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Rewards & Fairies

Ringer 07 Apr 01 - 06:51 AM
GUEST 07 Apr 01 - 11:51 AM
Matt_R 07 Apr 01 - 11:56 AM
Amergin 07 Apr 01 - 12:00 PM
GUEST 07 Apr 01 - 05:17 PM
CarolC 07 Apr 01 - 06:15 PM
Amergin 07 Apr 01 - 06:21 PM
CarolC 07 Apr 01 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 07 Apr 01 - 06:34 PM
GUEST 07 Apr 01 - 06:36 PM
CarolC 07 Apr 01 - 06:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Apr 01 - 06:55 PM
Matt_R 07 Apr 01 - 08:28 PM
CarolC 07 Apr 01 - 08:33 PM
Bob Bolton 07 Apr 01 - 09:22 PM
Midchuck 07 Apr 01 - 09:42 PM
CarolC 07 Apr 01 - 09:50 PM
Amergin 08 Apr 01 - 01:08 AM
Penny S. 08 Apr 01 - 06:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Apr 01 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 08 Apr 01 - 02:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Apr 01 - 08:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Apr 01 - 05:15 AM
Ringer 09 Apr 01 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Bruce O. 09 Apr 01 - 11:28 AM
tiggerdooley 09 Apr 01 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,Sue 09 Apr 01 - 04:48 PM
Callie 09 Apr 01 - 07:59 PM
Geoff the Duck 09 Apr 01 - 09:12 PM
Ringer 10 Apr 01 - 06:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 01 - 07:14 AM
Ringer 06 Aug 01 - 03:34 AM
Ebbie 06 Aug 01 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Willa 06 Aug 01 - 03:01 PM
Joe_F 06 Aug 01 - 07:02 PM
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Subject: Rewards & Fairies
From: Ringer
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 06:51 AM

Just been listening to Peter Bellamy singing some Rudyard Kipling poems which he set to music (and IMHO very well, too). Some of the poems come from Kipling's book, Rewards and Fairies. I recall that my mother, b 1908, used to insist that the book's title was to be pronounced "roo-ards...". Anyone know why?


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 11:51 AM

As opposed to what? I pronounce it the same way as your Mum


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Matt_R
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 11:56 AM

It should be said "ree-woreds"


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 12:00 PM

most likely because of the area she or her family was from...


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 05:17 PM

ree-woreds is American; my roo-ards is UK


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 06:15 PM

I say ruh-wards. What does that make me?


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 06:21 PM

a very sexy sounding woman?


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 06:28 PM

(*thanks Amergin*)

Here's an interesting thing. When I was in Canada, a lot of the people there thought I had a Canadian accent.

I grew up in Rhode Island and Maryland (just outside of DC), but apparently I don't have the accent of either of those places.

Love Kipling, though.


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 06:34 PM

Ask Bishop Corbet. He wrote the song "Farewell rewards and fairies", a little before 1625. To be sung to "The Meadow Brow" by the learned, and "Fortune my Foe" by the unlearned. It's significant that only "Fortune my Foe" has survived. For the song see Ault's 'Seventeenth Century Lyrics'.


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 06:36 PM

Carol,

I have always wanted to try it. Care to teach me how to kipple?

A


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 06:43 PM

Ooohhh, you mysterious guest who goes by the initial A, you. Whatever do you mean?


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 06:55 PM

"my roo-ards is UK" - that's a fair bunch of countries, with a whole range of accents, dialects, and languages. I've never heard it pronounced that way - where was she from?


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Matt_R
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 08:28 PM

I believe "A" is Amos!

And Carol, I'd have to agree with Nathan.


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 08:33 PM

(*thanks Matt*)

Amos, that you? Why are you a guest?


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 09:22 PM

G'day all,

Down here in the Antipodes (Sydney, Australia) I have never heard the "roo-ards) pronunciation ... even from assorted regional Englishpersons. I checked with The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, Third Edition, 1944, 2nd revision 1973, 1991 reprint ... and it only recognises the "ree-wards" (sorry, can't type phonetics in HTML) pronunciation, with which I am familiar.

Presumably Bald Eagle's mother cleaved to some regional variant.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Midchuck
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 09:42 PM

The only way you can tell a Canadian accent from a US accent is that Canadians pronounce the name of a very large animal with big antlers that lives in swamps and eats moss and stuff, and the name of a very small animal that lives in your baseboards if your cat doesn't catch it, both the same.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 09:50 PM

Midchuck, are you saying that a person from Boston, a person from Texas, a person from Georgia and a person from Canada would all sound the same except for those two words?


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 01:08 AM

Midchuck, I would have to disagree with you about the mouse and moose bit....the way one can tell a Canadian and an American apart is that the Canadian grunts and points his way through a conversation.....


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 06:44 AM

ruhwards (er), or rewards (e as in engine) - and my Mum came from just a few miles from Batemans. Lost my Sussex accent, so can't do it really Hobdenish. But then Kipling was a nob.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 02:20 PM

The phrase is not Kipling's coinage anyway.

