Our Friend the movable B7 chord.

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:28 PM

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:43 PM

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:46 PM

Roger,

Yours are the first two posts I understand. Thank you.

Steve

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 02:10 PM

You can catch the D note with your pinky on the 2nd string 3rd fret if you want the interval of the fifth in Rick's G variant chord...it then becomes a G7add13.

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 02:54 PM

Okay since we're creeping into other interesting chord formations, I'll toss in one of my favourites - except it isn't "mine". I stole it from Merle Travis. It's a wonderful chord to finish any tune off in the key of E, and it's actually an E6th/13th. (It's the very last chord you'd play in a song in E.)

On the 12th fret, bar with the ring finger, the 1st and second strings. With the index finger, bar all of the strings on the 11th fret, except the 6th string (low E). Leave the low E string open. Now play the chord. Nice eh? (Merle had taste. *G*)

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 06:42 PM

Indeed it is Matt. I'm very familiar with "prologue".

Now cut that out Steve!! Just get out that geetar and start fingerin'!

If you take that chord with "Guest's" addition and move it up five frets, you've got a nice C7.

Rick

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 06:57 PM

WOW RICK!!! I never would have thought you'd known that!! But then again, I SHOULD have known...yer the smartest guitar guru I know!!!

Just on the border of your waking mind
There lies a place
Where darkness and light are one
And as you tread the halls of sanity
You feel so glad you cannot go beyond
I have a message from another time...

Big ice tea glass cheers to you!

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:12 PM

This is all fascinating and excellent stuff. Makes me really feel like introducing my guitars back to normal tuning after all these years to try some of these.

A permathread is a good idea. Maybe we could share some chord tricks too with some other tunings like DADGAD?

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:28 PM

Heck DADGAD, I need Rick to explain to me how a (from low to high) FA#D#G#CC tuning is possible!!!

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:46 AM

Hey guys and gals, good thread after a hard weeks work. I'm just starting to get into open tunings so the first one is open E.

Matt, what kind of tuning is that? Do you need to re-string your guitar?

Martin

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 09:56 AM

Well, I've probably come in past the point of interest but I do so because perhaps the easiest has been omitted,

002200,004400,005500,006600(the previous two you will hear Lightfoot's "Beautiful",007700,009900,00[11][11]00.

knock yourself out with some haunting "new age" music.

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 11:24 AM

Open tunings, open for business, please help! here! yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:22 PM

I'm just starting to get my head and fingers around some of these. Grab, that diminished is a nice sounding chord. Justa, thanks for that 'funny chord'. I've heard Doc play it. As you know I came to Mudcat to try and get into some Doc Watson music and I've found that not all of it is hard. You just have to listen to the people who've already learned it. Then you steal from THEM.

I have a question. WHEN do you substitute these 'fancy' chords for the simple ones that most of us mere mortals know?

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Matt_R
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:34 PM

Whenever you can!!

Ok, since that tuning up there is INSANE, I dropped it down to FADGBB. It's working now. This, BTW is the tuning for Placebo's haunting "Without You I'm Nothing". I can see why they needed they weird tuning...it's definately spooky.

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:39 PM

Marty,
The simplest way to work in a new chord or a new lick/riff/whatever (and what has always worked great for me) is to devise a little song or excerise around the new chord/lick, etc. Then it makes practising and working in the lick or chord, fun.

Once you've accumulated a few alternate ways of playing a given chord, then it's a matter of your ears and own personal taste to decide as to where the substitutions of these "fancier chords" would be appropriate. After a while, you should be able to tell instinctively whether they work or fit, in a given song or chord pattern.

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:49 PM

Blimey, Justa in the flesh!

So if I'm playing something like 'freight train' or 'railroad bill', where is it appropriate to throw in a 'fancy' chord?

Matt, you may be an earthbound entity, but I'm afraid you're light-years ahead of me with tunings like THAT! How long have you been playing?

