Second Chances. Do you give them?

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Naemanson
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 06:27 AM

Thanks, KC, I needed to hear that.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Firecat
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 06:19 AM

It depends on what the person has done as to whether I give them a second chance or not. One of my friends at school said nasty things about ny family and my boyfriend. I didn't give her a second chance.

On the other hand, my boyfriend siad something I misinterpreted to mean he was finishing it with me. It was all sorted out the next day and I gave him a second chance.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 11:06 PM

Thank you a lot catters. I think I'll check out of this thread now, rather than bring it up from the bottom anymore, but you've been really helpful. Some of your personal stories really help me to put my situation with my former friend in perspective.

Martin

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:25 PM

Peter T I think a better question would be WHY did I find her.She was a lovely lady, but, with flaws I couldnt adjust to. OK Matt, with flaws to which I was unable to adjust.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 12:55 PM

Oh, and try not to take it personally. People generally just wander around doing what they do and it's rarely directed at us personally. It might feel that way, but it's more that they're doing their John play, or their Leslie play and we just happen to wander onstage, where we're immediately assigned a role. Sound and fury, signifying not a lot in the scheme of things.

ww

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 12:51 PM

I am emotionally constituted for multiple chances. I can't really help myself. I've been given lots of latitude in my life, I give lots of latitude. "For all have screwed up and fallen short of the glory of Gawd ..." My most emphatic example of this is the fact that I was date-raped in high school and 20 years later I found the guy and gave him the opportunity to apologize and clean up the emotional mess he had created. Which he did -- and I was released from the steel trap that had been dragging on me for so many years.

However, being the forgiving sort, I've often been mistaken for a push-over, or a doormat, and I can assure you that ain't the case. I may forgive, but I don't revert to the same level of innocence. I even trust again, but once I know what someone is capable of, I'm definitely forewarned. And, I do have a line and once that line is crossed, I simply cannot let that person back into my heart again. I might be able to do business with him or her, or to be cordial when our paths cross, but if the deed has been bloody and mean, I figure there's cruelty at the core and I don't have any truck with cruelty. The trick is to be wise as the serpent and innocent as the lamb, doncha' know.

Some people are not capable of real intimacy -- and the essence of friendship is intimacy. If your friend is such a person, then it's fairly predictable that as soon as you start really getting close again, he'll pull the rug out from under you to sabotage the friendship and protect himself. It's not that they do this intentionally, but for whatever complicated reasons arising from whatever childhood decisions, some people just have to turn and run -- and create emotional waste -- when they feel themselves being "gotten to." These people I might have in my life, but I try not to be surprised when they do what they do. Serenity comes from not expecting pears from the apple tree.

ww

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 03:41 PM

Where did you find such a bizarre woman, kendall? (Oh, forget I asked, but it does rise somewhat spontaneously to the mind). You must have needed the eggs real bad.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 02:16 PM

OK, you are forcing me to be specific. What I had in mind as I wrote that, is, my ex wife hated sad songs. She referred to them as "emotional rape". God forbid anyone see her weep! Sure I have a violent side. My reptilian brain is still very much alive. However, My ability to reason and forsee consequences tend to keep that in line. At the other end of the spectrum is feeling nothing at all. I dont like that either, so, I try to "keep her in the channel".

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 02:13 PM

I'm working on NOT giving too many second (and umpteenth) chances - to my kids. Rising 6 they are, and would get away with everything if I let them get away with anything, is how I'm beginning to feel. Timothy asked for popsicles for breakfast and then sulked when I said No... basically, there are places where No should mean No, and other places where No should mean (well, it's been a while, is it still No?) - romance should probably get more second chances than many other things. My X2B used to refuse second chances to anything - didn't like the garnish = We are never coming to this restaurant again! kind of thing. Not my style. As my kids have figured out...(ha ha!)

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 02:00 PM

Why deny what, Kendall? That they exist? Or do you mean why deny the fullest, most violent expression of any of them? There's a huge area in-between those two, as well.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 01:58 PM

Where? where? I love daisys. Seriously, we were born with a wide range of emotions, so, why deny any of them? The concept of yin and yang comes up here. Without black there is no white etc..

