Help: The Foggy Dew: Sud el Bar? Huns?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 06:37 PM

Thank you, Jim, for your fast reply. I found some information about that book in the Internet but couldn't find it from Finland (surprise surprise...). Is it said where the name of the author was found? It's quite annoying to notice the information often go in circles. E.g. I have this book on Irish songs and it tells almost the exact same origins of the song as mentioned in this thread (author Charles O'Neill etc.). I checked the bibliography and found that www.mudcat.org is mentioned there...

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:57 PM

Minna:
In C Desmond Greaves' book 'The Easter Rising in Song and Ballad' the author of 'Foggy Dew' is given as The Rev. P. O'Neill - no more information, but I'll pass it on if I find it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Minna
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:29 PM

Hello,

I'm doing my bachelor's thesis on Irish nationalist music (most likely songs about Easter Rising) and I'm thinking of analysing The Foggy Dew. My problem is that I cannot find information about when the song was written and I can't get much out of the song itself. In many books (and also here) it's said to be written after 1919 and the earliest recordings and references in books I've found are from the 1940s/1950s. Can anyone help me? (I also need to know where the information is from to put it in the bibliography.) Another problem I have is the lyricist of the song. It seems to me that Charles O'Neill is the most believable author but I don't have any sources of that. I cannot find O'Boyle's book from Finland (at least in libraries) or travel to visit the archives in Ireland... Good someone recommend another book, website etc?

I already gave up on this song once because of these problems but decided to give it another try. I'd love to compare it with Erin go Bragh (Row in the Town). That might even give me a good basis to build on in my master's thesis... But that's still far away. Thank you for your help in advance.

Minna

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:53 PM

An earlier post mention Sinead O'Connor's version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13MQFCfCYdQ

However, she does sing "Moorlough Shore" as well, so perhaps that's where the confusion with lyrics comes in.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Cathal Brugha
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:08 AM

Just noticed this question about the pronunciation of my and my grandafther's name.
Generally Cathal is pronounced "Co hul" or, in Dublin, "Ca hal"

In the song Foggy Dew Brugha is pronounced using the Irish (language) version "Bru"

The English (language) version is pronounced "Bru a"

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: leprechaun
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:27 PM

Hi. It's me again.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,jak
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:30 PM

hi, im new o the thread, but i was wondering if anyone had any more information on the the version of the song by the dubliners ( the when i was a batchelour airy and young i followed the roving trade)

i know its similar lyrically to other versions but the dubliners version is in a minor key, as opposed to the happier version i've heard commonly

thanxs for any information

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:09 PM

I know it's a long time since this thread was current, but it may be of interest to add that John McC actually recorded TWO songs, "The Foggy Dew"; the one to which reference is made here, "As down the hill I rode one morn..." in 1913, and earlier, I think 1908, the slow one beginning "A wan cloud was drawn o'er the dim, weeping dawn". Incidentally, I hear two lines rather differently from suggestions given here, tho it's true that both of these acoustic recordings suffer from surface hiss: the maiden's eyes were
"bright as the dew that weeps
On the Shannon's verdant side", and at the end she
"The sigh'd in mine arms
And all her charms
Were hidden... in the Foggy Dew"

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:45 PM

This thread has more info on the names in 'The Band Played Waltzing Matilda', I think. Seems you're not the only one puzzled by 'Sula' or 'Suvla'.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,bats
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 04:24 PM

I didn't know the version of "Foggy Dew" that mentions Suvla but that battle is also mentioned in Eric Bogle's "The band played Waltzing Matilda". It had me puzzled for years, I thought it was "Sula Bay" and couldn't find it in the Atlas
    And how well I remember that terrible day,
    How our blood stained the sand and the water
    And of how in that hell that they called Suvla Bay
    We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
    Johnny Turk, he was ready, he primed himself well.
    He showered us with bullets, and he rained us with shells,
    And in five minutes flat, he'd blown us all to hell,
    Nearly blew us back home to Australia.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 04:28 PM

Not really an expert, but on the Dubliners recording I have the last version is used.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Cathal Brugha
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:17 PM

Can someone please help me with the pronunciation of Cathal Brugha. I've heard:

Cat hull brug
Ca hal Brug
Ca hal brug ha
Ca hal Brew

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 02:02 PM

Huns: the English liked to refer to the Germans as "Huns" at the time of the Great War, on the basis that (a) they behaved like the Huns when they ravaged Europe, and (b) they were descended from them. Irish nationalists returned the favour, for the same reasons.

Sud el Bar - a contemporary spelling:

Barnsley Royal Marines WWI


PLY 610/S L/Cpl. Chas. Harold BENFELL (No.4 Coy. Plymouth/2RM Gallipoli 1915) Demobilised 13/6/19.


Harold Benfell was one of three Barnsley lads who enlisted with Jack at Manchester 10/11/14.


