Baby murdered in Hebron

Subject: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,Irwin in Israel
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 08:59 AM

Last fall, McGrath of Harlow railed against the Israelis when a Palestinian boy, being held in his father's arms, was caught in the crossfire at a riot and gun battle, and killed by an Israeli army bullet.

There was much uproar and many dozens of postings complaining not only about Israelis, but about Jews in general.

The situation now is that Palestinian snipers are firing into Jewish homes. Yesterday, they murdered an Israeli Jewish baby, all of ten months old.

It speaks volumes that McGrath of Harlow and his friends here at Mudcat are silent when Palestinian murderers kill our babies.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,Gern
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 09:05 AM

All innocent victims are equally tragic, no matter who the culprit is. Let's not use this single occasion to slam either side or score personal points against another while families are mourning. The only lesson we can learn from the tragic and arbitrary violence of BOTH sides is to resolve the Palestine Question with justice, so that peace can take root.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 09:19 AM

Anyone who thinks that someone here at the Mudcat would be happy about a dead baby reguardless of it's background has got to be a complete idiot. Lets let this thread die.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 09:22 AM

Also, as the child of someone killed by anti-American terrorists, I prefer to reserve the term Murder for attacks against individuals. If the carbombers had been gunning for Dad individually, then I would say that he had been murdered. As the attack was against Americans in general, I do not consider that my father was murdered, but that he was killed in an act of war, or bad luck for being at the Embassy when it was bombed. The fact that Dad wasn't at war with anyone doesn't change that. I also don't feel you can blame individual people for media effects - had there been a photographer at this other attack, things might be different. Think about Elian, for instance. Without the media frenzy it would have been a simple case.

I am personally almost to despair over the Israel/Palistine issue. I don't believe that either government wants peace, nor am I so sure about the populaces. Reminds me of the Kosovo and other Yugoslav conflicts - these race/ethnic/you-name-the-bundary issues arise from hatreds stemming back almost to prehistoric times. That makes them very hard to counter with reason, which is the only true weapon of a peacemaker. In the Yugoslav case, I have despaired. I still have some hope for the area around Jerusalem, but it is fading fast.

Note also that in both these areas, the underlying argument is religious, so faith is involved, making it even HARDER for reason to take root. Were it not for religious conflict, my father would likely still be alive, or at least he wouldn't have been killed by (Islamic) terrorists.

There, I hope that I have now spoken volumes.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 09:38 AM

Mrrzy - someone I care about deeply has been in a similar situation to yourself. He remains one of the most non-judgmental, well-balanced, fair-minded people I have ever known, and does not rail against the group responsible, but is just bitter that such a situation continues. Believe me, you are speaking volumes.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:00 AM

You must remember that there is only so much we get in the news here, for whatever reason. I have not heard the story of which you speak. Perhaps sometimes we don't comment simply because we're unaware of what's happening.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:03 AM

I have nothing against Moslems, or Lebanese, or any other group to which those involved in Dad's death belong. I do have a lot against some of their teachings, but individuals are responsible for their own actions, or ought to be. I don't even think I can blame the mullahs who incited the particular bombing that killed Dad (and 60 some-odd other people) - I blame the bombers, and they're dead. What I am most bitter about is the failure on the part of the American government to treat terrorism as a real threat. Look at the bombings in Dar es Salaam and Nairobi. Look at the Lockerbie bombing. Hell, look at the Challenger explosion. All are fine examples of the government (OK, it was a different branch of the government in the NASA case, but still, same thing) being warned of danger, and deciding to ignore the warnings because "it would look so good" if (whatever they were trying to prove) worked. And if it fails, it's only some human lives, not anything involving National Security, right? (At least that seems to be the argument to me.) So every time the exact same thing happens, and civilians die because the goverment wanted to look good more than it wanted to protect them, I become more embittered, but only about the US government. I still cherish great hopes for individual humans, and reason overcoming (blind) faith. In the absence of any data, I might add, so maybe it's that I, unreasonably, have faith in humanity! Quelle idée!

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 12:14 PM

When children get killed by accident, for example in irresponsible crossfire, that's a tragedy. When they are intentionally targetted by the killer, that's an obscenity.

I can't see how it makes any difference whatsoever whether that child is a Jew, a Muslim, a Catholic or a Protestant. It's another life destroyed, and the person who pulled the trigger knows what they did, and will have to live with it, whichever side they are on, whatever uniform they wear or don't wear.

Double standards, and the politics of the last atrocity -those are the building blocks of a wall of hate that someday has to be dismantled, bit by bit.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 01:26 PM

A bit of respect for UN resolutions would not go amiss - starting with America, Britain and Israel, if only because they (we) should know better.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 01:35 PM

McGrath of Harlow, one problem with that is that (where you say "the person who pulled the trigger knows what they did, and will have to live with it" - is that with these religious-based conflicts, they often do live with it --in delight. After all, they are now one step closer to THEIR ONE TRUE god, and there is one fewer follower of the FALSE god of the other guys. Of course, both sides think the exact same thing, and therein lies the rub. *sigh* But I still think that had their been a press photographer around, it would be more in the news here than it's being. This latest unfortunate and obscene death, I mean.

Fibula Mattock, you can give my email to your friend, if they want. There are things going on now with these bombings...

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 01:35 PM

This is the first I heard of it. I deplore random violence, and acts of terrorism.

Yet I have some empathy for people who have been driven out of their homes and treated like animals (or worse) for 50+ years. Are they shooting back? Hardly surprising. Rock-throwing only goes so far.

Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 01:40 PM

A dead baby is a dead baby. An act of terrorism is an act of terrorism. Murder is murder. I deplore all of the above, but it is going to keep happening until we find a new way to run the planet.

Blood is red........no matter how it's shed.

Great beginning there, somebody that can write wanna finsh it?

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:05 PM

Yeah Mousethief, they Palestinian snipers are shooting back at little ten month babies being rocked inside their nurseries.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:25 PM

If I had to defend this act, which I don't, I would say it's not much worse than anything the Israelis have done to the Palestinians over the last 50 years. As it is, I think that shooting babies is deplorable. I thought I made that clear; obviously people with an axe to grind have a harder time understanding clear English than the rest of us.

You steal a people's homeland, force them into squatter's camps (or worse), and then shoot at them, fire rockets at their apartment buildings (I've seen the photos), close down their borders, and in every possible way treat them as animals.

And then scream and tear your hair out when they take up arms against you.

