BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2

Subject: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:01 PM

Continuing THIS fine thread.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Hollowfox
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:44 PM

Thanks, Alex. Naemanson, I enjoyed 13th Warrior, even though I could never really believe Antonio Banderas was from Byzantium or wherever. I did like their handling of "Grendel", etc better than the treatment in the novel. But I'm still waiting for a real movir rendition of Beowulf.:) Jim Dixon, the reflection problem is why they don't use lenses in the glasses. I recall that one of the things that set Michael Caine apart in the beginning of his career (Alfie) was that he insisted on wearing his glasses during shooting, not going through the whole thing in a blur.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:48 PM

Can't Michael Caine afford contacts?

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:52 PM

Some people can't wear them and others don't like sticking their fingers in their eyes. Me, I love em and can't live without em, because I'd run into things.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:59 PM

Thanks thief. Since this one's YOUR thread, I'll spell it YOUR way!!

....yeah, and one more thing... I've always been told that my English ancestors had no teeth by the time they were thirty.....so how come those medieval movie babes and hunks always have a mouthfull of white choppers? "Knock 'em out", I say.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:59 PM

If you're a professional actor, I would figure it's your job to do whatever it takes to portray the part. If that means wearing contacts, then there you go. If you refuse to not wear glasses, then that should be in the contract up front, or I'd say it was breach of contract and they should give him the heave-ho and hire somebody else.

My thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Hollowfox
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:18 PM

mousethief, the movie came out in 1965, and contact lens technology, as well as Michael Caine's income, have changed over the years. And consider the source, a partially remembered interview on the Today Show when the movie was new. (Maybe it was just a publicity gimmick.)

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 05:34 PM

In "The Black Shield of Falworth," (1954) here starring Tony Curtis and Janet Leigh, Tony Curtis delivered a line that had the theater audience, including me, rolling in the aisles. I could hardly believe my ears!

Decades later, I heard Janet Leigh in a TV interview where she mentioned that Tony Curtis (her husband) had been raised in Brooklyn or the Bronx (I forget which) and the accent he grew up with was so ingrained that he was constantly taking speech and elocution lessons to get rid of it -- but sometimes it would just pop through. I sat up straight when she mentioned "The Black Shield of Falworth." She described exactly what I had seen and heard.

I can't really remember the plot, but I think Myles Falworth, the young knight-in-training had just rescued the beautiful Lady Anne from some dire peril and they were heading to someplace where they would be safe. They were riding double on Myles's horse. At one point, he reins in the horse and points to a castle off in the distance. Then he delivers the line:

"Yonduh lies duh castle o' my fadduh!"

Janet Leigh said that she just about fell off the horse. But they called it a wrap and printed it! In later the TV version of the film, they cut it out. Too bad! It was classic. Videos are available, though. I wonder. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 06:09 PM

Seems to me you'd have to be a big-name actor to be able to call the shots and keep your job. Maybe Michael Caine was able to persuade the director that he looked better in glasses, or that it would add some realism, uniqueness, whatever. Even then, he must have had a very open-minded director. Most directors freely indulge stereotypes: people who wear glasses are nerdy intellectuals, fat people can't fall in love (in fact, fat people can't do much of anything except provide comic relief), the leading man must be about 3 to 5 inches taller than the leading lady, and so on.

I used to be an amateur stage actor. I've actually had directors, at auditions, order actors to line up so they could compare heights!

I have always worn glasses, never contacts. Directors nearly always wanted me to perform without them. Of course, if it's a period piece, and your eyeglass frames aren't appropriate for the period, they have to go. Amateur theatres don't have the budget to buy you a new pair, but this should be no problem for most Hollywood movies.

Fortunately, after weeks of rehearsing, I could easily walk through my role without running into walls. I figure it was actually an advantage NOT to be able to recognize people in the audience. That could be terribly distracting. The toughest part was getting into position backstage before the curtain call. Tough because (1) this has to be done quickly in the dark and (2) the curtain call usually isn't rehearsed or even planned until a day or two before opening night. I often had to have another actor lead me by the hand.

