Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?

Subject: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 04:38 PM

Some time ago I read in a footnote to the song
"The Boys of Bedlam" (also "Mad Tom o'Bedlam")
that the name of the main character of that song,
Mad Maudlin (yes, it *is* one of my favourite songs;-)
is derived from the St. Magdalene's House (Hospital?)
the institution for women (it said Bedlam was for men
only). Then, yesterday, I came across the adjective
"maudlin" in one of the threads, and since I didn't
know the meaning I checked it in my dictionary and
found out what it means. Now I wonder, does this
adjective come from the same source as the name
"Mad Maudlin"? Anyone there who knows?

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Greyeyes
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 04:56 PM

According to my dictionary maudlin does come from Mary Magdalene, because she was generally portrayed as a tearful penitent, but it doesn't mention the hospital.

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 04:58 PM

That's why it's Maudlin College, rather than Mag da len college. Pretty stupid if you ask me, I never understood why.

Bored me to tears really.....:)

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 05:05 PM

French

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: MMario
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 05:05 PM

"Magdalene" in OE was "maudelyne" -

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 05:09 PM

Acording to Compact OED it's lacrymose, from weeping of Magdalen.

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Greyeyes
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 05:10 PM

The Oxford Companion to Eng.Lit. says Magdalene Hospital was a home for refuge and reformation of prostitutes, so not entirely the same as Bedlam, unless at the time they regarded prostitutes as mad, which is possible. That's exhausted my meagre resources at home. If no one else comes up with anything I'll check at work tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 05:14 PM

You could be incarcerated for life for just being left handed, choosing to live your life on the streets would be considered abnormal, so away they go.... My greatX4 grandmother had 11 children and had a fit during the birth of the last one. She spent the next (and last) 12 years in the local asylum.

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 06:13 PM

According to the concise Oxford Dictionary of Etymology, maudlin does indeed come from the early pronunciation of Magdalen. The latter comes from Old French via Old English as MMario suggests. The original root was Magdala - the place where eponymous Mary lived.

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 06:37 PM

And in France of course it's Madeleine.

Maudlin seems a very reasonable way to pronounce the name, myself, as in Magdalen College Oxford, and maintains the link with the adjective - in Cambridge they pronounce their Magdalene College with the hard G. Pays your money and you takes your choice.

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 06:47 PM

Only a Brit could say "maudlin" was a reasonable way to pronounce MAG-da-leen. They are constantly pronouncing things like WOR-CES-TER-SHIRE as "worstershurr" and all that. If they don't leave at least one whole syllable unpronounced, it feels wrong to them. They learned this from that period when they were ruled by the French, who resolutely refuse to pronounce the LAST syllable of their words. The Brits, not paying close attention to their overlords, shifted it to the penultimate syllable, with nary a blink of the eye.

:-)

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 07:33 PM

After 1500 years of speaking English, it's inevitable that some of the sharp edges get rubbed off.

But we're not tne only culprits - we still say "mir-ror", not "meer", And "Eu-rope" not "Yurp"

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 07:50 PM

Interesting, I often wondered about the etymology of that word. Still, the French had to get it somewhere and I'm guessing their source was Biblical. In that case the G in the original Greek might have been nearly silent resulting in the rendering we now find odd.

It's interesting that the English doesn't translate backward in the same way. I found the following translations for maudlin:

Translations for: maudlin

Deutsch (German): gefühlsselig

Français (French): larmoyant, mélancolique

Español (Spanish): sensiblero, llorón

Italiano (Italian): sdolcinato

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 08:02 PM

"Also in OE, it goes further to characterize 'maudlin drunk' as the "shedding of tears and effusive displays of affection."

Finally, I know what to call it!

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 04:53 AM

Wow, so many answers...who would have thought? Another great mystery of the English language solved - thanks folks ;-)

Mad but Enlightened Maudlin

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST,micca at work
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 05:24 AM

oh Stealer of Mice, If you think Worcestershire is a weird pronounciation, there is a place in that area written as Leominster...pronounced Lemster...

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 05:30 AM

And don't go to Dorset and call a certain village Punk Nowell, because it's called Punnull, spelt Puncknowle.

And you thought aluminium was bad!!!

