BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away

Subject: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From:
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 10:24 PM

I won't be reading any messages or posting other than to the p.p.-related posts until it goes away. I realize this could encourage some to keep it going under that header forever but so be it. I cannot believe we would collectively tolerate a message that says "welcome to Pol Pot." As I asked there, what would be the response to "welcome Adolph Hitler". They are about equally evil as far as I can tell. A portal to evil incarnate is now open and I'll just do my little bit. Happy St. Patrick's Day. After your celebrations, please on Sunday rent "the Killing Fields" and see how welcome the monster should be. Or talk to your Cambodian neighbors. mg

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 10:27 PM

Mary, did you see my answer to your question on the other thread?

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 11:09 PM

Works for me - ought to send him back to Cambodia - I'm sure there are a few folks there that could use him - use him up maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 11:13 PM

Shall we sign a petition in the thread, Mary, to ask that the thread title be changed? I know usually Joe or Max won't do that without the request of the original poster and I know the whole thing was done with heavy irony, but it is an ugly thing to see and I think it could be better named.

Before anyone has a cow and starts yelling about censorship or amending...I am only asking, not demanding and I do think this us is a rather unique case.

How about it, Joe, Max, if enough of us sign on here and ask that it be changed, would you oblige?

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 11:17 PM

She doesn't want the title changed. She wants the welcome post to be gone. I'd like it to be gone, too. I'm tired and I want to go to bed.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Banjer
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 05:12 AM

I didn't even open the thread because I didn't know who or what a Pol Pot is. It's just one of those things that if one is not interested just ignore it...I know sometimes it's hard to overlook some things, but I wouldn't let such a thing ruin my enjoyment of the Mudcat, which overall is one of the best sites on the web.

Carol C...I'm tired and I want to go to bed.? Sounds like there might be a song in there **G**

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 05:32 AM

I'm with Mary on this. Irrelevant and tasteless nonsense. Some of the BS stuff really makes me wonder although I support the right to speak freely and am against censorship. It seems to me some people just have to abuse the freedom they fortunately have.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:07 AM

Banjer does the smart, mature, responsible thing... If ya don't like it, don't read it... easy as that...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Midchuck
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:33 AM

My understanding of the original post was that he was saying that anyone whose political convictions are anything other than modern politically-correct liberalism is no better than Pol Pot, and is unwelcome here.

So much for welcoming diversity of opinion in this place, but I knew that.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Skeptic
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:15 AM

Peter,

I have to agree. I think it was in pretty bad taste but as a friend from Cambodia commented after reading the related threads: at least you can say it and the worse that happens is some people get mad. As he lost family to Pol Pot, I'd sort of expected something more vehement, although he can hold forth at length on the US support for Pol Pot.

Kat,

I'm not sure how re-naming it changes anything or why this is a "unique case". For me, statements like that wave a red flag and I have to ask: Under what conditions is a little censorship okay? What criteria can be applied? Because its "just a mudcat forum"?

I understand the motivation and a part of me agrees, but I suggest that looking at it a little deeper reveals a (potentially) more serious issue: That of prior restraint. While hardly a landmark first amendment issue, it points out the old truth: no one ever has to argue to have popular speech or ideas protected.. Lets change the name. And the next time it will be a little easier. Starting is always easy. Its stopping that causes problems/

Which wasn't my take on your motivation. It would just seem to be a sort of "collateral damage".

If all 8500+ registered mudcatters voted to change the name, would that make it any more right?

I think the use of Pol Pot's name to make a point was in pretty bad taste. The same can be said for a lot satire. It's supposed to make people feel uncomfortable. This one certainly did.

The solution would seem to be not to read it.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:17 AM

"I won't be reading any messages or posting other than to the p.p.-related posts until it goes away." Do I understand you're going to make it go away by contributing to it? Somehow, I don't think that will work. You want beast to go away, don't feed beast.

I don't read the political threads anymore, because it's the "same old sh*t, different day." I'm very happy not reading them.

Midchuck, I agree. There's a common ploy to use when arguing - demonizing. Pol Pot just decided to pre-empt people. "You can't call me anything worse than I'll call myself." The discussions become about the people involved and how evil or stupid they are instead of about the issues. In my opinion, the only people likely to win one of those demonizing matches are the ones who doesn't engage in one, and instead stick to the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:03 AM

Kudos to John (Skeptic)

First of all, I read the original posting in the mentioned thread. There is nothing in it that makes me think the post was romanticizing or truly supporting Pol Pot. You may not have found it funny, but I don't see how you could truly think anyone involved in the thread truly supports the policies of Pol Pot.