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 01:13 PM

Yes, Brett, caution is understandable, but there still may be some perfect daisies waiting to be picked...

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Naemanson
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 06:48 PM

But isn't there a wisdom in not exposing oneself to being hurt again? There may not be a grudge involved, just an excess of caution.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 05:40 PM

Forgiveness was invented for the one who was hurt. It does little for the one who did the hurting. If you hold a grudge for a long time, who does it hurt? you, or the other bloke? In many cases the other doesn't even know or care that he hurt you.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 04:40 PM

I think it was Simone Weil who said that one of the things that separates human beings from the physical laws of the universe is our capacity to forgive, because, when it works, it moves back up the machinery of cause and effect, which nothing else in the universe can do. I think this is a very important hope/belief/truth -- that human beings can break causality from time to time (you could similarly argue that that is what links us to God, who -- depending on your theology -- is always beyond causality). This is one central aspect of Zen practice -- love, like awakening, is the smashing of the predictable.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: John Routledge
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 04:14 PM

There have been many wonderful posts to this thread. Much relates to the experience of the individual in determining how a situation is dealt with.

I came across this today:

We do not receive wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves,after a journey through the wilderness,which no one else can make for us,which no one can spare us,for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world.

Marcel Proust

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 11:30 PM

Well said, Jande.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 10:56 PM

I am right there with you, Peter T and Kendall, as far as the incidents you cited. But that is not the nature of what was asked. This thread was predicated on a personal relationship, such as a friend or lover, and that is why I responded the way I did. In the area of professional relationships the dynamic changes, but not as significantly as one might think. As Saul Alinsky noted, "No one is your friend forever, and no one is your enemy forever". Of course he was speaking from a tactical point of view with regard to community organizing. I can think of one supposed union person, who used his position to screw over some recently organized workers just to politically embarass another union official. I will see this person in a bar someplace, and ..........well, I will let your imagination do the rest. But it will not be intellectual discourse. No forgiveness for those who let their personal politic get in the way of our mission.

Mick

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Jande
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 07:55 PM

I can't help but think of the South African "Truth and Reconcilliation" process that happened not too many years ago. It moved me deeply then and it moves me deeply now, and whenever I think of it.

One never forgets being betrayed. The closer you feel to the betrayer, the more it hurts, the more one needs never to forget.

True forgiveness is something that is drawn out of us by true remorse. Remorse comes from a sharing of truth. You say what this person did to you and how it made you feel. You relive it with them from your side of it. If telling the story doesn't draw remorse then forget it. If telling the story draws only excuses disguised as remorse, forget it.

But if you share the pain their betrayal caused you and they are moved by your pain and ask forgiveness, then look in your own heart and see what you are moved to in return.

A lot of the time we teach people how to treat us by the boundaries we set on our relationships, and by the way we treat ourselves. (Hes has heard this ad nauseum) So it is possible that we are partly responsible for the way they treated us, as someone said above.

Truth and reconcilliation works both ways simultaneously. People can change. And the way to affect that is to keep talking with good will on both sides, and with professional counselling if the relationship is really important to you.

~ Jande

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 07:38 PM

I'd rather be sorry for something I did than for something I didn't. If you don't then you'll never know and always wonder, if you do and it doesn't work, then at least you know, and I'd say it's better to know than to wonder - it'll eat away at you over the years, and you'll find yourself wondering in ten years what would have happened if... Also, it's always easier second time around - there's only a certain amount that one person can hurt you, and being left the second time by a person never hurts as much as the first time. Go get her!

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: wdyat12
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 07:20 PM

I would surely welcome a second chance from a friend I grew up with. I spoke out publicly against an RV campground he and his wife have established in our backyard. He has never forgiven me. I miss going scallop diving with him and just don't think my NIMBY campaign was worth the loss of a friend. I made a serious mistake.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 07:07 PM

I feel the same way about that smirking doofus that sort of won our election.Peter, That bastard with aids is unforgivable, and so are the airheads that made the excuses for him.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 06:08 PM

I don't know about this one.