Who's the stupid one here?

Unfortunately modern Israel has shown that even the world's most horribly persecuted underdog ethnic group can become a brutal oppressor in one short generation.

You go on living in your own little dream-world, Irwin. The rest of us are starting to wake up.

Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:39 PM

(after this one, I'm outta this thread)

Yes, Jews are and have been persecuted. No, Jews are not the only persecuted minority on the planet.

Are Jews the "most" persecuted? I don't know, ask some of the others like Tutsi's and Hutsi's, Serbs, Romany, Afghani women,American citizens with non white skin, or Palestinians........long list there. Is there a Prize in Paradise for "Most Persecuted"? I seriously doubt it.

Prize in Paradise for Dead Babies? Who knows? first you have to believe in Paradise.......it's all DISGUSTING but like I said before, until we find SOME OTHER WAY TO RUN THE PLANET, IT'S GOING TO KEEP HAPPENING!!! ("and I don't like anybody very much")........Smothers Bros. quote from over 30 years ago.

somebody come get this soapbox, I'm done with it.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:50 PM

Mousethief, are you a white person living in the United States of America?

If so, what you accuse the Israelis of perpetrating on the Palestinians was done by the white European men who stole the United States from the Indians.

Worse, the white European men committed genocidal wars and acts against the white men.

You, Mousethief, are reaping the spoils of genocide.

Mousethief, unless you are prepared to give up your home and your wealth and dedicate yourself to correcting centuries of wrongs, I have nothing to learn from a hypocritical bastard like you.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:52 PM

My appologies, in my anger, I wrote: "Worse, the white European men committed genocidal wars and acts against the white men."

Obviously, I meant to say the genocidal wars were committed against the Indians by the white Europeans who formed the U.S.A.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Grab
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:54 PM

None of us are defending the actions of the individual Palestinian who did this. It's a tragedy for the family of that child. Let's get that straight.

Irwin, as with the various threads on Northern Ireland, etc, we can only express what we think. We're not there on the ground, so we don't know what you and your friends and family are going through. The likely reason we're silent is simply that it didn't appear on the news over here. We none of us read the newswires full-time, we're not professional journalists, so we're limited to access to the situation via intermediate sources - BBC, CNN, etc.

But I would advise you to regard the numbers of ppl killed. I was going to write "statistics", but that's wrong. None of them was just a "statistic", each was a person, with their own beliefs and as much right to live peacefully as you or I. And comparing the numbers of Palestinians killed by Israelis, the numbers who may yet die from deprivation of access to hospitals and medical attention in the blockades, versus the number of Israelis killed, you can't help but get the impression that it's totally one-sided. Let's be honest, firing live rounds against kids throwing stones is plain wrong. Disagree if you like, but if you do, please explain _why_ it's OK to use rifles against stones and bottles.

And all this courtesy of your new Prime Minister, Mr. Sharon. Cheers Ariel mate, hope you're real glad.

Grab.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:57 PM

Well, if you must know, Irwin, I am part Blackfoot Indian. Some of my ancestors cruelly subjected other of my ancestors.

But that's none of your fucking business, actually, and tying Israeli atrocities to American atrocities is spurious and self-serving bullshit.

Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:57 PM

Oh, and I'm not a bastard. So fuck off, shithead.

Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:09 PM

Okay, sorry everybody, I got a little carried away there. This post is more rational, I promise.

So let me see if I understand you, Irwin. Israel has a right to do whatever it wants to the Palestinians until America gives America back to the Indians? Yeah, sure. Everybody in the world has a right to persecute and oppress because of what the USA did to the Indians. And until the USA makes amends fully, nobody in the world can be criticized for anything they do.

Crazed, machete-wielding Tutsis slashing the Hutus to ribbons? That's okay. Look at what America did to the Indians.

Chinese crushing the culture and religion of Tibet? that's okay. Look what America did to the Indians.

Indonesians brutally murdering East Timorese? That's okay. Look what America did to the Indians.

Sinhalese murdering the Tamil in Sri Lanka? That's okay. Look what America did to the Indians.

White South Africans were keeping the blacks from voting, owning property, living where they want? That was okay. Look at what America did to the Indians.

Your logic is hard for me to get, Irwin. Two wrongs don't seem to make a right on my calculator.

Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:12 PM

In some other thread, some other time on Mudcat, I remember Mousethief saying he was a Christian. Based on what he's written above, he is certainly not any kind of Christian that Jesus would have recognized.

Tonight, I will pray that Mousethief's children are never subjected to random violence.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:15 PM

Jesus doesn't realize His people make mistakes, and need forgiveness? Hmmm. Seems to me He said specifically that he came for sinners, not the righteous, which is why I need him so much.

I thank you for your prayers, Guest (I assume you're Irwin), and also pray that your children and neighbors and loved ones remain free from the effects of the violence that surrounds you.

alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:19 PM

Mousethief,

Christians do not say "fuck off, shithead."

And to the person who said that this event was not covered on the news. I saw it on CNN and I've spoken with people who saw the stories on American network news programs and in American newspapers.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:27 PM

You are correct that it is not a Christian thing to say, and I did apologize. I will apologize to you directly, if that is what you require: Irwin, I am sorry for calling you names and telling you to f*** off. It was wrong, I was wrong to do it, and I am sorry.

Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:44 PM

Remember folks, it's better to assume that an anonymous "guest" and its posts are non-existent than that the guest is Irwin or anyone else.

I have seen the incident reported on BBC and Sky TV and for a start it seems wildly unlikely that the baby was the sniper's specific target. Both reports suggested that about 30,000 Palestinians in the immediate area "might as well be in prison," such are the terms of the curfews under which they live their lives. I do believe that the Israelis would do more for long-term stability in the region by showing some understanding of the Palestinians' case than by voting into office discredited people like Sharon. The fact the Jews have endured a unique scale of persecution down the ages (much of it from the Christian churches, let's not forget) is not a carte blanche to find an even more vulnerable group than themselves and treat them like shit.

After all that, it's only fair I should say (as I've said it so often about the IRA in other threads) that anyone with a gun in his hand is in the wrong, whoever he kills, and whether by mistake or not.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:51 PM

A thread about this should be a thread about grief and mourning, not about making political points. I was going to say cheap political points, but they aren't cheap when people trade in the grief they should feel for a child being killed to buy them.