And YES I do think the responses would have been exactly the same if the thread said welcome Adolph Hitler. After all, Adolph Hitler has now been mentioned in this thread and I would be suprised to see a new boycott started because of it.

I'm not sure I agree that using Pol Pot's name was in really bad taste...satire only works if the reader recognizes the subject matter. It would not have even been recognizable as satire if the guy chose the name of some kid from his elementary school that he didn't like.

I think Pol Pot's name should be used in more satire. I think we should use it so often that whenever somebody does something bad we say he's being like Pol Pot. Let's not just pretend the man never existed and never mention his name again...that would dishonor those who stood up to him or were persecuted by him.

Finally, peace comes through communication. I am appalled that you would say that you refuse to participate until somebody makes that post go away. Shame on you. That doesn't sound like something a rational individual would say...it sounds more like something Pol Pot would say.

"Understand that change begins with the individual"

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:04 AM

Everyone here has a line they cannot cross. Those lines co-exist here all the time. We don't stop to notice how often people here choose to keep communicating despite seeing something going on that seems deeply wrong.

What we CAN do is learn from the things we do. If people are going to unleash topics that provoke political rancor, there are going to be ripples that spread all over the Mudcat. Each time this happens, we can't go back and change what we did, but we CAN and we DO take note and change what we do NEXT. This is how real life works. It goes forward, always, even if we don't feel like it does.

One thing we can choose to look at is whether someone calling himself "[pick any demon, hitler, etc.]" IS that person.... if Hitler, Pol Pot, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. strolled in here, we would react a certain way and it would be justified by what they have actually done. But to react the same way to someone co-opting one of those names is as unnecessary as taking all 6 Jesuses at the your local madhouse seriously and praying to them.

Someone has taken a stance by using tactics that restimulate deep, justified distresses. But that does not rob us of our obligation to respond with our best selves, our minds, and our sense.

If saber-rattling is a skill one has, and one must therefore use it, is it not more effectively used on the REAL evildoers that compare to these historical "originals"? Is it worth the time and energy to try to deal with one so small as these we see here at Mudcat, when there are Big Bad Guys (and Gals) out there actually running things?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mkebenn
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:14 AM

I'm all too aware of Pol Pot, "The Killing Fields" made me sick, and I never opened the thread because of that. Mike

Subject: my boycott
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:16 AM

I have no lines... show me a line and I'll be more than happy to do a dance across it and back again!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:20 AM

Well said, Skeptic, of course, you are right. I was after all only musing. thanks

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:32 AM

UB DAN...........Reading your post from top to bottom, I could not agree more or stated it better. Thanks.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Skeptic
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:22 AM

UB Dan,

Thanks for the kind words. Its hard work being right all the time but someone has to do it. :-)

BTW, My "bad taste" comment was related more to some of the sensibilities expressed here than as a general rule.

Kat,

I knew you were musing. You have now found one of my "lines" that I react and overreact to. :-)

Susan,

There are certainly lines. My concern is that I get to draw my own lines (as much as possible), not have them drawn for me. Or if they are, get to accept them affirmatively.

There are the big battles and the skirmishes. This is a very minor skirmish. (I hope). They all need to be "fought".

And I agree, there should be some sense of "place". Most people recognize that Church or Temple or Sacred Circle isn't the best place to tell certain kind of jokes. (Except maybe spaw?)

The same general acceptance of "place" doesn't exist for the Mudcat forums, although it's clear some people thought they did.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:34 AM

Yes, John, and if we draw them ourselves and take responsibility for doing it, we can move them, too.

I've been thinking since my last post-- a bad habit that can lead to more posts. I am thinking that I wish that before posting earlier, or even days ago when she first objected to the Pol Pot business, that I had messaged Mary, and asked her if what she was trying to say was, "This hurts me. Could you please stop." Because I have trouble hearing that when it isn't said straight out. But people also have a hard time saying it straight out-- I have trouble saying it straight out myself.

Instead it is so much easier to say, "YOU make me feel like THIS." Or "YOU should do THIS so I won't have to feel THAT." Or "MY feelings are a reliable guide to YOUR action." Or "YOU are wrong because what is RIGHT is...."

