment of the detonation to potentially poison anyone involved in investigation or cleanup of the wreckage or who might be in the vicinity.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Troll
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 09:49 PM

The idea behind using DU as a shell casing is that it is tough and makes excellent shrapnel. The amount that becomes particulate matter fine enough to be inhaled should be very small.
If you DO inhale it or carry a piece around in your body or your pocket, you are probably in trouble.
But cancer does not normally spring up overnight and the many different types of cancer reported in supposed connection with the bombings in the Balkans suggest a variety of causes instead of one primary cause.
In short, it probably wasn't DU.

troll

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Grab
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 07:00 AM

Problem with cancer (and all diseases) is that it happens anyway, and clusters of cases do happen naturally. Suppose an area had below-average figures for a few years, then suddenly had lots in one year. Is there something causing them, or is it just a high-point in the average? And it's always easier to find someone or something to blame than it is to say that it's just seriously bad luck, so anything around which is slightly out of the ordinary could be picked on as a culprit. OTOH, there may be cases (eg. dioxin pollution) where there genuinely is a danger and it gets passed by. That's where epidemiologists earn their money.

Grab.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: The Crazy Bird
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 01:36 PM

Dear Hearts,

I have been reading your responses and yes, Virginia, DU is safe -- as long as it is stored away.

Some have aske for figures.

Well, here is what I have:

First: Uranium is not all that rare -- actually it is 50 times more common than silver (got that from the DOE web-site.

In the ore: Uranium is 1 to 0.1%.

When the uranium is extracted from the ore - it consists of three isotopes: U238 ( 99+%) U235 (.7%) and U234 (very little %).

To run nuclear reactors and make bombs, the U must be enriched -- that is, the % of U235 must be increased.

When that process is over, we are left with "depleted" uranium, which still contains between 0.2 and 0.4% U235.

That is to say it is between 40 and 60 % less radioactive than 'natural' U.

The decay of U235 (and 238) releases an alpha particle, that is a helium (2 proton + 2 neutron) kernel

The velocity is high, but it doesn't go far.

Therefore the greatest danger is when it is inside the body.

Inside the body, though the alpha radiation is damaging.

Other than that U is a poison, especially to the kidneys.

When a DU shell is fired, it burns, on impact it burns even more. Actually, between a quarter and half are turned into U oxide, in an aerosol (=fine) dust. Ir is soluable.

Sooooo, how about spreading 600,000 lbs. of radioactive was over Texarcana, TX over a period of a few days and see what they say in LA...

regards CrzyBrd

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: GUEST,Blind desert Pete
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 03:50 PM

DU is neither hard nor tough. It is used for the cores of AP rounds becouse of its density. It does not burn or explode. when it hits armor energy is released E=MV sq and a fair amount is vaporised just as with a lead cored bullet. Very bad to breathe either. I suspect that DU dust is the worse health risk but lead is no joke

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 06:03 PM

I was in the lab one day when a coworker dropped a vacuum bottle containing about 2 grams of uranium hydride. When bottle his the floor and broke and the air hit it, it literally exploded with a brilliant yellow/orange flash and a superfine whitish dust rained down. That made for a long cleanup job. I'm really amazed that I'm still alive after a few similar mishaps.

I was in an office of the Chem Dept. one night when I heard a terrific explosion, and went downstairs to find a grad student has opened one stopcock in the wrong order on his vac rack, and his silane hit a little air and exploded. There wasn't much left of his vac rack, and he had lots of glass imbedded in his face. He survived pretty well after a stay in the hospital, but though he was near the end, he never came back to finish his Ph. D.

Flourine chemists were always having explosions in their vac racs (which were Nickel, one of the few things that can survive flourine). But nickel would just burst and not send flying particles all over the place.

One of the last projects I was on was to run FTS spectra of hydrogen cyanide in a sample cell about 5 ft. long and 9 inches id at a pressure of about 5 atmospheres. That's enough HCN to kill thousands. I don't know how touchy pure H₂O₂ is. Twice I had one liter supply bottles. I'd heard a lot of horror stories, but I was always very careful with it, and never had an accident.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: ichMael
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 09:10 PM

The Iraq War Lie and Depleted Uranium

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Sawzaw
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 12:12 AM

Sounds like it's safer than the lead in Moon Shine.

