BS: War with Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 07:04 AM

It's morming and I am sober. Hungover, but thinking considerably more clearly than last night. I just read my posts of last night. Anyone know if a breathalizer can be connected to a keyboard ?

That's why they call me gnu. Every time I go to the waterhole, I drink like a wild beast.... and then act like an ass.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 11:54 PM

First of all - while Briatian is fairly good at winning war they suck at winning peace (or maybe they just good-naturely gave up nearly their entire empire.

Secondly, If I was Canada, I'd worry about St. Pierre & Miquelon. Their police force might just give the good old Mounties a run. At the very least the U.S. doesn't let a bunch of French people own a few islands that should be ours. It's bad enough that we have to drive through Canada to get to Alaska.

What's up with St. Pierre & Miquelon anyway? Are they going to leave France when Canada finally tells Quebec to leave? And if Quebec goes independent - will the Eastern povinces split and create New Canada? And will Canada finally give province status to the territories (including Nunavut?

Enquiring minds want to know.

As you know, we will never let Puerto Rico become a state - not because of racism or anything like that- but because U.S.ers are more comfortable with even numbers and our flag would look wierd with 51 stars (3 rows of 17 stars, maybe?)

just joking yall

have a great weekend

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Naemanson
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 11:25 PM

Charlie said earlier this evening that this thread was getting serious. I'm glad I missed it.

Can we persuade any of the Canadians to invade and burn the White House again? I really don't like this decor any better than the Puce House and the occupant is truly a pain in my backside.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 09:12 PM

As the "Invincible knight said in Monty Python and the holy grail when Arthur cut off his arms and legs, "Alright, we'll call it a draw". FYI Gnu, my ancestors invaded England with Wm. the conqueror in 1066.They were originally Vikings who settled in Normandy, so,I love a good heated debate, and, I've even been called a "berserker" by an old shipmate. However, I do not like to fight. My dark side loves it, so, I dont let it out if I can help it. TO ALL CANADIANS...LIVE LONG AND PROSPER!

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: GUEST,TJ
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:57 PM

gne wrote "The Brits haven't lost a war since 1066 !!!! Get used to it !!!!"

If you are so good then why did we have to save your ass during those last two scraps with German? ;-)

But more importantly why do British women prefer American guys?

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:21 PM

No quarrel. No comment. No winner. No draw. No animosity.

Long live the true north strong and free. God bless America.

I apologize for my rancorous comments and baiting. Twas uncalled for and I just was looking for a fight. Common amongst my upbringing and shameful, to say the least.

Kendall.... I am sincerely sorry for my posts above. They were, at best, pathetically pompous and arrogant.

gnu

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:18 PM

no daddy was otherwise occupied leaving us almost a state. THE BRITS did try to beat the usa and were rather embarrassed in the effort back in the previous war

as a part acadien and part cape breton scott i have to say i am definetely ambivalent about the idea. aacadiens did quite a bit better down in louissainna than in the old home land (untill recently anyway--trudeau did a lot for the out lying french minorities in canada)and scotts from nova scotia used to go to boston for work. i still have relatives there.

i might like being american.

in fact i've thought of going down to new orleans to busk and maybe wander out on the bayou and see if there are any relatives ... common ca va eh!

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Kelticgrasshopper
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:15 PM

OOPS I SLIPPED

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Kelticgrasshopper
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:13 PM

If any politician living can make an enemy out of Canada it will be BUSH.. he has now named one of the most pompus , and I hate to say it but I will STUPID leaders to be ambassador. Cellucci has raised havoc with the education system here in Massachusetts, he lives in a dream world. I'm sure he hasn't a clue where PEI is and I doubt that he cares. The only war going on now is the potato WAR..and that is sad and devistating to small farmers on PEI.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Kelticgrasshopper
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:12 PM

If any politician living and make an enemy out of Canada it will be BUSH.. he has now named one of the most pompus , and I hate to say it but I will STUPID leaders to be ambassador. Cellucci has raised havoc with the education system here in Massachusetts, he lives in a dream world. I'm sure he hasn't a clue where PEI is and I doubt that he cares. The only war going on now is the potato WAR..and that is sad and devistating to small farmers on PEI.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:09 PM

gnu, are you saying your daddy can beat my daddy?