I don't know the facts here, nor does anyone. We are fed stories with the details air-brushed out, to suit the propaganda version of the side putting-out the story. I can't believe stories in which when one side kills a child it's an accident, and just one of those things, and when the other does it, it's a calculated crime, justifying all kinds of vengeance.

The killers are maybe the only people who do know the truth, and they aren't talking. Or perhaps they are, and the people who give the orders and put out the stories know as well. Both sides.

The killers know in every case whether they were intentionally aiming to kill children - a boy out shopping with his father, a baby in his mother's arms, a child throwing a stone, framed in a sniper's telescopic sights...

Tragic accidents or bloody atrocities, the children are dead either way. Hundreds of them now.Most of them Arab children, some of them Jewish children. As if that made any difference - only a monster would think it could, you'd think, you really would. But there seems to be no shortage of such monsters for whom that kind of thing does actually seem to matter.

A time for every purpose under heaven. Right here and now, a time to weep. For the children, and the killers. And the people who look on, and turn into monsters, as they pick and choose which deaths matter and which don't.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 07:16 PM

Amen, McGrath.

Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: harpmolly
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 09:12 PM

Don't apologize, Alex. Whether or not the GUEST in question is indeed Irwin, he (or she) is certainly supporting Irwin, and this thread was started by Irwin in an obvious attempt to start a fight.

Alas, the 'Catters were not being sufficiently provoked--the replies given were entirely too reasonable and not nearly volatile enough--so our GUEST decided to step up the attack in a more confrontational fashion. You were unfortunate enough to be the target, and frankly, I would have responded the same way, if provoked in that fashion.

You're a class act, as you showed by apologizing and staying calm thereafter. Shall we follow Wesley's advice and "let this thread die"?

Signing off,

Moll

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,Irwin in Israel
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 09:40 PM

I am not the Guest that Alex/Mousethief has been having an irrational argument with.

I started the thread because I surprised at the silence from Mudcat in response to the murder of a baby by a Palestinian sniper. I recall the outrage here when a Palestinian boy was killed when he was caught in the crossfire; in particular from McGrath of Harlow.

The responses from McGrath in this thread have been more than reasonable and I applaud his sense of justice.

Alex, I do think that you are ill informed about the complexities of the issues in the Middle East.

By the way, I have been an active mempber of Peace Now for many years and I am involved in several groups working for social justice and peace with the Palestinians. There are millions of Israelis who are committed to peace and justice.

I did not vote for Sharon. The reason that many did was because of the Palestinian response to the peace initiatives of Barak.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From:
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:46 PM

I don't have offhand a site that will address care for this child, but for the Palestinians, here is one I found. i don't know anything about it but they bring children here for medical care. http://www.wolfenet.com/~pcrf/ If I can find a way, I will personally go to this area and care for any child, any side.

I think we must all condemn the violence, but must also look with wide open eyes at the whole situation. We need to start from fresh with the history of it, go to the original sources etc and try to make sense of it. Then we have to try to come up with solutions.

One solution I think is for everyone to admit the biggest problem is overpopulation (along with that goes water). For Sharon to call for 1 million new settlers, many of them Americans, is provocative. There should be satellite "homelands" for both sides of the conflicts, along with primary homelands. Like we have Mother Ireland, with hubs in the US, Australia, Canada etc. We are still Irish. There could be no Ireland and yet there would always be one. Same with Israel. Same with Palestine. Hub and satellites, with satellites providing a lot of the farming. And we will never understand the Palestinians until we understand their attachment to their olive trees and how traumatized they remain at the loss of their orchards. To those of us who are urban, if they gave us an equivalent house we might say fine...but these attachments run very very deep and must be addressed and certainly the destruction of orchards etc. must not be done wantonly or provacatively.

mg

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,geordie
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:53 PM

All this thread proves is how woefully ignorant people are when it comes to history...nothing is as simple as them and us........this is a complicated issue and "Informed" opinion is needed to resolve it. If you can"t help..don"t throw inbridled ignorance into the mix.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:21 AM

Most of the dead children in the world don't make it to CNN, and most don't even have a website--I saw a number yesterday, 35,000 children die everyday(who knows where, who knows why?), the ones we hear about are the ones that are easy for someone to use to publicize something--the need for gun control or the need for legislation, proof that some people are no better than animals, proof that someone cares more about profits than humanity,or proof that children's beauty pageants lead to unbelievable horror.

Want to sell a paper? Want to sell a legislative program? Just bring out the dead children--it is a sure way to raise the emotional pitch--maybe even to encourage a Tim McVay to avenge the outrage--

Soon to be published letters show that he is so preoccupied by the terrible death inflicted by federal agents on the Branch Davidian children in Waco that it has yet to enter his mind that he murdered even more children himself--and so it goes....

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:18 AM

So now a Palestinian baby must be shot to even things up, and then another Israeli baby, and so on.. In the words of Tommy Sands: " And another eye for another eye, 'til everyone is blind."

Seamus

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:19 AM

A picture is worth a thousand words, alright, and that is what this boils down to. The photo of the Palestinian Father and his son cowering in helpless fear behind a tiny barrier, the son's eyes pried open in fear and pain, the Father's doomed attempt to shelter the boy with his own body, the pathetic knowledge that they were killed seconds later, these things render political arguments about the circumstances somewhat trivial and academic. Those who saw the picture saw the ancient injustice of families and children crushed by brute, stupid force.

If a corresponding picture of the baby murdered in Hebron existed, the same outrage would be voiced: How long will we continue to tolerate the death of innocents in the name of political power struggle? The answer, I'm afraid, is that it will continue as long as there are men whose hatred for one another consumes everything else around them.

I will be forever haunted by a photograph that appeared on the front page of our local newspaper after the bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma city. In it, a big fireman in yellow protective gear carried in his arms the limp, bloodied body of a year-old girl who had been killed in the blast. Tears came to my eyes when I saw it, and I felt pain, but also hatred for someone who would do this to achieve his ends. And so, I suppose, the anger nurtures itself in spite of the plain fact that what we owe the innocents of the world, and ourselves, is some measure of pity, and some measure of effort to put a stop to that tragic cycle.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:20 AM

so, "let's sit down at the table..." ooops, I promised to stay out of this thread.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:03 AM

Irwin, I'm sorry I mistook that other guest for you. You seem like a very reasonable person, and as the Psalmist says, "Let a good man strike or rebuke me in kindness, but let the oil of the wicked never anoint my head."

You are correct, I certainly don't know all there is to know about the situation, and I could stand to learn a lot more about both sides. What do you suggest, Irwin?