I saw Drew Carey on a talk show recently. He has had LASIK surgery and no longer needs glasses. However, he said he has discovered that glasses have become a sort of trademark for him, so he will probably continue to wear them, at least in his sitcom.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 07:12 PM

The scene was in France, at a small movie theater that showed American movies with sub-titles for the locals. The movie was some WW II black & white B-movie....shells were falling, dust was billowing. In a ditch beside a road crouched two GIs, trying to keep their heads from being blown off as they wonder what to do.......they hear strange noises in the distance, and cautiously, one peeks up and peers down the road, straining to see what is happening.

Suddenly, his face lights up, and he turns to his comrade happily and stands up and points down the road and shouts, "Tanks!"

and on the screen the sub-title says.."merci!"

*told to me by the lady who saw it...she says she was the ONLY one in the theater laughing out loud*

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 07:41 PM

I personnaly always liked watching movies just for the "bloopers" especially some of the westerns where you see guys in jeans with zippers. Zippers were't invented until the 1880s and really didn't catch on until the early 1900s. Kindest reguards, Neil PS- You really wouldn't have had Southerners singing or playing Marching Through Georgia. but the one that gets me is the promo for the History Channel's presentation of The Founding Fathers using the tune which wasn't written until probably late 1864 early 1865 and published in Chicago in 1865.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 08:53 PM

Hollowfox, I have two daughters in their late teens. The opinion in this house is that Antonio Banderas can do no wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 03:49 AM

I don't like to worry you all but a press story yesterday implied that "research showed" ( doesn't it always?!) that those of us who get obsessive about such things are more prone to heart attacks.!
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:01 AM

And of course the egregious use of the finger by Kate Winslett in the Titanic. Those vulgar Edwardians.

One that always really bothered me was the buffalo scene in Dances With Wolves, as if Indians never laid waste buffalo herds. I confess that I loved the rest of the movie to distraction, totally phony and contrived though it was. I even liked Kevin Costner.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:04 AM

My eye dr. tells me that some people are Physically Unable to wear contacts if their eyes don't produce enough tears. I don't know how common it is, though. But now here's the thing, in my lifetime, I think I've seen Michael Caine WITHOUT glasses more often than with. So what's up with that?

But Alex brings up a good point which sort of refers back to my comments in Thread 1 about Reba McEntire playing Annie Oakley... she didn't try to look like her or talk like her in the least, and what's more, portrayed her as an uppity little snob! The Annie Oakley I have read about seemed to have a great sense of fun and delight about her.

Also in Buffalo Girls, Russell Means portrayed Sitting Bull as a mean old man. I don't know enough about Sitting Bull to say one way or the other... but I did read that while he was traveling with Buffalo Bill in the US, he gave money to the shoeshine boys because he didn't understand how these children could have so little in a land of so much. Hardly a mean spiteful old man.

And Anjelica Huston was WAY too pretty to play Calamity Jane. And they played hell with the real-life love story of Teddy Blue Abbott and Granville Stuart's daughter. And while I loved Lonesome Dove, I have to say that Larry McMurtry gets really low marks from me in the history department. In one of his books he has Judge Roy Bean killed off by a bad outlaw, which was not what happened to Bean at all! In another he kills off Big Foot Wallace in a Mexican Black Bean lottery.... while Wallace was captured and subjected to such a game, he drew a white bean and lived to be an old man. (Maybe McMurtry has a thing about beans.)

Speaking of Calamity Jane... I was telling Mister about this thread, and he said, Didja mention Wild Bill?

Oh my, I had tried to forget about that.

Jeff Bridges played Wild Bill in a movie of the same name several years ago... while he was a very convincing Hickok, the rest of the movie fairly sucked. Ellen Barkin was Calamity Jane - again, too cute. And the script was something totally out of a writer's imagination. But I guess that's what writers get paid to do, huh?

I don't generally have a problem with putting real historical figures into plausible fictional situations. It can add a lot to a novel or a movie. But I don't like blatant aberrations.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:11 AM

The Indians didn't destroy the buffalo herds merely in order to wipe out the white man, however. Remember Kit Carson (and weep).