I give ordinary people a lot of leeway, just because I think life is so hard for everyone, but I can't forgive people who abuse people from positions of power. I was involved in a political struggle over a teacher with AIDS who was sleeping with his unprotected students, and I not only found his conduct unforgiveable, but I never forgave all the people who were trying to come up with excuses for him, and I had to leave the institution. I ended up despising them all, nor, though I understand what was going on, have I mellowed on that. I still get enraged over it.

I find many politicians to be unforgiveable, in part because what they do is so important, and they betray the whole institution, not just themselves, so that they may ask for personal forgiveness, but the institution is degraded irrevocably. And people lose their sense of trust. We had a Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, who is one of the few people on the earth whom I despise, and cannot forgive him. If I met him, I would turn and walk away. My reaction to him is much worse than to many people who have done me personal wrongs.

In terms of personal wrongs, I think it is much harder to deal with people you have wronged, than the other way around. This is especially true when you have wronged people you don't like. It makes you like them even less.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: JeZeBeL
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 05:20 PM

I believe that evryone can change. I can usually forgive and forget, but it does take a long time to heal sometimes. All I can say is that you should not rush in to things, but if you feel enough for this person, and you haev truly forgiven them, then it is most probably the best thing to do. Try it, you might like it........

Peace, love and harmony on whatever your choice may be.

Emma xxxx

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 02:08 PM

Welcome back Kendall.

Don't forget the old Aussie proverb:

Tie your Kangaroo Down.

Rick

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 01:26 PM

Old Arab proverb..Trust everyone, but, tie your camel.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 10:40 AM

So much wisdom here, hardly seems like my opinion will add much, but I will post it anyway.

Marty, if folks weren't willing to give me a second chance for the all the mistakes I have made in my life, hell..........I would be laying in a gutter somewhere dead or dying. I have felt the sting of rejection and hurt........and I have delivered it. The point is to recognize our own weaknesses, so that we may forgive them in others. Kendall's words ring so true when he describes feeling hurt as proof that one is alive. When you extend your heart, even beyond what some would consider prudent, rest assured it will be hurt. But you may also rest assured that you will gain and regain some of the most phenomenal relationships that one can have. You will experience joy, and pain........passion and heartbreak.........happiness and sadness.............in short, you will live and drink the full measure. Or you can stay within the mental walls and live in a world of your own construct. If I were you, I would revel in the pain of the lesson learned, and then extend your hand in love and friendship and wait for the next lesson. Your life will be full, your friends many, and on the last day of this leg of the journey you will be glad you did so.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Naemanson
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 07:07 AM

I think friendship would be easier to rebuild unless it was one of those extraordinary friendships that come close to being a loving relationship.

To my mind there is no closer friend than a lover and when that has been destroyed there is little one can do to rebuild. I think Amos is right. It would take an extraordinary effort to rebuild it and I know she is not one to make extraordianry efforts. She always takes the easy path.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 01:18 AM

Yes, Naemanson I have. Just got home and I'm amazed at how much sharing goes on here. I guess by trying to be circumspect I didn't say that the person who visited me after so long was another guy. Formerly a close friend and buddy. Our falling out was definitely his doing (He did apologize, without re-hashing the whole mess) and he just seems to want to be friends again. I'm willing to try, but I have to feel sure I'm on solid ground here. Maybe there can be a different kind of relationship, but I'm not sure it will ever be as close.

Martin

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 12:19 AM

I would hazard a guess that betrayal after trust won't mend, unless the person does something extraordinary to defend you, conquer your enemies, or pull off some coup in your interests. It would have to be something out of the ordinary, though.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Naemanson
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 11:22 PM

I don't know if Marty is reading this and finding helpful advice but I am. The woman who crushed me last year has apparently changed her mind. I don't know what to do about it but I am reading and considering the words of advice being offered here.

