Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: The Dane Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:43 PM As I see it, America is the combination of the best and the worst. I used to hate the place years back - thought Americans were all stupid, ignorant hillbillies. Then I met some... they turnes out to be the greatest people on earth... met some other Americans - total ass holes... But anyway, I wen't to the States - although I promissed myself I would never go – and this is what i found: It's a place of opportunity and wealth - for some people anyway - and a place of poverty...both literaly and intelectually. And I could go on and on... But what I mean is: Don't slag off the States and don't make it look like paradise on earth. It's neither of those. As is the case for most places, the truth about America is more complex than that! Jacob |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Greg F. Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:54 PM Well, Sarah, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this 'un. You must have studied a different version of history than I did- you wouldn't be a Texan by any chance, would you? :-) Think its safe to say that slavery was an "economic reason"-no? What's styled "propaganda" often depends on which side of the issue you find yourself .As an example, the "Phillipine Insurection" mentioned above was an effort by the Filipinos to repulse American invasion and colonization of the islands. And please climb down from the the patronizing "Norte-Americanos" bit. I'm on your side, and that battle has already been fought several times in this forum. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Irish sergeant Date: 05 Mar 01 - 01:05 PM Tom: Please do not think that I was implying you don't have the right to your opinion. Nothing could be further from the truth. Thank you for your apology. I'll be the first to admit that my country has it share of problems. I wanted a level playing field. This discussion is about a song. It happens to be our national anthem and it speaks to what every citizen of the United States (Nortes to our Hispanic citizens of the Western Hemisphere)hopes this country will be. We are a young country as nations go, so if we seem like brash upstarts, maybe we are. But there is also a generosity in my people that cannot be denied. -The American people spent their tax dollars to help rebuild Europe and Asia after the second world war. Not just to benefit our allies but our former foes as well. -When the puppet governments of Romainia, Croatia etc. declared war on the U.S. in that conflict, the U.S. ignored them. -American dollars and volunteers can be found helping out at most if not all natural disasters that occur. -We still remain a haven albeit an imperfect one for refugees from throughout the world. Our borders are the easiest in the world to access of any. By the way, Scotland is considered a nation. The Scots have their own parliament and judicial system even if they don't have a seat in the United Nations. To explain my position, Tom, I took offense at the remarks about the land of the brave. I have lost friends in Vietnam, Greneda, Lebenon and the Persian Gulf. I have had relatives fight in World War s One and two, Korea, Vietnam, during the Cuban Missle crisis, and I myself was in the Gulf War. Again, I accept your apology and I thank you for it. My choice would be America the Beautiful if the government ever decides to change the anthem. Kindest reguards to all of you, Neil |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Fiolar Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:06 PM Several years ago I used to pass a house on my way to work which had painted on the gable "Yanks Go Home." I used to wonder what kind of a pathetic idiot would do such a thing. However when the "Yanks" finally did go home there was much "weeping and gnashing of teeth" as the local economy took a nosedive and many houses were left empty and tradesmen saw their profits drop. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: GUEST,Carol's Friend Don Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:35 PM |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:39 PM By this logic, Canada, Brazil and Australia are also Empires, since the territory of their countries consists of land annexed from indigenous peoples. I'd see no reason not to call them empires as well. The word empire doesn't in itself imply tyranny or genocide etc, any more than it implies benignity - the word just means a set up where a central government holds together an assembly of disparate states. For example, the United States.
I still find it strange that Americans seem so sensitive about this kind of stuff. It's like those stories about elephants being frightened by mice. A standing invitation to any mouse who's feeling a bit low to say "I know, I'll go out and frighten an elephant, that always cheers me up." (And please note I'm not recommending that any mice do that - it's both dangerous and unkind.)