Water can kill you too. Outlaw water.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: ichMael
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:02 PM

This isn't about outlawing or regulating. It's about inflicting genocide with weapons that give a new definition to the word "inhumanity."

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:27 PM

Sawzaw doesn't believe in clicking on a link.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 12:02 AM

Hell no, it might be toxic like contrails.

I was working in the lab late one night
When my eyes beheld an eerie sight
For my vacuum bottle from it's slab began to rise
And suddenly to my surprise


It did the flash
It did the yellow/orange flash
The monster flash
It was a graveyard smash
It did the yellow/orange flash
It caught on in a flash
It did the flash
It did the yellow/orange flash

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 08:45 AM

There are many conflicting scientific studies on the effects of DU on the human body. There is no scientific consensus that it causes any direct or transgenerational damage, or that is is entirely innocent of doing so. This lack of conclusive evidence is, IMHO, sufficient justification for not using such munitions if an alternative is available. For example, sabot rounds with a core of tungsten or gold will work just as well.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 12:28 PM

GUEST, Blind Desert Pete stated the facts as I understand 'em. Depleted Uranium is dangerous from its actions as a heavy metal, not from its very low radiation level (lower than natural uranium).

Guest, Bruce O offered total irrelevancy, which I find very irritating. It's bad enough in a converstion, but to sit down and type out something that has nothing whatever to do with the subject... dunno, it never turned my crank.

ichMael offers visual terrorism. Pure scare tactics and probably unrelated to the topic as well. There are tens of thousands of hideous birth defects across the world every year without having to drag radiation into it. How to tell if those barbarisms are real or photo-shopped. They appear to be there to instill horror and do nothing else. Classic disinformation.

artbrooks comment is on point and also of the real world.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: pdq
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 12:42 PM

"There are tens of thousands of hideous birth defects across the world every year without having to drag radiation into it."

Yes, the link above is pure propaganda.

Nothing new for Iraq, where Saddam (1991) order all babies that died from natural cause be saved and collected.

His operatives "salted" the sites of alleged allied bombings with said babies and had women get down on their knees and wail before the cameras of the Western news media.

One British reporter went up to one of the alleged bombing victims and found it was still frozen.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: ichMael
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 10:07 PM

Ah yes, the assuasive powers of rationalization. How sweet the denial--the claim that numbers don't add up and photoshop renders all evidence of the eyes suspect.

The problem with DU is the quantity of the stuff that's being scattered around the Middle East. A shell goes off and the cloud of dust disperses, and the uranium will be radioactive for...how many thousands of generations? And this isn't "background radiation present in nature." Depleted though it may be, tons of the stuff is being exploded in places like Fallujah. And those people eat, drink and breathe it day in and day out. Birth deformaties are on the rise in Fallujah since our recent attack on the city, by the way. Look it up. We're not just genociding a people, we're genociding their descendants forever.

Anyway, you folks have answered my question about what you're doing to stop the war. Now go back to sleep. How sweet the denial, the assuasive powers of rationalization.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 10:22 PM

You're talking to a ghost, robomatic. Maybe he can hear you and maybe not.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 11:17 PM

Depleted Uranium Training Video

Worth checking out in my opinion

This, too

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 12:06 AM

Those deformed babies evidently are real. It was on PBS last week, along with the information that they - someone- are/is advising people in Fallujah not to have children this year.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 01:04 AM

Cell Phones cause cancer of the brain!

Don't they?

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 01:07 AM

So far as I know, they have not isolated the deformity-causing elements in the vicinity of Fallujah. It may not even be DU.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 01:52 AM

HIV was invented by the government to kill off racial minorities.

Wasn't it?

"Check out US House Resolution 15090 page 193. The government got $10 million to develop a synthetic biological agent to deplete the immune system .

But there is a cure they don't want you to know about! Check uspto.gov (the US Patent and Trademark Organization website) and search for US patent number 5676977."

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 02:11 AM

I knew someone who died of a brain tumor. The tumor, before it got big enough to kill her, was the size and shape of a cell phone, and it grew inside her skull right where she used to hold her cell phone all the time. Coincidence? Maybe...

