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Non-Music - Academic Success Question

GUEST,Bruce O. 22 Mar 01 - 12:05 PM
LR Mole 22 Mar 01 - 12:08 PM
Bert 22 Mar 01 - 12:43 PM
Jim Dixon 22 Mar 01 - 12:54 PM
Mrrzy 22 Mar 01 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 22 Mar 01 - 01:14 PM
John Hardly 22 Mar 01 - 01:17 PM
katlaughing 22 Mar 01 - 01:21 PM
Mary in Kentucky 22 Mar 01 - 01:27 PM
mousethief 22 Mar 01 - 01:41 PM
annamill 22 Mar 01 - 02:05 PM
GUEST,Rana 22 Mar 01 - 02:38 PM
dick greenhaus 22 Mar 01 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 22 Mar 01 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Rana 22 Mar 01 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,Kats son 22 Mar 01 - 05:09 PM
mousethief 22 Mar 01 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,Kats son 22 Mar 01 - 05:20 PM
Mary in Kentucky 22 Mar 01 - 05:20 PM
mousethief 22 Mar 01 - 05:25 PM
Little Neophyte 22 Mar 01 - 05:30 PM
mousethief 22 Mar 01 - 05:31 PM
Little Neophyte 22 Mar 01 - 05:36 PM
katlaughing 22 Mar 01 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 22 Mar 01 - 05:48 PM
Matt_R 22 Mar 01 - 05:55 PM
mousethief 22 Mar 01 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 22 Mar 01 - 06:05 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 22 Mar 01 - 06:45 PM
Sandy Paton 22 Mar 01 - 10:10 PM
Sandy Paton 22 Mar 01 - 10:15 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 22 Mar 01 - 10:45 PM
Big Mick 23 Mar 01 - 08:49 AM
Peter T. 23 Mar 01 - 09:09 AM
John Hardly 23 Mar 01 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,Rana 23 Mar 01 - 10:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 12:05 PM

Mary, teaching qualifications can be riduculous at any level. In junior college I had a fabulous math teacher. He was a German Jew with a math Ph. D. under the famous Felix Klein at Goettigen. He was working in Berlin when the Gestapo told him to come to their office the next morning. He went over the border that night, but couldn't get his credentials together. He got to the USA, but without his credentials couldn't get a good job. He first got a job in a private school naval academy (Farragut) in Idaho, then went to my junior college in Bremerton, Wash.

All sorts of good teachers went to Washigton state to get jobs, then found they had to go to college there to get a required course in Washington State History (no exceptions, no matter what other qualifications or their teaching specialty).


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: LR Mole
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 12:08 PM

I won't say more than this: love the subject, like most of the students, enjoy the classroom, am eternally delighted by colleagues. Don't understand the career ladder, don't seem able to play political games and avoid people in suits who care lots about enormous sums of money and their piece thereof. So far, the grownups in suits have left me alone.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Bert
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 12:43 PM

Hi katmeluv, I don't want to get into the semantics here, but I will say I've known people who were an academic success but were absolutely bloody useless at their studied profession. And I've known self educated people who were extremely knowledgable.

I've generally found that self educated people have a broader knowledge base than many academics.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 12:54 PM

Reminds me of what the Wizard of Oz said to the Scarecrow:

"You don't need a brain! You need a diploma!"


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:07 PM

I'd say you can be a success with academic credentials outside academe, but to be an academic success, you have to be in academe. I, for instance, have a lot of "white man's papers" but I don't work in that field, I dabble in it. So I have a PhD in a science, and I teach 1 night a week in that area. But my real, day job is in marketing, and I am successful there. So I am academic, and successful, but would not consider myself an academic success. My old advisor might, from his point of view, though! (*BG*)


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:14 PM

Bert, Broader base fit's me, but I wasn't a great theoretician. I just knew which end of the screwdriver the blade was on, so I could fix what wasn't working. Theories don't often give scaling factors, so experiments are necessary to find out what's 'real' in the theory, and how to scale to real world dimensions.

The great academe was Albert Einstein, who came up with E=H*nu, relativity, Brownian motion (first 'noise' theory) and others, while working in a Swiss patent office. At Princeton he was a sounding board for other theoretician's theories, but never accomplished anything new after coming to the USA. {He died a few years before I did my post-doc there, so I never saw him.)


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:17 PM

Since this post...

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 21-Mar-01 - 09:20 PM

Kat=0
Kat Son=1

Point, game and set!!

...was made AFTER I posted this;
My experience is somewhat "outside the lines" but I acquired my BS on the strength of my professional life.

It's not an honorary degree, but the college recognized that they didn't have anyone as advanced in my field as I, so it was therefore silly for them not to acknowledge the fact by giving me credit hours.