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Shuffer
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 05:39 AM

As our US friends seem to have such a hard time with "English" ( It was ours first you know !) :) I will remind you of the famous quote "Two great nations only divided by a common language"

Cheers from Leicestershire Pronounced Lestershire

Geoff

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 05:51 AM

A wonderful old lady of 92 died recently, near here (Irish midlands). She ran a pub in place which appears on old maps as Maryrath, on new maps as Magheragh and is pronounced Mal-er-ah! And for once, I don't think the Irish language provides the explanation.

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 06:12 AM

Awww, senitilty...I meant to add something to Greyeyes' post but forgot: If I remember correctly, the Puritans were big in those days (the song was written in 1580). Trust them to lock prostitutes away under the pretext that they were mad! (You won't believe it, but I had an English teacher who thought the Puritans were the greatest people that ever walked the earth. Aaaaaaaaaaah!)

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 07:08 AM

One of the most fantastic pieces of sculpture in the world (IMO) is Donatello's Magdelene in the Museo dell'Opera del Duomo inFlorence - carved in wood in the late 1450s, it's a harrowing portrait of a woman distraught beyond belief.
Now that's maudlin for you.
On another tack entirely, or maybe not, tawdry has a similarly religious background; coming from the tattered garments once worn to commemorate St Audrey (and now worn by many rapper sides).

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 07:40 AM

Going back to the start of this thread, am I not correct in an understanding that "Bedlam" the institution was correctly called Bethlehem and the later meaning of the word as a cacophony was due to the noise created by the inmates.
GtD

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Grab
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 07:45 AM

Micca, you've missed out Towcester, pronounced "toaster"...

Anyway, it's all down to historical reasons, Alex. Sorry that America doesn't have any of that. ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: mkebenn
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 07:53 AM

Mousethief, you don't really pronounce that shire like the hobbit homeland, do you? Mike( a shurr sayer fer sure)

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 08:06 AM

Insisting on pronouncing every letter in a simple-minded painting-by-numbers style is a strange obsession they seem to have in some places. The sort of places where Wagner gets pronounced as if it was the name of a happy doggie. I dread to think how they must pronounce Mozart or Beethoven.

"Only a Brit" - hardly. When it comes to the business of ingenious spelling designed to fool the foreigners, the English are relative amateurs anyway.

Coemhen

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 08:53 AM

It could be worse, imagine the Gloucestershire Fetherstonehaughs and the Worscestershire Chesneys travelling from Cirencester to Alnwick to meet the Mainwarings.

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GMT
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 09:14 AM

Sorry to come in a bit late here. According to Ivor Brown's Book of Words "Our pronunciation of Magdalen must be at least as old as Shakespeare, for the name is spelt and pronounced Maudlin in All's Well". He also tells of the East Anglian verb Maudle as a back-formation of Maudlin, which signifies silly or sentimental through drinking, and itself derived from Magdalen.

Cheers Gary

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 09:17 AM

Geoff the Duck, you're right. That's the thing my dictionary *would* give me a clue about. Speaking about pronunciation, how about Grosvenor (pron. Growner?)

Mad Maudlin, lost in the jungles of phonetics ;-)

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 10:40 AM

Remember, America is where they think 100 years is a long time, and Europe is where they think 100 miles is a long way.

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 11:43 AM

, America is where they think 100 years is a long time, and Europe is where they think 100 miles is a long way.

And they are both dead right.

Incidentally, what was the name of that state Bill Clinton came from?

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 12:16 PM

This is fascinating! I especially like mousethief's explanation of British pronunciations. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a linguist friend, about how peoples tend to act as if they had agreed "let me borrow one of your words for a couple of centuries - I'll give it back, only slightly changed!"

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 12:24 PM

How else would one pronounce "Cockburn" in mixed company. JohnB

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 01:31 PM

I've yet to meet many English people that pronounce things the same way. Its a question of regional variation. Certainly the Maudlin of the song is derived from Magdalene as is the French name Madeleine (as in Little Duckling) If you say a word often enough (bearing in mind many people relied on the oral rather than the written) it will get abbreviated or even changed. As to pronunciation of place names I live in Yorksheer, Geoff comes from Bratfud, and a nightingale once sang in Barclee square (just round the corner from Growvner square).