Drop the Star Spangled Banner because it's too difficult to sing, in favour of America the Beautiful? I'd call that dumbing down. Better to learn to sing it properly. I suppose the French could drop the Marseilleise and sing Frere Jacques instead. But they won't. (If you can't hit the high notes in a song, simple enough, just sing them low instead.) |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Sarah2 Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:42 PM Greg, Yes, I live in Texas now. It's history is fascinating, and much more complex than you seem to understand. I'm only saying that to sweepingly lump the "acquisition" of Texas with the Mexican War is off. In fact, it's sort of looking at it backwards. Texas rebelled in 1835-1836, joined the U.S. in 1845 from the status of a free Republic, and the Mexican war was begun and ended in 1846. Texas, then a state, had a lot to do with the U.S. engaging in that war, of course: Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna kept sending troops north of the Rio Grande. The U.S., having accepted Texas into the union, was bound to defend its borders. If the Mexican War was a war of imperialism, then why isn't Mexico a part of the United States? Hell, they took Mexico City. Texas history is something I'm still studying, as it is all around me, in museums and libraries and private collections. What one gets in the schools is the bare bones of history, no matter the subject -- and it's not always so very accurate in its assessment of the motives behind events. Sure, slave ownership was probably one of the "economic issues," but there were more, many more Mexican-owned slaves than Anglo-owned. Like much of the U.S., Texas was initially sought out for "a new start" by people who weren't "making it" back in their home states from the Anglo point of view. The entire Anglo population of Texas at the time of its rebellion was under 35,000 -- and there were a LOT of women and children in that number. The fact that Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna had overthrown the legitimate Mexican government and established a dictatorship in Mexico would have had more to do with armed rebellion than an issue that might have otherwise been solved in the Mexican courts and legislature. As for my being patronizing, sorry if you feel that way. I thought we were just trying to thrash out some facts, and I suppose that living next door to another American country makes me more sensitive on a daily basis to their feelings on the matter than others may be. Sarah |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Lonesome EJ Date: 05 Mar 01 - 03:03 PM McGrath- perhaps our difference on the "empire" question is primarily semantic. I associate the word with forcible conquest and annexation, as for example the Alexandrian and Roman Empires of ancient times, or the British Empire of late, and perhaps also the Third Reich. I also tend to think in terms of Monarchies or Dictatorships when the word "empire" comes up. If you view an Empire as a large nation-state with world balance-of-power overtones, I might agree that the US is one. Brazil might be stretching it. Personally, I think there should be a better term to describe Super States (and no, I don't like that one either) in the 21st Century that isn't quite so redolent of colonialism and conquest. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: GUEST,Carol's Friend Don Date: 05 Mar 01 - 03:05 PM NOTE to Greg F: Ref: the "Philippine Insurection". Noting your point about propaganda, I must point out that the insurrection had nothing to do with the Filipinos throwing off American rule. Far to the contrary, the Filipinos were, at that point, quite happy to be out from under Spains rule (Remember the Spanish-American War was only 12 years before). The Moslems wanted their own island nation and committed some Taliban type "inducements" (i.e. disemboweling infidels, which might be seen as "religious freedom" to some). While this might seem like American Imperialism, which may have mattered to some of the Filipinos who actually knew we were there ( i.e. a backward island nation with no communication except poor roads and dugout canoes) the Japanese changed all that some 25 years later by disemboweling everybody. A good book on the American perspective of this is "American Guerilla in the Phillipines", (I don't remember the author) published in the 1950's. Those Filipinos who rejoiced at the defeat of the Americans at Corregidor, became part of the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, and didn't live long enough to regret it. But I digress... |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Sarah2 Date: 05 Mar 01 - 03:20 PM That's okay, GUEST CFD, you can find a lot of digression above. I confess to being part of it: damned little of this thread has much to do with the original post! We've got several topics going and Art and Spaw striking in with the laughs now and then. Just like a mudcat party somewhere...politics, histories, music, general philosophy and an overall interesting thread. Sarah |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: TamthebamfraeScotland Date: 05 Mar 01 - 04:48 PM I accept your remarks, and I never said that All americans were evil, we have evil people here in Scotland as well, so I don't know where you lot get this idea that I think that all Americans are evil, there are some good American out as well. As for the song, I think that you should have some type of song like If I had a hammer, or This land is your land, or that type of song. A song about brotherhood. Goodbye Tom Hamilton |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: mousethief Date: 05 Mar 01 - 04:52 PM Thanks, Tom. If we ever need your advice on your national bird, or on the design of our currency, we'll phone you. Alex |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: mousethief Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:00 PM Sorry; I meant OUR national bird. Bad fingers. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: TamthebamfraeScotland Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:04 PM I never said that all americans were evil, I really don't beleive that for one minute, You have great and good people in America as well. As we do here in Scotland. However if you want to think that this is my view of all aAmericans then I'm sorry you're wrong. I'm just an ignorant person from Scotland, and what I'm saying what I've read in the papers or heard on the news here in Scotland. As for starting a 'flame war' I never did want to start a flame war. I just wanted to put my on opinions down, and if you think that I'm a racist, then I'm a racist. And I'm sorry for that however that's the way that I was brought up. That's the way some of us think in Scotland, we don't have your political correctness ideals as you do over there. I just want to be treated as a human being and not the scum that you think I am. Tom Hamilton I just beleive in tell the truth as I see it.