I don't think everything I said was irrational, however. Two wrongs still don't make one right, and atrocities in one place never excuse atrocities somewhere else.

Moll, your kind words are very comforting, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Again I apologize to everybody for subjecting you to the sort of language that I abhor in my clearer moments. I wasn't lying when I claimed to be a Christian, as the anonymous GUEST seemed to assume. And I wasn't lying when I said I was imperfect and in need of Grace.

It's hard to be coldly rational and objective when you have a stake in what's being talked about. I daresay most of you here at Mudcat don't know many Palestinians personally. I do. A very dear old lady at my church was born and raised in Bethlehem, and lived there until her entire family was turned out of their homes by the Israeli government. Then she moved first to Peru, and then to the USA. She still has family in the area, and they send letters and photographs of the damage Israeli rockets do to their homes when they are fired into civilian neighborhoods. This pains my heart, and when I hear somebody say something like, "well until you give up your home to an American Indian, you have no right to say anything about Israeli atrocities," it curdles my blood, both for its stupidity and for its callous disregard for humanity.

I would dearly love to see a peaceful and just solution to the problems of Israel/Palestine. Indeed, I pray for just this thing. May it come to pass!

your opinionated mouse,
Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:04 AM

P.S.

My mother was, in fact, married at the time of my birth.

Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Firecat
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 06:01 AM

I don't know why people are fighting anyway. There's a song called "Seven Seconds" and it says :-

"And when a child is born into this world
It has no concept of the tone of skin it's living in"

That is exactly right. Everyone's human, no matter what they look like or what religion they are, so what's the point of discrimination and hatred on those grounds?

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: RichM
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 08:47 AM

Man (and Woman) are genetically aggressive apes. Not a slur, that's simply what we are.
And though people of good will and should continue to try to resolve conflicts, it does no good to ignore this facet of our primitive nature.
Sometimes words do not work, and only time--sometimes a LONG time-- can dampen the fires of hatred and injustice.

As a Canadian of Irish extraction, I feel this keenly. I would not be here except for the brutal results of famine in Ireland in the 19th century. And still the Irish conflict continues....

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 08:53 AM

Thanks Irwin for that. The easier way when we say something that goes too far is to find a way to show we were right all along. But that's how wars build up, both silly flame wars in places like this, and real wars on the ground where children get killed.

What saddens me - well, it all saddens me, but this is one special aspect of the sadness - is the ratchet effect of atrocities.

There's a saying in football "get your retaliation in first", a sort of semi-serious joke. But the thing is, in all the brutality in the Holy Land, noone ever seems to say in face of some appalling new atrocity, from either side "someone has already got the reprisal in for that" - and yet every time, they have, cup filled up and running over. So instead of this baby's death being seen in the context of the deaths of all those other children already in their graves over the past few months, there was a fresh reprisal bombardment, and a two year old infant among those in intensive care. An Arab baby this time. Who's keeping score?

Nothing unique about that, just the same thing happens in relation to Northern Ireland, and anywhere else where lookalike neighbours are wading into each other in internecine conflicts. It's what's meant by the term I used, "the politics of the last atrocity" - the ethically selective memory wipes the slate clean of all "our side" has done in the build up to the last atrocity "their side" has come up with, and a new starting line is drawn - knowing full well the others operate on these lines as well, but with a different calendar of atrocities.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,Irwin in Israel
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 09:09 AM

Alex,

Thank you for returning civility to this discussion.

In looking back over the postings, I would like to call your attention to one of your statements:

"Unfortunately modern Israel has shown that even the world's most horribly persecuted underdog ethnic group can become a brutal oppressor in one short generation."

I must give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not anti-Semitic. However, your statement equates the actions of an entire world-wide Jewish community with those of one state. As a Christian, I'm sure you would not want to be tarred with every brutality committed in the name of Christianity. Many Jews around the world, and many Jews within Israel, work hard for peace and social justice every day. Your statement was, whether intentional or not, hate-mongering and counter-productive to finding a solution.

Regarding the woman in your church that you wrote about. Yes, some Arabs were forced from their homes in 1948. Many more left at the encouragement of the surrounding Arab countries who pledged to "drive the Jews into the sea." Many more than that stayed in Israel. While their lives in Israel are not perfect, they enjoy greater rights and freedoms, and in most cases, prosperity, than the citizens of any Arab country in the Middle East.

Furthermore, it's not as well publicized as the plight of the Palestinian refugees, but you should also be aware that the number of persecuted Jewish refugees that were forced out of the various Arab countries after 1948 far exceeds the number of Palestinians forced out of Israel. The difference is that Israel accepted all of the Jewish refugees as citizens while the Arab countries forced the Arab refugees into squalor as a political tactic.

By the way, Ariel Sharon's Likud political base in Israel is largely made up of the Jews, and their descendants, who came from the Arab countries allied with the religious right wing. In other words, people who suffered at the hands of the Arab regimes.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 09:36 AM

I considered starting a thread with this title Palestinian child shot dead near Hebron to sort of tweak the nose of the Irwin Guest. Not that I support one side of this fierce battle of hatred over the other - but to remind him, and all others that atrocities and tragedies are happening on both sides.

When human beings (not just Jews or Palestinians) give in to their hatred and rage against their enemies - blood is shed carelessly and furiously. Innocents are torn and killed along with combatents. This is a fact of human nature. There has already been listed many other instances of man's inhumanity to man in this thread ... I dare say all are accurate.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 11:07 AM

So I take it that this argument is about who has the moral superiority when it comes to killing babies.

Can someone tell me which side is winning ??

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 11:35 AM

Wes, you mean which side is killing the most babies, or which side is winning the PR war?

Irwin, you are right, the statement as I made it made it sound like I was saying all Jews are responsible for the atrocities committed by the state of Israel, and I'm sorry about that -- of course I realize this is not the case.

I don't think I'm anti-Semitic. I won't say "some of my best friends are Jews" because it's trite and racist and also because it's not true -- I don't know very many Jews at this point in my life (except one of the kids my teenage boy hangs with). In general I try not to assign qualities to people based on their race or ethnicity or religion. Near as I can tell, most people are an awful lot like most other people, current company included.