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 01:48 PM

How else would one pronounce "Cockburn" in mixed company.

Behind one's hand?

Incidentally, what was the name of that state Bill Clinton came from?

ARE-kin-saw.

And the one just to the right of it is Mih-SIP-pee.

We can't help it if some of us descended from you guys. We're trying to shake it off.

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 02:21 PM

bedlam comes from Bethlehem since Magdalene is the same as Madeleine its not that far to Maudlin

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 02:33 PM

It's also not far to Mandolin, the music of which I sometimes find a touch Magdalene for my taste.

Murray

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 03:04 PM

Chambers Dict gives'from Gr Magdalene - woman of Magdala, from the assumption that Mary Magdalene was the penitent woman of Luke 7, 38@

What about the poor benighted foreigner who spent years perfecting his English , then on his first visi to England saw a poster reading 'Oklahoma pronounced success' (Sorry, you have to be of a certain age to understand this one!)

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 08:10 PM

And as George Bernard Shaw pointed out, you can spell "fish" as "ghoti" (tough, women, attention.

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Edmund
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 11:43 PM

Do I remember that the name Cholomondly is pronounced Chumley? Edmund

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 03:03 AM

Yesterday I read that there was a period of the Neolithic called Magdalenien. Does this mean they sat around in their caves all day, playing the prehistoric mandolin (hello Murray) and lamenting the good old days when mammoths still were huge and the saber-toothed tigers really could kick butt and everything was better in general? It should be renamed Maudlinien, then! :-)

Mad Maudlin, just being silly

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST,SeanM, having cookie issues
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 05:15 AM

Hmmm... I can understand the "Magdalene" connection, but I was always under the impression that the modern useage (i.e., melancholy, introspective) got a boost and slight redefinition from the definitely maudlin "Willie & Joe" cartoons from WW II, drawn by Bill Maudlin.

Any thoughts? Or was he just an appropriately named cartoonist?

M

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 05:41 AM

for Maudelin.... see Ella - my uncle died this morning, feel really fed up and maudelin

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: IanC
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 06:19 AM

Hi

Interesting thing

In Cambridge, we pronounce Magdelene as Maudlin (see above). I had always been told it was the other way about in Oxford!

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 08:36 AM

Edmund,

Indeed, Cholomondly (and Chalmondley) is pronounced "Chumley"; Mainwaring is pronounced "Mannering" and Featherstonehaugh is pronounced (wait for it)"Fanshaw" (don't ask me why).

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 08:58 AM

We can't even agree among ourselves - half the folks round here pronounce Alcester as Olsester and the other half say Olster. But however you say it, I hope to see plenty of 'Catters there for the Alcester and Arden Folk Festival in June.

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 09:18 AM

Since I moved to Airscot this Brummie has had to get used to going to "drink spotties".
Greek friends can't understand why my Greek is so much worse than their English as Greek is an entirely phonetic language while they have to struggle with the multiple pronunciations of "ough".
When asked to decipher Greek for colleagues at work I tell them I can read it out, but don't always (or usually!) know what it means!
Time to get the language tapes out again!
RtS

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Anglo
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 11:46 AM

SeanM said:

Hmmm... I can understand the "Magdalene" connection, but I was always under the impression that the modern useage (i.e., melancholy, introspective) got a boost and slight redefinition from the definitely maudlin "Willie & Joe" cartoons from WW II, drawn by Bill Maudlin.

Any thoughts? Or was he just an appropriately named cartoonist?
br>

Well, the cartoons might have been maudlin, but the cartoonists name was Mauldin.

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST, Snoopy
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 11:49 AM

I always go over to Bill Mauldin's house on Veteran's Day to quaff a few root beers.

Snoopy

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Anglo
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 11:53 AM

Walrus wrote:
It could be worse, imagine the Gloucestershire Fetherstonehaughs and the Worscestershire Chesneys travelling from Cirencester to Alnwick to meet the Mainwarings

OK I'll bite. Despite Worcestershire birth, I was never upper class enough to know how to pronounce Featherstonehaugh, Chesney,or Mainwaring. (I did once meet a ffolkes, though).

Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 11:55 AM

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