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:07 PM

well actually i'm canadian but no brit. but the brits have lost a few . remeber the irish revolution. or maybe the kenyan revolt that led to the pull out from africa. the old empire often pulled out and declared vistory! good pr but poor history.

i remain with my position that canada won a well deserved draw. we didn't participate in the events at new orleans or the burning of washington.

the usa did by the way burn york--our capital at the time which resulted in the capital being moved to ottawa. giving us the second coldest capital in the world.. ulan bator in mongolia is colder. moscow is the tropic compared to an ottawa winter. maybe the yanks won after all.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:05 PM

GNU I have no quarrel with Canada. I dont want a quarrel with Canada. So, when you say the Brits havn't lost a war since 1066, there is a damn good reason. The USA has always been on their side since the War of 1812. How do you account for the British surrender at Yorktown? Are you going to turn that into a victory? Explain...

Now, for all to see, to our friends across the border, and to anyone else who may be upset by my cavalier comments about the War of 1812. I was trying to head off a pissing contest by downplaying the importance of that war. you took offence, and that was not my intent at all. So, to you or anyone else who may have misread me, I do most sincerely apologize.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 07:49 PM

ollaimh said... we didn't manage to conquer the us so it was realistically a draw.

Say what ? Conquer the US ? Never a consideration. Therefore, never a draw. Why do so many people try to defend the fact that the US lost the WAR OF 1812 by slighting it ? Are you Yanks so insecure that you cannot even admit to the fact that you lost to the most advanced war machine on the planet ? The Brits haven't lost a war since 1066 !!!! Get used to it !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 07:25 PM

no one3 can honestly claim a victory in the war of 1812.

the americans did very badly considering they invaded canada twice with numbers almost equal to the whole canadian population, but they were ill trained conscripts and the natives were on canada's side and provided valuable raiding strength and reconance, while denying the americans supplies off the land and stoping them sending out any effective reconosance raids. however canada only rebuffed two invasions we didn't manage to conquer the us so it was realistically a draw.

from canad's point of view that's pretty good as canad's population was aproximately one twentieth of the us and the brits had little help tp send as they were rather tired up with that bum napolean.

as for cretien having no western support--that's a total myth. the liberals hold 15 seats out west out of 82, a significant presence on the caucaus. they have strenght out west in all the urban ridings and a few northern ones where the native vote swings the day. it the waspy rural west--still a significant force out there--that suppoert the right wing parties. the liberals have traditionally held together a coalition of catholics, urban poor and middle calss and new immigrants. in modern canada that will get you elected ten times out of ten. in fact the success of the tories under mulroney was because he stole the liberal postions successfully. this got him to power butleft his traditional western right wingers sorely disapointed as they had little more influence than under the liberals. these waspy rightists have a real problem with being a minority in a country they once ran like a private club, but as the western urban vote grows they will fade into well deserved obscurity.

the leader of the reform/alliance(one of the right wing parties, based in the west) didn't know that canada was majority catholic in an interview before the last election. well he's was in the alberta government and catholics a few and far between out there but in the population centers of canada they are huge in numbers especially east of the ottawa river.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 06:43 PM

Kendall said, in response to my request for an explanation of why he stated above, "Even though we sorta won the War of 1812, .... " .... gnu..are you serious? The war of 1812 didnt even rate a name. Hell, it was more of a mis-understanding than a war. The way I read it, both sides simply said "Screw it, lets go back to the way we were."

SIMPLY SAID !!!!???? Tell that to all the Americans that lay dead and suffering at the feet of Brock in the WAR OF 1812. A lot of Americans tried to get up that hill in the main battle and were cut down in the line of fire. THEY GAVE THIER LIVES FOR AMERICA. And you call it a "mis-understanding" !!!!???? C'mon, man. You said you "sorta won". Was that idle banter or Yankee puffing ? or WHAT ?

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: GUEST,Bill Clinton
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 03:23 PM

Miss me , don't you? I feel your pain my Canadian friends, I feel your pain.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 01:17 PM

gnu..are you serious? The war of 1812 didnt even rate a name. Hell, it was more of a mis-understanding than a war. The way I read it, both sides simply said "Screw it, lets go back to the way we were."

