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American National Anthem

DigiTrad:
ANACREONTIC SONG (2)
THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER
TO ANACREON IN HEAVEN


Related threads:
US Natl Anthem: Other lyrics to tune? (39)
The Anacreontic Song (10)
Lyr Add: Star Spangled Banner (25)
Lyr Req: Star Spangle(d) Heaven (2)
(origins) Origins: Star Spangled Banner - Folk/Sea Shanty? (13)
US Nat'l Anthem in Spanish? (71)
eo:Pretty Little Horses / Star-Spangled -esperanto (6)
BS: Did They Change the National Anthem? (55)
BS: Between You and the National Anthem (2)


Fiolar 03 Mar 01 - 06:46 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 03 Mar 01 - 07:04 AM
mkebenn 03 Mar 01 - 07:17 AM
TamthebamfraeScotland 03 Mar 01 - 07:35 AM
Jon Freeman 03 Mar 01 - 07:40 AM
Jon Freeman 03 Mar 01 - 07:43 AM
Amos 03 Mar 01 - 09:07 AM
Snuffy 03 Mar 01 - 09:14 AM
Jeri 03 Mar 01 - 09:37 AM
Fiolar 03 Mar 01 - 09:44 AM
The Crazy Bird 03 Mar 01 - 11:03 AM
Amergin 03 Mar 01 - 11:26 AM
Amergin 03 Mar 01 - 11:52 AM
Lepus Rex 03 Mar 01 - 12:33 PM
Amergin 03 Mar 01 - 12:55 PM
InOBU 03 Mar 01 - 01:41 PM
Joe Offer 03 Mar 01 - 03:19 PM
Irish sergeant 03 Mar 01 - 04:28 PM
Allan C. 03 Mar 01 - 04:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Mar 01 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 03 Mar 01 - 05:42 PM
Lonesome EJ 03 Mar 01 - 08:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Mar 01 - 08:40 PM
guest(intruder-inactive) 03 Mar 01 - 08:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Mar 01 - 09:10 PM
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jofield 03 Mar 01 - 10:31 PM
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Spud Murphy 07 Mar 01 - 12:36 AM
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Amos 07 Mar 01 - 11:47 PM
GUEST,Sarah at work 08 Mar 01 - 07:57 AM
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Subject: American National Anthem
From: Fiolar
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 06:46 AM

Today March 3rd 2001 is the 70th anniversary of the designation of the poem "The Star Spangled Banner" written by Francis Scott Key on 14th September 1814 as being the American National Anthem by Act of Congress. Originally entitled "The Defence of Fort McHenry" it was set to a tune written by the English composer John Stafford Smith. Avid movie fans will recall Key was played by Donald Woods in the 1936 production "The Song of a Nation." Don't you just love history?


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 07:04 AM

This thread gives the full words to "Anacreon in Heaven" which were the original words sung to this tune. Thanks for the history, Fiolar! (Now, if we could only get the national anthem changed to something singable, like "America the Beautiful"!)


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mkebenn
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 07:17 AM

Always loved "My Country 'tis of Thee", but there was that problem with the tune..LOL. Mike


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 07:35 AM

The American national anthem I think is really terrible, because how can you sing 'LAND OF THE FREE AND HOME OF THE BRAVE' when America slaughtered and enslaved so many people. As some once said America went from being barbaric to being decadent without being a civilized nation. And then you go and tell other governments who to run their countries, when you lot had slavery, and you still in some parts of the ones who want to bring back slavery to your country. And also in the first world war you were 3 years late and in the second world war you were 2 years late, and yet when you went to war on your own you lost. So much for the 'LAND OF THE FREE AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE'.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 07:40 AM

I've just been reading and playing the MIDI at http://www.contemplator.com/america/ssbanner.html. I hate that site - I always end up staying longer and looking at other things when I get there!

Jon


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 07:43 AM

Annimeterra, how about America should do something with The Battle Cry Of Freedom. That is a great singable tune.

Jon


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 09:07 AM

Busbitter:

Lands don't kill people -- people kill people. I have no drum to beat for America's offenses against humanity, but I suggest you should weigh both the accomplishments and contributions the nation can claim, against its offenses. The Crusades, Inquisition, and invasions of Tartars, to name a few quick examples, were surely as bad. And lacked some of our saving graces. Are you offering constructive suggestions? We're all for 'em.

A


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 09:14 AM

Constructive criticism? from a Scot?

Don't worry, Amos, he's just having a little light-hearted practice to get warmed up for another go at us Sassenachs!


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 09:37 AM

Well, it's a trait of humans to be nasty to other humans. Governments concentrate the nastiness and make it more powerful. Find a government that hasn't done something bad or downright evil, and then let me use your time machine to bugger off into the future to have a look.

For me, patriotism is loyalty to an ideal. It's about working to make that ideal a reality, or as much of one as possible. It's about looking at all the warts of the past and present to see what to be on guard against, but not to point fingers at people for things they had no control over.

Let the person who's history doesn't include a bit of atrocity throw the first stone, and let those more concerned about what's happening now work to make the world a better place.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Fiolar
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 09:44 AM

I think we should look at the Crusades in the thinking of the times that they occurred. The idea behind them was to free the Holy Land from the grip of what was regarded as "the infidel." The fact that later participants behaved no better than gangsters should not for example denigrate shall we say The Childrens' Crusade. Conquest and the acquisition of land was the role for many so called civilised people, no matter what side of the religious divide they came from and later crusaders were not always in the game for the good of their souls.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: The Crazy Bird
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 11:03 AM

My comment is a snippet from a poem/rant in progress.

I am an American,
        and proud of it!
At the same time,
        I am filled with deep shame...

My ancestors?

Some came over on the Mayflower,
        others huddled together on the bottom of not so famous boats.
One was a draft dodger during the civil war,
        another helped hang a man in the wild west a few years before
One owned half of what now is Chicago,
        most of them have been working class poor.

I am an American,
        and proud of it!

When I see our Flag defiled,
        burnt or spat upon,
as is it is with all of us,
                I feel great pain...

And yet, sometimes,
        I am filled with deep shame...
learning of things
        done in our country's name...

In other words, the home-of-the-brave-land-of-the-free bit, is, at worst, a dream, at best, something to be confirmed in each generation...

rgrds CrzyBrd


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Amergin
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 11:26 AM

BusBitter, where are you from? I for one do not think proudly of our nation's history of slavery and such, but I am damn sure I can point out some of the flaws in your own country. The US did not invent slavery. That was an idea thousands of years old when the Greeks first thought of it.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Amergin
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 11:52 AM

Oh and Busbiter, in World War 1, we should not have gotten involved with that family squabble at all. The only reason we did was because the Bossmen wanted in. In WW2, our government wanted an incident to happen to justify our presence in that war. So they permitted Pearl Harbour.

Besides there have been many many very courageous souls on this side of the pond, just as in any other country. The ones that history can name are but a few: Mother Jones, Harriet Tubman, Frank Little, and Pete Seeger are just a few names....So that part is right.

Now about the free....I figure we are freer than some parts of the world and yes there are many cases in which we can gain more and those details have been in the process of being ironed out since the day Jefferson and friends signed the Declaration of Independance.

I suggest though that before you just go ahead and piss on somebody else's country, you should piss on your own.

Have a nice day.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 12:33 PM

"Without us, you'd all be speaking German!" ---Otto, "A Fish Called Wanda"

Busbitter's from Scotland, home to black people with British surnames... How'd they get those again? ;)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Amergin
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 12:55 PM

Oh ok...maybe Busbiter is just off today because his pint costs a penny more than it used to....


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 01:41 PM

Well, as long as we are voting for a new national anthem... How bout the International?
Need I say... you all know it is from, Yours - very red and truly,
Larry
PS Maybe a highbrid between the origional and the Billy Bragg version - I am not as found of the Unites the world in song, line, I prefer, the International Working Class, shall be the human race. Has a sort of nice ring to it. No passaran! Salude!


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 03:19 PM

I've always thought America the Beautiful would be a better choice for a national anthem, although I suppose I have to admit that "Star-Spangled Banner" works pretty well for sporting events and military things, if those things are one's preference (they ain't mine).

There certainly is great natural beauty in the U.S. - I don't think the staunchest anti-American would argue against that. And I suppose it's also true that Americans have done much to spoil the beauty of their country and deplete its resources. There is also an idealism in the national spirit that is quite remarkable. I'm afraid that idealism can lead to an arrogance that makes us very inept at international relations.

We Americans have many things to be proud of, and many things to be ashamed of. We're an interesting mix of good and bad, just like every other country. If you want to blast Americans, you've come to the wrong place. Most American Mudcatters have a rather realistic view of their country, and are quite aware of both the good and the bad aspects of the U.S.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 04:28 PM

Busbitter; The last part of your "handle" is telling. I'm of Scottish ancestry on my father's side and Irish on my mothers but that is neither here nor there I state that only so you'll know I'm no raving anti-brit or scot or what ever. Since we're on the subject of American foibles You make a valid case that we as a nation have done some terrible things. No American will deny that but let's look at the record of some of the things that were done by various other groups

-The Glencoe massacre. Ask the MacDonald clan who was responsible for that little social event.

-You state that we (America) was three years late entering WW1 and two years late entering WW2. No argument. World War one was a result of European posturing. America was drawn in by several factors. The European portion of World war Two was due to failure by the European victors to make a just peace with Germany, failure to stop Hitler when he went into the Saarland( Had France and the United Kingdom stood firm then, Hitler would have had to back down and his credibility ruined.) Ask Czechoslovakia who they feel is responsible for World War Two. Can we say Munich? Also, you state we were two years late joining Britain in fighting Hitler. I suggest you read up on your naval history and see how many American sailors died to ship provisions to the U.K. in official violation of the Neutrality Act to provide weaponry and food stuffs to the U.K. I might also mention the LaFayette Escadrille in World War One, The RAF Eagle Squadrons and the men who joined were not named such as George Harsh who soldiered behind the wire in Stalag Luft III after being shot down in His Majesty's service.

- No-one in this country (America) will deny we lost Vietnam. It was the wrong war, it should have never been fought. Even Douglas MacArthur agreed on that score.

-I'd be really interested on your opinion about the Falklands War. The Royal Navy used American ports to resupply.

I don't come to Mudcat to get ugly with people although apparently, you do. We sing the land of the free and the home of the brave because it is true. And yes, we don't always get it right. But read up on the Statuates of Killkenny or what the victor (Great Britain) imposed on Scotland after Culloden. Bravery doesn't always come from nobility and America doesn't own exclusive title to heinous acts. Remember it was Scottish nobles that sold William Wallace out to Edward Longshanks. The old adage from the Bible still holds true. Judge not lest you be judged.

Please do not take this as a personal attack on yourself. I don't know you. The fact is that you are probably a nice person. I felt I had to respond to you scurrilous and ignorant comments about my country. I will be more than glad to offer a hand of friendship to you and anyone else provided that they have an open mind. Kindest reguards and apologies for my rant, Neil


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Subject: ADD: Don't Put It Down (from Hair)
From: Allan C.
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 04:45 PM

I would have to vote for something more along the lines of this.
    Text below added by Joe Offer
http://web.archive.org/web/20010424223130/http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/1080/b-dont-put-it-down.html
  
DON'T PUT IT DOWN (from Hair

Om mane padme om
Om mane padme om....

Folding the flag means taking care of the nation. Folding the flag is putting it to bed for the night. I fell through a hole in the flag.
I'm falling through a hole in the flag! HELP!!

Eb F7 Bb
Don't put it down, best one around.

F Eb Dm Gm
Crazy for the red, blue and white.

Cm F7 Bb Eb
Crazy for the red, blue and white.

