Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 03:43 PM

Ya know..... we just all ruined these movies for each other.

Ooops!

Sort of.

They will certainly seem different now though than they might have otherwise!

~S~

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: LR Mole
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 03:38 PM

I don't mind movie gaffes so much, but if they're going to give ad models guitars, couldn't somebody at least tell them that the picking hand isn't sort of spraddled all over the general direction of the strings?Are they, waving, or spanking, or exhibiting their manicures?

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 03:33 PM

Miss the gizmo after parry. Sorry!

Don Firth

---

Stuck the gizmo in. --JoeClone

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 03:31 PM

I used to fence -- although how I managed to fence after having had polio at the age of two is much too long a story to get into here, nevertheless, I was able to fence in competition with able-bodied fencers -- and spurred by my interest in the art of swordsmanship, I learned a lot about historical swords and the techniques of handling them.

Movies! Oy Vey!

In the movie "Excaliber," yet another King Arthur epic, the armor worn is circa sixteenth century. I had to keep saying to myself, "Lighten up! This is supposed to be a fantasy!"

In the 1952 "Ivanhoe," with Robert Taylor and Elizabeth Taylor, the chain-mail armor worn was authentic for the period, and in the final Trial by Combat, the weapons (battle ax and mace-and-chain) were authentic, as were the techniques that Robert Taylor and George Saunders used. A rare occurrence. Subsequent film versions of "Ivanhoe" haven't done nearly as well.

What causeth me to wail, moan, and rend my garments is when a couple of guys in a period movie go at each other with heavy, armor-hacking broadswords and they parry with them. The actors (if they carry shields at all) block about two blows with their shields, then throw them away and start handling the broadswords either like baseball bats or like modern Olympic fencers with light-weight fencing sabers (I've heard that sometimes the prop folks make the broadswords out of aluminum). No-no-no-no-no!!! Getting nicks on the cutting-edge of their swords was something that knights and such avoided like the plague. Once nicked, the blade could easily break at that point, which would be: a) damned embarrassing if it happened in the middle of a fight; and b) damned expensive to replace. Buying a good broadsword was about as expensive in those days as buying a new automobile is now (peasants carrying broadswords just didn't happen -- sorry). Using the sword itself to block blows and to parry with wasn't developed until around the early seventeenth century, when thrusting with the point was seen as more deadly than cutting with the edge. Until then, they relied on shields for defense. When firearms made armor obsolete and the sword became lighter, eventually evolving into the rapier (a primarily thrusting weapon), defense was relegated to a small shield called a "buckler," or a fairly long "main gauche" dagger with a hand-guard, held in the left hand. (The term "swashbuckler" came from bellicose types who would walk with a swagger, causing their sword and buckler -- usually hung on their left sides -- to clatter together, indicating that if anybody wanted to give them any crap, they were ready for a fight).

The 1940 movie, "The Mark of Zorro," with Tyrone Power and Basil Rathbone was anything but authentic in that the weapons used were modern, light-weight fencing sabers (you could buy them out of a fencing equipment catalog) and the technique that Power and Rathbone used was the modern Hungarian-Italian style used by most Olympic saber fencers in the 1920s and '30s (the period portrayed was early eighteen-hundreds in California). But, as far as I am concerned, it had, by far, the best duel scene I have ever seen in any movie. Unlike Errol Flynn, who had a lot of verve, but he was strictly a movie fencer, both Power and Rathbone had done some competitive fencing, both were really good swordsmen (especially Rathbone) and, other than the usual slipping on rugs and tripping over the furniture, they went at it hammer-and-tongs, and their form and technique was really good. When the swordplay is that good, I can forgive a few anachronisms.

"The Duellists" (1977, with Keith Carradine and Harvey Keitel) probably had the most realistic duel scenes of any movie I've seen. Two guys circling each other like cats, suddenly rushing in for a couple of frantic jabs, then scurrying out again, obviously scared spitless!

But my favorite (non-fencing) movie howler of all time occurred in a Forties movie called "Destination Tokyo" with Cary Grant. American submarine slips into Tokyo bay and lands a group of guys with a radio on the beach to guide Doolittle's B-25s in to bomb Tokyo. The Japanese pick up the radio signal, locate its source, and send several truckloads of troops out to do mayhem. Big suspense, developed by series of quick cuts between the radio crew on the beach and a shot of the front of one of the trucks speeding a bunch of Japanese soldiers toward the source of the signal. And then you see it! On the front of the Japanese army truck, there is a California license plate!

