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BS: USA - Socialist Utopia?
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Subject: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Richard Bridge Date: 02 Apr 01 - 11:22 AM I remain in sporadic Email contact with an old friend who joined a US company in the UK and has now moved to the USA. He always was a bit right wing, but he has for a while now been trying to tell me that the USA is very wonderful and anyone who wants work can get it and there is no poverty amongst those who are prepared to work for their living. He seems to love US schools too. I wonder how right he is? His latest missive reads (in part): - "Hi Richard One of the great myths about the USA is that there is no social security, no housing service for the poor or homeless and no National Heath service. There is in fact all three, but somehow the message never gets out. The high social security support is one of the reasons they make immigrants wait five years for citizenship. There is even free college if you want. I have actually been amazed at how much the government does to support people here. The Tennessee Valley Authority is perhaps a good example of the government creating so much of an infrastructure that goes beyond any communist idealized dream. The government create jobs, power supplies, research centers, and military bases, just to distribute wealth around the country. I would say there is far more left wing style social support and social planning in the US than the UK." Comments?
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Bagpuss Date: 02 Apr 01 - 11:46 AM There is a general culture in the US (so I have found anyway) of believing that anyone can get anything they want as long as they are prepared to work for it. Hence they derive the belief that anyone who is poor is that way because they are lazy. I don't know much about their social security system (other than its a lot quicker to cut off benefits to those who refuse certain jobs/retraining than here in the UK), but I do know that their health system is far from based on socialist principles. Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: UB Ed Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:21 PM As a USA person, I believe Bagpuss is mostly right in the "culture thought" belief that good things result from hard work. I would venture that a number of our social programs stem from the recognition of socioeconomic or other barriers that must be overcome to enable one to become a productive societal member and/or to compensate for situations that cannot be overcome. Does that make us Socialist? I think not. Additionally, just because we may have a program doesn't necessarily mean its a good one or that it works. For some, its better to stay on welfare than obtain a legitimate trade. That doesn't seem to make sense, but the unraveling of all the other factors into the situation precludes a "one size fits all" approach. Richard, I think your friend brings a unique perspective from having the opportunity to live both places. I would also venture him to be one of those optimistic folks who are expert in finding real silver linings (also a necessary ingredient for success). I've not had the pleasure of living abroad, but am greatful I live here. Ed |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Liam's Brother Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:29 PM Hi Richard! Like most other countries, the USA has a muti-party system and this is not a nation of right wingers... though we have them! The center has been somewhat further to the right than Britain through much of the last 50 years and the word Socialism is not really understood here and Communism is a general anathema. This is a very big country. But I think it's true that, right now, individual politics in many regions of the country is not dramatically different than Britain. The nation is somewhat isolationist but that is primarily geographic and historical. Having said that, we spend a lot in foreign aid. There is unemployment insurance here. It differs from state to state and changes according to the economic climate but it provides for about 6 months benefits to active job seekers provided they were previously employed for 20 weeks. If you don't meet that criteria or when you've used up your 6 months, the treacle stick is withdrawn and you have to go on what's called "public assistance" politely or better known as "welfare." I don't think welfare is much of a life and in order to qualify for welfare, you must have very little in the way of assets. Therefore, the addage "Save your money when you're young, me boys, you'll need it when you're old," is very true here. There is a Social Security system. What you get depends to a great extend on how much you have earned in salary. It is not very lucrative for anyone and there is a cap on the top benefit. Everything being relative, whether Social Security benefits are "high" (as your friend suggests) depends on where an immigrant comes from and where he lives in the USA. If he lives in New York City, Social Security might pay his rent for a week or 2 but not much more than that! Many companies have private retirement plans and there is an individual government-sponsored plan similar to the PEP or ISA (called the IRA), however, it is far less generous than either of those British plans and only allows an individual to save about GBP1300 a year as opposed to GBP7000 a year in Britain. Once again, "Save your money when you're old..." There is no National Health