Martin

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Matt_R
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:58 PM

Well Marty, it was 7 years on January 12th. I started out as a classical guitar player for 5 years, but them when I got here to BIG university, dreams of a classical guitar minor were dropped, so now I'm pretty much steel string all the time, but I still play it like a classical guitar a lot of the time. Not wanting to bust the strings on my steel string, I'm doing the alternate tunings on my dusty, rusty-stringed classical guitar...the very first one I learned to play guitar on. Now I have a good concert guitar for all my classical, but my 2 old ones (and inexpensive, I might add) are gaining a new life as the subjects of wacky tuning experiments. Love those rust stains on my fingers!

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 03:11 PM

Well there's this thing about taste Marty. Freight Train (and Railroad Bill) have a certain intended sound to them, and i.m.h.o. are meant to be played close to the way their originators performed them. That's part of the allure of those tunes. Again, i.m.h.o. it would not be appropriate to "fancy them up" and alter the basic sound and flow of them. I suppose though you could do it just to check out how they'd sound, but you'd be creating something entirely different than what you started out with. Not necessarily a bad thing, just different, and maybe you'd learn a thing or two in the process. Course this altering of songs and putting our own unique imprint or twist on them, is also how one develops their own "style".

On the other hand, if you were playing something like Doc's "Deep River Blues" there's lots of opportunity for playing around with substitutions, as long as you do it during soloing sections. Hell I even wrote a bridge to it, just so it wouldn't become so redundant playing it over and over again. Here is a prime example of a tune you can take and kind of have fun with it. I mean Doc starts out and plays it pretty straight. Then around the 3rd or 4th pass, he introduces some cool cross picking into it (actually reverse banjo rolls) and then brings it back more simply and then out. I often play this tune with a very typical bluesy ending, following by the Merle chord (I described previously in another post) as the final chord of the song. My peers usually say "very nice" when they hear it.

Certain tunes need to be kept simple. Others lend themselves to "fancying up". Experience, growth as a player, getting together with other players and listening to their ideas, are part of the education and evolution, in determining taste and developing an intuitive sense of how far you can stretch the boundaries of a given song. This is how "innovators" are sometimes born. You need to have a sense of what the rules are in order to learn how and when to break them. *G*

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 11:08 PM

Here is an Ab chord form that you can use anywhere on the neck of the guitar. It's pattern is 431111 and it's fingered with a short barre together with the third and fourth fingers on the fifth and sixth strings; the middle finger isn't used. It provides a complete bass line for the chord that comes in handy for thumb pickers. As an example of how the Ab chord is used, I've provided a few bars of "Bye Bye Blues" in tablature form.

This example also serves as an HTML template for sharing tablature in Mudcat threads. Just be sure your editor is set to use a fixed width font and be sure to test it before posting. It will look double spaced when you test but that's okay, Max strips out the hard returns from our posts and adds the proper HTML tags so we won't have to.

      - Mark

Bye Bye Blues

                      C                                   Ab              
  E                |  0              |                 |                 |
  B                |                 |                 |                 |
  G                |                 |  0              |  1              |
  D                |      2       2  |      2       2  |      1       1  |
  A         0   2  |  3              |  3              |  3              |
  E     3          |          3      |          3      |          4      |
  

                      C                                   A               
                   |  0              |                 |                 |
                   |                 |                 |                 |
                   |                 |  0              |  2              |
        1       1  |      2       2  |      2       2  |      2       2  |
    3              |  3              |  3              |  0              |
            4      |          3      |          3      |          0      |
  

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Marion
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 08:06 PM

Mark said:

"You can take the F#7 chord that Rick mentioned ("Take a standard "D" chord...but..play it on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th strings....") but use your second, third and fourth fingers to make it. This will leave your index finger free to add the F# on the bass E string. The A string is damped out by touching it with the index finger. This gives you a great sliding or movable 7th chord."