I saw the movie again about five years ago on TV (AMC channel, I think), and I guess someone else spotted it too, because they had cut the shots of the front of the truck.

Picky, picky, picky. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 03:27 PM

Bruce-O, It wasn't the historical inaccuracy of "Marching Through Georgia" that annoyed me. It was the idea that anyone would honor Confederate war dead by playing it. Your GGGrandfather was a Union soldier, right?

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 03:26 PM

I don't suppose anyone wants to ask Bruce what he was doing watching movies in Seattle in 1656...

I met a man Native American man who had once been an actor, and had been in in numerous westerns with the likes of John Wayne. They would never give him a speaking role (although I think I caught him in Broken Arrow) because he'd been raised in England and attended Oxford and had the accent to prove it.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: GUEST,Jenny the T
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 03:22 PM

Hey Spaw,

I think I know the shot you're talking about now--the "flaming wing" thing put me in mind of that poor Liberator with the wing folding up about it.

And don't forget "The Battle of Britain" (1970?) for good airwork. Pitiful acting, but wonderful realization of mass aerial battles--fighter pilots I've know call them "furballs," and this movie show the fur flying, all right.

The Stukas are models, though. Obviously.

Jenny, who is wishing she was in the air at this very moment.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 03:05 PM

Jenny, The B-24 is a shot from above, slightly ahead and to the left. The B-17 is a shot from slightly above, a good bit behind, and slightly left. I think the Lib was shot from another bomber, but the Fort looks like fighter footage.

.......And I liked "Waldo" for the same reasons....

Spaw

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 03:04 PM

Aw, gee, I see I have double-posted. It was an accident--my apologies.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 02:50 PM

SINSULL, the Levy sheet music collection has Work's "Marching through Georgia", 1865, but GIFs only of later issues. My great-great grandfather was in the march, and I have some eyewitness account, found and distributed by the family historian. I read "Last Confederate Widow" but didn't think much of it.

In Seattle abou 1656 I went to a movie double feature; first "I am a Camera" then a cowboy and Indians one with Lloyd Bridges as the hero. More mistakes in that than I've seen altogether; blond Indians, and others obviously Italian and Arab, the camera car's shadow on the asphalt road on the other side of the trail, and just about everthing one could think of. One couldn't hear the sound track because the audience was howling so loud (it really took off after the first few boos and hisses).

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 02:40 PM

I've always wanted to write a story that takes place in the mid-1800s in the shadow of a mountain that looks like a 1939 Packard.

We have a friend who is a fact checker for films. He says the studios really don't give a damn about historical or any other kind of accuracy -- but if it's a LEGAL matter that they could possibly get sued over, they stand up and listen.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Jenny the T
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 02:38 PM

I've been interested in aviation history since I was little, and bad process-screen simulations of supposed aerial doin's drive me crazier than anything else movie-related, unless it's using unbelievably wrong aircraft to portray others. I felt Spaw's pain when he wrote:

>>The use of stock footage also gets ridiculous......Japanese Zero (played by a "Kate" instead) shoots down Corsair but oddly enough a Hellcat crashes. <<

Yeah, and the thing is, the Zero and the Kate are both dressed-up AT-6's, and they're still flying and available for filming. No excuse at all.

>>And how many times are we going to see that B-17 with the wing on fire and breaking off as it drops out of sight? <<

Well, that's a B-24, but yeah--how dry are they going to milk that same old disaster?

Somewhat off topic:

A couple of my _favorite_ aviation-related movies:

1.The Great Waldo Pepper. Not really the greatest story ever told, but all the flying scenes were filmed in the air--Robert Redford actually got out there on the wing, with yawning death below him, no net and no parachute. When he looks scared, he ain't acting. And the Jennies are real Jennies, and the Curtisses are real too, and (miraculously) so are the Sopwith Camel and Fokker Triplane--reproductions, but accurate full-size ones, with real rotary engines. Frank Tallman, bless his departed soul, did the air-work, some of the best ever done.