F7 Bb
You look at me, what do you see?

F Eb Dm Gm
Crazy for the white, red and blue.

Cm F7 Bb Eb
Crazy for the white, red and blue.

F7 Bb
'Cause I look different you think I'm subversive.

F Eb Dm Gm
Crazy for the blue, white and red.

Cm F7 Bb Eb
Crazy for the blue, white and red.

F7 Bb
My heart beats true for the red, white and blue.

F Eb Dm Gm
Crazy for the blue, white and red.

Cm F7 Bb Eb Bb Bdim
Crazy for the blue, white and red and yellow fringe.

F Eb Bb
Crazy for the blue, white, red and yellow.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 05:02 PM

"Land of the free and home of the brave" - surely that refers to native Americans, and represents an aspiration for what, in 1814, America still could have become?


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 05:42 PM

The history of the tune is far from clear. I would reccommend you read Oscar Sonneck's 'The Star Spangled Banner', Library of Congress, 1914. (A facsimile of Key's autograph of the song is included).
I found a copy a few years ago in a used book store. If you can't find it, you might enquire at the Sonneck Society's website.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 08:18 PM

"Land of the Free and Home of the Brave" refers primarily to the people who came here fleeing religious, political, and economic persecution from places like Ireland, England, Poland, Russia, Sweden and Italy, (or in my family's case the Highland Clearances) who were brave enough to leave their homes and families and finally realized the meaning of freedom and opportunity in this country. It is also a tribute to the concept of democracy and political equality unknown in the world at the time of this country's establishment, but one which quickly took hold throughout Europe. It is not a statement of perfection, or even the aspiration to perfection. It is not an excuse for our wrongs. And it is sure as hell no reason for an apology.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 08:40 PM

The USA of 1814 is a small country in a war with a great power that has recently occupied and largely demolished its capital city, stuck on the edge of a continent that hasn't been incorporated into a new Empire, where the first American nations were still mostly free. The America of this song is an underdog nation, struggling gamely to survive.

That's what is attractive about the song. Now it gets seen through the distorting lense of a history which has turned that vulnerable little country into an imperial superpower, with the propensity for swaggering arrogance that all imperial superpowers from Rome on tend to adopt. Sung in the right spirit it doesn't have to be an expression of that arrogance, but a reminder of what could have been, and maybe still could be.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: guest(intruder-inactive)
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 08:55 PM

hey!

i'm an american, a veteran and i know we slaughtered the moros in their thousands...

but, yanno, i'm fed up with being the designated creator of all that's unholy

i.e. a white european-descended male

shall we take a minute to discuss mongolian warcraft?
chinese foot binding
clitdorectomies in mother africa?

white european-descended males invented something no one ever thought of...
a system where you can make changes WITHOUT wholesale slaughter
so ::stands up and starts singing::
god bless america, land that i love
stand beside her and guide her, through the night with the light from above
from the mountains, to the prairies, to the oceans, white with foam
god bless america
my home sweet home

america, love it and make it better!!!


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 09:10 PM

Picking out one country or another as big baddy is a waste of energy, because everyone takes turns at it, one way and another. But the idea of democracy goes back a long way, in many parts of the world. Not that it has ever reliably prevented wholesale slaughter, any more than it did in America.

"the moros" ?


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 09:23 PM

Well, actually, intruder there's a lot more to it than the triumph of white-european descended males. America is the greatest collection of polyglot races and nationalities since the beginning of time. In many ways that has been the greatest hurdle to overcome, but ultimately it has been our greatest strength.

AS for creating a system where changes are wrought through compromise and logic rather than brute force, many aboriginal peoples were able to achieve peaceful co-operation through understanding. And Europe has proven again and again that it is more than willing to entertain wholesale slaughter of its people in order for one State or another to seek supremacy. Our country was drawn into at least two of those wars.

I would take strong issue with McGrath's comparison to Rome and other swaggering imperial powers. Never have we sought annexation of our allies, nor even of our enemies. We have often acted in self-interest, but most often with the support and aid of countries like Great Britain, France, Australia and Japan who share our belief in the republican form of government and, yes, our economic system. Our greatest transgressions occurred during the Cold War, when we supported fascist strong-men in third world countries throughout the world. The United States in the 90s and in the new millenium seems destined (cursed?) to be the World's arbiter and police force in such areas as Bosnia/Herzogovia, where the options seemed to be 1)Stand and watch genocide take place or 2)Act against the repressors and for the repressed, according to our best understanding of the situation.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: jofield
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 10:31 PM

OK, back to the subject at hand: "America the Beautiful" would certainly be a much better choice for a national anthem, but the right-wingers, without whose approval nothing will be changed, are probably suspicious of that word "brotherhood" -- smacks of what I would call civil rights and they would call Federal intervention in their right to discriminate as they please. (After all, if we have "brotherhood" in the national song, what's next? Voting in one's own economic self-interest? Eeew...bad for Republicans. It's so much easier to corral white southern votes when you have that good ol' subtext of race.) So "America the Beautiful" will have to wait a long time. Meanwhile we have "The SSB", which ain't a half-bad tune, when it's performed right, which it seldom is. The tune was originally a drinking song, and should be sung at the flowing rhythm of swinging grog mugs, but it never is. At all American mega-events, it is used as a "never-mind- this-dumb-song, look-at-ME-ME-ME!" vehicle (i.e., the Mariah Carey school of voice).
Matt Groenig and the Simpsons gang had the final word when they showed some brainless singer starting the Anthem at a big sporting event; cut to a clock, dissolve to the end of the song, 7 minutes have passed, and the singer is still vamping on the last three words. How true. How awful.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 04:10 AM

Thank you Neil and Everybody who says that I get natsy on Mud cat. I'm sorry for some of the things I said about America, not all of them. I don't mean to get natsy on the mud cat, but are we not allowed to voice our opinions.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 04:18 AM

Thank you Neil for putting me in my place, I'M SORRY for all that I said about America and you lot of Americans who are love your country and who don't like people like me who tell some home truths, as they say the truth hurts, and some people like to turn a blind to it all. However like myself, we all need a kick up the arse now and again to remind ourselves what our own history of our own country was like. I hope this all makes sense to you all. After all that I've started on mud cat I will not sending anymore messages on this thread, but I'll just check up on it from time to time. Tom Hamilton


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mkebenn
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 07:45 AM

Nice for the most part, Lonesome, but as to that "annex our enemies" part, the Seneca and Onieda here in western New York, the Cherokee to the south, and the many Great Plains Tribes to the west may have a different viewpoint. Mike


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 06:53 PM

I know that I said that I wouldn't be sending any more messages on this subject, however when you sing the part of The land of the brave and the land of the free. What about the McCarthy era in the 1950's or the civil right movement in the 1960's.

Any way that's just me and if you don't like what I've said about America I'm SORRY.

Tom Hamilton


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 07:23 PM

"Never have we sought annexation of our allies, nor even of our enemies."

Then how come the United States stretches across a whole annexed continent? The fact that the occupied teritory was contiguous rather than scattered around the place shouldn't disguise the fact that the United States is essentially an Empire. After all, the same could be said of most Empires - Roman, Chinese, Russian, Austrian...


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 08:42 PM

Never have we sought annexation of our allies, nor even of our enemies.

Um...there was this little thing called the Annexation of Texas & California & the Mexican War. Then there were several invasions of Nicaragua. I seem to recall something about a Spanish American War invlving Cuba & the Phillipines.....& etc & etc & etc.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 09:40 PM

ASIDE...

Er, sorry, Greg, but you'll have to leave Texas out of that equation. Texas was an independent Republic at the time of its annexation to the United States, and sought statehood on its own. (Nor would it be correct or fair to use the names of Houston, Travis, Crockett and the like as being the movers and shakers behind Texas' war for independence from Mexico. Most of the men who died defending the Alamo had surnames of Fuentes, Gierro, Barziza, etc.)

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 09:52 PM

Busbiter, it's not what you've said about America. It's what you've said about Americans - every last one of us. You have to be completely clueless or looking for a flame war to lump every one of us together to blame us for things beyond our control. If you want to hang onto your prejudices in order to feel superior, fine. Just don't expect us targets to quietly put up with them.

You started this with flame bait, and a flame war is exactly what you expected to get. I don't believe you're so ignorant as to believe you wouldn't hurt some people who might have thought you were a friend.

This is nothing more than the "I'm better than you are" game, and if anyone wants to play it yet another time, go ahead. Realize though, that no one's going to win.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 10:21 PM

You know, it's not the comments against America that bother me - it's lumping everybody together and claiming they're all the same, and that they're all evil. It's the basis of every kind of racism and nationalism and jingoism and all those other "isms." If you want to class all Russians together or all Africans or all Europeans or all Jews or all Catholics together and then demonize them, I'd be every bit as offended.

I am not Bill Clinton. I am not George W. Bush. I am Joe Offer, and I'm a pretty nice guy - even if happen to be an American. Oh, and I happen to be a pacifist and a democratic socialist. Does that fit your American stereotype?

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 10:37 PM

Wasn't Texas a Mexican province settled by colonizing Americans under concessions granted by the Mexican government? It was after the Mexican Congress in 1830 passed a law prohibiting slavery and the further settlement by American citzens that the American colonists denied the authority of the Mexican government and decided to secede and establish this 'independent republic'. Texas may not have been initially annexed by the American government, but it most cetainly was, at the point of a gun, by Americans

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 10:59 PM

Sorry, Greg, but, as I mentioned above, most of the people who sought independence from Mexico in Texas did so for economic reasons, and they were of Mexican descent, the large landowners. The "American Colonization" myth was mostly propaganda from Mexico. (By the way, Mexicans consider themselves Americans, as do citizens of South America...If you're ever carrying on a discussion with one of them, suggest you not refer to the U.S. as America.) Sure, some Anglos had settled here, but they were hardly in a position to start a war without the wholehearted support of the Spanish speaking majority. Texas became a Republic for a number of reasons, but some devious U.S. expansion plan out of Washington wasn't one of them. Texas was a Republic for only nine years, it's true, but that's because she jumped at the chance to be a state, not because she was dependent on the U.S. Texians just knew a good thing when they saw it...

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 11:41 PM

Gee, Joe: As a fellow red, see what all we'd avoid if we adopted the International for an anthem? It could be like Bush being forgiven his past by going on the waggon and finding God! ;-)
Well, fellow travellers...
All the best,
Larry


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 11:47 PM

And it was Leo Kottke's brother, Francis, who wrote the Star Spangled Banner.

Art


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 11:56 PM

........ohmygawd........................Art, I'm speechless!!!!!!! Not only is that one TOP NOTCH, but I don'r recall you using it before!! A "DOUBLE WHAMMY" so to speak..........BRAVO~~~BRAVO~~~~~

Spaw


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:22 AM

Art, I don't know how you do it....

I laughed so loud, I think I scared the neighbors.

-Joe Offer, in awe-


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 01:58 AM

My major argument with out national anthem is the difficult, awkward melody. Put me in the America The Beautiful camp - beautiful melody, beautiful, poetic lyrics. As for the anti-American flame, without repeating much that's been said, or going into a detailed rebuttal of my own, my message to ur critic here is that one of the strengths of my country's democracy is that it is always evolving and self-correcting. It's more than a set of rules with underlying values, it's a process and a way of life, and a mechanism by which change can be made. For every injustice, there's an ACLU case, for every national policy, a non-governmental organization working to become majority opinion and effect change. This is not just a record of lone voices in the woods. What was once minority opinion has often become majority, and I believe this country has, all in all, been in many cases a force for good, and not by any means all evil. Of course there have been, are, and will be injustices perpetrated by individuals, groups, and at the local, state, and national levels. But again, this country has a powerful process of self-correction, and a process by which competing ideas and values can be worked out, whether in the courts, the legislatuive bodies, or in the streets. It, of course, cannot be taken for granted, and, as any civil liberties activist will tell you, takes constant vigilance.

-chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 07:02 AM

Difficult awkward melody? I wouldn't think it's any more so than the Marseillaise, the Soldiers Song, the Internationale, any decent anthem... You've got a good tune, with words that are in fact anti-imperialist. I gather it gets wrecked by incompetent show-offs hired at public events in America, presumably because they don't want the crowd to sing the words. But those bastards would wreck anything, as,long as you let them get away with it.

If I were American, that's the kind of thing that would annoy me, not people making comments about aspects of my country's history and present state. There sometimes seems to be an awful lot of insecurity and heightened sensitivity around. It might make sense in some small fragile nation that's been ground down by oppression and poverty, but it really seems strange in citizens of what is at this point the most powerful human collective the world has ever known.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 07:52 AM

McGrath, I don't know what the big, powerful nation feels. I, as an individual, don't much like it when anyone says "you all." I don't think it's right in any context. Once more time: it's not the comments about my country that annoy me. It's the stereotyping as an excuse to bash. It's a verbal form of beating, instead of a discussion, and I would have hoped that folks here would be more interested in discussing. Given half a chance, we Americans can write a full report of everything our nation has done wrong. It starts with ancestors coming here from places where "you all" was a good enough excuse to start a war or demolish a race. It reflects the way the world worked, not some isolated pocket of tyranny. Does anyone who is a citizen of somewhere other than the US believe if their ancestors had emmigrated here, they would have done things differently? Could they have altered things if they'd wanted to? How do you know our individual ancestors didn't try?

On the anthem - it's hard to sing, and I'm not crazy about the words being an ode to a symbol surviving a battle. I like the ideas behind America the Beautiful better - the people and the land, not the flag managing to last through a battle. It's also a lot more singable. Of course, we wouldn't be able to make bets at sporting events as to whether the singer will manage to hit the high parts...

Art...ugh. UGH, UGH, UGH! (applause.)


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 10:51 AM

Very well put Jeri. Your argument on the song is persuasive too........but I can't make "Play Ball" fit as the actual last two words of "A the B" as well as I can with the Bananer. Maybe its just I haven't tried it enough............

Spaw


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: GUEST,Carol's Friend Don
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 11:49 AM

As for anthems at sporting events, why don't we do something that reflects history, and have the American National Anthem sung by the winners, and the International sung by the losers...

NOTE to McGrath of Harlow: guest(intruder)'s comment about "moros" was, in his own e. e. cummings style, a reference to the Philippine Insurrection in the early 1900's in which the American Army was bailed out yet again by the Marine Corps. It was an epecially bloody affair with the Corps adopting the .45 automatic pistol to stop the charging (and doped-up) mystic/moslem warriors. The Corps also adopted the Sidler bayonet fighting tactics, which are still different than the Army's and are better suited to close-in fighting. On Marine Corps Mess Nights, the phrase "Stand, he served at Samar" was invoked to the assembledge for any Marine who fought in that conflict. (Samar is an island in the Phillipines).


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:23 PM

"Never have we sought annexation of our allies, nor even of our enemies."

Then how come the United States stretches across a whole annexed continent? The fact that the occupied teritory was contiguous rather than scattered around the place shouldn't disguise the fact that the United States is essentially an Empire. After all, the same could be said of most Empires - Roman, Chinese, Russian, Austrian...

By this logic, Canada, Brazil and Australia are also Empires, since the territory of their countries consists of land annexed from indigenous peoples.

Fact is, the annexation of North American land in the 18th and 19th Centuries represented competition between the newly-created United States and the colonial powers such as England, France, Spain and Russia who all held land in what is now the US. Whether or not these powers had legitimate claims to the territory held is another question entirely.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:29 PM

I always love it when people from Europe start USA-bashing. Um, who do you think white U.S.Americans ARE, you noodle-heads? They're children of YOUR great-grandparents, who came here because they wanted to get away from you jerks who stayed behind (whether out of cowardice or because you were the ones in control and making life miserable for them, or some other reason).

The US&A has its problems, and has had them. But let's look at our so-called "empire." Of all the wars we've fought in the last 100 years, how many have been wars of expansion? Phillipines -- independent. Cuba -- independent. Mexico -- independent. Germany and all of western Europe -- independent. Japan -- independent. This is hardly imperialist expansion.

I'll be the first to admit what we did to the aboriginal North Americans ("Indians" and "Eskimos") was abhorrent, and we owe them a hell of a lot in repayment for it. (Don't tell my Republican friends; they think there's nothing to do with the budget surplus but give it to the rich.)

However, leaving that aside (for the moment), our relations (as a nation) with other peoples have NOT been expansionistic. (Admittedly some major corporations have done horrid things in the middle Americas to keep the cash flow going, and I abhor what the government has done to back them!)

In short, we Americans know we have problems, and get mighty pissed off when people from some third-world nation like Scotland start telling us we're the Evil Empire incarnate.

We sing "the land of the free and the home of the brave" because that's what we ASPIRE to be. Maybe we aren't there yet. But we want to be, and will keep working on it (current resident of oval office notwithstanding).

Alex.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:30 PM

Oh. Sorry. I said Scotland was a nation. It's not. My apologies.

Alex


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: The Dane
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:43 PM

As I see it, America is the combination of the best and the worst. I used to hate the place years back - thought Americans were all stupid, ignorant hillbillies. Then I met some... they turnes out to be the greatest people on earth... met some other Americans - total ass holes...

But anyway, I wen't to the States - although I promissed myself I would never go – and this is what i found: It's a place of opportunity and wealth - for some people anyway - and a place of poverty...both literaly and intelectually. And I could go on and on... But what I mean is: Don't slag off the States and don't make it look like paradise on earth. It's neither of those. As is the case for most places, the truth about America is more complex than that!

Jacob


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:54 PM

Well, Sarah, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this 'un. You must have studied a different version of history than I did- you wouldn't be a Texan by any chance, would you?  :-)  Think its safe to say that slavery was an "economic reason"-no? What's styled "propaganda" often depends on which side of the issue you find yourself .As an example, the "Phillipine Insurection" mentioned above was an effort by the Filipinos to repulse American invasion and colonization of the islands.

And please climb down from the the patronizing "Norte-Americanos" bit. I'm on your side, and that battle has already been fought several times in this forum.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 01:05 PM

Tom: Please do not think that I was implying you don't have the right to your opinion. Nothing could be further from the truth. Thank you for your apology. I'll be the first to admit that my country has it share of problems. I wanted a level playing field. This discussion is about a song. It happens to be our national anthem and it speaks to what every citizen of the United States (Nortes to our Hispanic citizens of the Western Hemisphere)hopes this country will be. We are a young country as nations go, so if we seem like brash upstarts, maybe we are. But there is also a generosity in my people that cannot be denied. -The American people spent their tax dollars to help rebuild Europe and Asia after the second world war. Not just to benefit our allies but our former foes as well. -When the puppet governments of Romainia, Croatia etc. declared war on the U.S. in that conflict, the U.S. ignored them. -American dollars and volunteers can be found helping out at most if not all natural disasters that occur. -We still remain a haven albeit an imperfect one for refugees from throughout the world. Our borders are the easiest in the world to access of any. By the way, Scotland is considered a nation. The Scots have their own parliament and judicial system even if they don't have a seat in the United Nations. To explain my position, Tom, I took offense at the remarks about the land of the brave. I have lost friends in Vietnam, Greneda, Lebenon and the Persian Gulf. I have had relatives fight in World War s One and two, Korea, Vietnam, during the Cuban Missle crisis, and I myself was in the Gulf War. Again, I accept your apology and I thank you for it. My choice would be America the Beautiful if the government ever decides to change the anthem. Kindest reguards to all of you, Neil


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Fiolar
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:06 PM

Several years ago I used to pass a house on my way to work which had painted on the gable "Yanks Go Home." I used to wonder what kind of a pathetic idiot would do such a thing. However when the "Yanks" finally did go home there was much "weeping and gnashing of teeth" as the local economy took a nosedive and many houses were left empty and tradesmen saw their profits drop.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: GUEST,Carol's Friend Don
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:35 PM


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:39 PM

By this logic, Canada, Brazil and Australia are also Empires, since the territory of their countries consists of land annexed from indigenous peoples.

I'd see no reason not to call them empires as well. The word empire doesn't in itself imply tyranny or genocide etc, any more than it implies benignity - the word just means a set up where a central government holds together an assembly of disparate states. For example, the United States.

I still find it strange that Americans seem so sensitive about this kind of stuff. It's like those stories about elephants being frightened by mice. A standing invitation to any mouse who's feeling a bit low to say "I know, I'll go out and frighten an elephant, that always cheers me up." (And please note I'm not recommending that any mice do that - it's both dangerous and unkind.)

Drop the Star Spangled Banner because it's too difficult to sing, in favour of America the Beautiful? I'd call that dumbing down. Better to learn to sing it properly. I suppose the French could drop the Marseilleise and sing Frere Jacques instead. But they won't. (If you can't hit the high notes in a song, simple enough, just sing them low instead.)


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:42 PM

Greg,

Yes, I live in Texas now. It's history is fascinating, and much more complex than you seem to understand. I'm only saying that to sweepingly lump the "acquisition" of Texas with the Mexican War is off. In fact, it's sort of looking at it backwards. Texas rebelled in 1835-1836, joined the U.S. in 1845 from the status of a free Republic, and the Mexican war was begun and ended in 1846. Texas, then a state, had a lot to do with the U.S. engaging in that war, of course: Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna kept sending troops north of the Rio Grande. The U.S., having accepted Texas into the union, was bound to defend its borders. If the Mexican War was a war of imperialism, then why isn't Mexico a part of the United States? Hell, they took Mexico City.

Texas history is something I'm still studying, as it is all around me, in museums and libraries and private collections. What one gets in the schools is the bare bones of history, no matter the subject -- and it's not always so very accurate in its assessment of the motives behind events. Sure, slave ownership was probably one of the "economic issues," but there were more, many more Mexican-owned slaves than Anglo-owned. Like much of the U.S., Texas was initially sought out for "a new start" by people who weren't "making it" back in their home states from the Anglo point of view. The entire Anglo population of Texas at the time of its rebellion was under 35,000 -- and there were a LOT of women and children in that number. The fact that Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna had overthrown the legitimate Mexican government and established a dictatorship in Mexico would have had more to do with armed rebellion than an issue that might have otherwise been solved in the Mexican courts and legislature.

As for my being patronizing, sorry if you feel that way. I thought we were just trying to thrash out some facts, and I suppose that living next door to another American country makes me more sensitive on a daily basis to their feelings on the matter than others may be.

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 03:03 PM

McGrath- perhaps our difference on the "empire" question is primarily semantic. I associate the word with forcible conquest and annexation, as for example the Alexandrian and Roman Empires of ancient times, or the British Empire of late, and perhaps also the Third Reich. I also tend to think in terms of Monarchies or Dictatorships when the word "empire" comes up.

If you view an Empire as a large nation-state with world balance-of-power overtones, I might agree that the US is one. Brazil might be stretching it. Personally, I think there should be a better term to describe Super States (and no, I don't like that one either) in the 21st Century that isn't quite so redolent of colonialism and conquest.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: GUEST,Carol's Friend Don
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 03:05 PM

NOTE to Greg F: Ref: the "Philippine Insurection". Noting your point about propaganda, I must point out that the insurrection had nothing to do with the Filipinos throwing off American rule. Far to the contrary, the Filipinos were, at that point, quite happy to be out from under Spains rule (Remember the Spanish-American War was only 12 years before). The Moslems wanted their own island nation and committed some Taliban type "inducements" (i.e. disemboweling infidels, which might be seen as "religious freedom" to some).