Harold's account of the action at Sedd-ul-Bahr 4/3/15, from the Barnsley Chronicle, front page 10/6/16:- "On March 4th 1915, our company landed on the Gallipoli Peninsular to demolish the forts and I was one of the first to put a foot on the shore. I led the way to the entrance to the forts at Sud-el-Bar and within ten minutes of the time I received two bullets - one through the top left pocket and another under my right arm. For a second I stood gazing around to see where the man was that fired but he was concealed quite safe in some little place made for the purpose. Previous to that I signalled back to the OC that all was quite clear, the place seeming to be forsaken and quite dead; but we found it very much alive. More bullets came across and I made my way inside the forts for cover, though very little was to be found. I was followed there by two other men out of my section and we considered ourselves cut off from all communication. An hour passed away before we could get out of this place and the three of us lay there on the ruined wall which had been blown down by our ship's gun. The bullets were whizzing around us and I can assure you we had a very warm time and a lively experience. We were just cooling down when a line of heads was observed above a mound 25 yards in the rear. We three thought our time had come when just at the critical moment good luck favoured us, for instead of it being the enemy it turned out to be the remainder of our platoon, and the relief was too great for words! We managed to get back safely."

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 05:27 PM

I just want to add that Noel Murphy is still a very fine singer living near The Lizard. I saw him about 4 years ago and Derek Brimstone saw him last year. Ive got his number somewhere if you would like to book him - pm me. I got in contact when he wrote a series of enchanting articles about his childhood for the Irish Post.

he made a very creditable album with some fine musicians about five years ago, including the late and marvellously talented Aiden Ford.

Yes I suppose it was difficult in the 70's for Irish singers who lived in England - - living amongst the tide of tasteless Irish jokes the English were sheltering behind to conceal their fear of their closest neighbour. I know of at least one Irish singer who simply stopped working as an entertainer and did something else later to re-emerge.

Far more germane to to the situation was probably the sectarianism in the folk clubs around that time. Traddy versus everybody else. Immense pressure on performers to toe the party line - play in DADGAD tuned guitars, ornament simple tunes with 'grace' notes, finger in the ear, etc. The other success story of the era was of course folk comedians.

Noel was a straightforward minstrel with no po-faced pretensions and no hard edged comedy routine. i saw him round about that time doing the Boggery club in Solihull. The audience just had no concept of shutting the f--k up when he was doing something like Freeborn Man, or Rocky Road to Dublin. My god on his night though, Noel Murphy was bloody terrific and I loved his performances.

Yeh maybe he should have de-camped back to Ireland, but there were lots of great players who got it wrong there - I remember Johnny MacEvoy saying he'd got it wrong, round about the same time. And he was another jewel.

anyway peace and happiness to the lot of you!

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 05:33 AM

Good point Susanne. Yes, come to think of it, I've heard it sung that way too.The only way to know the date for sure is to find where and when the lyrics were first published. I'd be surprised if the answer couldn't be found in the NLI or UCD.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 03:16 PM

Many threads on "Foggy, Foggy Dew."

It was banned from the radio for many years for the very reason you suggest, and Burl Ives said he spent a night in jail once in Utah for singing it, around 1940.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 02:24 PM

What about the I was a bachelor foggy foggy dew? I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread at all... I recall something vague about it being banned because the bachelor had a son, so the line "so now I am a bachelor, I live with my son" was changed to "again I am a bachelor, I live with my son" - any info on that song, origins etc? Or is that for another thread?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Snuffy
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:57 AM

Is the tune not a relation of the Star of the County Down family?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 04:34 AM

Suzanne

I see what you mean! I'll try to check otherwise.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 06:24 PM

John, is that line in the original? I've heard "fought with Cathal Brugha", which is more ambiguous, and "fought with Valera true", which does even less to fix the time of writing after 1922.

Your quotation from the Down & Connor Diocesan Archives above gives no date of authorship. Also, contrary to Martin Ryan's post of 12 Nov. 1997, Cathal O'Boyle doesn't claim the song was written in 1919:

"The words of this song were composed by Canon Charles O Neill, who was parish priest of Kilcoo and later of Newcastle. In 1919 he went to Dublin and attended a sitting of the first Dail Eireann (Irish Parliament). He was moved by the number of members whose names were answered during roll call by "faoi ghlas ag na Gaill" (locked up by the foreigners) and resolved to write a song in commemoration of the Easter Rebellion. I have seen his song printed many times but have never seen his name mentioned and I think it is about time he was recognised. The music belongs to an old love song, recorded in 1913 by John McCormack and the original manuscript of the words and music, in the possession of Kathleen Dallat of Ballycastle, names Carl Hardebeck as the arranger." (Cathal O'Boyle, 'Songs of the County Down')

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 06:13 PM

From what I remember reading about the Rising (mostly the book Rebels, which is not at hand) Brugha was wounded pretty severely and lost consciousness-- would count as "fallen" to me!
Alternatively-- does "fallen" mean "fallen while fighting under the command of"?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 02:47 PM

I previously posted that the song was written in 1919, because I read that somewhere.