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Naemanson
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 12:43 PM

Actually, in reading Nagle's journal it was a bit of a problem getting home. Plus, as you say, he had made it his career. I had the sense, in reading it, that there was an ulterior reason for not going home. It may have been that he never got the chance.

There is a great description of walking the streets of London and meeting a young prostitute. Plus Nagle was present at some of the great events of the time. He was in China for the Jupiter incident and on the ship that delivered the first convicts to New Zealand. He was shipwrecked on NZ for quite some time.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 12:34 PM

Naemanson - I'd love those words. I would eventually like to put together some sort of presentation about the Sailing Navy (with songs of course). There's plenty of shanty stuff done but not so much about men-o-war's-men.

Some Americans served in the Royal Navy as a career. People forget that to some this was a career. They fairly dreaded peace breaking out!

Les

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Naemanson
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 12:20 PM

Les from Hull, I was once looking through a book of broadsides and came upon a song of the women attacking a press gang and taking their men back from them. the song described a great battle. I should go back and get the words.

Impressment was a tough thing to deal with if you were an English subject in an English town. Imagine how tough it was to be captain of an American vessel and have it stopped on the high seas and searched for "English citizens"! And with the Revolution such recent history it was difficult to tell English from Americans. So mistakes were made and the wrong men were pressed into the English Navy.

BTW, though his story begins during the Revolution Joseph Nagle's journal makes fascinating reading. He started out as a Continental soldier fighting in land battles. Somehow he ended up on an American privateer, was captured by the English while on one of the French Carribean islands, was pressed into the English Navy and served the next 20+ years as a British tar. He ended his days wandering from family member to family member in Western Pennsyvania living off of their chrity and a modest pension from his time in the Contiental Army. Good story and it's all true!

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Willie-O
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 12:01 PM

Well, the trouble with Chretien is not that he's dumb. He's not, he's very shrewd although he mangles the English language in a fashion which makes Dubya, Dubya Senior or Dan Quayle look downright erudite. (It's not his native tongue).

But he's widely regarded these days as being arrogant and indifferent to the popular will. Because he HAS a majority mandate to govern, which we have given him twice, (although with a conspicuous absence of support west of Ontario. Canadian political demographics make the west irrelevant, which pisses them off endlessly.)

Rick Mercer said last week "Chretien could show up at a press conference tomorrow, pull out a crack pipe and fire it up, tell us all to go to hell and then declare war on the aliens, and he's still govern the country and do whatever the hell he wants with it for the next three years."

Both the right wing parties and the sadly diminished and scattered left are equally pissed off about all this. They're even cooperating strategically in some ways to combat the MANDATED government, but there's not a damn thing they can do until they can figure out how to get more votes than the Liberals. Or at least deny them a majority next time.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 10:51 AM

Perhaps South Park the Movie was far more serious than I thought!

Has the USA arrested any Canadian Terence or Philip for corrupting young minds recently? And can we expect the news that Saddam Hussain has been trampled to death by Wild Pigs to be made public in the next few days....?

If you need to ask just watch the Movie (but don't blame me!)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: annamill
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 10:44 AM

Willie-O and Peter and everyone, thank you for the other side of this situation. I feel so much better knowing Bush isn't the only stupid one ;-) I've got to get over to the Kyoto thread and do some more learning.

Love, annamill

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Willie-O
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 10:22 AM

Annamill, that original post is not really very accurate in its overall suggestion that Canada-US relations are "usually trouble-free". We almost always have resource-based trade disputes going on, and the softwood lumber thing is not real relevant to who won the White House. The reason it is happening now is that the five-year Softwood Lumber Agreement expired last week without an extension or new treaty in place and the American producers are of course looking for terms more favourable to them. (They can only frame it as an issue of government subsidy, namely low stumpage fees paid by timber companies that log Crown land. Probably a bigger factor in the low price of Canadian lumber in the US is the Canadian dollar being at an all-time low of 63.5 cents US, which gives us a huge free-market economy trading advantage right now..)

Incidentally, I think they're right about the stumpage fees being too low. Many environmental groups on both sides of the border are supporting the US timber producers. And the biggest "Canadian" companies benefiting are actually ...Weyerhauser, Stone Consolidated and other US multinationals.