Service except for the elderly and indigent. I retired early and my medical insurance costs GBP187 monthly and does not include dental or vision benefits. I am told I am lucky to have it. The Tennessee Valley Authority was created during the Depression by the closest thing this country's ever had to a Socialist government... the F. D. Roosevelt administration. It is far, far from typical and, being over 60 years old, was hardly a model for what has followed. There are many, many problems in the United States. I would say the greatest is the lack of understanding of the value of education among the parents of many of the country's poorest students. Likewise, the United States has many fine points. We are blessed with many great natural resources and a motivated workforce made up of people from many nations who despite the inherent difficulties, largely succeed in cooperating, co-existing and excelling every day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Rick Fielding Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:34 PM Hey, I thought we Canadians were the ones supposed to be living in a "Socialist Utopia". Not for long though, we're catching up to the U.S. at a rapid rate. Our long vaunted health-care system is becoming multi-tiered as we speak. End result: If you ain't rich..don't get sick! Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Amergin Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:37 PM If I remember correctly the Clinton Administration came heavily under fire when they attempted to create a National Health Service..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Bagpuss Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:47 PM I know what you mean about Americans not really understanding socialism. I casually mentioned on another site I post at, that I would call myself a socialist in political terms, and you would have thought I had said I was the devil incarnate by some of the reactions I got. Even some of the more thoughtful posters equated socialism with Russian style communism. Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Liam's Brother Date: 02 Apr 01 - 01:14 PM I hear you, Bagpuss! All of those supposedly autonomous nations in the USSR were called Soviet SOCIALIST Republics... |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: GeorgeH Date: 02 Apr 01 - 01:39 PM Rick, sadly your "departure from Socialist Utopia" is mirrored here in the UK, too . . (thought we may be ahead of you in that race). And, LB, the nations of the USSR were about as Socialist as they were Republic - or was that what you were saying? G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Whistle Stop Date: 02 Apr 01 - 01:44 PM I have lived my whole life in the US. Like most modern democracies, we temper our capitalism with some socialism. Pure capitalism -- the law of the jungle applied to economics -- doesn't work any better here than it does elsewhere. We struggle to find the right balance, which will maintain the profit motive but still provide a "safety net" for those who are most in need of government assistance. Reasonable people can and do disagree on how much socialism is too much -- generally, those who favor less socialism are characterized as "conservative," while those who favor more of a government safety net are characterized as "liberal" (these are loose definitions that don't exactly correspond to how those words are used in other countries). The US is still dealing with the legacy of the first half of the 20th century, when we tended to view any introduction of socialist programs as the first step in a Communist revolution (Communism being synonymous with despotism and oppression). So the word "socialist" is still a loaded term in this country. The USA is a pretty prosperous country -- there is a lot of economic opportunity here, and if you know how to work the system some of the government programs are relatively generous. Others are appallingly inadequate, and in need of an overhaul. Health care is one of the more egregious examples of this -- if someone collapses in the street, he will be taken to a hospital and treated at public expense, but there are powerful forces at work in this country that will resist any attempt to provide the same individual with government guarantees of ongoing preventative health care, even though this might be provided at a fraction of the cost of emergency room care after-the-fact. The battle lines have been drawn on this issue, huge amounts of money are involved, and the debate has so far generated more heat than light -- for all of these reasons, it won't be easy to resolve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: katlaughing Date: 02 Apr 01 - 01:45 PM There are no welfare benefits, except maybe food stamps, for any single male who is out of work, that I know of, based on the experience of my brother and a couple of other men I know, in the state of Wyoming, at least. I certainly wouldn't call the US a Socialist Utopia; there is much poverty and lack that come about through circumstances beyond the control of ordinary people. Conversly there is plenty of abuse of what is available, too. I know of a couple who have high bills every month for medicine, over $800, and the only way they can make it is to lie and say they are separated so that she can get Medicaid and disability. It doesn't seem fair that they are doing that, nor that they should have to in order to receive help. On the other hand, I also know of a man who has had some health problems and figured out the "system" to the order