However, since the writer is aware of the death of Cathal Brugha, "fallen with Cathal Brugha", it couldn't have been written in 1919, as he died during the Civil War, on 7 July 1922.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FOGGY DEW (Chris Green, 1998)
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:24 AM

Don't know if it's of interest to anyone, but I wrote this version after the Drumcree fiasco in 1998.

The Foggy Dew 1998

Through Portadown in North Armagh
one summer's morn fair rode I
And grim-faced lines of marching men
in columns passed me by
No pipe did hum, but the lambeg drum
Did sound out its wild tattoo
And the rhythmic beat of the marching feet
Rang out in the foggy dew.

Oh, the eve fell black and the rifle's crack
Volleyed plastic bullets at the mass
And the sable night was made as daylight
By the petrol bombs' blinding blast
The talks and plans for a safer land
Were torn once again in two
And the ancient sore ran with blood once more
And stained the foggy dew.

I turned away then and rode off again
And my heart with grief was keen
For the chances fled and the needless dead
And the thought of how it could have been
But to and fro in my dreams you go
And I weep and I pray for you
May you orange and green soon together keen
For your fallen in the foggy dew.

Chris

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 06:11 AM

Further to my post of 29 March 02 re location of "Moorlough Shore", I have traced some info that convinces me that it is located on the River Foyle, near Strabane, on the Tyrone/Donegal (and the Irish/British) border. If anyone is interested, I can look out the details and post them later.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,marthabees
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:10 PM

Alice wrote: " Then SPIED in my arms... " at the end of the song

I wonder if that's "expired"..... Seems to make sense, anyway.

Martha in Tallahassee

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From:
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 02:21 PM

Does anyone know about the different takes of Burl Ives singing "The Foggy, Foggy Dew" (the romantic one, not the Irish revolutionary one)? On the original Stinson LP from 1949 his performance lasts 2:14. On the 1996 British CD reissue of early Ives songs there's a different take, identified as from a 1940 CBS broadcast. It's listed at 2:24, but actually only takes 1:54. What I want to know is: in what year was the version on the Stinson LP recorded?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 03:09 PM

Owen, current names used in Turkey (and new maps) were posted in a thread discussing the songs about Gallipoli. Try thread 40287: Suvla
I believe that this is the one. Enter Gallipoli in search and other threads come up.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Owen
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 01:22 PM

I to was perplexed by the reference to sud el bar however I did locate an area known as Seddulbahir a region in turkey that was involved in the invasion of Gallipoli,And Suvla etc. (I believe beach V during the invasion was in this area,) during the first world war. I believe Sud el Bar is a contracted spelling of this location
Any comments?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 04:27 AM

The authority for my post of 01 Feb 2002 is the [County] Down & Connor Diocesan Archives in Belfast. Their full entry record for Father Charles O'Neill is:

"Charles O'Neill, B.A.

Ord.[ained] on 21 July 1912.

Born in Portglenone, on 20 September 1887.
(brother to Fr. P.J.O'Neill, famed scholar of St Malachy's College [Belfast] and uncle of Revs. C. & M. Dallatt)

c.c. [curate in charge?] Whitehouse, 1915.

c.c. St. Peter's
(While c.c. in St. Peter's preached at ceremony at Mass Rock, Cushendun [Antrim] 1933 and for some of text see "Irish Colleges on Continent).

P[arish.P[riest]. Kilcoo, 15 July 1941

P.P. Newcastle 1 August 1955

Canon, October 1960

Author of the "Foggy Dew"

Died on 8 May 1963 and buried in Newcastle [County Down] cemetey behind old Church in main street."

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 08:48 PM

Can anyone clear up the P. O'Neill / C O'Neill debate for sure - who wrote the Foggy Dew? I am P O'Neill and I was brought up in the west of Scotland and taught (rightly in this climate) never to promote Irish rebel culture - but - the Foggy Dew was always in the background and remains one of the outstanding (and too good to be adopted by Glasgow "neds") Irish rebel songs.
As a P O'Neill myself, I would be interested to know who wrote this

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 11:44 PM

A problem with new atlases is the use of more politically correct names. In my National Geographic, Galipoli is Gelibolu, Seddelbahr is Seddülbahir, and there is no Suvla Bay or conversion that I can see.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: leprechaun
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 08:41 PM

I understand he was also a tenor.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 01:54 AM

Of course I refer to the rebel version only.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: leprechaun
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 06:55 PM

And I wonder if John McCormack was any relation to the Captain McCormack who was killed in the 1916 uprising. I've heard of another man born John McCormack who intended to return to Ireland from the state of Washington in 1916 to participate in the rebellion. The impending birth of his third son is likely the reason he didn't go.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 02:11 PM

The tune is traditional, almost certainly taken by Fr O'Neill from the very popular "Moorlough Shore". The origins of this song and the location of "Moorlough" or "moor lough" are uncertain but generally taken to be Moorlough Bay on the north Antrim coast, not a million miles from Portglenone where Fr O'Neill was born and raised. There was a very scholarly thread on "Moorlough Shore", last year I think.