While this might seem like American Imperialism, which may have mattered to some of the Filipinos who actually knew we were there ( i.e. a backward island nation with no communication except poor roads and dugout canoes) the Japanese changed all that some 25 years later by disemboweling everybody. A good book on the American perspective of this is "American Guerilla in the Phillipines", (I don't remember the author) published in the 1950's. Those Filipinos who rejoiced at the defeat of the Americans at Corregidor, became part of the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, and didn't live long enough to regret it. But I digress...


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 03:20 PM

That's okay, GUEST CFD, you can find a lot of digression above. I confess to being part of it: damned little of this thread has much to do with the original post! We've got several topics going and Art and Spaw striking in with the laughs now and then. Just like a mudcat party somewhere...politics, histories, music, general philosophy and an overall interesting thread.

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 04:48 PM

I accept your remarks, and I never said that All americans were evil, we have evil people here in Scotland as well, so I don't know where you lot get this idea that I think that all Americans are evil, there are some good American out as well.

As for the song, I think that you should have some type of song like If I had a hammer, or This land is your land, or that type of song. A song about brotherhood.

Goodbye Tom Hamilton


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 04:52 PM

Thanks, Tom. If we ever need your advice on your national bird, or on the design of our currency, we'll phone you.

Alex


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:00 PM

Sorry; I meant OUR national bird. Bad fingers.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:04 PM

I never said that all americans were evil, I really don't beleive that for one minute, You have great and good people in America as well. As we do here in Scotland.

However if you want to think that this is my view of all aAmericans then I'm sorry you're wrong.

I'm just an ignorant person from Scotland, and what I'm saying what I've read in the papers or heard on the news here in Scotland.

As for starting a 'flame war' I never did want to start a flame war.

I just wanted to put my on opinions down, and if you think that I'm a racist, then I'm a racist. And I'm sorry for that however that's the way that I was brought up.

That's the way some of us think in Scotland, we don't have your political correctness ideals as you do over there. I just want to be treated as a human being and not the scum that you think I am. Tom Hamilton I just beleive in tell the truth as I see it.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:13 PM

Where we got the idea...please re-read your first post and think about who you meant by "you." It's fairly clear to me you were talking about all of us - I don't think I misunderstood. You did it again in your last post - "so I don't know where you lot get this idea..." Who, specifically, were you talking to?


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:18 PM

Tom, it's not "political correctness." I think maybe you haven't run into much prejudice and may not understand it. At least I hope that's the case.

You said "I just want to be treated as a human being and not the scum that you think I am." That's what I should have written in reply to your first post.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:19 PM

No problem, Sarah- never claimed to be an expert on Texican History, so I've got some brushing up to do. Truce in the meantime?

If the Mexican War was a war of imperialism, then why isn't Mexico a part of the United States? Believe it had a great deal to do with the Wilmot Proviso & the northern & Free Soil & Abolition elements' opposition to acquisition of additional territories south of "Mason and Dixon's Line" where slavery could be extended. Even 'American Imperialists' aren't always entirely successful!  :-)

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:21 PM

I never said that all Amercans were Evil, I think that most of you lot are great guys, if I have upset the American nation by saying the things I said then I'm sorry. Please don't think that I'm a racist, it's the way that here in Scotland that's the way that some of us were brought up.

I'm just an ignorant man and I don't know better, maybe I should just shut up and say nothing against Americans or any other country, because they will take offence as well.

TO ALL AMERICANS EVERYWHERE

I AM SORRY

I just say the truth the way I see it.

I just blurt out without thinking, I din't mean to start this flame war, as someone put it, I just wanted to say what I felt at the time. And obvious this has upset all Americans, I know I'll just stop writing now because all I'm doing is digging a great big hole for myself.

So I'll see you I hope in the future, and I think that your counrty is great.

I don't think that I'm greater than you lot.

I not and never will be. So it's good bye from me Tom Hamilton


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:27 PM

Tom, if this was just one big misunderstanding, forget it. Perhaps we can all learn something from it.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:36 PM

thank you jeri


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:39 PM

Thank you for that message Jeri.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:40 PM

Thank you for understanding what I was saying Jeri

Tom


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:42 PM

Feel free to PM me if you really don't understand why people got so upset. (It wasn't about you insulting America - we Americans do that all the time.) I don't bite. I'm also a lot better at explaining how I feel about things than arguing about them.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:54 PM

Jeri, let us all know. I don't understand why *I* get so upset about it. But I do.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 06:17 PM

It's being seen as a thing instead of an individual. It's prejudice - judging people based on how you think they are instead if finding out how they really are. It's thinking that people who possess one particular quality all have great rhythm and like fried chicken, or maybe they like to drink a lot and eat potatoes, or maybe they all swagger, carry guns and think they own the world. It's about not seeing me as Jeri, who lives in a small town in New Hampshire, plays fiddle and who did NOT vote for George Bush, but seeing me as a stereotypical American.

When busbiter wrote "And then you go and tell other governments who to run their countries, when you lot had slavery, and you still in some parts of the ones who want to bring back slavery to your country," he was talking to me, and every other American reading the message.

I've never told a government how to run their country. My government may have, but not me. I also had no more responsibility for slavery than anyone else alive today. I can't make the KKK and skinheads go away, and I sure as hell didn't create them.

So I hear "you" and I assume he's talking to me, and blaming me for all those things.

Busbiter didn't upset the American nation - he upset me - Jeri, who lives in New Hampshire, plays fiddle and didn't vote for Bush. I get upset because I want to be treated like a human being, and I get irritated when I'm treated like a nameless thing in a big lump called "Americans."


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 07:07 PM

That sounds right, Jeri. Thanks for articulating it for us.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 07:34 PM

Whoops - my apology for continually spelling busbitter's name wrong.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 07:59 PM

Busbitter me lad..........I think that though Jeri phrased some of this quite well, it is incumbent upon me, Spaw, who farts a lot and lives in a small town in Ohio, that Jeri, who plays fiddle and lives in a small town in New Hampshire, does bite.

Since everything else seemed to be cleared up I felt it was important to get this out too.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:00 PM

I still say that if I was an American, I'd get much more pissed off at people mangling a fine national anthem than getting upset and taking personally generalisations about my country.

If someone says something rude about me and it's true, I've no right to get upset about it. And if it's not true, it's not really about me, and I've no reason to get upset. I might want to set the record straight, but that's a wholly different thing.

Generalisations and stereotypes about other countries are always going to be largely false, whether they are flattering or insulting. And the impression I've got is that Americans are just as prone to make them as anyone else. I really don't think most of us give a damn when they do, but maybe that's a generalisation too far.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:04 PM

Golly, McGrath, too bad we can't all be as well-adjusted as you are. Tell me again what brand of Scotch you drink?


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: RedCelt
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:23 PM

and now for something completely different...

If anyone reads this far down... At NTIF this last weekend, I heard someone sing a song that they say was the original tune to the Star Spangled Banner. It was a british drinking song that referred to the twining of Bacchus and Venus and seemed to be concerned with combining two great pastimes.. drinking and whoring

learning that our founders were more human every day...

Jeff


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:25 PM

(Ya know, what really ticks me off is typing up a message, hitting submit, and having AOL disconnect me. Geez!)

busbitter,

Don't carry it around: Apology accepted, for my part. In fact, I can see how, read one way, the words of "The Star-Spangled Banner" could be heard as sounding arrogant indeed. If you'll cruise back over some of the posts, you'll find a lot of people, even here, don't think it's the best choice for a national anthem. (Me, I don't like the range it calls for, as there ivariably seems to be a thinning of the voices in any crowd when they're asked to hit those high notes on the line you dislike. And, of course, it always seems to be played in a key that calls for a mezzo-soprano to reach those notes. I tend to think of the lyrics as the expression of an ideal, something we struggle to attain, so they don't bother me.)

But I would ask you, please, to start to read your papers with a more cynical eye: they're written by people with their own agendas, papers are -- and God alone knows what some of those agendas are, beyond promoting "good copy." They do seem to love to sterotype us all. If I were to rely on the papers and news media for all my information about other areas of the world, I'd assume that Jeri lives in an industrial hellhole that stretches from the seacoast of Maine to Chicago; that Alex, being from the Northwest, keeps a chainsaw in the shed to cut down ancient redwoods in his spare time and dines on spotted owl. As I am in Texas, we can conclude that I can't read, let alone write, and am obviously having this typed by some visiting New Yorker who has taken pity on me. And you, a Scot, must steal cattle for a living, keep sheep and are dour and penny-pinching -- and you have one two-lane road running the length of Scotland. None of which is true. (Well, Alex might...no, no, surely not!)

Anyway, we all fire off something now and again that raises hackles and gets someone's ire up. You've taken it well: Come home; all is forgiven.

Sarah

P.S. Greg, were we quarreling? Of course "truce," you imperialist swine!


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:33 PM

Tom: Hopefully you read my above last in the frame I meant it in. I accept your apology and I believe you mistated a bit. In that I mean you may not have been as clear as you might have wished. Jeri Articulated my feelings better than I did I think. I apologise for that and offer my hand in friendship. Kindest reguards, Neil. PS The Mexican War started in 1846 and went to 1848. As stated above, Texas was a free republic and had been since 1836. Also as provisioned by the Treaty of Guadaloupe, Mexico was paid not only for California but for the areas encompassing New Mexico Arizona and Nevada. The war began as a border dispute namely over wheither the Rio Grande or the Nueces River was the border. Mexico had been approached dipolomatically before the incident but had declined U.S. offers to purchase the disputed areas mentioned above. Kindest reguards, again, Neil


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:43 PM

There are no redwoods in the Northwest! The redwoods are down in Californi-yay. We have what we call cedars (they're really a type of cypress) and douglas-firs (which are not firs at all, nor spruces nor pines, but their own genus). See how confusing our local trees are? No wonder the owls are becoming extinct.

I do have a chainsaw, but it doesn't work because the oil-delivery mechanism is busted. I have no use for it, but I inherited it from my grandfather (who had no use for it either but that's another question!).

Alex


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:46 PM

Neil,

You're right, it did drag on for two years. I stand corrected.

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:48 PM

Maybe it's a pity Flanders and Swann never got round new words for a few National Anthems. But here's what they did write a propos some of the matters touched on in this thread (From this excelent website I found when I went looking for this song):

A Song of Patriotic Prejudice

The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.

The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
You'll find he's a stinker, as likely as not.

The Scotsman is mean, as we're all well aware
And bony and blotchy and covered with hair
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And he hasn't got bishops to show him the way!

The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.

The Irishman now our contempt is beneath
He sleepes in his boots and he lies through his teeth
He blows up policemen, or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third!

The English are noble, the English are nice,
And worth any other at double the price

The Welshman's dishonest and cheats when he can
And little and dark, more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp in his hat
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and flat!

And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much
Of French and the Spanish, the anish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red,
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed!

The English are moral, the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood.

And all the world over, each nation's the same
They've simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won
And they practice beforehand which ruins the fun!

The English, the English, the English are best
So up with the English and down with the rest.

It's not that they're wicked or natuarally bad
It's knowing they're foreign that makes them so mad!

For the English are all that a nation should be,
And the flower of the English are Donald (Michael)
Donald (Michael) and Me!

(Perhaps fortunately the song never got round to discussing the Americans...)


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:48 PM

Alex,

Please, please stop making those treks to Califonia...

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:50 PM

Sarah, you've lost me. I haven't made a trek to California for over 13 years, and the one before that was when I was 10 years old. What on earth are you talking about?