2. Wings--a silent epic, the very first oscar-winner, and for all the same reasons as above--a hokey story, but when you see it in the air, it's in the air, folks. Hair-raising scenes, 'cause you know you're looking at the real thing. And they really did find some fool pilot to crash that Fokker D-VII into the house, and he even walked away from it.

Jenny the Amelia Earhart wannabe

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 02:37 PM

The Indians suddenly appear on the surrounding ridges. The music swells BA buh BUHBA-BUM BUM. What the hell is that song, anyway? Is this the orchestral version of a Sioux War song? Anyway, here they come. Even though the scene is ste in the desert southwest, with those ever-present rock spires in the background, the Indians are a motley crew indeed. Full-feathered headresses (that's how you know the Chief) Plains style, leather fringed shirts and pants north-eastern forest tribe style, and Apache and Navajo cloth shirts and concha belts. Just in time, the wagons are circled, and the Indians do what they always do...they ride in endless circles around the wagon train while they are mowed down by the dozens. Why did the Indian Wars last so long, when they lost 30 or 40 in every accidental wagontrain encounter?

And Combat! I love the reruns, great stories and acting...but why do the Germans always, when they are safely hidden behind trees and rocks, charge? According to my count, Sgt Saunders and his 6 guys disposed of over 1000 Germans, mainly due to this strange German prediliction for foolish attack.

In the second Austin Powers movie, he and his girlfriend are driving down what is obviously the Pacific Coast Highway and he remarks "Amazing how the British Countryside looks not at all like Southern California!"

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Bert
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 02:22 PM

Les, It's OK. so suspend belief for a fantasy, and I love Sci-Fi however outrageous the theories. But the movie should not jerk you back into reality with stupid mistakes. Once you've been thrown back into your living room or movie theatre it takes quite a while to get back into the movie. You're enjoyment of the rest of the movie is interrupted with thoughts of 'Get Real'.

"A square dance caller turning around and talking at the same time as he is calling." How can you suspend belief for the rest of the movie? Just doesn't work. Now if it had been a Sci-Fi movie where people DID have mouths in the backs of their heads then maybe we could go along with it.

Naemanson, you're so right about the dirt, rub your hand on the inside of a duct and it comes off black. Years ago all the ducting we made was rectangular, but you may be right about now. I haven't been in the industry for while.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: GUEST,Pete peterson at work
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 02:20 PM

I'm lurking but gosh, I am enjoying this.
This one was pointed out to me: In the opening scene of Citizen Kane it is pointed out to you that Kane, despite all his power, died COMPLETELY ALONE. . . in that case, who heard him say "rosebud?"

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 02:12 PM

Well, Rick, actually-- I believe that if it pertains to something you heard, it should be spelled neard. Just as certain brown trout splash louder than others when they leap, and are by rights knows as teards.

You can take my weard on it, FWIW.

Perhaps the suspension of disbelief varies by sense... some things should be seen, by certain folk, but not heard? And vice versa.

We laugh at how clergy are represented in the popular media, BTW. And at how hospital ERs are portrayed when it comes to death notifications.

~S~

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Naemanson
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:55 PM

Peter, the Indiana Jones part is even worse than that. There is a very quick clip showing him in the control room in a German deck Officer's coat. As if he could hide on a crowded sub where everyone knows everyone else.

And Bert, about duct work, when have you ever seen it so clean? Duct work isn't even that clean when first installed! And there are large ducts but they are round in cross section, not square or rectangular. I liked the bit about the sheet metal screws. I'd forgotten about those.

I have a friend who was an assistant to the prop director for Message In A Bottle. That film was largely filmed here in Maine. One day they needed a coffeepot for a scene. They sent her off to a local antique store where she bought three in variuous states of condition. They chose one based on its age and appearance. Another time they were discussing what kind of table a boatbuilder might have at his boat launching and who he might have to cater the affair. She had to tell them that a boatbuilder would have a pot luck dinner nad throw some planks on to a couple of saw horses for a table. Then he might cover it with an old tarp for a tablecloth. So they set out to design a couple of saw horses and sent her out for a fancy tablecloth...

She used to laugh about the movie people. The had a whole different idea of what was meant by pot luck...

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:54 PM

There's that old caveat about film - "willing suspension of disbelief".