However I'm not at all certain I'm a Zionist, if that means favoring an explicitly Jewish state within the borders of ancient Israel. I realize the current situation is not one that was calculated or designed by the current population of the modern state of Israel, but largely the results of circumstances beyond their control. But not entirely beyond their control. They didn't force Britain to do what she did in 1948, nor did they force the Arab world to react to the creation of the state of Israel in the way that it did. But regardless of all these things, the fact remains that millions of Palestinians were forced from their homes in 1948, and afterwards, in an act which, if it occurred today in Serbia, would be called Ethnic Cleansing. You are right that the Arab world has a lot to answer for, in the way that these refugees were received (or not received) into the neighboring Arab countries. But I would say the state of Israel has a lot to answer for in the way that they were made refugees in the first place, and have been treated since then.

Racism (or discrimination on the basis of religion, which as far as I know has no simple one-word title in English) of any kind is an ugly thing, and the way Jewish people in the surrounding Arab states were treated after the founding of the modern state of Israel is deplorable. The situation in that part of the world (as you of course are well aware) is a very complex and ugly one, a legacy of over 2000 years of racism, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and other horrible human rights abuses at the hands of Pagan, Muslim, Christian, and now Jewish, powers.

I realize there are no easy answers to all these questions, and am very pleased that people like yourself are working for peaceful and equitable solutions. May the God of Abraham guide us toward those solutions.

Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,Irwin in Israel
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 11:57 AM

Alex,

You just wrote: "the fact remains that millions of Palestinians were forced from their homes in 1948."

I don't want to degenerate into a numbers war, but the actual fact is, about 600,000 Palestinians left in 1948. Some were forced out, ***most*** left at the encouragement of the surrounding Arab countries.

That there are several million Palestinians today, has to do with the global population explosion of the past 53 years. The population of the entire world has quadrupled in that time period, more proportionately in the poorest populations.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:04 PM

I stand corrected.

Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:20 PM

I will repeat my question even if no one is able to answer it.

This started as a thread about the death of babies. Now some of you are trying to figure out who's right or wrong in the mid-east. Is your goal to discover who has the right to shoot babies with high powered rifles ?? Who is more justified ?? Who has the moral high ground ??

The kind of nit-picking going on here ends in misery. There are no "better thans" or "Yeah - but's" that apply. The fact that any of you would try to score points from a situation like this is abhorrent to me.

Give it up. Get off of your damn computers and go out somewhere and make this world a better place to live in until NO CHILD OF ANY SORT is under the gun. Until EVERY child has a chance to grow up and live to it's full potential.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:26 PM

Wesley, people being forced out of their homes, herded like cattle, treated like prisoners when they have committed no crime -- this is not nit-picking.

The baby-killing is a symptom of something much larger, which until it's solved, will (alas!) produce more and more dead children, as well as adults.

We're not trying to "score points" -- we're trying to understand a very difficult and complex situation, because until we understand it, we can't do anything to solve it.

Yelling at the Israelis and Palestinians, "Stop it! Somebody is going to get hurt!" isn't going to solve the problem, as much as you might like it to.

Of course every child should have the right to grow up in safety. Do you think Irwin or I don't know this? You remind me of the line in Tom Lehrer's brilliantly biting satire, Folk Song Army:

We're the folk song army
Every one of us cares
We all hate poverty, war, and injustice
Unlike the rest of you squares.

Guess what, Wes? We all hate these things. Not just you.

Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: harpmolly
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:42 PM

Okay, I think it's my turn to issue an apology.

I'm sorry it comes so late--my last post was written literally as I was running out the door at work, and I didn't have access again until this morning.

Irwin, after reading the rest of your posts, I withdraw my statement that you started this thread "in an obvious attempt to start a fight". I understand that this is an issue that pains you deeply, and one you are personally committed to. My response was aimed more toward the anonymous Guest who was so determined to provoke Alex.

I will say, however, that it's unfair for you to accuse Mudcatters of placing more emphasis on one child's death than another's. We did not personally create the Middle East conflict, and most of us are not embroiled in its midst as you are, so we can only look at it from the outside, glean what we can from the (admittedly sensationalized and biased) media coverage, and hope to be as objective as we can. I'm sorry if our outrage and sadness didn't meet your standards. Perhaps we should start a clipping service to ensure we are all equally informed at all times of all sides of every issue? That is the only way to ensure that no one will feel slighted.

For what it's worth, I work at a Jewish Community Center in Oregon. I am not Jewish, but I live and work immersed in Jewish culture. And those around me are all very conflicted about this issue. There are those of my co-workers who share your views; there are those who do not. Several of my co-workers have traveled to Israel in the recent past and have come back haunted by the issues they have had to face. It's not easy for anybody. There is very little untainted moral high ground on either side.

I'm going to stop now, because I never intended to say this much. But I am sorry that I unfairly attributed your motives, Irwin. Please accept my apology.

Molly

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:51 PM

Prejudice against Arabs is just another face of anti-semitism. A very very prevalent form. No less disgusting than the face that concentrates on hating Jews.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:57 PM

You're right Alex - and I'm so wrong. Sitting on a computer in the safety of our homes IS the best way to fix the world's problems. And going back and forth over which side has been wronged the most is the best way to save the lives of children.

I pray to God that you never have to hold a dying child in your arms like I did three months, nine days and six and a half hours ago. Because then you would realise how silly and useless this thread really is. And such a huge waste of time and energy.

I'm out of this thread. Good luck to all of you.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:09 PM

Here's the 'Middle East problems' thread Irwin (Goldenberg?) has mentioned. Read both threads in comparison to see the many similarities. For instance, both start with a complaint about silence....

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:06 PM

I once said something about those who nurture hate and anger, and hold onto it like a warm blanket. This thread is a fine example of that.

As long as people use the death of babies as suitable ammunition in an argument, or find it an excuse to retaliate, this will continue. The hatred, even in the guise of righteous indignation, that allows you to see an entire group of "them" as prime for killing is the enemy. Not the people.

People who can't learn that are doomed to kill and be killed forever.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:36 PM

Wes, I must respectfully disagree. Sitting here at my computer, I am able to exchange ideas and words with a man halfway around the world, and work through some of our disagreement and come to a better understanding (at least I have; Irwin will of course have to speak for himself).

Talking with people is much better than shooting them or lobbing bombs. Any peace that comes in the middle east or anywhere else will have to come from talking, talking, and more talking. The internet is just another method for exchanging words with other people, all over the world. And that is not a bad thing.

I for one am glad this thread exists. How can we ever solve our differences if we don't talk about them?

Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 04:34 PM

Two friends asked me to read this thread. I had seen the AP reports and knew what had happened. I was saddened and in my own selfish interest, I just didn't open this thread because it hurts my heart.

I believe it is good to discuss and try to understand the region and what has happened and is happening there. But, the bottom line is another baby has died and we grieve.

Does anyone know the name of this baby? Will we light a candle for him, for one night of Light, and ask that Divine Peace prevail and open the hearts and minds of all involved? Can we use our powers of mind, heart and will to envision a blanket of Peace descending not just on this region but on the whole of Earth? I am not saying this is all it takes, but it is a positive action which can swell with the interlinking of minds, hearts and wills. NOT to envision the details of how it will work out (leave that to God/Allah, Goddess/Great Spirit/Cosmic/whomever to work out), JUST that THERE BE Peace.

All in all, such an action is much more likely to have a positive effect than any handwringing, worry, and/or arguing and pointing fingers.

Blessed Be to All,

kat

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 04:42 PM

Talking isn't the only way we break through barriers of mistrust, and it's not the best way either, often enough. But it can be a good way.

Learning to listen to what other people who don't agree with you are saying is never a waste of time, and nor is talking in a way that makes it possible for other people who don't agree with you to listen. If people in the middle of it listen to people who don't matter, outsiders, maybe it can help in listening to the peiople who do matter on the other side.

Joining in the shouting from safety of the grandstands - that would be and is a waste of time.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,Irwin in Israel
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 04:50 PM

Kat,

The baby's name was Shalhevet Pass. She was shot in the head while being held by her father, Yitzhak Pass, inside their home. Yitzhak was also shot, in the leg.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 05:09 PM

The 11 year old boy shot dead on Wed by Israel soldiers near Hebron was name was Mohammed Al Darwish.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 05:30 PM

Thank you, Irwin, and Jed. May we bring Peace here and unite in sending out whatever thoughts of goodwill we can muster to all involved and light a candle for both children? I mourn them both. Perhaps you would like to read the new thread I just posted, "In Memoriam for Many."

In Peace Profound,

kat

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,skarpi Iceland from home.
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 05:55 PM

Halló all, once again I am reading a thread where people are " fighting with words " about sad moments In our history, there seems that there always have to be war or fight about what? Why cant we be brothers and sisters and live In peace? I still cant understand why the Isreal and Palestina are fighting and I am not gonna try, I said In a thread once that we should all respect each other faith, catholic, Islam , Christian or anything else. In Iceland we do not have an Icelandic army and I hope that we will never have one ( maybe thats the reason why I cant understand this), I think the old Viking In the past had enough killing here In Iceland. So I hope that the peace will come soon at your Country´s ( Isreal and Palistina ) And seeing on this thread that you are fighting with words and what you think about what Is done, Is not gonna help. So I also hope that the people of the Mudcat Town are gonna respect eachother and live In peace.

From Iceland, with love and warm whishes to you all skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 06:51 PM

Hi Irwin - just letting you know I've seen youre later posts and I'm sorry if I counted you among Sharon's supporters. I didn't mean to make that assumption. People who take your line while actually living there in Israel get a lot of respect from me.

For my own information, is Zionism a fair term to use where the aim is to criticise aggressive Israeli state policy rather than the whole Jewish diaspora?

Wes, you said the nit-picking here would end in misery, whereas in fact it started with misery. I'm with Mousethief (for a change!) and others here who see this sort of debate as one of the huge values of Mudcat.

Lonesome, there was in fact tv footage of the injured dad and his dead baby, and it truly was a distressing sight. If it was not shown widely at peak viewing times, that might have been a result of the self-censoring that these sort of images always do undergo, whether after road accidents, bombings or whatever. I'm not aware of an anti-Israeli bias in the press, or not here in the UK anyway.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: BH
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 07:42 PM

Killing of innocents on any side is an abomination.

Palestinians vis a vis Israelis----read the history books. What is Israel, what is Palestine, what happened in 1948, what country was Jerusalem the capitol of in ancient days, what does "purchase of land" mean, and a lot of other questions.

Read all that, come to an objective decision and then realize that time, as tides, change things. Then decide right and wrong. But==big but== killing innocents is against the beliefs of all religions. Too bad some people are doing this for alleged "religious" reasons.

Bill H

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From:
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 11:16 PM

It is far more about ownership of land, homes and orchards and villages, and water, than about religion. It is about appropriation of property, by force, by politics, by purchase, and by chicanery in some instances. I believe most of those making the purchases and immigrating were innocent, often victims themselves of terrible circumstances, and did not understand the land was already in possession by others. I do not condone the violence and would meet it with overwhelming force. I wish that the Palestinians would realize that some of their hopes are gone forever, but other hopes remain for statehood and a markedly improved life for their people. I think some of them have to disperse throughout the world. I don't see how the land can support them. Well, my candle is lit. mg

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Sarah T
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 11:57 PM

I have just read this whole thread from the beginning, and it is an amazing conversation. In nearly any other online forum I have seen, conflicts degenerate into flamewars. Here is a flamewar that turned into deep communication. I salute the participants who have shown their passion and who have apologized for statements that were out of line. And I appreciate your ability to go beyond simple truths such as "all killing is wrong" to think and talk about the long history of injury and oppression on both sides that makes the killing so hard to stop.

I myself am a Diaspora Jew who does not agree with Israeli government policy toward the Palestinians. After the recent election of Sharon I let myself despair about peace in that land where cousins and friends now live. I want to find a way back from despair to hope and action. Reading the conversation here is a step for me on that path. Thank you.

--Sarah

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 01:00 AM

In his excellent novella, "Legends of the Fall," author Jim Harrison puts these words in the mouth of his Colonel Ludlow: ...there is nothing more obscene than the meeting of a bullet with the flesh of a child." On this we can surely agree. May the deity of your own belief be with you all.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 01:15 AM

Sarah T and Big Daddy, thank you both, very much for your postings.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Grab
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 08:07 AM

Fionn, there's certainly been plenty of reports deeply critical of the Israeli army and government, especially in the papers where they can do more justice to it. But I don't think they've been biased - rather just reporting the facts of a dreadful situation.

Irwin, it's interesting then that the Likud supporters are largely ppl who've suffered themselves - and suffered quite some time ago too. Are they really still looking for revenge?

