Santee School Shots

Subject: Santee School Shots
From: Amos
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 01:49 PM

1. Barky is not a student at the Santana school, which is about 35 miles from our neighborhood.
2. There are no fatalities but 10 or so kids were wounded by a juvenile firing a small-bore weapon from the boy'sroom window out into the quadrangle.
3. The situation is no under control with airlifts of wounded students and one adult complete and SWAT on-site scouring the grounds. Current data is that a lone-wolf student was the sole perp.

Just in case you were worried about us.

A

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Bert
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 01:53 PM

Glad to hear our Barky is safe.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:04 PM

Get your news here first!! Lord lord. I hadn't heard about this one yet. Glad she is safe.......

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:11 PM

I hadn't heard about it, either. Wondered what you were talking about there for a minute. Really glad to hear she is safe. For the latest, which says one of the wounded is critical, please click here.

Thanks, Amos,

kat

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:17 PM

link is broke, kat.

Thanks, Sorcha, I fixed it.
la joeclone

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:21 PM

Try this one. At least one dead, now.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: GUEST,Mike D
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:24 PM

Sad to say that I heard an update that says at least two of the students have died, another 8 wounded. What the Hell are these parents doing (or not doing) to these kids! Pay Attention to them dammit!

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:32 PM

Thanks for the field report, Scoop Cutely.

Now I want to know if that's where our Susan in California teaches, or if she has kids in that school. She's in the general area too.

~S~

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: FOG(Friend of Gnome)
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:02 PM

America wake up!! Your gun laws allow people to carry firearms legally which are purchased easily. How many more high school shootings before you recognise that while the British system may be 'quaint'-less people die. Phil

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:08 PM

Yes, much better for people to die from car bombs and illegal weapons than from legal ones.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:15 PM

Just watching more coverage..................not much to say is there? Shall we say it again anyway? May the families find some comfort somewhere.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: GUEST,Marty D
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 10:29 PM

I usually check here for the music stuff, but this is just so sad, and becoming sooo predictable. Kids are once again killed by kids, and STILL, the moral conservatives argue for legal handguns? What's even more predictable will be the call for more and more prayers tomorrow and the inevitable playing of Amazing Grace. It used to signify something to me, but not since it's become the standard 'after the massacre' song.

These kids knew something was up, and had they imformed the authorities, we'd be bombarded with stories of lawsuits because some kids who were 'different', were being labeled as 'dangerous'. The kids new better, so they said nothing, and this is the result.

Why, why, why, is it so difficult for some to understand that handguns ARE NOT for hunting animals, they are for killing people. If someone can prove to the authorities that they NEED a handgun for self protection, then perhaps exceptions can be legally made, but so often these weapons are simply 'there for the taking'. I'm so sick of all the praying and hymn singing after horrors like these. If only ONE of those clergy had the guts to say 'no more guns'.

Martin Dawson

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 10:32 PM

Yeah, Martin, all we need to do is get the constitution amended. Good luck! That's like finding hens' teeth in a haycock in a blizzard.

And the Little, Co. shooting was done with rifles so the handgun thing is hardly the answer to all our ills.

Maybe if we taught our kids not to pick on kids who are different from them, then there would be less of a chance that people would be pushed beyond their ability to endure, and take out their frustrations fatally.

Nah. Never work.

Alex

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 10:33 PM

Sorry. LittleTON, Colorado.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 10:38 PM

Well said, Spaw...we've said so much before, it leaves one numb after so many and not a change in sight. It will take fundamental changes in our society and I am not at all sure that will ever happen, there is so much polarisation and intransigence.

I hate to see people taking *potshots* at each other, in this thread especially.

Sorrow in my heart and a prayer for all involved.

kat

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: wdyat12
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 10:41 PM

Some kids just lose it when they are treated like turds. Some kids have access to guns when they are treated like turds. Some kids are on bad drugs, but all kids need hugs. Where are their parents when these kids need hugs the most?

wdyat12

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Bert
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 12:00 AM

...Maybe if we taught our kids not to pick on kids who are different from them... You're right on there Alex.

bert.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Susan from California
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 01:18 AM

Just got home from night class (working on the Masters...) I am far enough away that i didn't even hear about this until late tonight. Last week I escorted a minority student to the office after school because we had heard that one of the skinheads from last year was after "D". As I was walking "D" to the office the backway...out a door and across maybe 25 feet of concrete I was thinking, man, we are vulnerable here. Sad that I would EVER have to worry about physical safety at school. So many kids are so wounded. All I can think to do is to help patch them up, and to show by modeling good behavior that there are other ways to deal with conflict.