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: GUEST,Moon Shiner Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM

First of all, lets dispell this notion about lead in moonshine... Yeah, back in the old days there were folks who distilled the stuff in all kinds of plumbing devices... Them days is long gone, thankfully... Heck, I know of some purdy well educated folks in Washington, D.C. that make their own shine right there on Capitol Hill that make their own shine in safe distilling aparatuses... Times have changed... Yeah, okay, there may be some pockets of Little Abners who use their grand daddies stills but them folks is dieing out (of lead poisonin'...lol)...

As fir DU... If it's so safe then why don't they put it in pill form and sell it at the health food stores???

B~

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 08:42 AM

DU may have been used in Fallujah, but since the insurgents had no armour it was unnecessary to use it.
The insurgents used old soviet artillery shells for their explosive content.
The propellant in the shells would contain nitroguanadine to reduce flash and barrel wear.
It is known to be mutagenic.
If the propellant was present with the main charge or discarded widespread contamination is possible.
Who knows?

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 09:43 PM

The additional problem as I understand it is the fine dust particles get into the drinking water and food supply also ...

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 04:21 PM

Many of the diseases found in children in Iraq are attributed to DU.

Also, it contributes to the failing health of returning military people.

It's a dangerous chemical. Prove that handling DU doesn't affect your health negatively in a big way. (There's a lot of propaganda out there not based on science).

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 04:40 PM

Someone commented about outlawing water:

DEVELOPMENT: Bad Water More Deadly Than War

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=50710

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=50710

Well, that up there is somehow the link but I still do not understand the blue clicky. If you are interested, figure it out. The srticle is mind boggling.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: GUEST,Bobert on the road...
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 06:55 PM

All one has to do is trace the number of birth defects in Iraq after Gulf I to see that somethin' is there that is effecting the DNA...

B~

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 07:42 PM

Perhaps there is something to the theory that DU is responsible for some or all of this stuff. As of right now, there is no scientific proof one way or the other.

I process veterans claims for the DAV - believe me, it is impossible to do anything based upon speculation. The VA began approving compensation claims based on Agent Orange exposure before the Vietnam War ended, and added 3 new conditions last year. This is basically based upon statistics that show Vietnam vets have a small but measurably higher probability of coming down with these conditions, not that every case in every vet is "caused" by AO exposure. The US govt. has paid out many millions on this.

If there was any real probability that there was an actual basis for DU claims, they would do the same - the idea that they don't because of the cost or because of some nebulous "admission of guilt" is nonsense.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Stu
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 06:24 AM

"Landmines blow little kids' legs off decades after the war is over."

Yeah, much better to use a weapon that causes massive birth abnormalities and untold suffering for years after.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 06:28 AM

There was a VA doctor in Delaware who was treating Gulf I vets who was compiling data on the effects of DU and was fired for doing so... He was told that he was being laid off because he wasn't needed but then replaced by, not one, but two doctors!!!

I can't remember his name right off but if ya'll can find the other thread from a few years back on DU I posted all the info there...

Bobert on the road

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 12:42 PM

*Although the Pentagon has issued contradictory statements about the dangers posed by the 320 tons of DU fired in Iraq, it predicts that every future battlefield -- including in the former Yugoslavia, where DU is now being used by US forces -- will be contaminated with DU.

Radiation occurs almost everywhere, at low levels known as "background." DU, however, is a highly concentrated form, consisting of the "tailings" left over from the enrichment process that produces nuclear fuel and bombs. When protectively encased, DU's health risks are small. But when DU smashes at twice the speed of sound against metal, it burns and pulverizes, becomes toxic and releases radioactive dust that can soar in the heat column of a flaming tank and waft for miles in the desert wind.

As a heavy metal, DU's short-term risk is chemical toxicity. Although DU is only 60 percent as radioactive as natural uranium, its particles can become trapped in the body for long periods, which can result in severe health problems.

A visitor witnessed a radiation detector register about 35 times normal background radiation in some battlefield areas in southern Iraq. Old tanks "killed" with DU bullets showed radiation levels 50 times above background. "It's hot forever," says Doug Rokke, a former Pentagon DU expert. "It doesn't go away. It only disperses and blows around in the wind." The military's reluctance to acknowledge DU's dangers reminds Rokke of another war, in Vietnam: "[DU] is the Agent Orange of the 1990s," he says. "Absolutely."*

http://www.merip.org/mer/mer211/211_peterson.html


I guess this would explain why the US military use radiation detection equipment when they decontaminate equipment that has been contaminated by DU (according to the US military DU training video I posted earlier).