Alex


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:53 PM

All those poor redwoods.

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:01 PM

Its OK Alex, just climb back up to the paramilitary compound on the ridge there in the great NW and try to forgive Sarah from Texas, where lip movement is a first indicator of lying. We'll just leave Jeri out of it, living there amongst the tall factory stacks in her tiny worker's shack.

Spaw (in Ohio where there is..........uh,.....er,uh........hmmmm.........well crap.......just BLAND NOTHIN'!!!!..........what a drag..............)


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:07 PM

You obviously didn't read my post.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:07 PM

Spaw, we call that "creative reality..." here. See the Achievable Affirmation thread.

Sarah (and her pet New Yorker)


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:09 PM

The paramilitary compounds are in IDAHO, dammit. You people from "back east" are all a bunch of nincompoops when it comes to West Coast geography. Hell, Spaw, just because Ohio is next-door to Maine doesn't mean you have to be an idjit!


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:10 PM

Alex, I did read it...just that, from the sterotypical understanding, you must be going to California then, so you can take out a few redwoods.

Okay, it was weak...

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:20 PM

Hey!!! I got it!! Let's replant some giant redwoods to Montana and bring is a few dirty factories too. But we'll lie and say its all in Idaho and staffed by folks from New York.

What the hell was this thread about anyway?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:25 PM

Beats the hell out of me. Something about some song, I think.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:39 PM

Spaw,

Oh, gawd, now my stomach hurts! LOL!

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 11:04 PM

Alex, you can't blame the Easterners for getting confused about Western geography. The states are all squares, for gosh sakes! It's like one of those little puzzles where you push the squares around and try to get the numbers in order. They're all interchangeable! Why don't you have nice sensible irregular borders, so the states all stay put?

Aloha,
Mark
(who grew up in Pennsylvania and lived in some of those West Coast states and now lives in Hawaii where the US Government really did annex an independent ally at the bidding of a few rich merchants--in fact, why don't we make "Aloha Oe" the national anthem? Or maybe "I Wanna Go Back to My Little Grass Shack in Kealekekua Hawaii (Where the Humuhumunukunukuapua'a Goes Swimming By)"?)


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: En
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 12:35 AM

I beg to differ. California is definitely not square. It is quite hip, in fact. Well, maybe just not square: they say someone shook the country and all the loose screws rolled west. The are the nuts and bolts of this great state. In the case of my family, emphasis on nuts.

Regarding our national sins: My students are refugees of China, Korea, Tibet, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Central America, and Russia (typical SF area population). We sing America the Beautiful in my classroom every day, right before we discuss the evils and repercussions of slavery, the legacy of Hiroshima, or American domination of indigenous peoples. All this is required by the State of California. Perhaps the world is so familiar with the sins of America because we are so free to admit them, without fear of our government. Admitting one has a problem is the first step on the road to change.

Aloha, Mark--I used to live in Aeia, HI--only town in the US whose name is vowels only.

--En


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 03:34 AM

McGrath - It's the considered opinion of many in this country that our national anthem has an awkward melody. As a matter of fact, some music educators refer to it as an example of awkwardness. I disagree that it's no more difficult than the other anthems you mentioned, or that a change to America The Beautiful would be a dumbing down. We sing the Star Spangled Banner every month at our chantey sings, to open the second set. We always have to pitch it very low, so that the high notes can be reached by everyone. My belief is that a national anthem should have a melody that's both interesting - not overly simplified - and easily singable for its citizenry. I think the other ones you mentioned fit that category, as does America The Beautiful.

-chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: GUEST,Carol's Friend Don
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 12:29 PM

Hey Mark, En, I'm an ol' kamaina myself. Went to Radford, which was long before they built Aiea High. (Bette Midler was our senior class president, a fact she never mentions in her official bio - doesn't fit with the rejected Jewish-Samoan angst). I lived on McGrew Point, which was called Hospital Point during WWII and was the sight point for the Jap planes on Dec 7. I remember them building the present Arizona Monument (the old one was just a wooden platform across the hulk). And the highest building on the island was the Royal Hawaiian (or Tripler Army Hospital). But I saw the Islands on my way back from 'Nam in 69 and Waikiki had gone to hell. Still, it was a great place to be a kid...Hawaii noe ka oi


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 01:37 PM

Hello it's me, the one who started all of this.

Now I don't want to start another one, however I don't know how to put this but the parliment of Scotland is being run by the Government in London, so the Scots people might have a parliment but we can't call it a goverment because the Labour party won't allow us to do.

So I'll be signing off now.

Goodbye Tom.

P.S. I thought that might let you know.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 02:11 PM

hello


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 02:14 PM

When I say that the Scots people, I'm talking about the people who voted for the Scottish National Party and not the other political parties in Scotland.

Mind you this is just my view

Tom. And as I said I don't want to start another flame war.

So I'll jst shut my mouth and say nothing.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 02:15 PM

Hell Tom, move here to the states. We don't have anything you can call a government either. We got a shrub if you like that kinda' thing though.........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 02:23 PM

When I say that the people of Scotland, I talk about some Scottish People, as a member of the Scottish National Party who want freedom in Scotland, We don't consider that what we have is Scotland as Home rule.

What we have is a devovled parliment and a government, as I said before Tony Blair in London told the Scottish excutive in Edinburgh that they weren't allowed to call themselves a government why I'll never know.

The other parties are frightend of the S.N.P. because some of them don't independance in Scotland, they want to be told what to do be the London Governement.

You must remeber that this is just my view and no one else's.

So I hope that you'll understand what I'm saying and if I've upset anyone then I didn't mean it.

Talking about your National anthem, I think it should the red flag or Banderia Rossa, or even the internaitonale.

Well what you choose I hope that it's the right one for all of you whatever race, creed or colour you are. Tom


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 03:17 PM

TOm: I stand corrected. I do the insert thing myself. I was objecting to the classification of Scotland as a third world nation. What I should have said is; in spite of not having it's own government, Scotland has a rich culture and history and should be considered a nation under occupation. Not neccessarily in an evil way and it may be what the majority of Scots want but it is still dominated by a government in London rather than one seated in Edinburgh or Glasgow (Where my great grandfather was from I believe) Kindest reguards, Neil


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 03:30 PM

Well, I can sing "The Star-Spangled Banner," but I always goof up the tune on "The Internationale." Guess I'll have to work on that one.

It's not the tune of "Banner" I dislike. It's an interesting, stirring tune and the lyrics have an interesting story behind them - but it's so militaristic. It seems to me that most national anthems are militaristic - even "The Internationale" sounds militaristic in tone. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could break out of that mold and have anthems that celebrate peace and beauty and idealism? That's why I like "America the Beautiful."

-Joe Offer-



RedCelt, if you search our Digital Tradition database for anacreon, you'll find a couple versions of the song that is thought to be the source of the tune for "Star Spangled Banner." Click here for one and here for another. Mudcatter Dave Swan belongs to a group called Oak, Ash, and Thorn - one of their CD's has a nice recording of "To Anacreon in Heaven."


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 08:42 PM

National anthems seem to be mostly divided between those which are a bit militaristic, and those which go on about the beautiful countryside and so forth.

On the whole I tend to prefer the militaristic ones, which tend to be more from the heart. I like SSB because it's not about conquest, it's about resistance and survival, and holding on by the skin of your teeth. A touch of "the Dunkirk spirit", not triumphalist at all really - I know that's not how it gets sung all too often, which is a pity.

Maybe the best national anthems have a touch of nonsense about them - as a child I assumed that Yankee Doodle was the American national anthem. The same way Dixie is a good one, especially with the words Carl Sandburg I had a horse, his name was Bill. And Waltzing Matilda is far better than Advance Australia Fair, Alouette would be a fine Canadian Anthem....


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 12:36 AM

Joe: "America, The Beautiful" is a wonderful song. I feel a swelling in my chest when I hear it sung or played. But there are other things having to do with our heritage that arouse pride in me. I fought under "The Star Spangled Banner" in WWII as my dad did before me in WWI. (I realize it was not the National Anthem in WWI, but there was none other, so in my mind it holds that distinction.)

I think what bothers me is 'breaking the mold', as you put it. Too many molds have been broken in my lifetime, and my backward-looking vision is that the world and the country are not made better for that. Automobiles, televisions, computers and Viagra are not the fundamental elements of Utopia. Nor is the extension of life into the eighties and beyond.

And most of all, I am disheartened by a corollary to the anthem argument which is the unthinking and misguided concept that I should share in the hysterical culpability fervor that is supposed to expunge America's terrible guilt for its heinous disregard for human life. And for who's benefit? Not mine, by a damn site. I haven't been able to play a violin since I was seventeen years old because some damn Jap stuck a bayonet in my left hand. Who is going to apologize to me for that? I'm getting carried away here. Time to quit.

I love America. I love our anthem. I love our flag.

Spud


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 10:13 PM

To all Mudcatters: I apologize for my lapse of sensitivity in the matter of Political Correctness but that's been under my hide for a long time and it just had to come out. Won't happen again.

Joe, that wasn't aimed at you. You just nudged the door ajar.

Spud


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Amos
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:47 PM

Hell with it. Let's adopt the "Marseilleise". Allons, enfants de la patrieeeeeeeUH! La jour du GLOIRE est arrivee!!! That's blood-stirring, stand up and kill-the-invader type music that we can all be proud of. None of this "Oh, sayyyyyy" stuff. Spit it out and get it saud!!! Oui MonSIEUR!!! And while we're practicing all this Francophilia I think we should move the Capitol down to N'Awrleans.

A


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: GUEST,Sarah at work
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 07:57 AM

Amos,

Nah, I vote for Omaha first -- and then move it again every 4 years, the second year of any presidency. Keep the little darlings busy for a while, and maybe get them back in touch with reality.

I mean, New Orleans is a nice town -- why would you want to permanently scar it?

Sarah (at work)


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 08:13 AM

It could be worse for you Americans - you could have ended up with God Save Our Queen - I hate that tune... now the Welsh have a great tune - even makes a good waltz -not that my Welsh friends seem to approve of me playing it that way on melodeon.

Jon


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 12:52 PM

Spud, your reaction is understandable. None of us would have the option to be politically enlightened and open-minded without the sacrifices your generation made. Thank you.

LEJ


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 01:44 PM

Hear, hear!


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Fiolar
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 08:30 AM

History is a dead duck as far as many kids are concerned nowadays. In a recent poll carried out on behalf of Abbey National among seven to 16 year olds, sixty percent were unsure what happened in 1066, with 18 percent stating it was the Battle of Waterloo. As for USA forty-four percent thought it meant the "Union States of America." National Anthems used to be honoured and were always stood for. I suppose really that many would regard them now as something from a byegone age and would probably think something by Robbie Williams or Eminem more suitable.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 03:38 PM

Wshat's the matter with all of you? If singing "The Defemse of Fort McHenry" (The original name of "The Star Spangled Banner") is too difficult for you, then I sugest you find a differnt key to sing it in. If that doesn't work, find a good singing teacher. The Melody of "To nachreon in heaven", written by John Stafford Smith, was a very much used one, in the late 18th and early 19th centuries there were at least 11 different sets of lyrics sung to this tune. These are well documented. Among them was John Adams' presidential campaign song, "Adams and Liberty", each verse of which ended with, "And ne'er shall the sons of Columbia be slaves, while the land grows a tree or the sea rolls a wave". So, it appears that the old timers were better singers than you are. The original song, was written in 1775 as an anthem for The Anachreonic Society if London". Anachreon was an old Athenian philosopher, who advocated, "Boozing and Broads" to excess. He was long dead by the time the society which was named for him, was formed. It was assumed that he was in Heaven. The aforementioned song, describes a petition sent, "To Anachreon, in Heaven" and his reply. The first verse says:

TO ANACHREON,IN HEAVEN, WHERE HE DWELT IN FULL GLEE, A FEW SONS OF HARMONY, SENT A PETITION. THAT HE, THEIR INSTRUCTOR AND PATRON, WOULD BE, WHEN THE ANSWER ARRIVED, FROM THE JOLLY OLD GRECIAN, "VOICE, FIDDLE AND FLUTE, NO LONGER BE MUTE, I'LL LEND YOU MY NAME, AND, INSTRUCT YOU, TO BOOT, AND, I WILL TEACH YOU, LIKE ME, TO ENTWINE, THE MYRTLE OF VENUS WITH BACCHUS' WINE"


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 04:51 PM

Oh to be a fly on the wall at the gatherings of the Anachreon Society!