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Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Jeri Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:13 PM Where we got the idea...please re-read your first post and think about who you meant by "you." It's fairly clear to me you were talking about all of us - I don't think I misunderstood. You did it again in your last post - "so I don't know where you lot get this idea..." Who, specifically, were you talking to? |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Jeri Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:18 PM Tom, it's not "political correctness." I think maybe you haven't run into much prejudice and may not understand it. At least I hope that's the case. You said "I just want to be treated as a human being and not the scum that you think I am." That's what I should have written in reply to your first post. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Greg F. Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:19 PM No problem, Sarah- never claimed to be an expert on Texican History, so I've got some brushing up to do. Truce in the meantime? If the Mexican War was a war of imperialism, then why isn't Mexico a part of the United States? Believe it had a great deal to do with the Wilmot Proviso & the northern & Free Soil & Abolition elements' opposition to acquisition of additional territories south of "Mason and Dixon's Line" where slavery could be extended. Even 'American Imperialists' aren't always entirely successful! :-) Best, Greg |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: TamthebamfraeScotland Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:21 PM I never said that all Amercans were Evil, I think that most of you lot are great guys, if I have upset the American nation by saying the things I said then I'm sorry. Please don't think that I'm a racist, it's the way that here in Scotland that's the way that some of us were brought up. I'm just an ignorant man and I don't know better, maybe I should just shut up and say nothing against Americans or any other country, because they will take offence as well. TO ALL AMERICANS EVERYWHERE I AM SORRY I just say the truth the way I see it. I just blurt out without thinking, I din't mean to start this flame war, as someone put it, I just wanted to say what I felt at the time. And obvious this has upset all Americans, I know I'll just stop writing now because all I'm doing is digging a great big hole for myself. So I'll see you I hope in the future, and I think that your counrty is great. I don't think that I'm greater than you lot. I not and never will be. So it's good bye from me Tom Hamilton |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Jeri Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:27 PM Tom, if this was just one big misunderstanding, forget it. Perhaps we can all learn something from it. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: TamthebamfraeScotland Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:36 PM thank you jeri |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: TamthebamfraeScotland Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:39 PM Thank you for that message Jeri. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: TamthebamfraeScotland Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:40 PM Thank you for understanding what I was saying Jeri Tom |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Jeri Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:42 PM Feel free to PM me if you really don't understand why people got so upset. (It wasn't about you insulting America - we Americans do that all the time.) I don't bite. I'm also a lot better at explaining how I feel about things than arguing about them. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: mousethief Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:54 PM Jeri, let us all know. I don't understand why *I* get so upset about it. But I do. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Jeri Date: 05 Mar 01 - 06:17 PM It's being seen as a thing instead of an individual. It's prejudice - judging people based on how you think they are instead if finding out how they really are. It's thinking that people who possess one particular quality all have great rhythm and like fried chicken, or maybe they like to drink a lot and eat potatoes, or maybe they all swagger, carry guns and think they own the world. It's about not seeing me as Jeri, who lives in a small town in New Hampshire, plays fiddle and who did NOT vote for George Bush, but seeing me as a stereotypical American. When busbiter wrote "And then you go and tell other governments who to run their countries, when you lot had slavery, and you still in some parts of the ones who want to bring back slavery to your country," he was talking to me, and every other American reading the message. I've never told a government how to run their country. My government may have, but not me. I also had no more responsibility for slavery than anyone else alive today. I can't make the KKK and skinheads go away, and I sure as hell didn't create them. So I hear "you" and I assume he's talking to me, and blaming me for all those things. Busbiter didn't upset the American nation - he upset me - Jeri, who lives in New Hampshire, plays fiddle and didn't vote for Bush. I get upset because I want to be treated like a human being, and I get irritated when I'm treated like a nameless thing in a big lump called "Americans." |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: mousethief Date: 05 Mar 01 - 07:07 PM That sounds right, Jeri. Thanks for articulating it for us. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Jeri Date: 05 Mar 01 - 07:34 PM Whoops - my apology for continually spelling busbitter's name wrong. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Mar 01 - 07:59 PM Busbitter me lad..........I think that though Jeri phrased some of this quite well, it is incumbent upon me, Spaw, who farts a lot and lives in a small town in Ohio, that Jeri, who plays fiddle and lives in a small town in New Hampshire, does bite. Since everything else seemed to be cleared up I felt it was important to get this out too. Spaw |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:00 PM I still say that if I was an American, I'd get much more pissed off at people mangling a fine national anthem than getting upset and taking personally generalisations about my country.