To me a film is successful if it has "tone" - a mood or feeling that is established visually, and through the acting, from the get-go and maintained throughout. Also very crucial is the internal logic. It can be improbable, but if it makes sense within itself, it works.

I liked "The Piano" alot and saw it as more of a fable than a historic re-enactment. If you've seen many of director Jane Campion's other films, you'll recognize that she definitely sets up an "altered reality" in most of her outings. Like Harvey Keitel, she lets it all hang out !

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: GUEST,Bruce O
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:54 PM

Did I get swindeled by a diploma mill? My license to practice says I'm a NERD. Should I have tried for NURD? At any rate nerds/nurds don't have much time to watch movies, and I know only a few mentioned above.

In historical novels characters are often singing songs that haven't been written yet.

Even academics can get fouled up. 'Sources of Irish Tradition Music', 1998, has many tunes from the Lights' undated books of music for their invention, the Harp-Lyre. SITM #2982, date estimated as 1790, is "Kate Kearney" which Sidney Owenson (Lady Morgan) wrote about 1804-5. SITM #3240, c 1795, is "Remmember Your Vows" to the tune of "Eveleen's Bower", the latter being by Thomas Moore in 1807. There are others of such curious inverted history.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:44 PM

The remake of Cape Fear was ridiculous. it was filled with impossibilities. The most glaring being when DeNiro travels quite a distance strapped by his belt to the driveshaft of a Jeep. Wasn't the Driveshaft turning while the vehicle was moving? And the scenes with houseboat in the water. Ridiculous, given the speed the river water was moving the boat would have been destroyed in seconds, and I guarantee you that anyone who had gone off the boat could have in no way returned to it.

The other thing that gets me is that in almost every hockey movie I've ever seen the goalies have the pads on the wrong legs more often than not, and that's a 50-50 shot for someone who has never seen a goalie pad. The goalies are often wearing regular hockey skates, not goalie skates.

Don't even get me started om "The Mighty Ducks".

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:44 PM

Watch Captain Kirk carefully as he looks painfully through the glass at the dying Spock and then tell me why does he keep opening and closing his coat?

I was bored to tears by Braveheart. Mel Gibson just doesn't do it for me. Plus I saw it with a Scotsman who is also an amateur historian. He grumbled through the whole thing and became enraged at the blue painted faces. Guess they were a few centuries out of date. Glad he wasn't a musician too or I would have had to beat him with my popcorn.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:29 PM

I didn't like The Piano simply because I thought the story was downright hateful. I didn't think the idea of transporting the piano was all that ridiculous because pianos had to travel somehow. They weren't all bought in the same town where they were built. The being in tune part, yeah, that's a little odd. But just moving it all that way, that didn't flummox me much.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Bert
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:27 PM

It's great fun when they make a movie and deliberately make these mistakes. Just loved "Robin Hood - Men in Tights".

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:22 PM

I know a lot of movies are not accurate in detail and are mainly for entertainment value. In the normal Hollywood treatment of anything, its a necessity to have several sub-plots, a love interest, etc. Most will hire a tech advisor or two for realism and in the main, they're decent movies, some better than others even with the glaring errors. Hopefully you just overlook them and enjoy. When the enjoyment is gone because of the errors, that's a real problem.

Now I'm sure that the people who made "The Piano," without the benefit of tech advisors, had some idea how ludicrous the concept of a washed up piano was, but I could still live with it. A few years ago, someone made a movie about America's Cup Yacht Racing. Now I love racing sailboats but let's face it folks, if you're not a sailor and have never raced, no knowledge of any of it, wouldn't know a spinnaker guy from Guy Wolfe...........well, frankly, its about as exciting as watching grass grow.

So they cast this thing, buy some 12 Meter boats that had been eliminated (and were no longer used in Cup racing anyway), and hired at least 50 people in the racing community to help train and advise on the picture, named "Wind" (although "Passing Wind" would have been better). During the filming, the producer made great noises about the "realism" and "authenticity" of his movie. It was complete crap of course and beyond belief in the sailing scenes. I mean, not even close!!!