Gotta grab some sleep.

Sue

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Auxiris
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 07:27 AM

Just as a bit of perspective, when I was in grade school at the end of the 1950s, I remember some kids who were always picking on another kid (who was "different", as you say). One fine day, they were throwing rocks at him while he was walking home and one of the rocks hit him in the eye and he ended up losing his eye. Just goes to show you that violence in and around schools is nothing new it's just changing and escalating.

Aux

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Banjer
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 05:49 AM

I was one of those 'different' kids when I was in elementary and middle school. I was always being picked on because I liked old country music (this was in the sixties, so you can see what 'old country' was back then). All the other kids listened to rock and roll...I was a loner, not given to large crowds. My clothes weren't waht was 'in style' for the day. Mom couldn't afford them for me. Unlike the 'popular' kids I had few friends, but the friends I had were true friends that I could turn to in any need and they could turn too me as well. I guess I selected my friends more carefuly than the popular kids who gathered their following in droves. Because of a pride instilled in me by my mom, I never felt bad about being picked on. I more pitied those who would pick on me and my friends because I knew they would probably never know true friendship. It never crossed my mind that I should do any of my tormenters physical harm. I really believe that my upbringing had a lot to do with the values I held (and still hold) dear. I have quite a few acquaintances, but to this day, those that I call friends in my everyday life number very few!

All this doesn't lessen the severity of the actions of the young trigger man but goes to point out out that what parents teach in the home can go a long way towards preventing needless blood shed. My heart goes out to the victims and their families as well as the young man who now faces a life behind bars, a tragedy all the way around!

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Sarah2
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 10:51 AM

I am sorry as hell about these kids. All of them. But I have to agree with the "Where the hell are the parents?"

The anti-handgun folks do a lot of projecting. Don't need handguns to hunt animals? Well, no, not to go LOOKING for them, but they can afford quick protection from them at close quarters. Has anybody who wants to take my pistol away ever stepped out on the back porch and met a pair of five- or six-foot rattlesnakes in the spring? They're half-blind; they're hungry; they're loaded with venom and mean at that time of year. They are not going to be shy and let me chase them away. I can call Animal Control and hope they arrive before the snakes find some child or neighborhood pet; I can take a hoe and risk my own life going after them. I can get the shotgun out and do damage to everthing around me. Or I can do the logical thing and take them out with two rounds from a .38. I've met coyotes, mean ones, in my own back yard during hard winters, and I live well within the city limits. Never had to kill one, but I've had to wave the pistol at them. They know, believe me, if you're armed or not (smart critters).

The pistol was originally called a "horse pistol" and was designed to kill horses, very popular with cowboys, and still is for the same reason: shooting the horse beats being dragged to death with your foot caught in the stirrup.

You may live in London or New York or L.A. -- and don't feel the need for handgun protection from wild animals. I live elsewhere, and I do. Get yourself laws, fine. But kindly leave mine alone.

Treating the U.S. Constitution as a menu -- "I like this Article, but I don't care for this one, so let's drop it" -- is another matter entirely...

Sarah

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:14 AM

..or maybe if we could re-learn in our culture that there is a fundemental difference between FAME and INFAMY.


If only journalists couldn't SELL newspapers, commercial spots, etc. They wouldn't look for the next sensation at the cost of our better good.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Susan from California
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 09:07 PM

Yesterday, the boy that I was protecting "D" from in a post up there was arrested for making terroristic threats. He was found to have a knife at his school, and when the police went to his home, they found Nazi paraphanaliea (sp). We knew that he was a skinhead last year when he was at our school, and sad to say we weren't able to make a dent. :-(

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 11:43 PM

Fog, most Americans I think are like me. They've have never owned a gun. I had a BB gun when I was 14. I shot a sparrow. I couldn't figure out anything fun or useful to to with a dead sparow. That ended my fasciniation with guns.