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:20 AM

(1) Pardon my ignorance, Bardford, but what's wrong with bodhrans on the Titanic?

(2) Here's Mark Twain on authenticity, from the preface to "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn:"

"IN this book a number of dialects are used, to wit: the Missouri negro dialect; the extremest form of the backwoods Southwestern dialect; the ordinary 'Pike County' dialect; and four modified varieties of this last. The shadings have not been done in a haphazard fashion, or by guesswork; but painstakingly, and with the trustworthy guidance and support of personal familiarity with these several forms of speech.

"I make this explanation for the reason that without it many readers would suppose that all these characters were trying to talk alike and not succeeding."

(3) A friend of mine who plays piano is annoyed when people try to talk to her while she's playing. She calls it the "Dooley Wilson syndrome." Apparently Dooley Wilson, as Sam, really did play the piano in "Casablanca," and he really could play and talk at the same time. This has led countless non-musicians to assume that all pianists can do so.

(4) Here is the IMDb page of goofs in "Casablanca." It has some interesting comments on the "letters of transit."

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:25 AM

Talk about casting..........Another of those flying movies awhile back had Valerie Bertinelli playing Pancho Barnes, reportedly (and I've seen pictures myself) one of the most unattractive women ever to utter the word fuck on a continual basis.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:30 AM

Why is it that ugly male actors get plenty of work but there are very few parts for ugly female actors? I mean, the parts are There, but there don't seem to be many ugly female actors.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:41 AM

Because the chief target audience for movies is 15 to 25-year-old males, and they would far rather look at good looking women than otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 12:36 PM

OK, now pay attention folks, this is wayyy up there with "Air vent dimensions" (Bert) and "Letters of Transit" (Peter) .....Why oh why, in every musical, or every gangster movie, does the singer..(or Fred Astaire) whether a big star or ingenue ALWAYS only does ONE number, and then gets to take a break..which always means joining important people...who always have the best table in the house...although they ALWAYS get to the club late?

It's not fair I tell you! Saloon Entertainers have to do full 45 minute sets. And rarely is the front table made up of Gangsters, theatre impresarios, famous ageing singers, or your future life-partner.

As anyone who's sung in niteclubs knows, that front table has drunken college kids in pre-throw-up mode, watching WWF on the big screen tv over the stage.

Does anyone find it a bit disconcerting to watch poor dooley Wilson WHEELING that stupid piano around Rick's niteclub? At least when you've done "strolling guitarist" you keep a BIT of your dignity. Not much, but a bit.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 12:47 PM

I watched a PBS special on Victor Borge the other night... a singer he was accompanying said, "Follow me" meaning follow him for the tempo... but when the singer began to walk across the stage, Victor and his sidekick literally FOLLOWED the man with the piano, Victor playing the whole time. That's just about the funniest damn thing I've ever seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:19 PM

Kim C: You're right about "ugly" actresses. Ugliness is relative, of course. People who look perfectly average in real life tend to look ugly on movie screens (or at least directors think so) because we are so used to seeing only beautiful people there, especially in romantic roles. The exceptions tend to prove the rule, because there are so few of them:

Minnie Driver is not particularly good-looking, but she is a great actress. She did the most realistic (and moving) crying scene I have ever seen in "Good Will Hunting."

Kerry Fox, who played Janet Frame in "An Angel at My Table." (No doubt, it helped that Jane Campion directed it.)

Janeane Garofalo. She's not bad looking, but she's had to overcome the handicap of being short. I think she'd be MUCH more in demand as an actress if she were tall. Her most famous movie, "The Truth about Cats and Dogs," was ABOUT being unattractive. She also always wears her glasses when she appears on talk shows, which surely doesn't win her any points with agents and directors who happen to be watching. I admire her for that.

The "Rosanne" show on TV broke a lot of stereotypes. It had several less-than-glamorous actresses: Sara Gilbert (Darlene), Laurie Metcalf (Jackie), Sandra Bernhard (Nancy), and of course Rosanne herself. But then, "Rosanne" was a comedy, and it's easier to get away with being unattractive if you're funny. None of those women has had what I'd call a GREAT career since then.