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 12:44 AM

"First of all, lets dispell this notion about lead in moonshine..."

Holstege Christopher P - Journal of toxicology. Clinical toxicology - 2004

....Lead was found in measurable quantities in 43 of 48 samples with values ranging from 5 to 599 parts per billion (ppb) with a mean value of 80.7 ppb. A total of 29 of 48 (60%) of samples contained lead concentrations above or equal to the EPA water guideline of 15 ppb.

CONCLUSIONS: Many moonshine samples contain detectable concentrations of lead. Extrapolations based on the described moonshine lead content suggest that chronic consumers of moonshine may develop elevated lead concentrations. Physicians should consider lead toxicity in the differential diagnosis when evaluating patients consuming moonshine.

Blue Ridge Poison Center, Division of Medical Toxicology, Department of Emergency Medicine, University of Virginia, P.O. Box 800699, Charlottesville, VA 22908-0699, USA.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 01:06 AM

What Chemtrails Really Are
    by CAROLYN WILLIAMS PALIT

What Chemtrails Really Are We are dealing with Star Wars. It involves the combination of chemtrails for creating an atmosphere that will support electromagnetic waves, ground-based, electromagnetic field oscillators called gyrotrons, and ionospheric heaters.

Particulates make directed energy weapons work better. It has to do with "steady state" and particle density for plasma beam propagation.

They spray barium powders and let it photo-ionize from the ultraviolet light of the sun. Then, they make an aluminum-plasma generated by "zapping" the metal cations that are in the spray with either electromagnetics from HAARP, the gyrotron system on the ground [Ground Wave Emergency Network], or space-based lasers.

The barium makes the aluminum-plasma more particulate dense. This means they can make a denser plasma than they normally could from just ionizing the atmosphere or the air.

More density [more particles] means that these particles which are colliding into each other will become more charged because there are more of them present to collide.

What are they ultimately trying to do up there -- is create charged-particle, plasma beam weapons.

Chemtrails are the medium - GWEN pulse radars, the various HAARPs, and space-based lasers are the method, or more simply:

Chemtrails are the medium. Directed energy is the method.

Spray and Zap.

This system appears to be in Russia, Canada, the United States, and all of Europe. Exotic weapons can be mobile, stationary, land-based, aerial, or satellite.

It is an offensive and defensive system against EM attacks and missiles. It uses ionospheric particle shells as defense mechanisms [like a bug-zapper shell]* against missiles and EM attacks. That means they spray and then pump up the spray with electromagnetics.

When these shells are created using the oscillating, electromagnetic, gyrotron stations, it "excludes" and displaces the background magnetic field. These shells can be layered one above another in a canopy fashion for extra protection from missiles.

The chemtrail sprays have various elements in them like carbon which can used to absorb microwaves. Some of these sprays have metal flakes in them that make aerial craft invisible to radar. Spoofer sprays. Sprays like these can be used to create colorful, magnetized plasmas to cloak fighter jets.

There are satellite weapons involved. Activists are using meters and are getting readings of microwaves, x-rays, and some other kind of emission that they are not sure of, maybe a low-intensity laser.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 04:05 AM

That's put me off moonshine!

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:12 PM

What is the advantage of drinking 'Shine?

Is it a few bucks cheaper because the taxes have not been paid?

Just some Macho excuse for breaking the law.

There are several choices of Moonshine available legally at the Liquor store.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 08:12 PM

"When these shells are created using the oscillating, electromagnetic, gyrotron stations, it "excludes" and displaces the background magnetic field. These shells can be layered one above another in a canopy fashion for extra protection from missiles."

Which of course also prevents the launching from Earth of rockets carrying Scientific Payloads. This proves that not only did Man not walk on the Moon, but that all that nonsense about 'Science experiments' up in Space is all just part of a plot to keep 'Scientists' busy.

Non Cognito, ergo Idiotium .... :-)

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 09:03 PM

What's the advantage of drinking moonshine??? It berter than anything you can buy at the ABC store... Other than that, probably nuthin'...

The 6 parts per billion of lead ain't jack... There more lead in, ahhhhh, mom's apple pie... But I ain't gonna give up that pie either...