"Farewell rewards and fairies" - Bishop Richard Cooper 1582-1635.


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 02:29 PM

That's Corbet, as I pointed out above.


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 08:45 PM

True...apologies.


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 05:15 AM

And there was me thinking this was some kind of bounty hunt - I'd caught 37 of the little buggers (not including Julian Clary) in me fishin net before I realised....

Manchester pronunciation - ri (as in bRIdge) - wards.

I have been known to Kipple occasionaly but dont ask what my response is if anyone asks if I like Dickens;-)

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Ringer
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 08:48 AM

She (my mum, that is) pronounced the word "normally" (ri-wards, last syllable stressed) except in the context of Kipling's book (when it was roo-ards, first syllable stressed), so I don't think regional accent comes in. For those interested, she was born and lived all her life in the Trent valley, just a few miles East of Nottingham, UK. Thanks for the reference, Bruce O & McGrath. If "Farewell rewards and fairies" was meant by the good Bishop to be sung, I think the stress must be on the last syllable, tho' the pronunciation of the first vowel is open to debate.

Now that I've added a bit about the stress pattern she used, does the first Guest above still think (s)he uses the same pronunciation as my Mum?


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 11:28 AM

McGrath of Harlow. Memory can play nasty tricks. Fortunately this time I checked. About 2 1/2 weeks ago I told someone that "Farewell rewards and fairies" was by John Donne. However, as usuall, she wasn't paying any attention to what I said, so no harm was done.


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: tiggerdooley
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 03:38 PM

I suppose in Liverpool,we say 'ri-ward' (role the 'r'like an Italian, but pronounce the rest like a scouser!)


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: GUEST,Sue
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 04:48 PM

My comment on Peter's msg: " The only way you can tell a Canadian accent from a US accent is that Canadians pronounce the name of a very large animal with big antlers that lives in swamps and eats moss and stuff, and the name of a very small animal that lives in your baseboards if your cat doesn't catch it, both the same." - Peter.

Actually, didn't you know the song? It's supposed to go M I C K E Y M O O S E

Mickey Moose, Mickey Moose. Forever let him hold his antlers high...

The Americans just got it wrong ;) -Sue


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Callie
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 07:59 PM

Yes, but does the recording including a version of "Eddie, Wilfred's Priest"?? Now that would be something!


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 09:12 PM

Did you know that Rudyard Kipling was named after a lake in Staffordshire! Rudyard lake is not far from Leek, and was used as a "feeder" for the Caldon Canal.


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Ringer
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 06:30 AM

And I think, Geoff, that the lake was named after the nearby village of Rudyard. Is there any evidence of a relationship between Kipling & a Staffordshire lake/village?


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 07:14 AM

Is there any evidence of a relationship between Kipling & a Staffordshire lake/village?

I understand there is a relationship. Cannot remember where I saw it documented but Rudyard lake was a favourite picnic place of Mr and Mrs Kipling senior. I will try and find out where I saw it.

Just goes to show though - the Beckhams were not the first!

Cheers

Dave the Gnome
Who knows that Mr Kipling does make something other than exceedingly good cakes


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Ringer
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 03:34 AM

I've just come across a reference: the late John Moore (details here), in his book You English Words (Collins, 1961, p231), says (I include a bit more than is directly concerned with R&F, because it has a bearing on a swearword thread which ran about a year ago) ...the pseudo-scholar ... in order to show off his learning trots out at every opportunity some such statement as this: "Of course, 'bloody' is simply a contraction of 'By Our Lady'" -- which is sheer piffle, and implausible at that. It is the "Of course" that makes me want to wring his neck!

Then there is the Rewards and Faries phantasy. Kipling took his title from a line by Richard Corbet (1582 - 1635), "Farewell rewards and faries!" There is nothing mysterious about it. But the silly argument goes that "rewards" here does not carry its usual and familiar meaning, but is an old name for elves, goblins, pixies or what not. The High Priests of the cult go so far as to pronounce it "Roo-ards", in the hope, I suppose, that one of their listners will rise to the bait and query the pronuciation.

"Roo-ards, old boy. Seventeenth century word for hob-goblins. Didn't you know?"

A pox on such pseudo-pedantry.


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 12:16 PM

roo-ard for reward does rhyme with how we pronounce 'Seward' but I've never heard it that way.

In the U.S. I think the pronunciation of 'reward' varies regionally, just as in 'police', some might say 'POHlice' rather than 'puhLICE'.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: GUEST,Willa
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 03:01 PM

The link between Rudyard and Rudyard?
From 'Rudyard Kipling. The Complete Verse M.M.Kaye'
Lockwood (John Lockwood Kipling, Rudyard's father) and Alice first met on the shores of Lake Rudyard in Staffordshire, (which accounts for the unusual name they later bestowed on their firstborn)


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Subject: RE: Rewards & Fairies
From: Joe_F
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 07:02 PM

The scansion of the poem seems to require stress on the second syllable of "rewards".


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