If your intent is to entertain, than why hire so many tech advisors as this movie did? Others do it too. Huge staffs of tech people who are never listened to aren't needed to make schlock. In "Wind" there was a lot of gossip about that floating out of the advisors in the sailing mags, but the general consensus was that its tough to make a living sailing, so why not milk these guys for all they're worth and not worry about whether or not they listen.

So YOU are the tech advisor on a movie in a field you are expert in............Do you get pissed and quit or take the money and run?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Bert
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:12 PM

And Indians (Native Americans) are always much amused by the long chase scene in Stagecoach - In real life the first thing the Indians would have done would have been to shoot the lead horse.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:06 PM

Some very astute observations here!

As a former small format filmmaker and now as a film exhibitor, I must mildly protest. It ain't all that easy! Remember, it's entertainment/fantasy that sells tickets - documentaries have never pulled their freight in the exhibition business.

You're seeing in 90-minutes what took a group of 20 to 80 people, all of whom consider themselves "artistic," three months to shoot and another six months to edit and release. There's bound to be differences of opinion which lead to errors. (Read some of the threads in this forum about the woes of working with bands which contain only 3 to 5 members -- and then increase that pressure by ten fold!)

For example, an aquaintance worked as a tech advisor on a big budget Western (I think "Dances with Wolves") and had the Indians and their villages set up as historically accurate as he could make them. The art director arrived, didn't like the teepee poles and had them all replaced with green foliage still at the tops (totally inaccurate) because it looked "prettier"! The art director had more clout with the director. Guess which poles they used.

Most directors go in with the objective of making the best film they can, and are sometimes very well read on the history they're trying to portray. But, when it comes down to making a decision on a set, with high-priced actors and crew standing by, and time racing by at thousands of dollars per minute, guess which is going to take precedence - authenticity or dramatic impact?!?

Likewise, when the director gets in the editing room toward the end of the project (assuming the studio hasn't yanked it from him/her already), the producer will be pushing for a "commercial" look and sound to please paying audiences. With millions at stake, and his career and reputation on the line, the director may cave in and add a full "Celtic" orchestra instead of just one set of pipes.

So, it is lamentable that dumb errors creep in, but it's the nature of this dreamworld beast.

What really gets me, given the nature of how film fantasies are fabricated, is how often I hear on TV and read in the papers about people saying "It was just like in the movies!" Ex-President Bill Clinton made that comment about some incident in the past year, and recently a woman who had to lie on the floor of an airline terminal while gunmen sprayed bullets around, said the same. Life is NOT a film, and films are NOT reality - but we really really like to think they are !!

OK, I'll quit now.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Bert
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 12:58 PM

Well Rick, it's as Spaw says...The more you know about something the worse this gets ...

I spent many years as a metal worker and many happy months making ducting - If they were to get it right just ONCE.

Perhaps we should comandeer the Mudcat Sitcom thread and do an episode where everything is right for a change.
The hero takes of the grill and finds that he can barely get his arm in the duct - he reaches inside and gets his hand caught in the first joint - after much struggling and screaming he manages to extract his hand and it's dripping with blood.

Oh, and by the way has anyone EVER seen a room in which the walls move in?

Bert.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 12:57 PM

I think the significance of the errors depends on whether the film is truly attempting authenticity. Indiana Jones doesn't bother me -- those movies were just intended to be dumb fun anyway, kind of like James Bond. But Gettysburg, Matewan, and other films that aim for historical accuracy should be held to a higher standard. And then there are all those historical dramas in which everyone is so damn clean, well-dressed, and healthy (at least until they die romantically, always somehow managing to eke out a poignant last quote before gently expiring).

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 12:45 PM

Rick, I honestly can't tell you. I agree it's an important detail in the film's authenticity, and I felt compelled to investigate. No matter how much I enlarged the freeze-frame of that scene, I failed to determine if the private parts were historically accurate. As far as I could tell, Mel's bum was completely authentic.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 12:41 PM

Death Wish (who cares which one anyway?)

Baddie climbs out of a window wearing nothing but black draws and in the next shot he is wearing yellow ones.

I personally rate a film on the continuity errors. If haven't seen any I am usually so absorpbed in the film that it was worth the effort of watching. Like Jane Campion's "the Piano".

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 12:31 PM

ARGHHHH!