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 07:02 PM

By the time "To Anachreon in Heaven"'s melody got to 1815 ish Baltimore, it seems that everyone was singing one or another sets of lyrics to this extremely popular tune. Well, the story goes, the British troops that had just demolished the Washington DC militia and burned that city to the ground, found a very different reception fom the Baltimore militia. ("militia" is a plural word and includes every able bodied person between the ages of 16 and 60, not a member of the official military establishment, capable of temporary combat service) They, tthe British, met with well trained and well armed militia units who beat the crap out of them. They, the British again, decided that an overland attack on Baltimore was not an option, and that a sea borne assault was more likely to be successful. They would first, however, have to silence the long range, heavy guns of Fort McHenry. To try to get past Ft. McHenry's Field artillery would be futile. So, limping back to their fleet, the British Forces spent the night in "Upper Camden" (or someting like that) Maryland. The Headman of that community, Dr. Bean, after conferring with the town council, notified the British Commander that they would offer no resistance, as there was none to offer, and that they would feed them before they went on their way the next morning. This was acceptable to the British C.O. But, three British soldiers went AWOL, stayed behind, got drunk and very rowdy, upon which, they were arrested and locked up in the town jail. The Commander of the British Expeditionary Force, hearing that three of his soldiers had been captured, and, not knowing the true details of this act, sent a detail of Royal Marines to secure their rescue and to arrest Dr. Bean. Dr Bean was imprisoned on the British Flagship. He would be dealt with after the attack on Ft Mc Henry. The Town Council of Upper Camden secured the services of a much liked and very respected lawyer, Francis Scott Key, who was known to have a very pleasing personality and convincing manner. Mr Key sailed out to the British Fleet on his own little sloop, under a flag of truce, was welcomed aboard the British Flagship where he convinced the commander that the soldiers' arrest had not ben an act of warfare, but a simple civil matter. He acquainted the Commander with the true details of the actions that resulted in the arrest, and assured the Commander that anyone, American or English, who behaved in so disgraceful a manner would have been arrested. Mr.Key's argument was accepted, Dr. Bean was released and the three soldiers were arrested, "Awaiting the King's Pleasure". However, MR. Key, his companion and Dr. Bean, for their own safety, were asked to spend the night aboard their little sloop, tied up next to the British Flagship, as,that very night, The fleet would bombard Ft.McHenry, and attempt to silence their guns. All that night the three Americans watched as everything the fleet had, including newly developed exploding cannonballs and rockets, was hurled at at the defenders ashore. The following morning, in the silence following the attack, The three Americans, not knowing if they even had a Country left, peered anxiously through the slowly dissipating morning fog until, finally, they caught sight of the huge 15 starred and 15 striped flag, now on display at the Smithsonian, still flying over the fort. Overcome by emotion, tears of joy in his eyes, (as reported by the other two) and with John Stafford Smith's melody in mind, Francis Scott Key composed the deathless 4 stanza poem which he named, "The Defense of Fort McHenry" Returning to Baltimore they had a panphlet printed up that very night, Mr. Key had a pamphlet printed up with the changed title, "The Star Spangled Banner" with the notation, that the poem was to be sung to the melody of, "To Anachreon in Heaven". This pamphlet was distributed, free of charge, to the citizenry of Baltimore the following morning, by the three friends, where it was an immediate hit.

There are, indeed, 4 verses to this song. Just before World War I, American music publishers stopped printing the 3d verse (you'll see why) because we were once again, solid friends with the Mother Country. British publishers continued printing all 4 verses. The third verse caught my eye when I was looking through the "Scottish Students' Song Book" published in 1891. With all 4 verses the song has continuity. Our newly elected (?) Vice President, in a rebuttal to one of President Clinton's first speeches ended his adress with, "Remember, we are the only Country in the world who's National Anthem begins and ends with a question". I GUESS HE NEVER READ THE WHOLE POEM or even the 3 verse version. and this typical Republican is our Vice President. Mr. Bush, I wish you a long , long life. I'm a folksinger and I like this song a lot, and I sing it as part of my performance every now and then. The guitar accompaniement isn't at all difficult. I do it in "G". Here's the whole song.

                         I
OH SAY CAN YOU SEE BY THE DAWN'S EARLY LIGHT,
WHAT SO PROUDLY WE HAILED AT THE TWILIGHTS LAST GLEAMING
WHOSE BROAD STRIPES AND BRIGHT STARS
THROUGH THE PERILOUS FIGHT
O'ER THE RAMPARTS WE WATCHED WERE SO GALLANTLY STREAMING
AND THE ROCKETS RED GLARE, BPMBS BURSTING IN AIR
GAVE PROOF THROUGH THE NIGHT THAT OUR FLAG WAS STILL THERE
OH, SAY, DOES THAT STAR SPANGLED BANNER YET WAVE
O'ER THE LAND OF THE FREE AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE?.


II
ON THE SHORE, DIMLY SEEN, THROUGH THE MISTS OF THE DEEP
WHERE THE FOE'S HAUGHTY HOST IN DREAD SILENCE REPOSES
WHAT IS THAT WHICH THE BREEZE, O'ER THE TOWERING STEEP
SO FITFULLY BLOWS, HALF CONCEALS, HALF DISCLOSES?
NOW IT CATCHES THE GLEAM OF THE MORNING'S FIRST BEAM
IN FULL GLORY REFLECTED NOW SHINES IN THE STREAM
'TIS THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER, OH, LONG MAY IT WAVE
O'ER THE LAND OF THE FREE AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE.

III
NOW WHERE IS THE FOE WHO SO VAUNTINGLY SWORE
MIDST THE HAVOC OF WAR AND THE BATTLE'S CONFUSION
A HOME AND A COUNTRY THEY'D LEAVE US NO MORE?
THEIR BLOOD HAS WASHED OUT THEIR FOUL FOOTSTEPS POLLUTION.
NO REFUGE COULD SAVE THE HIRELING OR SLAVE,
FROM THE TERROR OF FLIGHT OR THE GLOOM OF THE GRAVE.
AND THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER IN TRIUMPH SHALL WAVE
O'ER THE LAND OF THE FREE AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE.

IV
SO THUS BE IT EVER WHEN FREE MEN SHALL STAND
BETWEEN THEIR LOVED HOMES AND THE WARS DESOLATION
BLESSED WITH VICTORY AND PEACE MAY THIS HEAVEN RESCUED LAND
PRAISE THE POWER THAT HATH MADE AND PRESERVED US A NATION
THEN CONQUER WE MUST WHEN OUR CAUSE IT IS JUST
AND THIS BE OUR MOTTO, "IN GOD IS OUR TRUST"
THEN THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER IN TRIUMPH SHALL WAVE
WHILE THE LAND OF THE FREE IS THE HOME OF THE BRAVE


Now, perhaps you'll re think your position. Considering the conditions under which this remarkable piece of literature was composed, do you still think we should exchange it for some non-descript piece of drivel?
IN FULL GLORY REFLECTED NOW SHINES IN THE STREAM
Line Breaks <br> added. Preformat commands <pre> (beginning) and </pre> (end) added to space Roman numerals.
-Joe Offer, who prefers "America the Beautiful" and does not consider it "drivel"-


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 09:03 PM

can't we all just get along? Hey whoever transcribed my last bit about the star spangled banner, how about putting the paragraphs and numbers the way I wrote them?

following may or may not be politically correct. Frankly Scarlet, I don't give a damn. In the first place, I STRONGLY OBJECT TO THE TERM, "NATIVE AMERICAN" AS BEING EXCLUSIVELY USED TO DESCRIBE THE STONE AGE PEOPLE WHO FIRST INHABITED THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE. There are no indigenous Homo Sapiens in the Americas. My grandparents were born in Europe, My parents were both born in Brooklyn, N.Y. I was born in Brooklyn in 1929, and, I AM A NATIVE AMERICAN, AS NATIVE AS ANYONE ELSE. Look it up in your Fu==nkyn wagnals. My wife's family has been in Newport,RI since 1639. And she's a Native American as are my three children. My old friend, Tall Oak of the Naragansett Nation is also a Native American. Now then, we are all making too much of our ethnic heritqage. Tshe sooner we start to call ourselves, "Americans" and forget about all the hyphens, the sooner we'll begin to be the people that I know we can become. England didn't start to really become a world power until they canned the , "I'm a Norman, you're a Saxon" crap and started to think of themselves as being "Englishmen" (and Women) I know that the politically correct thinking of the day is to preserve your ehtnic culture and identity. But, that is devisive and keeps us in seperate groups. I'm against B-lingual edication. It tends to discourage unity. Some of the people who were here before the Italian or Russian immigrants got here had well developed civilizations, The Cherokee had an elected government with a woman at it'sd head, a written language (invented by a guy named, " Sequoia" A well documented history, etc. They may not have had the material things that the europeans had, but they were certainly as civilized. At the same time, the "Great preservers of the environment" (or so they said) hunted the North American Wooly Mammouth to . This is within recorded history. Why? Because they were easy There were many attrocities commited by past peoples. I don't deny this. But here's the bottom line: I WOULDN'T OWN A SLAVE, I WOULDN'T DO ANY OF ATROCIOUS THINGS THAT PAST PEOPLES HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF. fURTHERMORE, I WOULDN'T TURN A BLIND EYE TO ANYONE ELSES ATTROCIOUS BEHAVIOR. I've demonstrated my stand against intollerance over and over again, ever since I learned to think for myself, at age 15 or so. I had my own civil rights and integration movement going well before it became fashionable. While I was stationed in England in the USAF (I was a T/Sgt Air Traffic Controller at RAF Lakenheath) I formed the first integrated country music group ever to record for a major label, The Muleskinners. We recorded for the Parlophone Co. George Martin was the A&R director of Parlophone at the time. This was in 1958. I was a member of CORE in the 60's and put my own body on the line more than once. At the same time, there have been social changes and advancements that I never thought I'd live to see. I'm fiercely proud of my southern countrymen and what they've accomplished during my lifetime. I'm still at it, working to effect social change. If your curious , E-Mail...RISHOTOKANHQPROV@PRODIGY,NET nOW IF THIS DOESN'T MEET WITH YOUR POLITICAL APPROVAL, gopissuparope.com


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 09:34 PM

Cranky, with posts like those, you are well on your way to competing with Kendall for the resident curmudgeon title. I enjoyed the history lesson. I never knew the whole story.

LEJ


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 10:00 PM

Well Leej, I think you HAVE been the fly on the wall................