Back when I was married I had 3 boys in Boy Scouts and the troop arranged a training session with the local Issac Walton league group. Parental permission was required, and my wife said NO. I told her that just made them want to find out about then, under much worse conditions, and said YES. They did fine, but I don't think they've much more than looked at a gun since( ~20 years)

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 12:44 AM

Ye Gods, I'm tired of this. I'm tired of School Shootings, I'm tired of School Bullying, I'm tired of the US gun laws being blamed for School Deaths, I'm tired of people blaming school deaths on the US gun laws.....

PEOPLE, WAKE UP!!!! Bullies are bullies and weirdos are weirdos. Period. Bullies will bully, and weirdos will kill.

Weirdos that want to kill will find a way to do it, regardless of Gun Laws.......People that are "picked on" will eventually find a way to fight back, whether it's guns, knives, subway rails, or dropping people out of windows. Hells Bells, you could take someones head off with a cafeteria tray if you wanted to.......

We, as a family, got into the definition of "Weapons" when Luke was forbidden to carry "Weapons". You want to ban pencils? A pencil to the juglar vein is quite deadly.....You want to ban wooden rulers? A wooden ruler shoved up under the sternum is quite deadly. A hand chop to the throat is deadly....you want to cut off everybody's hands?

I will grant that guns are a Weapon of Mass Destruction...you can kill your opponent without coming into personal danger yourself, but banning guns is not the answer to this problem.

ANGER MANAGEMENT IS!!! Banning guns is not the answer to bullies and anger.......TEACHING and CONSEQUENCES are! Consequences have always been the answer, but nobody wants to enforce them. This starts at home......if you do A, then B WILL follow......

The more people there are crammed into a place, the more anger there will be.........and guns are simply a method of expressing the anger. See Malthus and his rats. The higher the population density becomes the higher the Anger Crime Rate.

Cripes, I live in a small town of 5,000 and daily I get angry with the traffic..........If I lived in a Metropolis I might just shoot somebody, or push them off the road.

My (our) daughter is 16, and she comes home from school every day angry........about something. She won't take a gun to school though, because we have taught her Anger Management.......and because her brother went to jail for 8 months for lack of Anger Management......Consequenses, people, consequenses.........

If they pay heavily for the minor shit, they may not do the major shit. And Family does matter.

(sorry, off my SoapBox now......)

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: flattop
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 01:06 AM

Jesus Sorcha, you sure know how to empty a cafeteria. I thought the tray was for carrying plastic wrapped processed cheez sandwiches. How could I be so wrong? Guess I should have signed up for a weeks training at the hunt camp for vegetarians.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 01:08 AM

My dad grew up on a cow ranch and never got dragged by a horse, nor did his dad or grandfathers. They carried "six-shooters" in the event that they might have to put down an injured animal. We grew up with horses and were taught from the day we wore shoes that you do NOT get on a horse with your feet in the stirrups, UNLESS you have on boots with proper heels to keep your foot from catching and your being dragged to death. My dad would say anyone stupid enough to do otherwise deserved to be dragged.

I also don't think it very likely that anyone would have the presence of mind nor physical ability to draw a gun and shoot a running horse, while they are being bounced along with one foot in the stirrup.

Sorcha, very good points, but how in the world do we get everyone to comply or understand? It's not going to happen and as long as kids have access we are going to have this problem.

I agree that the media feeds it, to some extent. Still, parents need to take control of their children's exposure to the media, too, so it comes back to what happens at home.

kat

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: flattop
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 01:20 AM

Good image there kat. You seem to be more familiar with horses than you let on the last time we talked about them.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 01:22 AM

flattop, that is just my point, Cafeteria trays are supposed to be used for that.......pencils are to be used for writing (but not Hate Notes), rulers are to be used for straight lines (but not from the sternum to the heart) and guns ARE used for killing (but not in schools or against people........exceptions noted)

ANGER is the problem,not guns.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: flattop
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 01:30 AM

Rather than controlling anger and consequenses couldn't the lessons be on how to enjoy other peoples' company? Don't larger groups of people crammed into smaller places in other societies enjoy each other over coffee and strudel?

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 01:35 AM

fltop, that is part of anger management.....how to enjoy or deal with large groups of people even if you don't like it much........quiet places for strudel and coffee are becoming more and more rare in this world of Muzak and crowds.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: flattop
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 01:40 AM

Before television, other cultures had noise and wine and crowds. Instead of being a problem, that was part of the fun.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 01:45 AM

but not quite so many people, and there were places to "escape" to; not quite so many Escapes now, are there?