But shine??? Darned good stuff... Darned good... Think I'll go get me a slug right now...

BTW, the fake moonshine in the ABC stores suck... That stuff ain't no more shine than koolaid is shine...

B~

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 09:14 PM

side note:
http://www.ttb.gov/public_info/whisky_rebellion.shtml


The Whiskey Rebellion
by Michael Hoover, Regulations & Rulings Division

The Distilled Spirits Tax of 1791

As part of the compromises that led to the adoption of the United States Constitution in 1789, the new Federal government agreed to assume the Revolutionary War debts of the 13 States. In early 1791, to help pay off the resulting national debt, Congress used its new constitutional authority to "lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises" and passed the first nationwide internal revenue tax—an excise tax on distilled spirits.[1] Congress took this action at the urging of the first Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton.

Unlike tariffs paid on goods imported into the United States, the excise tax on distilled spirits was a direct tax on Americans who produced whiskey and other alcohol spirits. The 1791 excise law set a varying six to 18-cent per gallon tax rate, with smaller distillers often paying more than twice per gallon what larger producers paid. All payments had to be made in cash to the Federal revenue officer appointed for the distiller's county.

Large, commercial distillers in the eastern United States generally accepted the new excise tax since they could pass its cost onto their cash-paying customers. However, most smaller producers west of the Appalachian and Allegheny Mountains, then the Nation's frontier, opposed the "whiskey tax."

Frustration on the Frontier

While eastern farmers could readily transport their grain to market, westerners faced the hard task of moving their crops great distances to the east over the mountains along poor dirt roads. Given this difficulty, many frontier farmers distilled their surplus grain into more easily transportable whiskey. In doing so, their grain became taxable distilled spirits under the 1791 excise law, and western farmers opposed what was, in effect, a tax on their main crop. Usually cash-poor, frontier residents also used whiskey to pay for the goods and services they needed. Naturally, many westerners quickly came to resent the new excise tax on their "currency."

Other aspects of the excise law also caused concern. The law required all stills to be registered, and those cited for failure to pay the tax had to appear in distant Federal, rather than local, courts. In Pennsylvania, for example, the only Federal courthouse was in Philadelphia, some 300 miles away from the small frontier settlement of Pittsburgh. In addition, many were upset by what they saw as the National government's inattention to continuing Indian attacks along the frontier and, with Spain's control of New Orleans, westerners were frustrated with the failure of the Government to open the Mississippi River to free American trade.

From the beginning, the Federal government had little success in collecting the whiskey tax along the frontier. While many small western distillers simply refused to pay the tax, others took a more violent stand against it. Federal revenue officers and local residents who assisted them bore the brunt of the protester's ire. Tax rebels tarred and feathered several whiskey tax collectors and threatened or beat many who offered them office space or housing. As a result, many western counties never had a resident Federal tax official.

President George Washington took notice of the resistance to the whiskey tax and issued a proclamation on September 15, 1792, condemning interference with the "operation of the laws of the United States for raising revenue upon spirits distilled within the same." [2]

The Whiskey Rebellion Begins

Despite the President's plea and Congressional modification of the excise law, [3] violent opposition to the whiskey tax continued to grow over the next two years. This was especially true in the four counties of southwestern Pennsylvania —Allegheny, Fayette, Washington, and Westmoreland—the location of up to one-fourth of the Nation's stills. In the summer of 1794, U.S. Marshal David Lennon arrived in the area to serve writs ordering those who had refused to pay the whiskey tax to appear in Federal court in Philadelphia. In Washington County, Federal revenue officer John Neville acted as Lennox 's guide. On July 15th, the two men served a writ on William Miller, but, after leaving the paper with the angry frontiersman, they were met by an armed group of his neighbors. A shot was heard as Lennox and Neville rode off, but neither man was injured.

Matters came to a head on July 16th when a group of angry farmers, including members of the extended Miller family, marched on Neville's house in the belief that Marshal Lennox was there. Confronted by these armed men, Neville shot and killed Oliver Miller. A shootout ensued, and Neville's slaves joined the fight by firing on the mob from their quarters. The protesters fled, but returned to Neville's house on July 17th with a force of 500 local militiamen. The tax collector, however, had slipped away earlier with the aid of a small squad of Federal soldiers from Fort Pitt who had come to guard his property. A shootout with the soldiers left rebel leader James McFarlane dead, but the greatly outnumbered Federals later surrendered. The rebels then burnt the Neville's house and barn to the ground. Several days later, David Bradford, deputy county attorney for Washington County, took command of the rebels in the county.

