critique of Irish rebel songs by a Unionist

Subject: critique of Irish rebel songs by a Unionist
From: Wolfgang Hell
Date: 11 Nov 97 - 08:34 AM

There are many critiques of songs in the web, but this is a gem: A critique of Irish Republican music by someone of the opposite political camp ("the foe", if you want), i.e. by an Ulster Unionist (loyalist). He obviously has listened closely before writing the critique. If you happen to know the songs he is talking about (parts of the lyrics are included) you'll enjoy the article. If you want to read for yourself follow me.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: critique of Irish rebel songs by a Unionist
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Nov 97 - 09:31 AM

two corrections:
1. "He" should have been replace by "the author".
2. The author comes from the opposite camp but is not necessarily a unionist or loyalist.

Subject: RE: critique of Irish rebel songs by a Unionist
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 11 Nov 97 - 12:11 PM

Interesting site! Mind you - an analysis of Orange songs would not be all that different. The traits exhibited are pretty universal - even the sentimentality (see "Orange Maid of Sligo" in the DT).

Regards

Subject: RE: critique of Irish rebel songs by a Unionist
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 11 Nov 97 - 12:22 PM

An interesting omission from the critique is any recognition of non-Catholic republicanism - apart from a very oblique reference.I see another article on the site that might cover it.

Incidentally, Wolfgang, I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion the author is a Unionist!

Regards

Subject: RE: critique of Irish rebel songs by a Unionist
From: Bo
Date: 11 Nov 97 - 02:38 PM

I thought it was an interesting site. It would be a refreshing thing if all sides could openly talk about each others culture, considerring so much of it is shared.

bo

Subject: RE: critique of Irish rebel songs by a Unionist
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 11 Nov 97 - 04:04 PM

Yes, the review of "The summer soldiers" - a book about the 1798 rebellion is good. See "The Belfast Shoemaker" and "Henry Joy" in the DT, for example.

Regards

Subject: RE: critique of Irish rebel songs by a Unionist
From: alison
Date: 11 Nov 97 - 10:21 PM

Hi

I don't reckon he is a unionist, none of them I have met acknowledge the republican songs, they don't need to, they have plenty of their own expressing their point of view.

The Orange songs are along the same lines as the Republican ones, however they don't get sung as much, with the notable exception of things like "The old orange flute.", which seems to be OK becuase it's taking the mickey out of the whole stupid situation.

Speaking as someone from "the opposite camp"(a term which I intensely dislike, by the way!)I reckon people and songs should be judged by their own merits, ie. a good song is a good song, and therefore deserves to be sung. End of my rant.......

By the way I now have the tune for SIng Irishmen Sing, if anyone's interested.

Slainte

Alison

Subject: RE: critique of Irish rebel songs by a Unionist
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Nov 97 - 08:38 AM

Martin, my conclusion was plainly wrong, as I see it now. I saw the words "Ulster Nation" on that site and had instantaneously but erroneously the notion this could be but a Unionist publication. I realized later I was wrong.

Speaking of the merits of the songs (Alison rightly reminds us that that is the only relevant dimension of judgement), the quality of Irish rebel songs is extremely variable. I like very much songs with true sentiment like "Only our rivers" if they do not denounce other positions or feelings, I mostly like songs telling a story from history, even if perhaps onesided, e.g. "Roddy McCorley", I have very mixed feelings about songs displaying positive feelings for arms and armed fighting, "Sniper's promise" for instance, and I dislike songs attacking individuals or the other side in general, if a certain human respect is missing. I take the example from another thread: If a writer thinks "Britannia's huns" is a better expression for his feelings than "Britannia's sons" then he is far from what I find acceptable.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: critique of Irish rebel songs by a Unionist
From: leprechaun
Date: 13 Nov 97 - 02:18 PM

I wonder if the huns/sons controversy is due to an oral tradition, and the result of an auditory mistake. If the song was passed from performer to performer without the aid of written lyrics, the words could have been interpreted incorrectly.

But if you have songs that say croppies lie down and kick the pope, then you get songs about stangers stealing an old woman's jewels and fields, and about cowardly yeoman being put to flight.

Music and poetry are about emotion.

Subject: RE: critique of Irish rebel songs by a Unionist
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 13 Nov 97 - 11:41 PM

...and some are about the emotions that keep people from doing what they should--emotions such as hate for everyone in a certain category, or patriotism connected with historical falsehood. Those songs and poems (and paintings and and and...) can be a little dangerous to the people who like them, and to the people those people hate.

In other words, an artistically good but morally bad song deserves to be sung only if you don't let it change your mind. Which isn't that hard.