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: flattop
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 01:54 AM

I don't know. I though people in several Asian and European cultures had learned to live close together in fairly high numbers.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 02:15 AM

1) Look at the crime rate in Hong Kong........Crimes Against Persons.......maybe a lot more knives than guns but I would guess the ration is higher.
2) Asian Culture generally teaches Inner-ness rather than Outer-ness......European culture stresses Outer ness. And even the Eastern cultures are getting stressed.....look at the Japanese subway stuff.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 02:40 AM

Sorcha - re: your Bullies and Weirdos. I agree, but is a kid who is the victim of intense bullying and who responds a "weirdo?" A lot of chidren are driven to extremes by bullying, and they feel that violence is the only way out. Either to themselves via suicide or to others as we have witnessed too frequently.

All the best.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Auxiris
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 06:08 AM

Hi, flattop. . . I hate to destroy your image of folks in European countries living close together peacefully (and all I can speak of is France, cause that's where I live). I lived in the Parisian area for 9 years, so I think I know what I'm talking about as far as crowding goes. What's known as the "Ile de France" contains something like 12 million people and, believe me, they're not any better at living close together peacefully than anyone else.

I now live in a village of about 180 souls and all I can say is a bit a breathing space makes a lot of difference. It's so much more easy to be calm when you're not constantly agressed by too many people too close together.

cheers,

Aux

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: GUEST,Sarah2, at work
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 08:02 AM

kat, I'm not saying it's a daily thing for a cowboy to be tossed and dragged. But that is one of the reasons they were popularized in the early west. Of course people ought to learn how to mount and ride correctly. I was taught to get my foot out of the stirrup FIRST, if a horse started to throw me, and rely on my knees to try to keep my seat in the saddle.

Killing the horse is not a fun idea -- but you're still going to find cowboys in my area carrying pistols when they're out on the range, especially if they're alone. There are still rattlesnakes and predators to contend with; the possibility of a horse shying and catching you unaware is still there. As for whether or not someone would have the presence of mind -- well, that all runs to opinion. One never knows unless one is faced with it; it might be more of an immediate reaction than a clever thought process. People are different, after all. We get in an urgent situation and one person goes into hysterics while another goes cold and calm and yet another reacts violently.

What I was trying to say, though, is that people's situations are different, and it makes no sense for someone in Manhattan or London to try to project his/her life situation onto someone in Tucumcari, and to legislate survival techniques according to an understanding that takes the tube to work each day and sees wildlife at the zoo. That's one of what I consider the beauties of the Constitution: it takes so much varied life into account, and makes provision to protect the minority -- in this case, we who live in smaller towns on the edge of "civilization" and certainly on the edge of the wild -- from the majority.

I wouldn't change a word of it.

Sarah

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Troll
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 08:48 AM

The "Horse Pistol" was a large, usually single-shot, pistol that was carried in a saddle holster. It was not intended to be carried in a holster on the hip.
Until the days of the revolver men carried horse pistols or pocket pistols, the latter small enough to fit in a coat pocket. The "pepperbox" was the first practical repeater. The cylinder was the barrel and the whole thing rotated with each shot.
Sam Colt's revolver, the "Colt Walker" was a saddle gun. A pair of them were carried by Clint Eastwood in "The Outlaw Josie Wales" as belt guns but that's Hollywood. They were NEVER intended to be belt guns as they are extremely heavy and bulky. They were a military weapon and some vere even fitted with detachable shoulder stocks
It is of interest that the Old West where everyone carried a gun is largely a Hollywood fiction. Most men who carried a gun carried a shotgun or rifle. They are easier to shoot accurately and more practical.
Most towns required a stranger or out-of town visitor to turn in his guns to the sheriff as soon as he hit town. He could collect them when he left.

troll

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Mar 01 - 12:11 AM

Jeesus! Sometimes I feel sooooo lucky. I got pushed around a lot as a kid. Actually when kids upend your briefcase in front of everybody, and you watch all your stuff go all over the floor, it's totally humiliating. If you don't fight back right then (I didn't), that sort of stuff will go on for a long time. I was the (willing) victim of lots of minor stuff, and by the time I was 13, was totally terrified of school. The only time I fought back was when three kids cornered me one night (I had been sent to a private boarding school to get "adjusted") in the school gym. I was so scared, I simply snapped. Talk about a 'primal' scream...I flew at one of them, and all I could think about was tearing him to pieces. At that moment, I wouldn't have cared a whit if I'd died in the process, as long as I killed him. Fortunately he got away and they ran off.