Canada's response to Bush's shameless reneging on Kyoto has been embarrassingly wimpy. Poutine finally said something? Whoopee. Peter's right in his assessment.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: MichaelM
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 10:05 AM

From a outsider's viewpoint it seems the wars get started when the administration needs to distract the populace from some major domestic screw-up (bread and circus maximus). Give the President lots of busy work without too much national strife and maybe he won't feel the need for the foreign fireworks display.

N.B. Without getting into a just/unjust dialogue I am not slagging the U.S. military wholesale.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: annamill
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 09:29 AM

We just keep learning with Mudcat.. Bush scares the hell out of me.. Can we keep him from starting a war for four years?...

Love, annamill

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 09:05 AM

Jean Chretien is a one-faced liar and hypocrite. He is currently trying to sell off the rest of Canada to the United States through a continental energy grid. He is even boasting about pumping billions into the Alberta tar sands, and opening up the Northwest Territories to keep the Americans from their own Refuge. And simultaneously talking about how Canada will meet its Kyoto committments, and worrying about the Americans. They are both idiots, are bent on degrading the planet, and deserve each other.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:36 AM

MichaelM.... excellent !!!! ROTFL !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: MichaelM
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:17 AM

So, Naemanson, the whole war was merely cover for a torch job for the insurance money. Clever,bloody clever.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:15 AM

Naemanson, you didn't have green cards then. So quite a few British merchant sailors took the opportunity to swear before an American Justice that they were Americans and so got a paper that they hoped would save them from impressment. Also there were a number of cases of British sailore deserting to American ships, who refused to hand them back.

I'm not defending impressment. In my home town there were cases of women attacking the press gang to get their husbands back. But it wasn't piracy.

It's a good point about Maine, though. Apparantly there were quite a few British sympathisers up there that worked out a good deal with their enemies. Loyalists, I think they were called. God knows why!

Didn't they try to smooth out the Maine border out at that time? What was all that about?

Little Hawk - by the time of the Battle of New Orleans we had already finished the big war with Napoleon (and we hadn't started the little one yet) so the British troops were largely veterans of that conflict. The trouble was that the generals were all second division ones. The good ones didn't want to get involved in a litte war with a minor nation!

Les from Hull (not the one in Canada and nothing to do with the Commodore of that name).

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:14 AM

Kendall... Even though we sorta won the War of 1812 ??? Please do share your knowledge and insight. I would welcome a second opinion - the history books are so boring, what with all those facts and such.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:03 AM

The PUCE HOUSE? that is funny! Even though we sorta won the War of 1812, the British military didn't leave until 1835. Their last outpost was vacated at Castine.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 07:49 AM

Naemanson... piratical British Navy.... and privateers, scoundrels and thieves. "Oh, the Yankee lay low down with gold,...

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Naemanson
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 07:07 AM

Little Hawk wrote, "It was the War of 1812 I was talking about. The one where the USA tried to invade Canada several times. Nobody exactly won that one in a decisive sense...it just eventually petered out..."

Actually there was a winner. It was the economies of Eastport and southern New Brunswick. During the embargo and the blockade Eastport, Maine, was the busiest port in the USA. The accounts I've read describe the regular "discovery" of abandoned, fully loaded schooners in the seas off Eastport. The schooners would be taken into port and unloaded and the goods would be carried down the coast by ox cart. The newspapers took to announcing the arrivals of these carts just as they used to announce the arrivals of ships in the pre-embargo days.

By the way, the harbors of the US were closed BEFORE the War of 1812 by presidential decree when Monroe(?) declared an embargo to protect American sailors from the depredations of the piratical British Navy.

And, by the way, we let the British burn the White House. We didn't like the decor. It used to be the Puce House.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 07:04 AM

Change that last sentence as follows..... to the point that he questions your abilities, MORE OR LESS, PUBLICALLY, you've got to be a little stunned.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 06:57 AM

Heard on the radio yesterday that Jean complained about Bush in Cabinet ( or some such venue, can't remember exactly ). Apparently, when he started to discuss the PEI potato crisis with Garge, he had to explain to him where and what PEI is. And he had some none too kind words for Bush's knowledege of the US's largest trading partner.