That damn piano!! (In "The Piano") My mother got her's tuned every month, and it NEVER took an ocean voyage. The worst "outback" damage it suffered was my toy soldiers running all over it.

How 'bout a little authenticity in dying? Mel Gibson is having the last bit of Haggis torn out of his innards, and he still manages a smile, thinking of his ladyfriend? Or how 'bout those wisecrackin' Ozzies, waiting to be used as target-practice in "Breaker Morant"? Now I can accept Sidney Carton waxing poetic (T'is a far....) before his final haircut, 'cause that's Dickens, but Dirk Bogarde was positively Gleefully noble at the prospect of croaking. I think I prefer (as legend states it) Pancho Villa's exit line (while lying in a pile of vegetables) "...tell them I said SOMETHING"!

Hey Mouse', I'm enraged at Republicans, Democrats, and ALL political parties that take handouts, too. Can I be a member of your group?

By the way, one thing that REALLY annoys a couple of friends of mine, is my constant use of self-deprecating humour (such as referring to myself as a "nurd"!)

Bert, you win the "Golden Rectum" award for "Air-vent anal retentiveness".......although, in the back of my mind a little voice occasionally DID say "can you REALLY crawl through every prison air-vent?"

Yeah, Roger...Altos, tenors....I notice it too.

Oops, I missed the REAL award winner! Giac....muddy pig feet? Holy Moses I feel normal!!

Jeri, were the "Scottish Private parts" authentic? Anyone care to speculate?

Peter, I've heard the "letters of transit" thing before (was it from you) but you bring up another good point. People are always pulling revolvers on other people, who then willingly do their bidding. Strikes me as maybe one out of a thousand people (who aren't already in the murder business) would actually KILL someone, considering the obvious repercussions. If someone dressed in a trench coat who's whole life was running a successful niteclub, with all it's mundanity, pulled a "piece" on me, I think I'd TOTALLY surprise them by simply saying "not today, thanks" and walking away.

Susan. You're right. From now I'm going to add a little European spice to my "nurdness". I will call myself a GNURD, or perhaps a KNURD. "To urr is human to......"

Rick

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 12:12 PM

Curmudgeon's the stickler for early weaponry and we both spend a lot of time yelling at the screen about historical matters (which usually drowns out the dialog which would only upset us more). Sigh. The problem is the people who get their (wildly inaccurate) history from movies.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 12:07 PM

Peter - I always thought that the scene you mentioned in "Raiders" was a tribute of sorts to some of the escapes that Jack Armstrong the All American Boy made on the radio. Once on a Friday the writers got him into an impossible situation { On a ledge in a pit with the enemy above and snakes at the bottom }. They couldn't think of a way to get him out so the only thing they could do on Monday was start off with "After Jack escaped....."

What my wife loves is in a movie like Twister when someone is in danger and the chacter yells "Run !!" As if the option is to stay put and die.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 11:53 AM

The ones I hate are ones where a really good movie is wrecked by a moment of total implausibility. Like "Raiders of the Lost Ark" where Indiana Jones takes a ride on a submarine conning tower -- hey, what if they decide to submerge? No, they are going to cruise along so you can make it to your destination dry. Come on.

The one that has me really worried, though I haven't seen the film since, is someone pointed out that the "letters of transit" in Casablanca don't make any sense at the end because who are they supposed to give them to? No one in Lisbon cares. There are no customs/guards at Casablanca airport. Why doesn't everyone just get on the plane and go? I haven't yet worked out if this wrecks the whole movie for me.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Bert
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 11:45 AM

Some are just too outrageous, like the square dance caller in Giant who turns around and talks to someone behind him and all the time the call is coming out over the speakers and the dancers are still dancing.

And then there are the mandatory climbing through the ventilation duct scenes. There are two things wrong with those, that EVERY movie & TV show gets wrong.
1. The duct outlets in every room are rarely larger than 8 inches and often much smaller.
2.Sections of duct are screwed together with lots of sheet metal screw that have very sharp points, which protrude through on the inside. Even if you were small enough to squeeze through the vent you would certainly get torn to shreds on the screws.