Chalk one up for the "School Of Life"

I will repost my previously invisble post in order to even the score.

Kat 1
Son 1


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:21 PM

Awright! Thanks, John Hardly!!


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:27 PM

John! That wouldn't be that school we all know and **** that uses a lot of red and was in the news yesterday? hmmmm....


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:41 PM

I think we're arguing 2 different points here. One is, "what does the phrase academic success mean in English?" This is the one I answered.

The other is less well-defined, but might be stated, "can you achieve the same sort of thing (learning, knowledge, respect, erudition, your criterion goes here) that someone who is called an academic success has achieved, without being affiliated with a school and/or without having a degree?"

Answers to the first question will not satisfy persons asking the second.

Maybe even Kat and her son were asking 2 different questions, or understanding the conversation in terms of these two very different issues. Perhaps her son thought they were talking about the first question, and Kat thought the conversation was about the second? Only they can answer this one, of course.

Just some thoughts to hopefully clear the waters a little.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: annamill
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:05 PM

Oh well..it's all academic anyway...

L.A.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:38 PM

CamiSu,

I got cut off above!

Two examples:

1. Grad student (science background) TA.ing an engineering course whilst doing his master's. On going to the Ph.D. level, he was required to take the course since he didn't have an engineering background. His TA was someone he TA'd.

2. My brother got caught in the sessional-lecturer trap (equivalent to the perpetual post-doc trap in the sciences - he did pure maths - algebra to be precise. One place would only give 9 month contracts which they kept on renewing for 3 years. If they gave a 12 month contract, they would have had to consider him for a tenured position.

As you said - academia!

Rana

PS - I think this got sent before because I pressed tab and enter


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Subject: Lyr Add: THEIR WAY (parody of 'My Way')
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:49 PM

Re: Academic Success

THEIR WAY
(Bob Blue)

I came, I bought the books, lived in the dorm, followed directions.
I worked, I studied hard, made lots of friends that had connections.
I crammed, they gave me grades, and may I say, not in a fair way,
But more, much more than this, I did it their way.

I learned so many things, although I know I'll never use them.
The courses that I took were all required, I didn't choose them.
You'll find that to survive, it's best to play the doctrinaire way
And so I knuckled down and did it their way.

Yes, there were times I wondered why I had to cringe when I could fly.
I had my doubts, but after all, I clipped my wings and learned to crawl.
I learned to bend, and in the end, I did it their way.

And now, my fine young friends, now that I am a full professor,
Where once I was oppressed, now I've become the cruel oppressor.
With me, you'll learn to cope, you'll learn to climb life's golden stairway.
Like me, you'll see the light and do it their way.

For what is a man? What can I do?
Open your books, read chapter two.
And if it seems a bit routine,
Don't talk to me, go see the Dean.
They get their way, I get my pay.
We do it their way.

@parody @school
Copyright Bob Blue
filename[ THEIRWAY
DT


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:53 PM

Always remember that, no matter how bad your research director is, do it his way until you've got your degree.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 03:18 PM

Apparently Roy Bailey sang that at his retirement party at Sheffield University - came from his mouth, so must be true!

Rana


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Kats son
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:09 PM

Wonderfull reading from all. It is a great forum to analyze. I think that mousthief may be hitting on the truth in message dated 3/22.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:17 PM

Hi Kat's Son! Welcome to Mudcat! We really like your mom. She's definitely a regular here, and speaking just for myself, every single one of us learns something from her nearly every day.

Ciao!

Alex


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Kats son
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:20 PM

Thanks for the greeting. I may have learned something too, but wouldnt admit it.(thats why i dont use punctuation) keep her in the dark.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:20 PM

...first lesson though, kat is not spelled with a capital K! *BG*

And as kat would say: luvyaguys!


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:25 PM

Ah, kat may not be spelled with a capital K, but Katsson may be. Remember F. Frederic Skat?


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:30 PM

After having the opportunity to study under Rick Fielding as a music student I would say that Rick has deserves an honorary masters degree in music from the University of Toronto for his contributions to the field of folk music.

Little Neo, undergrad


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:31 PM

Master's degree?! Doctorate!


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:36 PM

Well I was being serious here Alex. I honestly feel Rick should receive a Masters degree for all the work he has contributed. After that, those University folks would realize he has been working on his doctorate for years and that he should receive recognition for that too.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:39 PM

Hey! He finally came to the Mudcat and gave it a read...after me hounding him for years!! Hiyahoney-son...nice of you to drop by!

Okay, now then, "Kats son" is okay, but(here's my little speech to newbies) there was another "Kat" here before me, so I am "little kay kat."