Anti-whiskey tax violence quickly spread to other counties along the frontier. Rebels burnt the home of Benjamin Wells, the Federal collector for Fayette County, and armed men stole the mail from a post rider leaving Pittsburgh.After finding letters from their opponents, the rebels returned to the town and beat the letter's authors. Anti-tax meetings were held throughout the region in late July. Despite appeals from anti-tax leaders such as newspaper publisher Hugh Henry Brackenridge and businessman and State legislator Albert Gallatin for a peaceful resolution of the crisis, calls went out for the local militia to gather at Braddock's Field near Pittsburgh.

President Washington Responds

After several thousand armed rebels gathered at Braddock's Field during the last week in July 1794, President Washington met on August 2nd with his Cabinet and the governor of Pennsylvania, Thomas Mifflin, to consider the situation. The President issued a proclamation on August 7th calling on the rebels" to disperse and retire peaceably to their respective abodes."[4] The proclamation also invoked the Militia Act of 1792, which, after Federal court approval, allowed the President to use State militiamen to put down internal rebellions and "cause the laws to be duly executed."[5] The same day, Secretary of War Henry Knox sent a letter to the governors of Maryland, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Virginia requesting a total of 12,950 militiamen to put down the rebellion.

In a last bid to avoid a confrontation, President Washington sent Attorney General William Bradford, Senator James Ross of Pennsylvania, and Pennsylvania Supreme Court justice Jasper Yeates to meet with rebel leaders. In late August and early September, the three Federal commissioners held talks with a 15-member committee appointed by a rebel assembly representing the four frontier counties of Pennsylvania and Ohio County in Virginia.The rebel committee included Hugh Henry Brackenridge, David Bradford, Albert Gallatin, and other prominent community leaders. Unable to find a peaceful solution to the spreading rebellion, the Federal commissioners returned to Philadelphia on September 24, 1794, where they reported that it was "absolutely necessary that the civil authority should be aided by a military force in order to secure a due execution of the laws."[6]

In the mean time, almost 13,000 militiamen had gathered at Carlisle, Penn-sylvania, and prepared to march west to end the rebellion. On September 19, 1794, George Washington became the only sitting U.S. President to personally lead troops in the field when he led the militia on a nearly month-long march west over the Allegheny Mountains to the town of Bedford.

On September 25th, the President issued a proclamation declaring that he would not allow "a small portion of the United States [to] dictate to the whole union," and called on all persons "not to abet, aid, or comfort the Insurgents." [7] After leading the troops to Bedford, Washington returned to Philadelphia in late October and placed General Henry "Lighthorse" Lee, a Revolutionary War hero and governor of Virginia, in command. Washington left a letter with Lee with instructions to combat those "who may be found in arms in opposition to the National will and authority" and "to aid and support the civil Magistrate in bringing offenders to justice." [8] Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton also remained with General Lee and the troops.

The End of the Whiskey Rebellion

In late October 1794, the Federalized militia entered the western counties of Pennsylvania and sought out the whiskey rebels. By mid-November, the militia had arrested 150 rebels, including 20 prominent leaders of the insurrection. Under the President's authority, General Lee issued a general pardon on November 29th for all those who taken part "in the wicked and unhappy tumults and disturbances lately existing" with the exception of 33 men named in the document. [9] While most of the militia returned home, a regiment occupied the area until the following spring, and organized opposition to the tax evaporated.

Of the whiskey rebels who were arrested, many were released due to a lack of evidence. Only a few men were tried and just two were convicted of treason. In July 1795, President Washington pardoned the two convicted men and those still in custody or under indictment. Several rebels sought for arrest fled the area, but most were later pardoned as well. President John Adams pardoned David Bradford, who escaped to Spanish-controlled New Orleans, in March 1799.

While violent opposition to the whiskey tax ended, political opposition to the tax continued. Opponents of internal taxes rallied around the candidacy of Thomas Jefferson and helped him defeat President John Adams in the election of 1800. By 1802, Congress repealed the distilled spirits excise tax and all other internal Federal taxes. Until the War of 1812, the Federal government would rely solely on import tariffs for revenue, which quickly grew with the Nation's expanding foreign trade.