of having his way paid through college, having a new van paid for by some government agency, getting a complete workshop set up in his home and paid for by the government, etc., etc. and it infuritates many of us, esp. when he flaunts it, which he is prone to do. Then there are people like me, another Mudcatter I know of, and others who are too honest, or worked for themselves too long, or whatever, who cannot get one cent of assistance for medical or anything else. I don't mind really because I am doing pretty well and Rog makes a good living, but I do get angry when I think about my friend and their family and how deserving they are of some real relief, esp. compared to the jerk I wrote about above. Utopia? No. I think your friend, to quote an old jingle for Chevrolet, needs to "see the USA." It is too vast to jduge just by one little corner. A trip to any Indian Reservation would quickly dispel some of that rosy-tint on his glasses. Sorry, didn't mean to go on, this pushed some buttons, I guess.:-) kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: UB Ed Date: 02 Apr 01 - 02:01 PM Kat, although you specifically identify inequities, the majority of responses already acknowledge this fact. I am certain that you are aware that "Utopia" is a concept, an ideal. Subsequently, we are forced to deal in reality. And a basic reality is that life is hard. Its up to each of us to take some personal control and try to better it for ourselves. This means availing ourself of any legal opportunity (government provided or not)to improve our personal condition. This applies to any country on this earth. The question posted deals with relativity. Thus, the US is not a socialist utopia, however, relative to other countries, it may be better in some areas and worse in others. As for rose tinted glasses, I think we all need a pair as long as our vision is not distorted. Optimism accomplishes much more than negativity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: GUEST,UB Dan Date: 02 Apr 01 - 02:10 PM kat -"I also know of a man who has had some health problems and figured out the "system" to the order of having his way paid through college, having a new van paid for by some government agency, getting a complete workshop set up in his home and paid for by the government, etc., etc. and it infuritates many of us, esp. when he flaunts it, which he is prone to do." It's your country too kat...if you see people abusing the system, they are in essence abusing you. You can't expect the government to take more responsibility for you and your friends than you are willing to take yourself. However, if the "jerk" is able to use his benefits to re-enter society with a viable skill and able to support himself after training, then more power to him...that's the work ethic discussed before. If job's are scarce, starting his own business may be the only way...or moving.. "A trip to any Indian Reservation would quickly dispel some of that rosy-tint on his glasses" ... I disagree, some (granted not many) reservations are doing fairly well with casino's, but my point is it is unfair to make sweeping generalizations about poverty in the same way it is unfair to make them about wealth. Amergin -"If I remember correctly the Clinton Administration came heavily under fire when they attempted to create a National Health Service..... " I don't think people are opposed to the idea of a National Health Service...I think they were shocked and disappointed about the particulars of HOW it would be implemented. More than a few people were also resentful that Hillary was the main force behind the design...
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: mousethief Date: 02 Apr 01 - 02:18 PM National health? It is to laugh. If you work for a living and your employer doesn't provide health coverage and you get a major illness, you are up feces creek without means of propulsion, and make no mistake. This is no socialist utopia. The rich continue to get richer and the divide between rich and poor continues to grow unabated. And those of us who would like to make the US more socialist (a la Norway or Germany, for example) run up against all sorts of inanity posturing as conservatism. Sigh. But what can you do but keep trying? Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: katlaughing Date: 02 Apr 01 - 03:44 PM UB,Ed, I find your tone patronising and condescending. Of course, I know what Utopia is and I was citing examples from what is "reality" where I live. Another UB? Dan? or same person? The people I wrote about are not my friends. I am well aware that their abuse effects us all. I am also one of the most optimistic people you would ever meet. I do believe in recognising that there is a long ways to go before we can even come close to a so-called utopia. Yes, some Indian Reservations are making money with their casinos, but not many. There is unbelievable poverty which our country should be ashamed of, on many "rezs" which I travel to, as well as in the cities I lived close to back East. My point was simply that it cannot be said that the USA is anywhere near a socialist utopia. Also, reagrdless of what the contention was with Clinton's plan, Congress made sure, for the next 8 years, that there was never any discussion about national health plans of any shape or form. Until we have that in place, for all citizens, we are a very "poor" country, indeed. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: CarolC Date: 02 Apr 01 - 03:44 PM there is no poverty amongst those who are prepared to work for their living.