Now, if you can piss off one of the most politically astute persons on this earth to the point that he questions your abilities, you've got to be a little stunned.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: mkebenn
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 06:40 AM

I don't know, I'd miss my Sleeman's, maybe I'll defect, I'm only 15 miles from Fort Erie..Mike

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 06:40 AM

Roll&Go-C said... you can have all of Old Orchard Beach to yourselves.

No thanks. Too cold. We prefer to beach along the Northumberland Straight - the warmest waters north of the Carolinas.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 06:36 AM

Kendall. Re Maine going deep into Canada. The story I heard is that the Brits leading the peace negotiating committee didn't know which river system was which and simply screwed up at the talks. Otherwise, Irving would own most of north/east Maine as well. Of course, that's underway as we speak, er, type.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 03:23 AM

Besides what Ebbie says, I think we are constantly reminded of our own country's sorry history of slavery because the discrimination is still very prevalent. Abolishing slavery had not brought about true equality, but then we may never see that, unless we all went colour blind and also asexual, so that gender-bias was gone, too.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 01:31 AM

Because we don't see it, don't live with it? We are not directly confronted by it, we don't have a face to go with it. It is not personal to us.

As good as the media are in creating appetites and attitudes in the populace, why aren't they showing this on our evening news? And why are we not demanding it?

So, Troll, do you know anyone who is haranguing the media on the subject?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Troll
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 12:34 AM

On the subject of slavery, where is the great public outcry about the documented practice of slavery in northern Africa?
Where is the outrage?
The US is still being castigated some 135 years after the abolition of slavery but no one mentions its continued practice in places like the Sudan.
Why is that?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 12:12 AM

In the news yesterday, indications were given that Cretien and his cabinet may back down on the Kyoto accord. It's the old story of the mouse living with the elephant. All Canada can do is try to put its views forward, but will have to bend to some extent. Bush has called for a global energy policy- I hope Canada has the will to resist the possible pillage of its remaining resources.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 12:02 AM

In the ways of weasel-wording politicians everywhere and in all times, please note that the language of that article refers to the abolition of the traffic in slaves and not to the institution itself. The African slave trade was actually, legally, outlawed in the US in 1807. That certainly doesn't mean it stopped, however, but this article pledged the two nations to work together to reduce it.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 10:45 PM

Now I am miffed at the United States; how can we as a nation have continued practicing and protecting the institution of slavery until 1864 when it was forcibly negated when we had, as a nation, agreed as early as 1814 that it was wrong and we would try to abolish it?

Treaty of Ghent

ARTICLE THE TENTH.

Whereas the Traffic in Slaves is irreconcilable with the principles of humanity and Justice, and whereas both His Majesty and the United States are desirous of continuing their efforts to promote its entire abolition, it is hereby agreed that both the contracting parties shall use their best endeavours to accomplish so desirable an object.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 10:30 PM

ever hear of 54 40 or fight?

The Webster Ashburton treaty of 1843? ever notice how the state of Maine goes deep into Canada? Were these losses? On second thought, northern Maine is no great prize.. Seriously, let's not lose the humor here. If this thread becomes rancorus, I'm gone.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Extra Stout
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 10:11 PM

I am unalterably opposed to war with Canada. We're still paying for rebuilding Germany and Japan. We can't afford to win another war just now.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 09:27 PM

Don't forget the THIRD invasion of Canada from the US, when Irish Fenians, mostly Civil War veterans, raided north several times in the late 1860s and early 1870s.

Subject: RE: BS: War with Canada?
From: Matt_R
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 09:20 PM

Oh I wish I was back in old Canada
A land which I never shall lampoon
How I pine for the ice covering Lake Manitoba
And the beauty that is Saskatoon

I wish I was stuck in the hills of Alberta
Drinking beer with some big dumb guy trapping fur
As he scraped and he chiselled all the moose dung off his boots
I would learn that he was the Prime Minister

Oh I wish I was in the land that gave us Peter Jennings
Alanis Morissette, Mike Myers too
No I take that back, I wouldn't go there even if you paid me
O Canada, you are a place I must eschew

Oh I wish I was blowing up Prince Edward Island
And going on to bomb Ontario
The destruction of Canada and all of it's culture
Is by far my favorite scenario

Just where the Hell does Canada get off sharing a border
With countries far superior to it?
Well, you lousy, stinking francophonic bacon-loving bastards
Your country's just a giant piece of s***t!