Grab.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: polesapart
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 08:43 AM

Irwin, I can`t grasp what you are going through,because I`m safe in New Zealand. You ask the question why don`t people understand? Death is death. It does`nt matter who you are. The situation you are in is a shocking area of the world. The "Crusades", while saying they were following the bible was a crock of sh__t.Here is your problem. I`m glad I live in Kiwi.Please PM.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 08:52 AM

polesapart - living where you are, you're in another country where incoming settletrs displaced/disrupted the community who were living there already. That could mean that, out of the firing line, you are in a good position to bring relevant insights.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GeorgeH
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 09:50 AM

Mrrzy, after starting with profound good sense you, unfortunately, lapse into ignorance. Islam recognises that the God of the Jews is the God of the Christians is the God of Islam.

One question - just WHY is the death of a child so much worse than the death of any other non-combatant? Emotionally I know I feel it to be so, rationally I can't come up with any convincing explanation.

I will also reiterate one point about the Middle East conflict . . it can only be resolved by those with the power to resolve it, which means Israel or the US. As long as the Israelis choose to imagine that the Arabs have no legitimate grievance, and that further violence is the only possible response to violence, they move themselves ever further from being able to live in peace, safety and security in their homes.

G.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,Irwin in Israel
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 03:30 PM

GeorgeH,

According to you, peace is dependent on Israel and the United States. You leave out the Palestinians. Peace is only possible when all parties to the conflict are ready to make peace.

Last summer, the President Clinton of the United States brokered a peace deal that Israel's government under Prime Minister Barak accepted. Israel accepted many conditions under the deal that no one would have ever thought possible. Yet, it fell apart because Palestinian leader Arafat would not go along. Despite the fact that the deal would have given the Palestinians almost everything they've ever demanded.

Instead, the Palestinians reinstigated the Intifada and terrorism. This led to the fall of Barak and the election of Sharon.

There was such a great opportunity that Arafat and the Palestinians threw away. Clinton wanted to broker peace. Now Bush doesn't want to interfere. Barak was ready to make peace, now Sharon is only concerned with security.

Yes, violence begets violence. In the world of realpolitik, countries have always, and will always respond to attacks.

Israel made peace with Egypt and Jordan when those countries decided they were ready. We want to make desperately to make peace with the Palestinians. But it can olny come to pass if, and when, the Palestinians also want to make peace.

GeorgeH, with all due respect to the many Mudcatters who have participated in this discussion, statements like your's, while pretending to be of good will, are, in fact, anti-peace.

Shalom, Saalam, Peace

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:13 PM

those with the power to resolve it, which means Israel or the US.

There's an ambiguity about that word "power" - if "with the power" just means "who has a veto on things happening", then that of coutrse that includes all the elements among the Palestinians.

But in another sense surely it means who has the strength and the muscle and the wealth along with the veto - and in that sense it doesn't include the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,Irwin in Israel
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:44 PM

McGrath,

In the end it doesn't matter who has more guns. As long as the Palestinians veto peace, there can be no peace.

As for wealth, the financial resources of the Arab oil countries are far beyond those of Israel. Those countries, who encouraged the Palestinians to leave Israel in 1948, have always been in the position to alleviate all of suffering and poverty of the Palestinian refugees. However, they've chosen to use their poverty as a propaganda tool for 53 years.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 05:58 PM

Killers and Losers

There are Antisemites

Two items from yesterday's Guardian, the same page. I only read them this morning or would have posted them yesterday.

Penny

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,Irwin in Israel
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 06:21 PM

Penny,

Thank you very much for providing those articles. They provide some of the best analysis that I've read recently about the situation.

I encourage everyone to read them. They will help you understand what I have been trying to communicate in this discussion.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 07:05 PM

"The financial resources of the Arab oil countries are far beyond those of Israel" - what's really so different about saying that and talking about "the wealth of world Jewry"? Both phrases invite anti-semitism in through the front door. Palestinians don't control the wealth of the oil sheikdoms any more than Israelis control enterprises owned by Jews in far parts of the world.

Peace will have to involve the Palestinians accepting that most of the injustice which has been imposed on them (and which the Israelis were forced into perpetrating by the horrors the Jewish people endured) cannot be undone. But the balance of power is overwhelmingly against them - and greater power implies a greater responsibility to exercise extreme restraint, and to recognise how hard it is to accept the injustice and exile that has been the fate of both branches of Abraham's descendants.

Peace will come. Neither people are going away. Fifty years is nothing in the history of either. But in the meantime every death is a waste and a futile and blasphemous sacrifice.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: GUEST,Irwin in Israel
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 08:38 PM

McGrath,

I did not suggest that all Arabs are rich. However, it is indisputable that the Arab oil countries do control incredible wealth. Is it so terrible to think that they might use a little bit of resources to help the Palestinian refugees? A refugee problem that those same Arab governments helped to create.

For 53 years, many Jews around the world have been financially supportive of Israel, particularly in regard to the resettlement of persecuted Jews from both Eastern Europe and those same Arab countries. And Africa too, I might add.

I am not suggesting that Israel bears no responsibility in finding a solution. Most Israelis and successive governments of Israel have acknowledged that. However, Israel cannot create peace or solve all the problems of the Palestinians on its own. Others have to be involved.

One more thing before I have to finally get some sleep, I have thus far refrained from pointing out that the Palestinian Authority, Arafat's government, is riddled with unbelieveable levels of corruption. That has also contributed greatly to the suffering of the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From:
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 08:49 PM

I refrained from posting to this thread yesterday as I felt that Mrrzy had said everything I wanted to, and form an experience wich gave him an unimpeachable right to comment. I would just like add a couple of lines however. Leaving aside the issue of reporting, which I agree is down to what media is actualy present, rather than any intrinsic bias I think this thread has moved on to some really fundamental issues.

Mankinds ability to murder others is arguably natural and excusable from an ethological point of view. What concerns me is our ability to justify this action to ourselves as a defense of our "rights" or beleifs.

Nothing is simple in this kind of situation, but the economic argument raised by McGrath is a core ingedient. Whether we consider the Crusades, morally justified as means of 'saving' Jerusalem from the infidel, the USA's history of genocide against the so called native Americans, and theirs against each other, the only so far as I know, completely sucessful genocide in Tasmania, the illegal confiscation of Moari land here in NZ and the attempted genocide by Taranaki Moari in the Chathams, all come down to attempts to gain economic ascendency.

I think it has been accepted for a long time that if you deprive a group of people of the economic ability to maintain themselves and their families, they will eventually, attempt to redress the balance, if necessary by force; and that any violent repression of this aim only leads to a more deep seated, passionate and irrational hatred.