And lets not talk about cutting torches, I've never seen a show where anyone ever really cut a piece of steel. They just wave the flame around a little and the piece falls off, always just in the nick of time of course.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: RWilhelm
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 11:18 AM

I can usually live with Hollywood musical inaccuracies (unless the film is about an actual musician) because I know the general audience doesn't really care. Occasionally, though, it can be downright distracting. I love Scott Joplin and "The Sting" is an otherwise great movie, but why ragtime in a movie about the 1930's?

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 11:06 AM

As a charter member of NERD (Nerds Enraged at the Republicans and Democrats), I am glad you spelled it "nurd" because, not being a word, this is not our acronym and thus you weren't claiming to be member of our group.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Giac
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 10:57 AM

Twister - Although there were many goofs, the most obvious was when the heroes were in a truck and being assaulted by a funnel. A piece of farm equipment meets with the windshield on the passenger side, breaks the glass, complete with breaking glass sounds. Cut. Next scene, conversation continues, but with whole windshield.

True Grit - Fort Smith, Arkansas, and its immediate environs are flat as a flitter. Yet in the movie one sees huge snowcapped mountain peaks (Arkansas mountains are rounded). Kim Darby frequently made reference to being from Dardanelle in Yell County. If she were, she would not have said, in a clipped voice: Dar-da-nelle in Yell Coun-ty. She'd 'a said Dardnail in Yale Canty, just like the rest of us.

Babe - Pig has muddy feet. Next shot, Pig has clean feet. Next shot, Pig has muddy feet.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 10:32 AM

Let's talk about "Buffalo Girls." Entertaining movie, historically a piece of crap, based on the bogus diary of a woman who claimed to be the daughter of Calamity Jane and Wild Bill Hickok.

Reba McEntire played Annie Oakley in this movie. Basically she was Reba in an Annie Oakley costume. She still looked like Reba, she still talked like Reba... even though Annie was from the Midwest (i.e., no Oklahoma accent) and had Long Straight Brown Hair. I thought the purpose of Acting was to Convince People that You Are The Person You're Trying To Portray. How foolish of me.

Mister is one of those people you hate to watch movies with. "They didn't make that pistol until 1875." "They're not shooting black powder. The smoke isn't right." "Civilians wouldn't have had that gun until blahblahblah."

My favorite historical movie: The Long Riders. Sticks to the facts better than any other I have seen, and the soundtrack is pretty darn good too.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 10:30 AM

When they say "new" and "improved" taste in cat food....how do we really know?

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 10:21 AM

From "North and South".......these are the only two I remember, but I'm sure there were more. In the ballroom scene, one of the extras swigs out of a Pepsi can, and in a scene shot on a front porch, the outline of a car is visible through the vines at the end of the porch.

Let's see if this works: Google results for movie goofs. Should be lotsa clickies....

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 10:16 AM

No Jeri, they just realized that beaming them about resulted in weight gain and a bad rug.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 10:07 AM

The whole Scottish movie thing was a royal mess, Seamus. And yes, I did notice all the lovely Uillean pipes in movies like Braveheart and Rob Roy.

Now let's talk about Braveheart. Great movie because it's got Mel Gibson in it, but historical accuracy went straight to hell. The scene that was supposed to be at Stirling Bridge had no bridge in it. Wallace usually wore suits and armor in battle, not a kilt, although there wouldn't have been any good bum shots if he'd had armor on, and that whole scene where the Scots waved their private parts at the English would have become a lot more complicated. A friend pointed out the swords were from the wrong place and time - German I think.

The thing with details is, once you notice something not-quite-right, it seems to nag at you and be impossible to let go.

Brett, I notice stuff in Star Trek as well. If somebody's body gets messed up, why not use the transporter to beam them somewhere in their un-messed up body? They did it way back in Kirk's time - did they forget about it?

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 10:04 AM

Let's talk "Titanic".............The list of accuracy screw-ups is endless, but there is also the "reality break" you are asked to take when the guy and the girl make about two thousand trips from one end of the ship to the other, covering at least 9 deck levels.........while its bow down and listing..........and they're barely even winded!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:58 AM

Yeah, I'm the same way, Rick. I couldn't get past the flaws in "Bound For Glory," either (although I missed the chromatic harp in "Matewan" -- loved that movie). I seem to recall having a similar reaction to Jane Campion's "The Piano" -- bounce a piano over the high seas in a 19th-century sailing ship, have it survive being offloaded and left on an Australian beach, and the thing still plays perfecly in tune! And there are always plenty of movies with actors playing musicians but not having a clue about what to do with their hands. I also agree with you that "The Fabulous Baker Boys" was an exception to the rule -- in fact, I thought it captured the life of a working musician pretty well.

