Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One

Subject: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 08:07 AM

Recently I was introduced to the concept of knowing many tunes but not being able to play one. That you can build up a repertoire of songs like an encyclopedia, but that doesn't mean the tunes will have depth and richness.
That it is better to know a few tunes really well than to know many tunes but not be able to really play one well.
This concept opened up a whole new world for me. With some old-time artist recordings I would get the sense they were reeling off lots of banjo tunes but the tunes seemed to have no richness & depth. Maybe this problem is more common in banjo tunes. Or maybe you can apply this thought to all kinds of folk music.

Since I realized this, I've slowed down trying to learn a whole bunch of new tunes. I am going to focus in on the tunes I currently have learned. Particularly the ones I love and see if I can bring more depth out of my music by courting each tune longer. Allowing more time for expression to unfold and life form to develop within each tune.

Just wondering if you guys had any thoughts on this.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: jeffp
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 08:11 AM

You're on the right track, Bonnie. A tune without feeling is just a bunch of notes. Concentrate on making each tune or song a part of you, so that you are also a part of the tune or song.

It's a little scary, because you are sharing a part of your soul each time you play, but you and your audience will be much richer for it.

jeffp

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 08:24 AM

I guess it depends on what you are looking to do. I enjoy sessions and I would value a hundred extra tunes that I could play at least well enough to join in with others more than one I could play to perfection (assuming I could even do that).

Jon

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 08:32 AM

Jon, it seems at the sessions I have attended they play the tunes soooooo fast that I feel pretty disconnected to the tunes and to the other folks I am playing with. Maybe it has to do with the fact I am so inexperienced but I find the whole thing so far pretty meaningless. When the tunes are played too fast, I feel alone within a crowd of musicians. Maybe with time and experience I will feel the connection I know others speak of.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 08:41 AM

Bonnie, speed in itself can be a killer and is often responsible for stripping a tune of any life and feeling. Also, it is no fun struggling to try to keep up.

A thought: I guess if you are really keen to join in with others, a good approach would be to continue to build up a good repertiore but single a few of your real favourites out and make them something special.

Jon

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Gypsy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 11:36 AM

Both ways are good. I've found, that the more tunes i know, the easier it is to learn. After all, there are only so many licks available. That makes it handy playing in a session, where you don't necessarily know the tunes that are being played. However, the man in my life, tends to dissect tunes slowly, and really turn them into something wonderful. He can add a richness and depth that only comes from concentrating on an individual tune

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: RichM
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 11:56 AM

Bonnie, your perception is wise.
It's good to revisit your old (favorite) tunes and add some depth and complexity to them-- but Jeffp says it better, above:

"Concentrate on making each tune or song a part of you, so that you are also a part of the tune or song. "

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:33 PM

I find going to many different sessions helps. And I go stale if I linger too long at any session, like at festivals.
But then I play spoons when I tire of the bodhran. So what do I know about tunes?

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 01:29 PM

Until I went to a Dwight Diller's workshop in Michigan I was only exposed to one type of old-time session here in Toronto. What a difference I found. At the Diller session we played the tunes much slower. Dwight facilitated the session kind of like a conductor so if we sped up he slowed us down again. I was also with several beginners so I felt more relaxed with the group. If I didn't know the tune, I just dampened my strings and strummed to the beat.
I think I got spoiled by Dwight's sessions. After attending one of those nothing seems to compare so far.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 01:50 PM

Hi Bonnie,

Welcome to the world of 'old timey' music. Around here, (practically the center of the old timey universe) they play fast and hard. At sessions where 'old timey' predominates, the pieces all start to sound the same after a while.

Good luck finding old timey sessions that aren't that way. If you're ever in the Shepherdstown/Martinsburg area, we have a couple of sessions where you would fit right in if you like to play both fast and slow.

As for my own repetoir, even though I play the accordion, what I do is have a small handfull of pieces that I play with richness and depth. And I try to have several that I know less well and play with little or no richness or depth because I know that as I play them more I'll grow into them.

Take care,

Carol

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 02:17 PM

Dunno about high speed old timey banjo, but when you're singing, every song needs to have its depths felt and brought forth, or you're just practicing. That said, there is nothing wrong with knowing three thousand songs.

A

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 02:54 PM

Amos that reminds me of a quote I once heard.......

'Don't ever let me catch you singing like that again, without enthusiasm. You're nothing, if you aren't excited by what you are doing.

- Frank Sinatra to his son, Frank, Jr.

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Stewart
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 04:45 PM

Bonnie - I agree, my sentiments exactly. I picked up fiddle a few years ago after playing classical as a kid. I enjoy really learning a tune well, rather than playing a lot of notes fast. I remember an Irish fiddle workshop here last year with Martin Hayes - I recall he said it took him months (perhaps a year) to understand a particular tune so that he would feel comfortable and enjoy playing it. There is so much in phrasing, bowing, rhythm, etc that must be learned slow before taking it up to speed. I feel the same way about singing. It takes me a long time before I feel comfortable and good about a song - it has to become my own, not just notes and words on a page - but it is well worth the effort. So I may not have hundreds of tunes or songs that I do, but I enjoy what I do have more.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 05:50 PM

Is Rick still your teacher? What's his advice?

Martin

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 06:28 PM

As I'm always boring people by pointing out, people only play fast for one of two reasons. One is because it's easier to play fast than slow, like riding a bicycle. The momentum carries you along, and the mistakes get covered up.

The other is because it impresses people and amuses them, and I suppose that's not a bad reason to do it some of the time. But God spare us the kind of sessions where everything gets played at breakneck speed and all the subtleties are ironed out of the music. (Generally speaking, the bigger the session, the more likely that is to happen. Small is beautiful.)