I have no solutions to offer execept the obvious that each side in any conflict that truely wishes to end the conflict must be preapred to give up their most treasured belief or possession, not just the minimum they think they can get away with.

I would be interested in any thoughts on this particularly from Irwin.

Pete M

PS in an ultimate irony, here in NZ, farmers who have been paying what is effectively a peppercorn rent to the Moari tribes from whom there land was "leased", are now being paid compensation by the Government for having to pay a market rent, but the Moari are not being compensated for the lost revenue over the last 100 years or so!

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 09:43 PM

Irwin said about the peace agreement it fell apart because Palestinian leader Arafat would not go along. Despite the fact that the deal would have given the Palestinians almost everything they've ever demanded.

What do the Palestinians want, exactly? And what does Israel want? Did the agreement, in fact, satisfy both sides? If so, then I believe that the recent hostilities are on the heads of Arafat and the Palestinian leadership. However, I am also sceptical about the objective truth of Irwin's statement.

I'm willing to be enlightened, though.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From:
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 10:14 PM

Irwin, I wish you would speak about the corruption of the Palestinian Authority. The only way things get fixed is to shine lights on them.

Well, another of my unasked for opinions is that Arafat has just got to retire. He is a civil engineer. he should be working on the water problems there..or building better buildings, or playgrounds for the children who believe that when they return to Palestine, they will finally have playgrounds and grass. mg

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Pete M
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 01:59 AM

I'm not sure what your point is Mgarvey. You imply that the Palestinian Authority is corrupt, but of what relevance is that to the debate? Indeed what is meant by corrupt? I am sure that there is not an administration in the world which is not "corrupt" by some standard. The main difference with Western nations is that we apply double standards here as elsewhere. Paying an official to ensure their co-operation is regarded as corrupt, but spending the same amount of money wining and dining them is perfectly acceptable, normal business practice. I am reminded of possibly apochraphyl story that GBS during a discussion on morals asked a lady if she would sleep with him for a million pounds, she said yes, so he offered her a fiver and suggested they went upstairs. When she indignantly asked what he took her for he replied that that had already been established and he was just haggling over the price.

To get back to Irwin's original point, the thought occurred to me after I wrote my last post that a contributory factor in the degree of reaction is that the IDF is percieved as a professional, well disciplined force and therefore the expectation of restraint on them is much higher than for an ad hoc collection of individuals no matter how well armed and combat experienced those individuals may be. Therefore to see the results of IDF personnel continuing to direct semi automatic fire at a target which is not a clearly identified threat is not only shocking because of the result, but because it is behaviour contrary to that expected. Before anyone raises the point I would also suggest that the use of suppressive fire is a valid action in a war situation. I would not think that anyone who has thought about believes it to be so in what is legally a civil disturbance, regardless of any casualties the forces of law and order are taking.

Again I would welcome comments from Irwin or anyone else.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 07:05 AM

The point I was making was that Palestinians are not to blame for the failings of their co-religionists in other parts of the world. I drew the parallel with the other form of anti-semitism (the form that puts Jews rather than Arabs in the frame), because it's perhaps easier to recognise this as racist/sectarian.

Obviously all of us have a duty to do what we can to help people in other parts f the world, and we probably have a particular duty for those with whom we have some kind of cultural/religious link, or those who have been adversely affected by those with whom we have such links. But that is another matter.

The key to any peace process, in any conflict is probably for people on both sides to concentrate their attention on the actions of "their own side" rather than on those of "the other side." Is there anything "we" could do better? Is there anything "we" are doing which makes it harder for the people of goodwill on "the other side", and so forth. Concentrating on the failings of enemies is essentially a waste of time.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Grab
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 09:15 AM

Irwin, I may be wrong here. But I thought there was a cease-fire and a fragile peace agreement, until Ariel Sharon decided he wanted to go walkabout in Palestinian-controlled territory, in violation of the peace agreement. The Israeli army had two choices, either let him go on his own and get killed, or give him bodyguards. And when the Israeli army came over into the Palestinian area, the whole damn thing started going again.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I got from the news is that Ariel Sharon provoked the Palestinians, and then points the finger and says "Look, we can't trust them".

Graham.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Grab
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 09:39 AM

BBC news report for the day Sharon visited. And a quote from the BBC's profile of Sharon:-

"His controversial visit last year to the al-Aqsa mosque compound in east Jerusalem, a site which is also holy to Jews, was the spark for the second Palestinian intifada (uprising).

Cynics say Mr Sharon knew the visit would trigger violence and gambled on the Israeli public turning to a tough leader like him who would know how to handle it firmly."

Graham.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 11:36 AM

To nobody in particular: Arabs are Semites. Why does anti-semitism mean hatred of Jews and not hatred of Semites? What do you call hatred of Arabs?

Irwin, I heard a report on the radio today about "Land Day," an annual protest by Arab Israelis over the seizure of Arab lands by the Israeli government in 1976. Can you give us your side of this? It certainly sounds like more calumny on the part of the Israeli government, and wasn't included on your sweeping overview of the history of the area, but I'm willing to weigh both sides of this issue.

Alex

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Jim Krause
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 02:02 PM

To All:
This is what war is. People die. Other people do the killing. It matters little which is which. Handwringing, blame casting will solve nothing. And revenge is stupid and utterly barbaric. There is enough blame for everyone to get a share. Get over it.

On the other hand, if those in war torn countries don't like it, they must find some way of deposing all of their war leaders, down to the last freshly minted second lieutenant. Peace must be waged just as war is waged. That means organize! And that will not guarantee that innocent people will be immune from death. For the barbarians of the world want anything but real peace.
Jim

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 05:37 PM

As reported by the BBC at the link Grab provided, Sharon said he had visited Temple Mount (also known as Haram al-Sharif) "with a message of peace." I took this to be self-serving cynicism of the highest order, and like Grab I have assumed that the present unrest was sparked by that incident.

Could Irwin or anyone else say if I've been led to an over-simplistic reading of Sharon's behavour? But Irwin, don't take this post as part of a ganging-up against you - I know he didn't get your vote, so it's not down to you to explain his actions.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:15 PM

Sad to say the violence continues, and innocents are hurt.

Subject: RE: Baby murdered in Hebron
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:30 PM

They appear to be locked into a cycle of endless reprisals. Neither side wants to be the last to suffer loss.

Menschlich, allzu menschlich.

Alex