This is the most difficult decision I have ever faced and I feel as though I am trying to do it without enough information. I don't know that the issues have been resolved or that they can ever be resolved. And on top of that is the broken trust.

Second chances? I'd like to say yes but...

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 10:11 PM

For much of my life I lived behind a wall to keep people out. The hell of it is, it also kept ME IN! I finally knocked the wall down and immediately got hurt. It wasn't fatal and I found that it is much better to feel pain sometimes than to feel nothing all the time.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 09:34 PM

Second chances? Yes, no, and maybe. It all depends who...and what the situation is. There are some people whom I have given many, many chances...maybe too many.

There are others I don't give even one chance.

Each case is unique.

= LH

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 08:54 PM

Spaw... it took a while but somebody bit ( go again on this one too, I like setting them up as much as I like biting on them - a double set up; I'm on a roll tonight ). I thought it might be you !

Anyway... OF course, I was obviously referring to the DIScourse which is a part of any INTERpersonal relationship. I can't stop !

As for manual exclusivity, I AM a Hranner, and I can tell you that we Hranners have HIGHLY developed digital dexterity and acuity as well as blazing speed and the ability to vary the beat at will. A magician can pull a rabbit from a hat, but can he pull a ******* from a cat ? Euphemism, Eubroughter.

gnu

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 08:15 PM

Hell gnu, most of us aren't so stupid as to use our hands exclusively anyway. Don't worry about it.......Nobody was listening to silly advice like that anyway.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 07:45 PM

Whoa again. Ignore my advice. It may have helped to lead to a more encompassing discussion of the issue at hand, but no more than that. If I did that, well then, I did help the discussion. Clearly, my advice was as short as the initial description of the situation. In any case, best of luck.

As well, your sharing has helped others. I know you and the other 'Cats have helped me think about a few things I might not otherwise considered.

Thanks all.

gnu

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 07:42 PM

Up above there somewhere, Gnu said,

I never had a hand in it. That's why I divorced.

Uh,Gnu............It wasn't your hand that was supposed to be in it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 06:50 PM

Marty if it's a romantic "second chance" that's a whole different kettle of fish, those have so many "ifs, ands, buts, and so forth, that often second chances end up happening every two weeks and the initial problem is STILL never resolved.

I had a serious problem with the actions of someone about a year ago, and really felt pretty lousy about what I thought was gonna be a nice friendship. The person apologised, but sometimes that's just not enough....at THAT TIME. I've come to know a lot about that person and the pressures they were under that seemed to result in some pretty reckless behaviour at the time.More importantly, THEY became aware of why they acted that way. It's much easier to offer a second chance to someone who's gone out of their way to PROVE that they really are a nice person. That person has.

Years ago, I could be quite acerbic (naturally, I thought I was just being funny) and I know I hurt a few people QUITE UNINTENTIONALLY. If I could find those folks again, I'd say: "What you thought was caustic, was a really shy introvert trying to fit in, just too damn insecure to be around groups of people without acting like a smart-ass."

Hesperis' post rings true to me. You absolutely don't know a person 'til you've had a personal interaction with them. NEVER let someone else poison your mind about a third person, 'cause you simply don't know both sides of THEIR interaction with that person.

Wow, this has got me thinking! Well, Jim did it, so I'm gonna too.

"Alison Grant,(of Cleveland Ohio) if you're out there....I was a lousy boyfriend, and I'm sorry. You deserved better."

Shit, I'd better get back to the "Guitar threads" as well.

Rick

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: tiggerdooley
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 05:49 PM

SECOND chances????? That was so long ago... I lost count at about twenty with CERTAIN people I know!

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 05:34 PM

Is this a romantic relationship, or just a friendship? I'd say in romance, unless you've got whatever it is that Kendall has, second chances are just asking for trouble.

But if we're talking friendship here, I have to disagree with gnu. It may have taken the friend 3 years of counselling and such to both get over whatever was wrong that made them hurt you in the first place, then get the nerve up to even approach you to ask for forgiveness.