This is the part that I have the biggest problem with. We have a lot of people who fall into the category of the 'working poor'. It is very easy here to be working and still live in poverty. And many who work and are just above the poverty line don't get any medical or dental benefits at all. Carol
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: katlaughing Date: 02 Apr 01 - 03:50 PM Good points, Carol. There are also people who work and make a good living who cannot afford health insurance. Because Rog works for a small company, our monthly insurance rates went up to higher than our rent was two summers ago, to over $600 per month. Consequently, I do not have health coverage. I know of many people in similar situations. |
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Subject: USA? A Utopia? HA!!!! From: Clinton Hammond Date: 02 Apr 01 - 03:52 PM What got me was the great schools bit!!! As if... What's the stat? 65% of grade schools students couldn't find their home state on an unmarked map?!?! How sad is that?!?!?! How many people graduate Highschool and still can't read?? I suspect the initial post in this thread is SATIRE! LOL!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: UB Ed Date: 02 Apr 01 - 03:54 PM Hold on Kat; no offense intended. I simply believe we're comparing things and Richard's friend has a unique opportunity to experience two different systems. No beef as long as you're willing to acknowledge we've got some good things going on here.... Ed, not UB Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Liam's Brother Date: 02 Apr 01 - 03:55 PM I am not now nor have I at any time ever been associated with the UB Party. However, if UB is hiring, I am now looking for a way to pay for my $281 a month health insurance.
All the best, |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: UB Ed Date: 02 Apr 01 - 04:08 PM Liam's Brother! Dan and I would be happy to have you join the UB party. Membership is free with all the rights and privaleges you'd expect at that price! Ed |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: GUEST,UB Dan Date: 02 Apr 01 - 04:20 PM My brother's name is Jim, but my friend's son is named Liam...although I don't believe he is hiring...he's 4? Kat...now that we have established that there is poverty on reservations, in cities, and hopefully we can agree that some suburbs and country area's also have poverty...Now where we may disagree is that socialism will fix this completely. I propose that England is more socialist than the US and still has poverty, as do Germany and France. Clinton - although there are atrocious examples of people passing through the school system uneducated, The US has one of the most inclusive school systems. Everyone is not only allowed to attend, but required to attend...School is like anything else, you get out what you put in...for every student you can name that graduated without being able to read, I can name 1000's who went on to higher learning or were able to use what they learned in high school to start in a chosen career... |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: katlaughing Date: 02 Apr 01 - 04:22 PM UB, Ed, sure we have some good things going on here and yes, I agree his friend has a neat opportunity here, just wanted to make sure those glasses weren't too rosy.:-) NWUkat whose health insurance through them would still be outrageous!*bg* |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Apr 01 - 06:08 PM "some (granted not many) reservations are doing fairly well with casinos" - nobody "does well" with casinos. (And whose country is it in the first place anyway?)
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Whistle Stop Date: 03 Apr 01 - 08:25 AM McGrath, I agree that casinos are a lousy basis for anyone's economy, and I don't see them as a viable long-term solution to poverty on the reservations. However, I disagree with the implication that I hear behind your "whose country is it in the first place anyway?" comment. As a native-born citizen, the country "belongs" to me just as much as it "belongs" to a native-born aboriginal American. Suggesting that they have a better claim to this country than members of other races is absurd. If we want to suggest that we should all go back where we came from in the first place, we'll have to agree on when that "first place" really was. It might be better to just accept the fact that we're all here now, and work to make sure everyone has equal opportunities, rather than suggest that members of certian races have a more legitimate claim baced on their ancestry. However, if that is NOT what you meant, I apologize for going off on this tangent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Bagpuss Date: 03 Apr 01 - 08:36 AM Whenever we get reports about how bad UK education is, we always derive a little satisfaction that the US is always lower than us. Recent reports show that the US has one of the lowest literacy levels in the developed world. What's the term for that? Taking pleasure in the misery of others....a German word that has slipped my mind momentarily? Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: GUEST,UB Dan Date: 03 Apr 01 - 09:21 AM Whistle Stop - Well said. Bagpuss - Leidenfreude (I think) I still say we have one of the most inclusive school systems. There is no separation of students into different schools based on their objectives (i.e. trade schools vs. prep schools, Gymnasium etc..). I agree that it is wrong to automatically advance students to the next grade when their particular objectives have not been met, but remember that our public schools try to include people with emotional and mental handicaps who may have different objectives. Overall ratings may be lower, but an AP student in the states is not inferior to an IB student in Europe and our Learning Disabled students may be better educated than they would be in England...Its not that we have a greater majority of uneducated...its that we count them all |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Wolfgang Date: 03 Apr 01 - 09:32 AM Schadenfreude Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: UB Ed Date: 03 Apr 01 - 09:42 AM Wolf: Damage Joy?