So MA FAZOO, do all those others end with "Play Ball" or what?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 10:07 PM

THANKYOU, ART FOR THE KOTTKE JOKE. ONCE, WHEN HE WAS SINGING HERE IN NEWPORT,RI AT SALT THEATER (NOW DEFUNCT) HE REFERRED TO HIS OWN VOICE AS SOUNDING LIKE :GOOSE FARTS." SO YOUR JOKE GAVE ME 2 LAUGHS FOR THE PRICE OF ONE. AS FOR THE AMERICAN ANTHEM, AS A SONG, I CAN'T FAULT IT. ANTHEMS IN GENERAL, HOWEVER, GIVE ME THE PIP. UNLESS MAYBE WE COULD WRITE A TERRAN ONE. BUT WILL THAT EVER HAPPEN? NO, BY SAGAN, NOT UNTIL WE DISCOVER INTELLIGENT LIFE ELSEWHERE IN THE MULTIVERS AND NEED A SNAPPY TUNE TO KEEP OUR PECKERS UP FOR THE FIRST INTERGALACTIC WAR. RAVE ON.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 10:16 PM

JUST WENT IN TO SEE IF CRANKY YANKEE HAD ANY FEEDBACK TO HIS COMMENTS, AND TO MY HORROR, FOUND THAT ALL HIS (LENGHTY) MESSAGES HAD MY NAME ON THEM! YOU SEE FOLKS (JEAD HANGING DOWN IN EXAGGERATED SHAME) I'M MARRIED TO THE MAN. HE'S THE ONE WHO GAVE YOU ALL THE HISTORY LESSONS AND WHO WAS RIGHTLY CALLED A CURMUDGEON FOR IT. AS YOU CAN PROBABLY TELL WE HAVE A MOST INTERESTING HOUSEHOLD. HOPE TO READ MANY MORE FASCINATING THOUGHTS FROM THE FOLKS AT MUDCAT. GLAD WE FOUND YOU. LOVE MA


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 10:21 PM

Yeah........We're glad to MA, but caps aren't needed unless you're really mad or something. Welcome to the 'Cat and we hope you too will learn to love this place as much as some of us do.

NOW STOP IT WITH THE CAPS!!!!!!!!!!

Spaw (:<))


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 10:58 PM

Sarah, Omaha was a great place to grow up in, but I found after a couple months elsewhere that I had no urge to return except to see what's left. Those holsteins that used to be in the pasture across Dodge from U. of Omaha weren't the the last time I looked. Is Peony Park still around? I got my social security card at age 12 so I could get a job helping to clean it up after it got flooded (again). Mud 6 inches deep. My grandfater's house in East Omaha got flooded every time the Missouri decided it was flood time, and he came to live with us in west Omaha (about a mile from the Aksarben). We'd got down every night to see how much of the chimney was visible, and every one would palaver for about half an hour about how soon he'd get back to clean up. Missouri floods were better than those at Peony Park; the mud was only about a 1/2 inch deep, and the walls were cleaner than before the flood. Automatic spring cleaning.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 10:59 PM

The last two spasms under the name, "Cranky Yankee" were, in fact written by my wife, "MA FAZOO" WITH WHOM I DON'T ALWAYS SEE EYE TO AYE. (we're both square rig sailors and riggers) She says that we need a "Planatal Anthem" That's ok with me. It could start with, "Old Macdonald had a farm, EEYAYE, EE-EYE, YO. DOT COM. 'spaw, she says she does'nt know why she used caps, she's not even a capitalist. See what I have to live with?


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 11:14 PM

LOL....Well Crank and Ma.....We're glad to have you both!!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 11:26 PM

I really believe Ma is right -- we need a true, a beautiful, a Terran Anthem, and I think a good starting point would be Robert Heinlein's "Green Hills of Earth". But we need to take out the rocket jockey stuff and find a jolly air to put it to. Now the jolliest airs in these parts are produced in Ohio, se we should probably ask one of the elders there...


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 11:45 PM

Thanks Amos, but I don't think the 'airs' produced here in Ohio are the ones we want to use in any anthem, unless you want to consider "Ode to the Little Brown Shack Out Back" as a possibility.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 10 Mar 01 - 06:05 AM

In one of my previous spasms, I mention "The North American Wooly Mamouth". The line should read, "Hunted the North American Wooly Mamouth TO EXTINCTION". SPAW, either you or I should hire a proofreader, or, at the very least, read our copy over before it is submitted BUSBITER, Don't you dare quit, I'd rather have the opiniion of someone who can think, write and say things while standing on his (or her) feet and right off the top of his (or her) head without carefully examining each word so as to cover his (or her) ass, than the opinion of those people who carefuuly consider what they are saying for political correctness. (pffhew, as I wipe my brow)

CHANTEYRANGER. Being as a Chanteyman has to have the exp[erience and qualification to be in charge of whatever operation they are engaged in and must be completely familiar with the mechanics and operation of the running rigging of what ever vessel he's been hired to work on, (very minimum RATING OF "AB" BETTER OF BOATSWAIN OR MATE) and not just a folksinger who sings chanteys, what are your qualifications. (not to be nasty , just curious and hoping for the best) I am a full time professional Boatswain-Chanteyman, perhaps, the last. I've served as both on several vessels, most notably the Hermaphrodite Brig (erroneously referred to as a "Brigantine") "Black Pearl", the full rigged ship "HMS Rose" (accurate replica of an 18th century 20 gun, 6th rate warship) amd the tops'l schooners "Bill of Rights" and "Aurora. I was not only "Rose's" Boatswain, but my wife and I did the original rigging and I trained the crew, being the only one of her original crew with any extensive experience with "Square Rigging". This included the Captain who did a magnificent job of teaching what we referred (lovingly) to as, "A plumber, a gorilla and a bunch of Hippies", how to follow orders while still thinking for themselves. Capt. Jolyn Bireley , a magnificently able cfommander, Formed 20 Men and 5 Women, most of whom were complete landsmen, into a crew of confident, disciplined ad competent seamen. On a sailing vessel, the words, "man", "manned" and "men" have no sexual distinction connected to them. They simply mean "hand", "handled" and "hands". "Rosie" could never have done her maiden voyage, given the size of her crew, without the use of sea chanteys to coordinate the work. None of this has anything to do with our (USA'S) National Anthem. I'd have started a new subject if I knew how. I'm very new to "computering" and almost illiterate. (how's that for a brand new word that I think I just made up)

To be classified as a "Ship", a sailing vessel must be rigged "Square to the mast" (hence, "square rigging") on three or more masts. In other words it must have, AT THE VERY LEAST, THE WHOLE NINE YARDS". Square rigged sails are fastened to long sticks called, "yards", at each end of which there is a section of lesser diameter called, "yardarms" or "The short end of the stick" When crewmen are needed up in the rigging for setting or furling sails, they "get on the stick" and the last one up gets "the short end of the stick".

I'm delighted that Mrs. Cranky Yankee (MA FAZOO) and I have met all of you

If someone who sings Sea Chanteys for entertainmnent or even to coordinate work where someone else is in charge, refers to themselves as being "Chanteymen", THEN, WHAT DO YOU CALL ME? (never mind your first answer)

Love and kisses

(Mr) Jody Gibson Newport, Rhode Island


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 01:35 PM

Welcome folks. Memories of Newport are forever mingled with a lobster pot dinner I had there. And that's a good thing!


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 01:04 AM

Bruce, sorry, I don't think I've ever been to Omaha. (Maybe went through it on vacation as a very young child, but, that won't count.) It's just a suggestion for The Moving National Capital City fantasy I have; I think those guys lose touch in DC and ought to be sent somewhere new after each presidential election. Get 'em back to confronting reality and turn DC into a political theme park -- see, we're halfway there already!

Cranky Yankee, what a delight your posts are. Your complete "Star Spangled Banner" reminded me it was the first thing I ever recited, back in third grade. Me da helped me learn it, down to putting feeling into it instead of just "da-da, da-da-da, da-da-da-da-da-da, etc." Taught me a lot about reading and understanding poetry, he did, with that song. In fact, the thing he did first was have me write it out as if it were prose. I guess that's why your post, without the line breaks, made me think of it. So thanks for that.

So, even if we're stuck in some mezzo soprano key at the ball game, now we can at least appreciate its history, and smile to ourselves..."I wonder who else here knows we're singing a folk song...?"

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson at work
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 01:37 PM

WOW! The expertise here on Mudcat really blows me away some times. Now I know where to go for advice on sailing. . . the man who was teaching me, 30 yr ago, to sail drowned in a boating accident, which kinda soured me on the whole idea.
last weekend wound up doing a Historical Society gig (in Revolutionary War costume) and remembered to take off my digital wristwatch, but, as always happens, we were asked "can you sing the Star Spangled Banner?" and of course we grinned and said SORRY, it hadn't been written yet! But we can sing you the old words to the same tune. . .
Green Hills of Earth. . . has anybody ever written a tune for it? Maybe we do need a Planetary National Anthem. . . the Jamaican "One Love" might be a good place to start (me ducks)


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 02:06 PM

I think that national anthem should be, This land is your land or If I had a hammer.

Tom


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 08:16 AM

I know that I fly off the handle now and again, but that's just me.

So if I've offended anyone then I'm sorry.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Dunc
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 02:44 PM

I'm sure I was not the only non American to go through a large part of my life thinking that there was a US coastal town / city called Donsellee.
It had to be on the coast 'cause it had a light house.
It had to be famous 'cause it featured in the American National Anthem....

...."by the Donsellee Light".

I'm just a simple Scotsman and it was an easy mistake to make.
Tell me that I'm not alone in making that mistake.
Please tell me...


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 04:16 AM

Dunc, the American comedian Bill Dana, in his character of "Jose Jimenez," said that when he went to his first baseball game, he was touched that everyone was concerned that he should have a good view, because just before the game started, everyone stood up and said, "Jose, can you see?"

-chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 05:53 AM

Jose, can you see
By the Donsellee Light...

I like it!


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 08:40 AM

Oh I forgot to mention that if it wasn't for the Scots who signed the declartion of independance then America would still be under the English yoke.

I thought I would mention that.

John Paul Jones came from Scotland, and more than half of the men who signed the declertion were Scots.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Fiolar
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 11:39 AM

Methinks you jest. Of the 56 signatories of the Declaration 48 were born in what was to become the United States. Of the other eight, two were born in England, three in Ireland, two in Scotland and one in Wales. To call half the signatories "Scots" is stretching things a bit.It may be that the ancestors of some of them were of Scottish origin but that is a different kettle of fish. I am Irish but my son who was born in England regards himself as British and hold a passport to that effect.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 04:06 PM

busbitter, a lot of us in the U.S. have Scottish ancestry. So if you're trying to cut 'Americans' down with that one, you're wasting your time. It just doesn't wash.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 05:43 PM

I was going to saying something about 'cutting Americans and other nations down' but what's the use anyway, if you think that's what I'm doing then fine however I'm not and I never wanted to do cut anyone down.

I thought I might give you some facts about America that you might not have read about.

So this will be my last message because I feel like I'm losing the battle here because it seems whenever I write anything some people get the wrong idea.

I might not as smart as some people but at least I try.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: GUEST,Sailor Dan
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 09:25 PM

Well lets see, I think we may have blasted everything and everyone in the world and have named 36 different songs to replace the Star Spangled Banner, We have gotten a lot of history about numerous things, I havent been to all of the states or all of the countries, I havent met everyone or explored whats behind everyones ideas of what america is, isnt, was, wasnt, should be or shouldnt be.

I am Catholic now, was born a Jew and Bar Mitzvahed. My heritage is Irish, Polish, German, and are filled with Priests, Rabbi's, Cantors and Nuns. My immediate family is combined Caucasian, Oriental and African. They are republican, democratic and liberal, they are Yankees, Southerners Westerners, Easteners. There is a Lady that stands in NY harbor that says "give me your tired your poor, etc.