The thing that really gets me has nothing to do with music, though -- it's movies that try to show a war without showing appreciable amounts of blood and gore. Not that I necessarily want to see blood and gore, but war isn't really believable without it, you know? One of the worst of these (in recent times) was Ted Turner's "Gettysburg"; mass slaughter on a truly monumental scale, yet scarcely a drop of blood to be seen.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Allan C.
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:55 AM

I am always amazed, in those scenes in which the stars spontaneously burst into song, at how quickly the bystanders learn the lyrics and even sing heretofore unheard verses! Add to that the unlikelihood that bystanders would even bother to sing at all in real life. God knows how difficult it is to get an audience to sing along when you want them to.

Five-string banjos appear in many portrayals of historic scenes long before they were created.

Automobiles, telephone lines, jet trails and even mountainside firecuts (those clearcut lanes that help to prevent the spread of forest fires,) all appear as anachronisms in the backgrounds of many movies.

And when is Hollywood going to catch on that the Old West was not all White and in fact had a HUGE Black population of cowboys, etc.? (This is most certainly a rhetorical question - I know the answer!)

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:48 AM

Anybody see the old "Columbo" episode where Johnny Cash plays a guitar lick that he never could have played?

And Grab, yeah the Beetle, but the classic is seeing the Charger go out the other end of the gas station after it has blown up.

The more you know about something the worse this gets too. Although I catch most of the musical ones, I completely missed Rick's "Matewan" faux pas as Rick's ear and ability is far better tuned to that than mine. If its a subject you know well, the frustration gets worse. I watch racing movies for the laughs. The only one that has ever come marginally close is "LeMans" and it too had its humorous moments.

The use of stock footage also gets ridiculous......Japanese Zero (played by a "Kate" instead) shoots down Corsair but oddly enough a Hellcat crashes. And how many times are we going to see that B-17 with the wing on fire and breaking off as it drops out of sight? Also, does that German pilot who bails out of the 109 get any royalties? The poor guy and his flaming 109 have played Brits in Spits, Japanese in Zekes, and Americans in everything.........Actually, I always wonder if he survived.

I used to get a lot more worked up, but anymore its all just a form of humor and a game......."Find The Foul-Up".........After you see ol' Ed Wood's "Plan Nine From Outer Space" you realize that anything is possible!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:41 AM

Well Rick, admitting you have a problem can be a big first step.

You say you want to loosen up... well I thought that the word was always spelled [nErd]... so given your own association of this with being overly anal... could you bring yourself not to spell it [nurd]? Strictly to loosen things up I mean.

*G*

My own movie continuity peeves are more low class I'm afraid. Gidget runs through the piazza of Italy chased by the cops, with Moondoggie. She has a very silly hat obscuring her view before they start out, and removes it. As she runs through about four minutes of film, though, it's off, it's on, it's off-- after she has defintiely removed the hat, and there is NO WAY she could have gotten it back on while racing up and down steps and around corners! Bad edits. And her HAIR? She has perfect, tightly-flipped hair in one shot, and a moment later it's fallen nearly straight? Well, maybe, that CAN happen, but in a movie with industrial-strength hairspray?

~S~

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:30 AM

Yeah - I hate seeing the "guitarists" who look like they're holding a baseball bat as opposed to playing chords. That's why I was so suprised that Audrey Hepburn was making with real chord shapes during "Breakfast at Tiffinys" { SP? }. The same thing with Kirk Douglas in "Twenty Thousand Leagues Under The Sea". I doubt that either performed on the soundtrack but at least someone taught them how to fake it well.

But I've always loved the contrails during Biblical battle epics.

Subject: RE: Confessions of an Authenticity Nurd!
From: Grab
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:14 AM

The green Beetle in Bullitt, as a followup to Banjer's pet peeve.

Musical-wise, it annoys me when they either (a) overdub with an obviously studio-recorded soundtrack, or (b) they get a different person to do the singing. The change in voice and tone is very jarring.

Grab.