Mrs Milligan-Fox was a sister of Alice Milligan, poet and patriot (1866-1953). It's just struck me that she was born in the same year as Mary Anne McCracken died - makes 1798 seem not all that far away!

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Alice
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 09:31 AM

Hi, Zena, good to see you here again. It is the lyrics that McCormack recorded that were written by Milligan, Clay doing just the arrangement of the tune. I don't think at all that Milligan wrote the tune. C. Milligan Fox wrote poems and had them set to existing airs. I don't know that she ever wrote music. I doubt it - I think she wrote lyrics.

Alice

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 12:56 AM

Well, I don;t know where the tune comes from, but I know the tune was just meant to be played on 5 string banjo! Scruggs-style (sorta)!

We played this song at a bluegrass festival and they loved it!

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Zena
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 12:38 AM

I've been trying to sort out where the tune comes from and not having much luck.

Alice theorized that Milligan wrote it on the basis of the credits on the John McCormack album, but I haven't been able to substantiate this. The record I have just says "Milligan-Clay" and doesn't mention composer or arranger like the info from the McCormack website.

It sounds like Milligan may have collected the song or at least arranged it. Perhaps McCormack used Milligan's arrangement that Clay then tweaked in his accompaniment, thus the credit to Clay as well. I guess the tune and love song lyrics are both traditional, though I'm surprised that McCormack didn't identify it as such. If anyone has further info, I'd be very interested to hear it.

Zena

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From:
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 04:59 PM

Just to put it on the map, Sedd-el-Bahr is at the end of the Gallipoli peninsula, some two kilometres from Cape Helles, and thirty kilometres from Suvla Bay. It was the scene of the initial assault on the peninsula on February 19, 1915.

The Royal Navy had been in the area for several months at that time and had had engagements with the Turks already.

Jack

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 03:21 PM

The Fighting Men of Crossmaglen is on many a rebel compilation CD, it's a good rebel song, in the tradition of Broad Black Brimmer, but very one-sided, not surprisingly. Re authorship of Foggy Dew I have since done some research in Belfast and found the following: the rebel version was written by Fr.(Canon) CHARLES O'Neill, born in Portglenone in 1887, died Newcastle (Down) in 1963. He was based in parishes in Belfast, Kilcoo and Newcastle. Buried in Newcastle. I got a photo of him with De Valera and Frank Aiken (IRA Chief of Staff in 1923 after death of Liam Lynch, and later minister in Free State Gov). Fr Charles had a brother, Patrick, also a priest with whom he is often confused re authorship of Foggy Dew. Charles NOT Patrick wrote it!

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: leprechaun
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 02:53 AM

I thought this thread looked familiar.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 02:55 AM

There's also a nice version Here with notes from John Moulden.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 02:52 AM

WyoWoman.

The version I sing is in the DT Here

Regards

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: WyoWoman
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 11:59 PM

Ryan, do you have the words to "The Banks of the Moorlough Shore"?

WyoWoman

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Ard Macha
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 08:38 AM

Guest O`Brien you are breaking a Mudcat house rule, start a new thread. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Guest Ard Mhacha
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 08:36 AM

I have never heard of a song with that title, it may be The Dalin` men from Crossmaglen, sung by Tommy Makem. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST, O'Brien
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 08:16 AM

Anybody know who wrote"the fighting men from Crossmaglen"

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 02:49 PM

Yes W. Shouldn't be too hard to find. Come you Dubliners!

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:08 AM

As for the author, I checked all my songbooks last night. About ten with this song in them don't mention it or state 'anonymous'. Three mention an author. Soodlum's as posted above by Big Tim.
C. O'Boyle, Songs of Co. Down, says 'Canon Charles O'Neill'
C.D. Greaves, The Easter rising in song and ballads, says 'Rev. P. O'Neill'

Nothing conclusive. I'm surprised that less than a century after the song was written, the authorship can be under debate.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 09:30 PM

Alas, we have FOURTEEN 33 & 1/3 albums (LPs) by John M. and a turntable that quit. Some of it is on cassette but nowhere near enough. For our 35th wedding anniversary, my dream is to have all of that music put on CDs for Carol. I'm afraid that January 3rd is aproaching too quickly for me to get it done for our next celebration---but does anyone know an outfit that does this kind of thing for folks?

Art Thieme