I like that chord too - actually Willie-O showed it to me - but the only problem is that the high E string isn't accounted for, so it isn't fully movable. But if you finger it like this, it is:

Thumb on 6th string at second fret, and dampening 5th string.
Index barring strings 1, 2, 3, and 4 at second fret.
Another finger (your choice) on 3rd string, third fret.

(an F#7 in this example - the tonic is on the 6th string.)

Another movable 6-string dominant 7th shape is a variation on the Bb6 described in the opening post of this thread.

The tonic is on the fifth string, so for a B7 the spelling would be:

Thumb on 5th and 6th string, second fret.
Ring finger barring strings 1, 2, 3, and 4 on the fourth fret (try pressing down the middle finger right behind it to make it easier).
Pinkie on 1st string, 5th fret.

Marion

PS It's ironic - we're talking about chords that can be slid around sideways, but if you learn enough of them, then you can play all the chords of a song in any position without moving your hands sideways at all...

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: 53
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:44 PM

Play the D chord, then go to the 4th fret and then to the 7th fret for the intro of 8Days aWeek by the Beatles.

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Genie
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:53 PM

Rick,
Years ago I was looking for a chord to go with the "journey" at the end of the second line of "Sentimental Journey," and by experimentation, I discovered a neat chord (some kind of diminished chord) that consists of lifting the entire B7 finger pattern and moving it down one string, so that it uses strings 2 through 6, instead of 1 through 5.
I could take a while and figure out what the chords is, but probably someone out there with more music theory than I have had (nearly anybody, that is) could tell you in an instant.
Whatever it is, it's a really neat, moody sounding chord--and as easy to play as B7.

Thanks for the tip on moving the B7 up the neck!

Genie

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: C-flat
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 02:16 AM

A nice chord to work in with Rick's moveable B7 or rather the flattened9th version with the little finger on the B string is this; 5x566x. Try the B7 shape at the 7th fret then this shape at the 5th, now the B7 at the 5th and the new one at the 3rd, and so on. It's a nice jazz sounding turn-around. I nicked it from Martin Taylor. I always refer to the B7 shape played with the little finger on the B string as the "all purpose Django chord" as he used it all the time. In fact I think he may have been the one who discovered it as, due to his damaged hand, he played mostly in triads. Another way to use the 5x566x shape is to substitute it for an Am in the turn-around sequence; C,Am,F,G. Play barre C(x35553),then 5x566x,now play the B7 shape at 5th fret, then 3x344x for a great jazzy sound.

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Genie
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 02:55 AM

Rick --and guest,
Size does matter. So does joint flexibility.
Not to minimize the importance of improvising, practice, etc., but ceteris paribus longer fingers and the ability to bend a finger backward at one or more joints is a real advantage--and there are some chord positions that are physically impossible for some people's hands.

I know, I know, Segovia had short stubby fingers, and he did o.k. But sometimes folks with reallyshort fingers [even for a woman] and finger joints that bend only one way have to find alternatives to the methods others can use for playing some chords. [I, for one, simply cannot hold down two strings with one finger--except, of course, for the barre finger--unless they are at the edge of the neck.] As "guest" suggests, "these damned wrinkly fingers" sometimes make the theoretically ideal positions rather unattainable.
I love the C9 chord, but I cheat it, holding down only the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th strings, because my fingers are not double jointed. Thus, it sounds fine as a C9 but is not moveable to all positions on the neck.

Mooh and Rick
I really like sliding b7 up to the next fret for a modified C7 and back.

Justa,
I'm gonna have to try that Merle Travis E6th/13th thing as soon as I unpack my guitar tonight.

Genie

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 09:31 AM

Howdy. I've started a continuation thread (thanks to genie's input) here size&flexibility

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Marion
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 12:01 PM

Just have to say this - I think this is yet another thread that has changed my life. I saw it when it was new, and put it aside for another day; I'm really reading it for the first time now.

For the past month or so I've been obsessed with getting a cello and learning to play it, but as I read this thread, that desire almost totally faded away, because this is so cool. I should learn to play the guitar instead!