Why was I so "different"? Don't know. I WANTED to belong. My folks tried so hard to help..but I simply couldn't communicate why I was so shy.

As I've mentioned in great detail ad nauseum, I discovered folk music, and the world became a brighter place...but am I ever glad that I didn't have access to a gun that night, cause I would have gleefully used it.

To this day, the 'bully' is my least favourite creature on the planet.

Gun laws will never be changed quickly enough to make a real difference, and teching kids to respect each other is a Hurculean task, considering that the teachers themselves are probably polarized by religion and politics. Is it too much to ask that the media not turn these kids (shooters and shootees) into TV stars?

Rick

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 01 - 12:17 AM

For some thoughts on bringing about peace through education etc., from a child's point of view, albeit a genius child, please see this thread.

Flattop...the difference is, this time we are talking about the right end of the horse!

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Banjer
Date: 10 Mar 01 - 06:12 AM

'and teching(sic) kids to respect each other'

Therein lies the key to the whole matter as I see it. If we can get a kid to respect him/her self then all else will usually fall into place. Help a child find self respect. I have found in working with the high school group (JROTC Honor Guard) that if you can gain their respect, they will respond in kind. Often when there is friction between two of the kids I will counsel each individually about looking past their likes and dislikes and finding something to respect about the other. Once I get them to look in that direction things usually lighten up and the two antagonists become at least tolerant of each other.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: Susan from California
Date: 10 Mar 01 - 12:45 PM

My most important task as a teacher is to teach students to respect themselves and each other. But it is such an uphill battle. The skinhead student that I talked about up there is a prime example of what we are battling. One of his parents is not white. (Amazing, huh.) His parents have made excuses for him since the first grade,everything is somebody else's fault. His parents have no control at all, and when he can easily get drugs from the older ex-con skinhead neighbors, guess who he is going to hang out with? He fully believes that there has to be someone to blame for his families poverty, and rather than look at his dad's unwillingness to work, he looks where he is directed to by his mentors.

Many of my students are told over and over that they are stupid by their parents. I know in my heart that many of them suffer from physical abuse (but don't see anything reportable). One of my students was raped by her stepfather, and Mom can hardly wait for stepdad to be released from jail. Many teachers do the very best thay can, modeling appropriate behavior, teaching simple rules of decorum (like saying excuse me instead of yelling MOVE) and treating students with the dignity and respect that they deserve. But when what they get at home combines with what they see in their own lives and on tv, it seems like we are fighting a losing battle. I feel so discouraged after weeks like this one, but then I have to think about the lesson we did on Wednesday, where we talked about the shootings and the local arrests. We ended the lesson with writing "I can" sentences about how each student can do something to prevent shootings from happening. They came up with some good ones, like "I can be friendly to everyone" "I can quit picking on people" "I can tell bullies that their behavior is unacceptable" "I can support kids who are picked on". One of my gang-banger students wrote "I can NOT bring a gun to school" (Good idea!) I know full well that many of them will forget this lesson by Monday. But I will keep reminding them, and I will keep hoping that something I say will sink in somewhere, sometime.

Subject: RE: Santee School Shots
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 01 - 02:23 PM

Oh, Susan, thank you so much for sharing with us. It must be so difficult. I have one sister who works with Amerindian jr. and sr. high students in Lincoln, NE making sure they have knoweledge and access to all of the resources available. She tells some heartbreaking stories. My other two sisters have also been teachers most of their lives and it has changed so much. I can really sympathise with what you go through.

BTW, if you click on the link I provided upstairs it may give you reason for hope. The extraordinary young man whose website it leads to, is so "for real" and already so active, at 12!, as a genuis whose IQ cannot be measured, in engaging children AND adults from all over to solve these problems.

I was just so pleased with his answer when Oprah asked him what the first thing he would when he become President. He said he would double teachers' salaries. He went to explain why...so that they do not have to work extra jobs to keep their own families living decently; so they are motivated; so they can take the time to work on lesson plans, etc. and give the kids the nurturing environment they need.

Have a look. I know it doesn't do anything directly and immediatelyy for where you are at, but it is uplifting to know this young man is out there and is getting things done.

kat