John Goodman has shown that fat men don't always have to be funny, but he had to pay his dues as a comic actor first.

Heather Matarazzo is (pardon me) homely as a mud fence, but she was great in "Welcome to the Dollhouse," which was about the pain of being an unattractive child.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:56 PM

I have to tell you, I think John Goodman is sexy. (Maybe I should have posted that on the I Have Sinned thread.) He just sort of has a Way about him.

I didn't watch Roseanne much but I did like Sarah Gilbert. She was quirky and I liked that about her.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 04:18 PM

The stereotypical depiction of Indians certainly did a flip-flop when Little Big Man was made. The angry, stupid, cruel savage was replaced by the sensitive, earth-loving, ideal human as demonstrated by the Cheyennes in the movie. And of course, Custer was transformed from martyred American hero to megalomaniac, bloodthirsty murderer. The depiction of the Indians was redeemed by Chief Dan George, who was excellent in his role.

The most realistic (in my opinion) depiction of Indians and the true nature of the Indian Wars was represented in the film Ulzana's Raid, a Burt Lancaster vehicle from the early 70s. Hollywood is notorious for black and white judgement calls: Divining the deeper understanding behind complex issues has never been the strong suit. The fact that most Americans have divined their opinions about Indian people and the complicated issues surrounding them from movies is a sad statement about the national mentality.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 03:01 PM

Kim C: How could I forget Linda Hunt!? She won an Oscar in 1982 (for playing a man, no less!) and has had mostly obscure roles since then. I see she has a fairly regular gig on "The Practice" where she plays a judge. I haven't seen the show, but I suppose it works because she gets to sit behind a bench, where you can't see how short she is, and she has to be professional, not glamorous. Her recent resume at IMDb mostly consists of voice-overs, narration, voices of animated characters, and so on.

Which leads me to another question I have often wondered about: What do actors do in the long gaps between gigs, if they're not big stars? Do any of them have other jobs/occupations? Anybody know anything about this?

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 03:51 PM

Er, Minnie Driver has certain other assets besides being able to act.

You think nightclub singers have it easy in films? Anyone who has ever been in the theatre can't help but laugh at "backstage" in every single movie -- lots of space, clean dressing rooms (with working lights and mirrors), nobody trips over anything. People standing around waiting for their entrances -- watching the other actors on stage!!!!! (I mean, come on, this is not what actors do, unless they are looking at the assets of the other actors. They have been watching these bores through a long rehearsal period. Can you believe that jerk wasting their time when they should be looking at ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME, that's more like it.).

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Hollowfox
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 04:24 PM

Naemanson, it sounds like your daughters have pretty good taste.
Irish Sargeant, I once heard the (probably apocraphal) story thet, during the 1976 presidential campaign, Jimmy Carter made a stop at (I think) Tucson, Arizona. A wag (known to the narrator, of course) arranged for the welcoming band to play Marching Through Georgia as he got off of the plane, and of course all he could do was to keep smiling. The punchline is that the local newspaper supposedly noted the choice of music, and interpreted it as being a tribute to Georgia being Mr. Carter's home state.
I've always wondered how anybody could crawl through ductwork without: A) making a gawdawful racket or B) crashing through.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Naemanson
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 07:26 PM

Yeah, Hollowfox, I've always thought so.

Peter, your description of backstage makes me realize how lucky I have had it. Your description was spot on for everything but the actors. The plays I have done have been with people who watch the play like hawks, willing those on stage to do their jobs well, standing by for them to come off stage, keeping track of the cues, and standing by with the next props.

Of course, that's community theater...

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Dave Swan
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 12:09 PM

When Backdraft was released, several firefighter's union locals hired a cinema for the afternoon and had a private sceening to benefit a nearby burn center.

Picture a cinema filled with firefighters, nurses and paramedics, most of whom have a pretty good heat on to begin with. All of whom are rummaging around in coolers for another beer. None of whom will suspend their disbelief for a moment.