If someone says something rude about me and it's true, I've no right to get upset about it. And if it's not true, it's not really about me, and I've no reason to get upset. I might want to set the record straight, but that's a wholly different thing.
Generalisations and stereotypes about other countries are always going to be largely false, whether they are flattering or insulting. And the impression I've got is that Americans are just as prone to make them as anyone else. I really don't think most of us give a damn when they do, but maybe that's a generalisation too far. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: mousethief Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:04 PM Golly, McGrath, too bad we can't all be as well-adjusted as you are. Tell me again what brand of Scotch you drink? |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: RedCelt Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:23 PM and now for something completely different... If anyone reads this far down... At NTIF this last weekend, I heard someone sing a song that they say was the original tune to the Star Spangled Banner. It was a british drinking song that referred to the twining of Bacchus and Venus and seemed to be concerned with combining two great pastimes.. drinking and whoring learning that our founders were more human every day... Jeff |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Sarah2 Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:25 PM (Ya know, what really ticks me off is typing up a message, hitting submit, and having AOL disconnect me. Geez!) busbitter, Don't carry it around: Apology accepted, for my part. In fact, I can see how, read one way, the words of "The Star-Spangled Banner" could be heard as sounding arrogant indeed. If you'll cruise back over some of the posts, you'll find a lot of people, even here, don't think it's the best choice for a national anthem. (Me, I don't like the range it calls for, as there ivariably seems to be a thinning of the voices in any crowd when they're asked to hit those high notes on the line you dislike. And, of course, it always seems to be played in a key that calls for a mezzo-soprano to reach those notes. I tend to think of the lyrics as the expression of an ideal, something we struggle to attain, so they don't bother me.) But I would ask you, please, to start to read your papers with a more cynical eye: they're written by people with their own agendas, papers are -- and God alone knows what some of those agendas are, beyond promoting "good copy." They do seem to love to sterotype us all. If I were to rely on the papers and news media for all my information about other areas of the world, I'd assume that Jeri lives in an industrial hellhole that stretches from the seacoast of Maine to Chicago; that Alex, being from the Northwest, keeps a chainsaw in the shed to cut down ancient redwoods in his spare time and dines on spotted owl. As I am in Texas, we can conclude that I can't read, let alone write, and am obviously having this typed by some visiting New Yorker who has taken pity on me. And you, a Scot, must steal cattle for a living, keep sheep and are dour and penny-pinching -- and you have one two-lane road running the length of Scotland. None of which is true. (Well, Alex might...no, no, surely not!) Anyway, we all fire off something now and again that raises hackles and gets someone's ire up. You've taken it well: Come home; all is forgiven. Sarah P.S. Greg, were we quarreling? Of course "truce," you imperialist swine! |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Irish sergeant Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:33 PM Tom: Hopefully you read my above last in the frame I meant it in. I accept your apology and I believe you mistated a bit. In that I mean you may not have been as clear as you might have wished. Jeri Articulated my feelings better than I did I think. I apologise for that and offer my hand in friendship. Kindest reguards, Neil. PS The Mexican War started in 1846 and went to 1848. As stated above, Texas was a free republic and had been since 1836. Also as provisioned by the Treaty of Guadaloupe, Mexico was paid not only for California but for the areas encompassing New Mexico Arizona and Nevada. The war began as a border dispute namely over wheither the Rio Grande or the Nueces River was the border. Mexico had been approached dipolomatically before the incident but had declined U.S. offers to purchase the disputed areas mentioned above. Kindest reguards, again, Neil |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: mousethief Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:43 PM There are no redwoods in the Northwest! The redwoods are down in Californi-yay. We have what we call cedars (they're really a type of cypress) and douglas-firs (which are not firs at all, nor spruces nor pines, but their own genus). See how confusing our local trees are? No wonder the owls are becoming extinct. I do have a chainsaw, but it doesn't work because the oil-delivery mechanism is busted. I have no use for it, but I inherited it from my grandfather (who had no use for it either but that's another question!). Alex |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Sarah2 Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:46 PM Neil, You're right, it did drag on for two years. I stand corrected. Sarah |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:48 PM Maybe it's a pity Flanders and Swann never got round new words for a few National Anthems. But here's what they did write a propos some of the matters touched on in this thread (From this excelent website I found when I went looking for this song):
A Song of Patriotic Prejudice
The English, the English, the English are best
The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
The Scotsman is mean, as we're all well aware
The English, the English, the English are best
The Irishman now our contempt is beneath
The English are noble, the English are nice,
The Welshman's dishonest and cheats when he can
And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much
The English are moral, the English are good
And all the world over, each nation's the same
The English, the English, the English are best
It's not that they're wicked or natuarally bad
For the English are all that a nation should be, (Perhaps fortunately the song never got round to discussing the Americans...)