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Wolfgang Date: 03 Apr 01 - 10:14 AM Yes, Ed, 'damage joy' it is verbatim, meaning 'joy about another person's damage'. We even have a tongue-in cheek proverbial saying Schadenfreude ist die reinste Freude (damage joy is the purest joy). Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Bagpuss Date: 03 Apr 01 - 10:24 AM The particular study I was thinking about was talking about levels of adult literacy (which I presumed would count those with learning difficulties in all countries) - and the USA was still one of the lowest in the developed world. We try to include those with learning disabilites and emotional/behavioural problems in mainstream schools wherever possible here in the uk too. My husband teaches at a school where there are several students with Aspergers syndrome, and a great many who are statemented as having special educational needs. Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 03 Apr 01 - 10:31 AM So nobody does well with casinos, and they are a lousy basis for anyone's economy ? Try pitching that to the State of Nevada. Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Peg Date: 03 Apr 01 - 10:31 AM free college? for who? only through scholarships, most of which are merit, not need-based. I watched while the Reagan administration systemetically destroyed the student schaolarship programs in this country, as well as all but eliminating the federal funds used for interest-free college loans. There were still some need-based scholarships available when I was in school but there are very few now. I don't call that socialized education. I call it a class-based education system. As for health care: My mom has MS and has been on disability for some time. She also has Type 1 diabetes. If it were not for her eligibility for Medicaid I cannot imagine how she would pay for her medical care; even so, the cost of some medications is a hardship. I worked freelance for years and had no health insurance. At one point I could not afford to have an x-ray or treatment of my injured foot done and as a result (I bought an ace bandage and a pair of crutches and ate pasta for a week) my days as an avid runner (6 miles a day every day) are now over...the myth that free health care is easily available for anyone who needs it is just that: a myth. There are senior citizens having to decide between healthy food and medicine; heating oil and medicine; electricity and medicine...
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: GUEST,UB Dan Date: 03 Apr 01 - 11:08 AM Wolfgang - Thanks...my guess missed the mark. Bagpuss - Thanks also too you, once again my guess missed the mark. Peg - I feel badly for your misfortune, but these same problems exist under socialism, communism, fascism, capitalism... We do need social programs, but alot of times we just need to make the existing programs more accessible and implement them better to prevent fraud and abuse and get help to those who need it.
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Apr 01 - 02:02 PM Ya know Peg... Even though we have one or 2 'issues' between us, it's often surprising just how similar we are... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Richard Bridge Date: 03 Apr 01 - 02:04 PM Well this is fairly informative. Thanks everyone. It seems to me that the upshot is that in the USA there may be many who are prepared to work who can only get at best dead end jobs, that there is no real unemployment insurance, that there is no systematic medical care for those unable to pay, and that there is no substantial state old age pension. It also seems that no-one has dared to synthesise the fear that most high schools are caricatured by the media be exaggerating existing unpleasant truths - thus, I imagine, schools remain ruled by "in-crowds" of jocks and the rich and beautiful while less socially skilled students remain persecuted. This I infer from silence. Accordingly I would I think advise only the very cocksure to take the risks posed by AMerica in the hope of finding the opportunities to become very rich. Am I being unfair? Or am I being only as biased as my friend, but in other directions? If I am only half right, how is it that Kelly Brook seems to have got her foot on the ladder in Hollywood? And no, this is not satire, or abuse, but I really would like to get the full picture. THe time I have spent in the USA on business has been good - but then I was one of the honorary establishment, and in no position to see the seamy underside of life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: GUEST,Jim Krause Date: 03 Apr 01 - 03:17 PM Hoo boy! What a sense of humor. That's a real knee slapper LOL. |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Liam's Brother Date: 03 Apr 01 - 03:58 PM Hi Richard! I had a look at your conclusions and I have a few comments...