Nothing against Ron Howard, the director. He's made generous contributions to firefighter's causes, and tried for authenticity wherever possible. However, where's there's smoke there's (say it with me now) fire. Except in Backdraft where the firefighters walk upright through clear atmospheres with merry little gas jets burning around them. Interior firefighting is done largely on one's hands and knees, groping around and peering through the blackness looking for a glow.

Apparently getting flashed over by fire is an inconvenience which can leave you with a nasty heat rash, but if you keep moving, you're O.K.

Heat, you may have noticed, rises. Not in Backdraft, where fire runs across the floor, not the ceiling. They had to turn the sets upside down for those shots.

But the best, all time, throw popcorn at the screen and hoot scene, comes when the probie firefighter and his girlfriend do the horizontal mambo in the hosebed of a fire engine. They are pictured on a bed of fluffy white, clean firehose. Firehose gets pulled through ash, soot, burning garbage and things one tries hard not to think about. Following the most careful cleaning, it's grey, smelly, and often harboring bits of glass and dirt which have escaped the scrub brush. Not where you would put your privates, or anyone else's. Additionally, firehose is coupled together every fifty feet with a big, cold metal fitting. Not a one was visible in that load of hose. The only coupling there was human.

Lots of laughs, though. And the beer was good.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 12:22 PM

Have you ever tried putting out an ox on fire? I'm told it is brutal, and the steaks are tough....
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 11:01 PM

Excalibur was a silly movie, but not because the 5th-6th century warriors were riding around in 16th century tournament armor. Arthurian tales have often been told anachronistically. Excalibur was simply part of this tradition.

I'm told that Born on the 4th of July has the recuperating soldier hearing Don McLean's American Pie...in 1969, several years before the song was released. Is this so ? I've never seen the movie.

T.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 11:11 PM

Generally more goofs than anything else (bad cutting, etc), but here's an enjoyable site for Movie Slip-Ups.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Grab
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 09:15 AM

KimC, there's quite a few in the character actress section, just as there's quite a few ugly men in the character actor section. You won't find ugly blockbuster-movie-stars of either gender, unless (a) they're the baddies, or (b) they're adding "character".

As for non-good-looking actresses: Meryl Streep? And I've never liked Jodie Foster either.

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Mark Clark
Date: 01 Apr 01 - 05:13 PM

I guess I missed these threads when they were active. I'm surprised no one mentioned the film "Kansas City." Interspersed with the plot line is a continuing jam session that is not only musically wonderful but includes a complete line-up of period Selmers (saxaphones) and other instruments appropriate for the time.

If you like authenticity and jazz, go rent this movie. We had to go out of town to see it. It never made it to C.R. I'm guessing it's out on video by now.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: DougR
Date: 01 Apr 01 - 08:18 PM

Geeze! You guys sure are tough on glass wearers. 'Tis really true that not everyone can wear them.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Willie-O
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 10:10 AM

...just was watching the movie Crossroads, which is pretty enjoyable all in all. Most of the guitar playing scenes are very well faked, but the very beginning is inexplicable. It purports to show Robert Johnson recording "Crossroads". The actual slide playing is by Ry Cooder and sounds great and clear of course. But it shows Johnson playing what appears to be a Martin OOO-18 or similar--I highly doubt this was what RJ played there--and it's got a CAPO on! To play slide! No buzzes or hitting-fret noises either. A completely improbable instrument AND setup for one of the most important three minutes in the history of the blues.

Willie-O

"All I ever wanted them to say was, 'He could really play. He was good.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 10:31 AM

Rick - what sort of films are these with the medieval babes with their mouths full of choppers?
Your english ancestors would blush! Chopper is slang for penis! (well it is in England anyways)

Kris
Though I suppose then the lack of teeth would be an advantage???

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 10:43 AM

HEY, all the actresses you name as being not particularly attractive I think are dolls! Janeanne Garofalo is cute!! But then again, I think all women are beautiful...

Subject: RE: BS: Authenticity Nurd [sic], take 2
From: Chip2447
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 04:24 PM

count the number of hubcaps that Steve McQueens Mustang loses in the infamous chase scene in "BULLITT", also there is a certain green, PARKED, VW beetle that gets passed 4 or 5 times