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Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Sarah2 Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:48 PM Alex, Please, please stop making those treks to Califonia... Sarah |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: mousethief Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:50 PM Sarah, you've lost me. I haven't made a trek to California for over 13 years, and the one before that was when I was 10 years old. What on earth are you talking about? Alex |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Sarah2 Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:53 PM All those poor redwoods. Sarah |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:01 PM Its OK Alex, just climb back up to the paramilitary compound on the ridge there in the great NW and try to forgive Sarah from Texas, where lip movement is a first indicator of lying. We'll just leave Jeri out of it, living there amongst the tall factory stacks in her tiny worker's shack. Spaw (in Ohio where there is..........uh,.....er,uh........hmmmm.........well crap.......just BLAND NOTHIN'!!!!..........what a drag..............) |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: mousethief Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:07 PM You obviously didn't read my post. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Sarah2 Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:07 PM Spaw, we call that "creative reality..." here. See the Achievable Affirmation thread. Sarah (and her pet New Yorker) |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: mousethief Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:09 PM The paramilitary compounds are in IDAHO, dammit. You people from "back east" are all a bunch of nincompoops when it comes to West Coast geography. Hell, Spaw, just because Ohio is next-door to Maine doesn't mean you have to be an idjit! |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Sarah2 Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:10 PM Alex, I did read it...just that, from the sterotypical understanding, you must be going to California then, so you can take out a few redwoods. Okay, it was weak... Sarah |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:20 PM Hey!!! I got it!! Let's replant some giant redwoods to Montana and bring is a few dirty factories too. But we'll lie and say its all in Idaho and staffed by folks from New York. What the hell was this thread about anyway? Spaw |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: mousethief Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:25 PM Beats the hell out of me. Something about some song, I think. |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Sarah2 Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:39 PM Spaw, Oh, gawd, now my stomach hurts! LOL! Sarah |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Mark Cohen Date: 05 Mar 01 - 11:04 PM Alex, you can't blame the Easterners for getting confused about Western geography. The states are all squares, for gosh sakes! It's like one of those little puzzles where you push the squares around and try to get the numbers in order. They're all interchangeable! Why don't you have nice sensible irregular borders, so the states all stay put? Aloha, Mark (who grew up in Pennsylvania and lived in some of those West Coast states and now lives in Hawaii where the US Government really did annex an independent ally at the bidding of a few rich merchants--in fact, why don't we make "Aloha Oe" the national anthem? Or maybe "I Wanna Go Back to My Little Grass Shack in Kealekekua Hawaii (Where the Humuhumunukunukuapua'a Goes Swimming By)"?) |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: En Date: 06 Mar 01 - 12:35 AM I beg to differ. California is definitely not square. It is quite hip, in fact. Well, maybe just not square: they say someone shook the country and all the loose screws rolled west. The are the nuts and bolts of this great state. In the case of my family, emphasis on nuts. Regarding our national sins: My students are refugees of China, Korea, Tibet, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Central America, and Russia (typical SF area population). We sing America the Beautiful in my classroom every day, right before we discuss the evils and repercussions of slavery, the legacy of Hiroshima, or American domination of indigenous peoples. All this is required by the State of California. Perhaps the world is so familiar with the sins of America because we are so free to admit them, without fear of our government. Admitting one has a problem is the first step on the road to change. Aloha, Mark--I used to live in Aeia, HI--only town in the US whose name is vowels only. --En |
Subject: RE: American National Anthem From: Peter Kasin Date: 06 Mar 01 - 03:34 AM McGrath - It's the considered opinion of many in this country that our national anthem has an awkward melody. As a matter of fact, some music educators refer to it as an example of awkwardness. I disagree that it's no more difficult than the other anthems you mentioned, or that a change to America The Beautiful would be a dumbing down. We sing the Star Spangled Banner every month at our chantey sings, to open the second set. We always have to pitch it very low, so that the high notes can be reached by everyone. My belief is that a national anthem should have a melody that's both interesting - not overly simplified - and easily singable for its citizenry. I think the other ones you mentioned fit that category, as does America The Beautiful. -chanteyranger |
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