1. "It seems to me that the upshot is that in the USA there may be many who are prepared to work who can only get at best dead end jobs"
2. "there is no real unemployment insurance" -
3. "there is no systematic medical care for those unable to pay" -
4. "there is no substantial state old age pension" - 5. "schools remain ruled by "in-crowds" of jocks and the rich and beautiful while less socially skilled students remain persecuted" - I went to secondary school both in Britain and the USA and the social aspect was very much overdone at the American school I attended but I think I saw more physical bullying in England 6. "only the very cocksure... (should) take the risks posed by America in the hope of finding the opportunities to become very rich" - first, many of the people who come here only hope to be comfortable; second, there is less of a social safety net than in Britain, for sure, but it takes balls to emigrate and luck, brains and hard work to make it
All the best, |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: mousethief Date: 03 Apr 01 - 05:16 PM It also seems that no-one has dared to synthesise the fear that most high schools are caricatured by the media be exaggerating existing unpleasant truths - thus, I imagine, schools remain ruled by "in-crowds" of jocks and the rich and beautiful while less socially skilled students remain persecuted. This I infer from silence. No need to infer. I will give you some data. I don't know about "ruled." That may be a little strong. Nevertheless, schools are very unpleasant places for the people around the fringes. If you belong to the great middle ground, you will probably fit in. But if you're too smart, or too stupid, or too odd-looking or -behaving, you will certainly be made miserable, at least for your first year in high school, and probably for all of them. Fortunately, although I was obnoxiously intelligent, I found a group to hang with that wasn't particularly despised (the debate team and the dungeons-and-dragons players, which largely overlapped), so I didn't get too much "persecution." Others, particularly the very poor who couldn't afford "cool" clothes, weren't so lucky.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Apr 01 - 11:15 PM While we're at it...here are some more thread titles along the same line: BS: Greenland - tropical paradise BS: Las Vegas - island of morality BS: New York City - small town America Cuba is socialist. It's not a utopia... But it is socialist. On the whole, I liked it. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: DougR Date: 04 Apr 01 - 12:57 AM Alex, your statement that you were "obnoxiously intellegent," what is obnoxious about being intelligent?Was that something you were told, or did you just surmise that. It's an interesting statement, I think. In regard to working toward a more socialist economy in the U. S., right, Alex, keep trying. Maybe someday the majority of the citizens in the U. S. may see things your way. I doubt it, but that shouldn't keep you from trying. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: mousethief Date: 04 Apr 01 - 01:47 AM Doug, I meant I was very intelligent, and obnoxious about it. You know, arrogant, in-your-face, that sort of thing. I'm afraid you're right on the majority of Americans. Looking Out For #1 is pretty ingrained here. Sigh. But a boy can try. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: DougR Date: 04 Apr 01 - 02:21 AM Oh, I understand now what you meant. Yep, Alex, keep trying! Can't lose hope that things will go the way you'd like them to. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Liam's Brother Date: 04 Apr 01 - 09:11 AM mousethief, I would like to commend you on your statement, "I meant I was very intelligent, and obnoxious about it. You know, arrogant, in-your-face, that sort of thing." I have never heard anyone credited with above average intelligence acknowledge that it's a double-edged sword that can be as much a nuisence as a blessing.
All the best, |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: Rick Fielding Date: 04 Apr 01 - 10:40 AM Doug. Sometimes I think I'm "obnoxiously intelligent". Not about anything that "counts" of course, like: how to change your oil, fixing a faucet, doing your own income tax form, or helping a seven year old with their math homework. More along the lines of: Identifying the guitar that Groucho Marx is playing in a canoe in "Duck Soup". (A Gibson L-5) and then noticing that there's an instant edit when he throws the guitar into the water. Only someone "obnoxiously intelligent" (or just plain obnoxious) can (and wants to) notice that the actual guitar flying through the air has suddenly morphed into a Stella. Oh, sorry. Back to the topic. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: USA - Socialist Utopia? From: mousethief Date: 04 Apr 01 - 11:13 AM Love your sarcasm, Doug. You're a man after my own heart. And wallet, but I'm willing to let that slide. Alex |