Oh yes, there's the other thing. Have they actually APOLOGIZED for hurting you? Or merely asked for a second chance? If just the latter, I'd say no. If they can't admit they have done you wrong and ask for forgiveness, they're not in a place (IMHO) where they can be trusted again.

But if they have asked for forgiveness, and really want to try again, then I'd go with the approach BEK gave: If you want a relationship go into it with your eyes open to the potential. Set your boundaries. Test that person's resolve to be the kind of friend that you need. You have the right for your own self protection.

Go much more slowly than you would with someone you're meeting new. Any close relationship involves letting down our defences, little by little, over a period of time, as the person "earns" it by treating us well after the last defence-slackening. I'm not saying this well, but I hope you get the drift. With someone who has betrayed you in the past, I would move much more slowly in the letting-down-the-defences department, and always be ready to slam them back in place again if it seems necessary.

Contrary to BEK, you may get hurt. Being a friend at all involves the risk of being hurt; there is no other way to be a friend. But it would be a long time before I trusted a second-chancer with anything that would really hurt me. Slow and cautious.

And if they blow it again, for me it would be over, endsville, done-for, finis, das Ziel, khattam-shud.

JMHO.

Alex

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Hawker
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 05:02 PM

fORGIVE BUT TAKE TIME TO FORGET
LUCY

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Wavestar
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 05:02 PM

Sometimes it takes three years. I've got a few people in my past I wouldn't mind trying again with, and it's been that long or longer. Maybe it will happen and maybe it won't. Be on yur guard, you know how they play if they are going to hurt you. But making the assumption that's what they want makes for a very sad world.

-J

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 04:52 PM

well, I didn't realize that Norman and Nancy were ever NOT married.......

Kendall's right --- the fruit is out on the limb and sometimes you gotta take that chance. And if it doesn't work out, okay - but at least you know you tried and you won't be kicking yourself later with "what if."

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 04:49 PM

On the other hand, one can be blind-sided. I'm pretty certain I was. I thought I went into the relationship with eyes wide open, and knowing full well what it was I wanted and expected. After reading a lot, and asking questions of a few pschologists and other mental health types, I've come to the conclusion that I fell in love with a manic/depressive, and didn't have enough experience at the time to be able to identify the condition.

I agree with much of the advice and opinion given here: forgivness is free, trust is earned.
Jim

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Deni
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 04:47 PM

I think, regarding marriages, that what seems like a second chance is often a 300th chance, sothis doesn't apply to relationships that are that close.

BUT I have always regretted not taking the chance to mend a friendship when I was offered the chance. So on hindsight, I'd grab it with both hands if the chance came again.

Like you say. This person is definitely not the same person. It is a person who has learned something about realtionships.

Best of British Luck

D

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 04:25 PM

I never had a hand in it. That's why I divorced.

gnu

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 04:12 PM

I married the same woman twice.That should tell you something. You gotta get out on the limb, that's where the fruit is. Seriously, ask yourself "What is MY part in this?" I'm often baffled by what other people do, but, I have to face the fact that, whatever it was, I had a hand in it.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 04:11 PM

Yes. Bearing grudges tends to poison the mind of the bearer, and it's hard work. But I'd be wary the second time...

Noreen

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: BEK
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 03:58 PM

Forgive--for yourself. It cleanses your soul.

Don't forget. If you want a relationship go into it with your eyes open to the potential. Set your boundaries. Test that person's resolve to be the kind of friend that you need. You have the right for your own self protection.

And, don't let yourself be hurt again.

Subject: RE: Second Chances. Do you give them?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 03:58 PM

Bernard... killing their impudence with kindness. I like it. But, you have to be a real special person to take stuff like that ad infinitum. You may help to make a real human being out of someone, and take great personal satisfaction away with you in more ways than one, but there may also be a toll on you if you're not that special person. I tried for thirteen years to put up with consistent crap in a relationship with my best friend and, in the end, it took a heavy toll. I will not even speak to that person anymore unless it's an emergency - life or death type. Small stuff, ok, but if you're unsure about how the big stuff will affect you, run.

gnu