So then I've been wondering how often I've been drawn into a debate that started with what really was meant to say, "This is what hurts me." I KNOW how I prefer to respond to that kind of statement. It's just real hard to know when to read that between the lines and when to take someone's words at face value. It's an area where I see myself changing-- so the older guidelines I used to use, sometimes without deep thought, are shifting.

There are those kinds of lines too.

Hopefully we all have those too, and hopefully they all shift as we put in more time on the planet. I know if I had to see everyone *here* as rigidly, inescapably, and eternally committed to any one thing they have said, it would be a world I would not care to live in.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:37 AM

I drew a line
I drew a line for you
Oh what a thing to do
And it was all yellow...

(just bringing it all back home to music)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:56 AM

It was yellow? Here I thought it was Pink. What were you drawing with?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:26 AM

I'm going to hold my breath until all threads about Bob Dylan drop out of the archives. Don't try and stop me.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 12:36 PM

If noone posts to a thread it disappears so why not just ignore it and let it go away. Each time someone posts it brings it back to the top of the list. Damn I just did that.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Amergin
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 12:48 PM

Yeah, Alex? Well, I'll just up you a bit and refuse to sing until Danny Boy and When Irish Eyes Are Smiling are stricken forever from the memories of mankind.....

No need to go celebrating everyone....

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:00 PM

Can't argue. Turning blue.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:20 PM

Tangled up in blue, don't you mean??

Spaw, the lines are always yellow if your on the road painting crew.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:22 PM

I'll get you for that, Matt.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: John Routledge
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:28 PM

Do we really ALL want the right to read EVERY single thread and not get upset occasionally. Yours Interestedly GB

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:30 PM

The real test of free speech is whether we're willing to give it to people we disagree with, or who offend us. If not, then it's not really free.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: John Routledge
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:30 PM

Do we really ALL want the right to read EVERY single thread and not get upset occasionally. Yours Interestedly GB

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:41 PM

Oh Danny Boy
The pipes, the pipes are calling
From glen to glen
And down...
Still breathing guys?

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: GUEST,Midchuck upstairs
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:51 PM

But come ye baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack, when Summer's in the meaaaaaaaaaaaaaadddooooooooooooowww....

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 02:06 PM

I can understand how someone could find the message to not be humorous in a disinterested way, but I still don't see how it was offensive...unless someone was upset that the object of ridicule was olpay otpay (pig latin for the one who's name cannot be uttered...and I'm afraid that even his initials may do harm)

oray enwhay ethay alleysvay ushedhay anday itewhay ithway owsnay......

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 02:11 PM

I know this is terribly obnoxious of me, but I'm going to do it anyway.

To all of you who kept telling me that I should back off because flame wars go away by themselves:

I told you so.

This thing is escalating. There is now a Pol Pot 2 thread. Have fun with your flame war. I'm going to go write in my diary thread.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 02:59 PM

I remember reading that when Dean Jonathan Swift wrote A Modest Proposal - his pamphlet which suggested that the way of dealing with poverty in Ireland would be to introduce an organised system of child cannibalism, he came under attack from two lots of people.

He was attacked by people who recognised that he was attacking the way in which Ireland was governed, and the poor oppressed and exploited.

But he was also attacked by people who took him literally and believed that he was in fact making a serious suggestion.

Sometimes people appear to have a satire bypass. And not just in the 18th century. "Welcome Pol Pot", was clearly "Guest 0lder and wiser"'s way of saying precisely the opposite - saying that there should be limits on the type of extremism that should be welcomed at the Mudcat. Which I don't take as a call for censorship - not being welcomed is not the same as being excluded. I can think of a good few people I wouldn't want to drink with, but I wouldn't feel I had a right to tell the landlord to chuck them out.

I can see why someone might disagree about the precise place where the line gets drawn, and feel that in this case the poster was over reacting. But I am bewildered at the idea that anyone could see it as meant literally.