So build up a few tunes that you make your own, and insist on playing at your own speed, with room for the subtleties, whether or not other people play with you on them as well. And at the same time inevitably, if you play along with other people, you'll build up scores of other tunes where you can put in your stuff with the rest of the session. It isn't either/ or, it's both/ and.

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Mark Clark
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 08:07 PM

Right on! Much more difficult to play slowly and accurately. My old friend Stan Shapin used to play very deliberate sparse versions of banjo tunes but if you tried to immitate him, you found that what he was playing was quite difficult. He could really dig in and get the heart out of a tune.

It's also my impression that the traditional sources for much of the music we love didn't necessarily have extensive repertoires. Instead, by the time they were documented, they had spent a lifetime honing every nuance of the tunes they knew, trying to make them seem fresh. We are now presented with the sum total of all the collected songs and I suspect most of us can perform more songs than most of the original sources could, just not as heartfully.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 08:46 PM

McGrath, I think there may be a third reason why people speed up.....inexperience. As a beginner in sessions, I get so nervous I tend to speed up even if I do not want to. Same with the one time I performed in front of an audience. I sped up from nervousness there too.

Stewart, thanks for your words, I find them comforting.

Carol, it helps to know this is a universal problem but that there are sessions out there I would enjoy. Gives me hope.

marty D, I decided to narrow my focus for now so I am studying under Dwight Diller who teaches a very specific type of old-time banjo tunes from the 18th & 19th century with a specific style in a specific area of Pocahontas County in West Virginia.
It would be interesting to hear Rick's thoughts on this topic.

I really do appreciate all the guidance I am getting on this thread. It is so helpful, thank you!

Little Neo

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 08:54 PM

Ooooop, you too Mark. Wanted to thank you too but I didn't see your posting until after I posted.
It makes a whole bunch of sense what you are saying.
I would love to experience what those old-timers experienced for a moment in time with their music. Where I am narrowed down with what I am playing. Telling my own tale through my tune. Sure I will be missing the hardships that went along with the tune, but I figure if I focus in, I will get a better appreciation for what those folks were trying to express to us.
Maybe I will learn how to tell my own tale too.
Oy, what a story that would be!

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 09:20 PM

The longer I have played the more I am amazed at the power a well placed silence can have in the delivery of a beautiful song -- sometimes just a quarter-beat makes all the difference between being a jukebox and being a living singing human being. Well... that sounds kinda mawkish, but screw it, it's true!

A

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 12:56 AM

Time, simply time. I have yet to a see really good player (and Bonnie will be a REALLY good player) progress on an even upward plane. It goes in plateaus. Before each plateau is reached there's one hell of a lot of frustration......and then....EUREKA!

About a year after I started playing, rather than carrying on in a general way, I decided that the style of Leadbelly would give me great satisfaction. Man, did I ever focus! I never realized how PHYSICALLY hard it would be. The idea of building up muscles simply to play 12 string guitar would never have entered my head at that point, but it was neccessary just to hold the heavy guage strings down. A few years later at a party here in Toronto Sonny Terry (I was chauffeuring he and Brownie from the club to the gig) said after I played (didn't sing!!) some Leadbelly music, "Hmmm, seems like Ol' Huddie's in the room". For me, that was it! I could have died right then and there. Maybe he was just being nice...but I don't think so. I'd worked my ass off just for a moment like that.

It'll come Bon

Rick

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 08:56 AM

Thus spake Rickathustra!!................hahahahaha. You are right, my friend, because she wants to understand this stuff. Hang in.

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 07:23 PM

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 07:33 PM

Little Neo--

There's been some good philosophy shared above. Here are some practical things that help me get a lot more depth out of a given song. (I don't know what instrument or style you're working with, but whatever ....) [1] Try it in different keys, whether you can sing comfortably in them or not. Listen to the different voicings created by the different relationships between melody and chords in each. [2] Not that you might want to perform it this way, but if it's a slow song, speed it up; if it's a fast song, slow it down. Discover otherwise unnoticed dynamics and try to transfer them back into the way you "normally" play that song. [3] Work with a second instrument. I find myself finally becoming a better guitar player after messing around on a banjo. My right hand does biofeedback from one instrument to the other. But bottom line, don't get discouraged; whoever talked about plateaus [-teaux?] was right on. You have to get each stage "under your fingers" as some keyboarders say, before you try new material. All this and a dollar will get you coffee at Starbuck's.

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: Firecat
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 07:04 AM

Sorry but that sounds exactly like me!! ;¬))

Subject: RE: Knows Lots of Tunes..Can't Play Darn One
From: RichM
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 10:53 AM

Lots of good advice here; practice regularly, focus, have a plan...

As well as technical solutions to improvements(which are necessary, of course) , what about nourishing the creative side? Bonnie referred to "to.. (experiencing) what those old-timers experienced for a moment in time with their music."

And " Where I am narrowed down with what I am playing. Telling my own tale through my tune. Sure I will be missing the hardships that went along with the tune, but I figure if I focus in, I will get a better appreciation for what those folks were trying to express to us. Maybe I will learn how to tell my own tale too."

Well said, Bonnie.
My Grandfather was a wonderful Québec style fiddler, who learned from what he heard, and re-interpreted. I hope I can continue to use what I learned from his approach to music!

I think those of us who love and play traditional music can be true to the spirit of the music--by listening to our own inner spirit...to go with our emotional creative side to express the tradition, rather than focussing on reproducing it note for note.

Rich McCarthy