My vote for a song that should be the American National Anthem, is the one that starts off "This is My Country"

Just remember life isnt fair and isnt served on a silver platter and I wouldnt go around opening the closed closets of all countries.

THIS IS MY COUNTRY ...............


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 01 May 01 - 12:59 PM

ok then


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 01 May 01 - 01:01 PM


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Subject: ADD Verse: Star Spangled Banner^^
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 08:03 PM

Copied from a message posted by Cranky Yankee in the FAQ.
-Joe Offer-
The Star Spangled Banner, for one, is in the digitrad. However, it does not contain the third verse(not uncommon in the U.S.) The third verse ties everything together providing the continuity that this great piece of literature otherwise lacks. Here it is.

THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER (also, "The defence of Ft. McHenry)
words by Francis Scott Key..Melody by John Stafford Smith

III
Now where is the foe who so vauntingly swore,
Midst the havoc of War and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country they'd leave us no more.
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling or slave,
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave.
And, The Star Spangled Banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
.
Furthermore, the last , or fourth, verse does not end with a repeat of the last two lines of the third verse. It ends thusly:

And the Star Spangled Banner in triumph shall wave
WHILE the land of the free IS the home of the Brave.

Source: The Scottish Students' Song Book
Published for the Song Book Committee: of the Students'Representative councils of Scotland. by Bayley & Ferguson: 14:Paternoster: Row: London. C 1891. (that's the way it was punctuated)

Jody Gibson^^


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Subject: ADD: Star Spangled Banner correction^^
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 08:15 PM

OK, here's the correction I propose to submit to the Digital Tradition. The words of the first three verses are exactly what I found in the Army-Navy Hymnal from the Government Printing Office (give or take a contracted word spelling like heav'n), which I consider to be a fairly reliable source. I think it's quite possible that Jody's third verse was written by Key, but that it was not accepted by the U.S. Congress as part of the official national anthem. Can anybody give documented proof of the official version of the anthem, and of any other verses Key wrote?
So, who gets attribution for the tune?
-Joe Offer-
THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER
(Francis Scott Key)

Oh, say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
Oh say, does that star spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep
As it fitfully blows half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected, now shines on the stream;
'Tis the star spangled banner! Oh long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Oh, thus be it ever, when free men shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation.
Blessed with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land
Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto, "In God is our trust!"
And the star spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Source: Army and Navy Hymnal, U.S. Government Printing Office, 1942.
The hymnal attributes the tune to John S. Smith, 1775.
"Heart Songs" (1909) attributes the tune to Samuel Arnold.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
Our national anthem was written by Frances Scott Key during the
attack of the British on Fort McHenry, September 13, 1814. Key
had gone out from Baltimore to the British fleet to obtain the
release of a friend, held prisoner. Her arrived on the eve of
the bombardment of the city by the British, and was detained on
his own vessel lest the plans of the attack be disclosed. All
day an night he watched the battle anxiously from the deck. When
morning dawned and showed the Stars and Stripes still floating
over the fort, he was deeply moved and quickly wrote the words of
the poem. They were later set to the tune of an old English
drinking song, "Anacreon in Heaven," a song widely sung in this
country at that time.

Here is a seldom-used third verse that is reputed to have been written by Key. If this verse is used, the final (fourth) verse is the one that begins, "Oh, thus be it ever..."

Now where is the foe who so vauntingly swore,
Midst the havoc of War and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country they'd leave us no more.
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling or slave,
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave.
And, The Star Spangled Banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Furthermore, the last, or fourth, verse does not end with a repeat of the last two lines of the third verse. It ends thusly:

And the Star Spangled Banner in triumph shall wave
WHILE the land of the free IS the home of the Brave.

Source: The Scottish Students' Song Book
Published for the Song Book Committee: of the Students'Representative councils of Scotland. by Bayley & Ferguson: 14:Paternoster: Row: London. C 1891. (that's the way it was punctuated)


@patriotic
filename[ STARSPAN
DC

^^
Click here for the Star-Spangled Banner site at the Smithsonian Institution.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 08:35 PM

From the Smithsonisn Website.
-Joe Offer-
Complete version of "The Star-Spangled Banner" showing spelling and punctuation from Francis Scott Key's manuscript in the Maryland Historical Society collection.

O say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight
O'er the ramparts we watch'd were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bomb bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there,
O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore dimly seen through the mists of the deep
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream,
'Tis the star-spangled banner - O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash'd out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

O thus be it ever when freemen shall stand
Between their lov'd home and the war's desolation!
Blest with vict'ry and peace may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the power that hath made and preserv'd us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto - "In God is our trust,"
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.


This is the first known printing of Key's poem. Called a broadside, it was probably printed in Baltimore on Sept. 17, 1814. It once belonged to Judge Joseph H. Nicholson, who was married to Key's wife's sister.
Defence of Fort McHenry

The annexed song was composed under the following circumstances -
A gentleman had left Baltimore, in a flag of truce for the purpose of getting released from the British fleet, a friend of his who had been captured at Marlborough.--He went as far as the mouth of the Patuxent, and was not permitted to return lest the intended attack on Baltimore should be disclosed. He was therefore brought up the Bay to the mouth of the Patapsco, where the flag vessel was kept under the guns of a frigate, and he was compelled to witness the bombardment of Fort McHenry, which the Admiral had boasted that he would carry in a few hours, and that the city must fall. He watched the flag at the Fort through the whole day with an anxiety that can be better felt than described, until the night prevented him from seeing it. In the night he watched the Bomb Shells, and at early dawn his eye was again greeted by the proudly waving flag of his country.

Tune - Anacreon in Heaven.

O! say can you see by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming?
And the Rockets' red glare, the Bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our Flag was still there;
O! say does that star-spangled Banner yet wave,
O'er the Land of the free, and the home of the brave?

On the shore dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream,
'Tis the star-spangled banner, O! long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country, shall leave us no more?
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave,
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,
O'er the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave.


O! thus be it ever when freemen shall stand,
Between their lov'd home, and the war's desolation,
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the Heav'n rescued land,
Praise the Power that hath made and preserv'd us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto--"In God is our Trust;"
And the star-spangled Banner in triumph shall wave,
O'er the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:03 AM

Cranky Yankee has it right when he protests the hyphenation now increasing in the States. Living in Canada, with two official languages, taxpayer-supported separate schools for Catholics and Protestants (and now all of the other religious persuasions are getting into the act), Indians and others competing over fishing and hunting rights (Indians are hunting out of season and ignoring limits), etc., etc., I see a divided country where political correctness is rampant. If that is a confused sentence, that is what present conditions here make me- confused. By the way, Cranky Yankee may be interested in the Univ. Toronto poetry site, where Fort M'Henry is referred to and The Star Spangled Banner is linked to The Stars and Stripes Forever in the heading to Francis Scott Key's poem.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: toadfrog
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:02 AM

Joe: To answer your question, the tune is attributed to John Stafford Smith, who seems to have composed it for the Anacreon Society. Click also here, for corroboration. And for a short explanation, clack. Yet another site states that it was probably a joint work of members of the Anacreon Society, under Smith's leadership. (Sorry, forgot the clickie for that one. But here's another, just for luck, CLUCK. Actually, that's an interesting browse, looking for "Anacreon in Heaven" on the web!

I had believed that the third verse was dropped from the Natl. Anthem to keep the British happy, but this official-looking site gives proof through the note that our verse is still there!

Conclusive Proof! The third verse is part of the official Nat'l Anthem. The web site of the American Embassy to the United Kingdom says, "Their blood has wiped out their foul footsteps' pollution,"-right out in front of God and everybody! Either the Brits have a wonderful sense of humor, or they never noticed!


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Shields Folk
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 06:54 PM

Being late for the last two world wars is the reason Americans spend so much money on armaments. They want to be bang on time for the next one.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: CapriUni
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:37 PM

I found the full lyrics to this tune yesterday... Amazing how few Americans even know all the lyrics to the first verse...

Now if I may put on my "Poetry Critique" hat (It's purple, with tassles, by the way):

I really like the second verse. The details he chose -- the mists of the ocean, the dim light, the breeze -- all paint a clear picture of one man's perspective, and show, first, his anxiety and then, his relief.

The third and fourth verses, however, leave me cold. In both of these, he sinks into boasting and propaganda. He may, considering his experiences, have been entitled to these feelings. But boasting and propaganda make weak poems.

"Show, don't tell."


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 03:17 PM

The Star-Spangled Bummer, an article in the wonderful NY Times Disunion series on the Civil War, discusses attempts in 1861 to come up with a national anthem, and, in particular, to generate new candidates for one other than "Yankee Doodle," or "Hail, Columbia" or the "Star-Spangled Banner", which were all popular at the time. They were not successful.

The article concludes by saying, "In 1931, as the Great Depression again tested the country's resolve, the 'Star-Spangled Banner' was signed into law as America's official national anthem."

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: kendall
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 03:55 PM

Never argue with someone whose opinion you don't respect.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 10:23 AM

On the other hand in order to have a decent argument you've got to have someone who has a different view of things. Not hard round here...


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 06:09 PM

The action of Congress in calling "The Star-Spangled Banner" the national anthem was not the result of any deliberation or contest. It was merely the ratification of what everybody knew. Long before (e.g., during W.W. I), people were beaten up for not standing when it was played.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 06:14 PM

Joe, good for you! I am a pacifist and democratic socialist too and I feel as American as any other in this country. I second your emotion.

Our tradition of folk music grew up in the time of Popular Front in the U.S., folklorists,
musicians, getting interested in "people's"music, songs of the working-class, labor movement, agrarian music from Appalachia, African-America, pockets of ethnic communities from other countries and it all came of interest because of the Left wing, who endorsed it, nurtured it and gave it credence so that it could finally become used by institutions such as Mudcat.

The academics in music departments began to see its value as a result. The historians, anthropologists, ethnomusicologists and folklorists were made aware of the value of this expression of music principally because it was nurtured by the Left.

Alan Lomax, Pete Seeger, Ken Goldstein, Archie Green, Woody Guthrie, Bess Lomax Hawes, Josh White, Burl Ives, Leadbelly, Florence Reese, Hazel Dickens, and others regardless of how they ended up politically, they all got their start in the Left Wing Movement's embrace of American folk music.

And they weren't all Marxists or Communists, either.

Today, much of the Left has been co-opted by a gauzy "liberalism" and the songs that have content have been forsaken for a safe singer/songwriter genre, in mho. The "protest singer" has become corporatized, commercialized and trivialized.

A national anthem should be powerful enough to bring tears to the eyes when being sung as it is in other countries that have had to overcome oppression and dictatorship.
I think America the Beautiful, the other verses that are not generally sung, come close. It's significant that every school child all over the world pretty much knows
"This Land is Your Land".

Woody wrote "This Land" in reaction to Irving Berlin's "God Bless America". Berlin called his song at the time of its creation, a peace song. I don't think Berlin would have liked how it's being used today by these pseudo-patriotic political hacks.

A national anthem should show the struggle of America to achieve democracy through Civil Rights, Labor Unions, Women's Rights, Child labor rights, Free speech, Anti-war demonstrations and not a paean to military violence, munitions, and big monied corporate interests.

We don't need a contrived pop song such as "I'm proud to be an American" by Lee Greenwood. When I hear that song, I feel violated as an American.

Without bombs bursting in air which will keep the US from becoming the land of the free and the home of the brave, I hope that a national anthem will some day emerge and be sung by Americans as an authentic anthemic expression of true American values mentioned above.

There are a lot of songwriters out there today to make it happen.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 06:38 PM

I can't imagine anyone in Britain having the least concern about anything in anybody's national anthem. Dom peolle anywhere worry about that kind of thing?


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