Interesting to see that Hitler has retreated into history enough to have his first name misspelled as Adolph instead of Adolf (and the spell checker I use makes the sam,e nmistake). I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or a good thing. I suppose it's inevitable, the same way people will cheerfully talk about others or themselves as being "to the right of Genghis Khan." Time doesn't heal wounds, but there's definitely a chronological desensitisation process.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 03:10 PM

McGrath of Harlow, I think some people might have a problem with your stance for this reason. I think the issue is not so much whether or not it is appropriate for someone like MAV to be welcomed into the Mudcat. I think the issue is whether or not one Mudcatter has a right to tell another Mudcatter they can't welcome someone like MAV into the Mudcat. That does seem like censorship to some people.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 03:29 PM

Cheers to McGrath of Harlow for a message well written and a lesson (spelling) well taught.

imagine my embarrassment - 'ph' indeed. "A rose by any other name..." (this is not meant to imply that any dictator, past or present, smells sweet)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 03:35 PM

Can't? Or oughtn't? I mean we can say "you can't do that" all we want, but obviously people can post whatever they please. But who said "you must not welcome Mav"? I don't remember reading that.

And the second PP thread is merely a masturbation exercise for somebody who is staying anonymous. No named mudcatter is going there to respond. So it's hardly a flame war at all. Hopefully it will stay that way.

Carol, we don't need a second conscience. Even Jiminy Cricket is out of work now that Pinocchio is a Real Boy.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 03:41 PM

I'm sure you're right, mousethief. The playing field is all yours. Enjoy.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: GUEST,Cleigh O'Possum
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 04:41 PM

I am offended deeply by the thread asking for lyrics to a song about chopped up possums. AS a longtime Mudcat Icon and participant though, I realize that we are all easily offended sometimes and the best thing to do is say your piece and just ignore the nasty people whenever you can. I always try to ignore Cletus and if I can do that then almost anything is possible.

Cleigh O'Possum

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 04:48 PM

Hear, Hear, McGrath! Nicely done. Next round's on me.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Jande
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 05:02 PM

Mousethief said: "The real test of free speech is whether we're willing to give it to people we disagree with, or who offend us. If not, then it's not really free."

I agree. And I will accede to those people the right, because I want it myself. But begrudgingly, at first, though sometimes with quickening interest in the ensueing discussion that teaches me who I am dealing with and what the boundaries may become of our being together, however briefly .

~ Jande (Seanna Rowe)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 05:31 PM

Thanks McGrath, I'm reassured. I'm bewildered by some of the reactions here...

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 06:08 PM

It has finally come full circle and thanks to McGrath who could see it for what it was. I posted third on that thread and found it frankly humorous, a lovely bit of satire and a nice touch of irony thrown in.

The real situation was not with "older and wiser" but to start out with, the problem was Mav. My choice, and its only mine, was to keep an eye on him but certainly not welcome him......and I said then, that, like a snake, if you befriend it, you will eventually be bitten because it is after all, a snake. I made no judgement about anyone else or what they should do....I simply expressed my opinion. It is still my opinion.

But Mav does have his share of enemies and friends around the place and that's as it should be. I didn't see where it was very useful to start a "welcome" thread for him at this late date as Flattop did.........and I think ol' Flats knew exactly the reaction it would get. Were you to ask me, I'd say that the welcome thread was a troll and designed to stir the pot a bit. But then, the pot gets stirred around here all the time.....not a big deal.

You.....me....Mav....Flattop....guests.....we all have a chance to speak openly here. Hurt feelings are an unfortunate part of it as well and though I can empathize with those whose feelings are hurt, it is often the price you pay for that freedom you so desire. PolPot didn't give many the chance to have hurt feelings, but instead made them unable to have any feelings at all.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 06:09 PM

Hurt feelings are a fact of life. Life is hard. Get used to it, peoples.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 06:57 PM

Sorry. I think that's a cop out. I think that a mature bunch of civilized people can communicate in a way that doesn't involve mean spirited behavior. (Not being anyone's conscience, just speaking my mind.)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:03 PM

True enough. I think it was the hurt feelings when I was a kid that really left lasting damage. Mudcat is "child's play" compared to that.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:04 PM

If mean-spirited behavior were the only cause of hurt feelings, Carol, the world would be a piece of cake.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:07 PM

I guess I don't get your point mousethief.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:30 PM

Carol, you cannot control mean spirited behavior, whatever that is ans however you define it, any more than you can control speech in a place like this....and frankly in the rest of the world. I doubt that you'd ever get agreement on the definitions anyway. Yours are yours.....MT's are his......mine are mine. Same with thick skin and tolerance levels...we're all different. What's mean to you may be nothing to me.

Spaw