The Whiskey Rebellion's Legacy

Most whiskey rebels returned to their previous lives and occupations, and some rose to prominence in their communities and the Nation. Hugh Henry Brackenridge, already a leading author and founder of the Pittsburgh Gazette, wrote a book on the uprising and would become a Pennsylvania Supreme Court justice.[10] William Findley, who urged peaceful protest of the whiskey tax, also wrote a book on the rebellion, and was elected repeatedly to Congress.[11]

Albert Gallatin, a leading Pennsylvania businessman, land developer, and State legislator long opposed internal Federal taxes. Given the opposition, his Fayette county neighbors elected him to the rebel assembly during the Whiskey Rebellion. While in the assembly, however, Gallatin spoke out against an open, violent break with the National government, and he also served on the 15-member committee that met with President Washington's three commissioners in an attempt to end to the crisis peacefully. Gallatin 's name appeared on a list of rebel leaders, but he was never arrested for his role in the Whiskey Rebellion.

Elected to Congress after the rebellion, Gallatin worked for a more exact accounting of the Federal government's finances, leading President Thomas Jefferson to appoint him Secretary of the Treasury, a post he also held under President James Madison. In 1802, Gallatin oversaw the ending of all direct, internal Federal taxes, including the distilled spirits tax. During the War of 1812, however, the rising costs of fighting Great Britain forced Gallatin to seek and win Congressional approval of new Federal excise taxes on carriages, sugar refining, and distilled spirits in 1813.

In 1814, Gallatin left the Department of the Treasury and helped negotiate the Treaty of Ghent, which ended the War of 1812. He later served as ambassador to France and to Great Britain.After retiring from Government service, he was president of the National City Bank of New York, and he helped found New York University.Gallatin later wrote that his participation in the Whiskey Rebellion was his "only political sin."[12]

In the end, the Whiskey Rebellion served as one of the first tests of the new Constitution and the Federal government's authority. It was also the greatest domestic crisis of President Washington's administration. The successful suppression of the Whiskey Rebellion helped to confirm the supremacy of Federal law in the early United States and the right of Congress to levy and collect taxes on a nation-wide basis.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 09:53 PM

I beg to differ Bobert. I have tried both and the legal stuff is better with no hangover.

You just get some egotistical macho kick out of breaking the law. Just a basic bad boy attitude that it is more fun if it's illegal. Yeah man I am above the law. Other people have to follow the law but not me, I am special cause I am so smart.

Plus you can weasel out of paying you fair share to support those hungry kids.

That #2 guy that you voted for said paying taxes is patriotic. That means you are unpatriotic according to him as well as a lawbreaker.

The #1 guy you voted for said smokin' dope and snorting coke is immoral so that makes you immoral according to him.

I admire him for admitting it, saying it was wrong and advising others not to use drugs. I like his honesty in that regard. I think he is right.

Everybody is right sometimes and wrong sometimes. You have to decide what is right and wrong.

Anybody that claims they are always right or claiming someone else is wrong all the time or even most of the time is an arrogant asshole in my opinion.

Of course they are as entitled to their opinions as I am.

Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 10:07 PM

My names John Lee Pettimore
Same as my daddy and his daddy before
Ya' never saw grand daddy round here
Only came a'town 'round twice a year
He'd buy hundred pounds yeast
and some copper line
everyone knew he made moonshine

Well, the Revenue man wanted grand daddy bad
headed up the holler with everything he had
It was before my time
But I been told
He never came back from Copperhead Road


Thanks, bb, for the Whiskey Rebellion link... Some good readin'... Not as good as good shine but good... BTW, they got somethin' they sell in the local ABC store called "Virginia Lightnin'"... I bought a bottle o' it thinkin' that it was gonna be good... It weren't... I poured it out... Like I said, good shine can't be beat by nuthin' in no package store... Any ol' hillbilly could tell ya' that... Heck, I'd love it if the ABC guys would just get up with some good ol' hillbilly moonhiners and put out some legalized moonshine... It's getting harder and harder to find good shine... The youngin' hillbillies just wanta grow and sell pot... What the Hell is this world comin' to, anyway, I asks????

B~