Oh, and you favourite aunt is "bet" on here. **Big Grin**

luvyason...momkat


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:48 PM

Years study for an advanced degree mean nothing. After (usually) 7 years credits toward a degree expire, and if it's a required course you take it again.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:55 PM

I'm too tired after a 9 hours straight of classes at school to comment!


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 06:02 PM

I'm sorry if I made it seem I wasn't taking you seriously, Li'l Neo.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 06:05 PM

It's easier as a grad student. You get your classes before lunch. Half your exercise is the brisk 1 mile walk to a place that make good hamburgers, then it back to your teaching assistant job (lab instructor of review session tutor). After supper (6:30- 7) you work in the lab on your thesis project to 11 PM, then another mile walk to the nearest tavern for your bedtime beer. You do your studying on weekends.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 06:45 PM

That lab instructor business can be fun. Nurse's lab. sessions especially, as most of them are bored with only old guys like 19 or so around (they went to college to get an Mrs) and don't pay much attention to anything except their neighbor's notes. Sometimes one actually works at her experiment, so all the others are trying to copy her notes. Cozy little knot.

A favorite was connecting the Bunsen burner's rubber hose to the water line instead of the gas line, then when they turned the valve the water quickly sent the Bunsen burner flying, and the burner's tubing whipped around, throwing water everywhere. The nurses were afraid of anything spouting (maidenheads were still valuable selling points for that Mrs in those bygone days), and I had to dash through the water, and make a grab for the valve to cut it off. Got a lot of unexpected baths that way.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:10 PM

This discussion of professors, adjuncts, assistants, etc., reminds me of the classic story told about George Lyman Kittredge, the great ballad scholar at Harvard who did his early studies under none other than Francis James Child. Later in his career, when his friends urged him to acquire a Ph.D in ballad studies, Kittredge was reported to have responded, "I would, but who could examine me?"

About fifty years ago, I was paid to read aloud to four blind students at the University of Washington. Four bucks an hour! But the greatest reward came from the fact that one of these students was a graduate in the History department. As his reader, I was given a stack permit and even a carrel in the stacks. For a kid who had left school just before he turned fifteenat the insistence of the administration (I was a bit of a rebel and expressed it boldly), that stack permit put me in hog heaven. My interest in folklore scholarship had just been kindled, though I knew almost nothing about the available literature on the subject, and the freedom to wander around in the stacks, investigating at random various wolumes, was extremely advantageous.

Access to a good library has remained important to me ever since. When we lived in Boulder, I was allowed the use of the University library, thanks possibly to John Greenway. In London, Caroline and I made regular use of the library at the Cesil Sharp House. When we moved to the boondocks in Vermont, we were forced to build a folklore library of our own -- which is the expensive way to do it -- and it had been put to use not only by us, but by many of our friends since we moved down here to Connecticut.

One last, self-gratifying story. Back about 1963, I was hosting a concert/lecture with Frank Proffitt and Lawrence Older at Goddard College. I spoke about their ballads and songs, their regional traditions, etc., and they presented examples of these in illustration. At one point, one of the school's professors, sitting next to Caroline in the audience, leaned toward her and whispered, "Where did he do his work?" In her sweet and gentle way, she smiled and whispered, "Route 66." Bless her heart. She gave me one of my proudest non-academic moments.

Sandy (conservative enough to think academics need to have academies to represent)


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:15 PM

And good proof-readers to clean up their typing errors!


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:45 PM

At NBS/NIST there were two levels of review for papers. First reader was in the division and the 2nd outside. We got to pick the division reader. We picked the one that knew least about the subject. To get it passed? NO. He/she read what was actually in the MS and got all the typos and all the other glaring simple errors fixed. More advanced readers tend to read what they expect should be there, and often missed most of the simple errors.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 08:49 AM

This is a wonderful thread. Like my friend Rick, I am just taking it all in. I find interesting the differing perspectives of the "academics" vs. the "roads scholars". I would say that under strict interpretation, I agree with Peter T. (as I am often do).

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 09:09 AM

road scholars, I love it. (Route 66! Great story, Sandy).

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 09:21 AM

Hi Mary,

Long time no chat (I miss visiting on PalTalk)! No, the ol' Cream and Crimson actually has a fellow who is the rare bird indeed. He's a scholar and true potter.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 10:04 AM

One must not forget ALL the people that contribute when it comes to academic success. My supervisor gave a party and an Honorary Ph.D to Ed, one of the machinists in the department - he had built all the home-made electron spectrometers in the research group over a 20 year period. We, as students, always attended the machinists Xmas bash - they were more important than the academics in many a way!.

As for scholarly work, I've learned a lot from such "scholars" such as the likes of James Keelaghan (and many more). Indeed much of the world and a lot here can be deemed to be following scholarly pursuits.

Rana


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