Marion

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 01:31 PM

Matt Clarke (or anybody)

Anychance of getting that great tune "Bye Bye Blues" in a 5-string banjo tablature ??

It would sound great .

beach

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 12:59 PM

I'm guessing that I am the one beachcomber referred to as “Matt Clarke” since it was I who posted a few bars of the requested tune. Sorry Beach, I don't have any banjo tabs. I don't know whether he ever recorded the tune but I can just hear Don Reno playing that one.

Marion, Nice call on the fingering. I use that fingering too sometimes. I didn't mean to leave the treble E string unaccounted for, that was just an oversight. When I use the four-note chord you saw, I actually damp out the treble E with the root joint of my index finger. The four-note version of the chord is mean to be used with similar four-note fingerings I've posted elsewhere. One can move from a 6th to a 7th to a Maj-7th while holding two fingers and swapping the other two (but not the same two).

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Marion
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 01:13 AM

I was recently organizing my guitar notes, and I discovered that between Mudcat, lessons, and my own extrapolations from other chords, I know eight different ways to play dominant sevenths that are fully movable (i.e. six strings either noted or muted).

Mind you, I'm counting Rick Fielding's 7th chord for masochistic showoffs (see this post)as one of them, but I have some masochistic showoff tendencies myself... and I think seven ways is pretty impressive too.

And I got the cello anyway. There's nothing sweeter than the life of an underemployed musician.

Marion

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: allanwill
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 09:46 AM

That was/is a great thread. Is GUEST still around; I thought his/her input was excellent.

Allan

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 07:22 PM

Well if yer gonna do "The world's hardest masochistic showoff" chord (see Marion's blue clicky) you better grab it while you're young. I just tried it on my reasonably new Martin D-41, and it sounds like total sh*t.

The chord is a joke of course, but I actually USED to be able to play it instantly.

On the other hand, I ALSO used to be able to:

Throw a fastball past the finest Little league batters.

walk ten miles a day (and visit music and pawn shops at the same time)

Remember EVERY cast member of The Great Escape and the Magnificent Seven.

Today I'm happy to be able to finger this G Maj7.

From 6th string.

3X5432

It's a great voicing though.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 07:26 PM

Maybe it works better on a shorter scale length machine, Rick? Say, a 24.75" Gibson?

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 09:35 PM

Rick - Thanks for the tip about hookin' the thumb over to catch the low G on that G Maj7. I had always just played XX5432. The bass note really fills it out, particularly for fingerpicking.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 10:07 PM

I play those 9th chords which are basically the B7 but barre the E, B and G strings. That's a C9 at the second fret,D9 at the 4th,D#9 at the 5th,and E9 at the 6th.
Now take your middle finger from A string and move it to the low E, keeping your short barre, and that sounds nice too, I don't know what that is called though.
I also play a movable C7 up and down the frets.
I like threads like this, thanks Rick and all! I feel like I'm playing right along with you.
Peace, Rustic

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:10 AM

While you're playing the B7 shape on the 6th/7th frets as an E7, you can play another variation of the shape as a nice high A7:

0-0-11-12-10-0

(It may look quite a bit different and be fingered different but it's the same sort of inversion as the B7 and C7 shape.)

Hammer on and pull off your pinky on the two top strings at the 12th fret for some ornaments. Do the same thing with your pinky on the same two strings when you go back to the 7th fret E7.

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST,Sooz(at work)
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 08:27 AM

Rick, we have "pound stores" here in Britain where everthing costs one pound (except, it seems in the January sales when everything is half price!)Poundstretcher is not the same, they are a chain of "cheap and cheerful" shops which sell all sorts of things at low prices.

Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Marion
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:34 AM

Followup thread: 13 movable seventh chords

Rick, maybe you need to buy a new guitar.

Cluin, thanks for the A7, I hadn't noticed that one.

Marion