BS: HMS Bounty the truth

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Abby Sale
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:52 PM

jets: re: Bligh's possible (partial) resposible for the loss of Capt. Cook. I have just a vague memory here from the biography - don't take any bar bets on this but I believe Bligh was on the longboat Cook used to forage on the island. They were forced to leave under heavy attack by the natives but no way derelict or causal. But, as I say, I could have it backwards.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 09:40 AM

Fiolar,

Maybe, but Bligh's promotion may have been to "Yellow" Admiral, an admiral without a fleet assignment and hence his retirement may have been in disgrace. Still, I'm sure he was pleased not to have been shot.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Fiolar
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 06:12 AM

Far from having his career destroyed, the Admiralty must have thought fairly highly of Bligh. He was promoted to Admiral in 1811 on his retirement. A bit different from the fate of Admiral Byng whom they shot for alleged dereliction of duty.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 05:22 AM

Thanks Roll&Go. Two Captain Blighs ! Excuse the confusion.
"bandy" = Bowed legs.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,bigJ
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 04:20 PM

Writing to his wife on the 19th of August in 1789 from Timor in what was then the Dutch East Indies, Bligh said, 'I have now reason to curse the day I ever knew a Christian, a Heywood or any Manxman.'

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 04:12 PM

"as being bandy"?

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,Bobby Bob, Ellan Vannin
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:11 PM

Just thought I'd flag up some connections with the Isle of Man here.

Bligh was married at Kirk Onchan Parish Church in the Isle of Man to Elizabeth Betham, the daughter of a customs officer serving in the Island.

One of the Midshipmen on board the Bounty was Peter Heywood. He was the son of an influential (politics and the law) family in the Isle of Man. He was only young (15ish), and eventually stayed on board the Bounty with the mutineers. He was among the first to approach the Royal Navy to declare himself when they arrived at Tahiti, where he had stayed, rather than going on to Pitcairn. He was a survivor of the wreck of the Pandora, and was court-martialled, not so much for taking part in the mutiny as for not trying hard enough to prevent it. Despite that, he was pardoned (his sister, Nessy, made a very heartfelt and emotional plea on his behalf) and went on to become a Royal Navy Captain.

The family name, Christian, is very much associated with the Isle of Man (again, politics and the law), but they also had land and relatives in Cumberland in England, which is apparently where Fletcher Christian fitted in. I think the description of him was as being bandy and generally not exactly the figure cut in many of the films of the mutiny on the Bounty.

Shoh slaynt,

Bobby Bob

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Wotcha
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 11:43 AM

According to Roger Morris in his fine book "Atlantic Seafaring: Ten Centuries of Exploration and Trade in the North Atlantic," The Bounty was a "collier-cat" originally used to haul coal. Cat boats were smaller than Naval Frigates, the merchant ship the "Pink" and the "Hagboat"(a civilian version of the Frigate). All these designs apparently originated from the Dutch "Fluyt" or fly-boat as the English called them.
The cat was square-rigged, about 134 foot in length and 34 feet in breadth. Apparently Cats were very maneuverable: handy for crowded ports of the time. Captain Cook's vessels -- Endeavour, Resolution and Adventure -- were all Cats.
I'd be interested in learning more about the entymology of the Cat: something to do with its performance?
Cheers,
Armchair Seafarer,
Brian

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 11:19 AM

This is a subject that has always fascinated me, but I know very little about it. I do remember reading that the Bounty's crew, including Christian, had plenty of tattoos!

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:13 AM

Keith, again according to the Oxford Companion Bligh distinguished himself as a captain at the battles of Camperdown (1797) and Copenhagen (1801), and was not present at Trafalga; there was a Captain John Bligh present at that battle in charge of the Valient, 74, according to Every Man Will Do His Duty by Dean King.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:03 AM

I'm sure there are Hell towns all over the world but let's not ignore Hell, Michigan, just a handbasket away from Temperance.

And, Jets, thanks for the extensive notes on the Hornet.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 04:40 AM

I have read that Bligh's log records fewer floggings on the Bounty than was typical of the time. Does that ring true? Did Bligh go on to command a line ship at Trafalgar?

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:06 PM

Jack who?

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,fox4zero
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:53 PM

This is a most serious thread! I can't stand letting it go without sabotage: You have omitted the other Sullivan brothers: Curly, Larry, Schemp and Moe; as well as Manny, Moe and Jack (from the Pep Boys side of the Sullivans), as well as Harpo, Groucho, Chico, Zeppo and Gummo (of the Marx Sullivans), Trade and Mark (Smith-Sullivans), Daffy and Dizzy (Dean-Sullivans)...I could go on forever. Laughs to all...Larry

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:22 PM

Just a couple of comments. With regard to the taxonomy of the ship, CY is correct in that The Bounty was officially classified as an auxillary vessel, and that is how it would appear in official documents, but I think it is probable that there was not the same rigidity in common usage as we would expect today. So far as "Bligh's / "the Bounty's" log is concerned, bear in mind that there were many logs kept, the ships log, the Captains log, and the sailing masters log. Lieutenants were also required to keep logs, and the Admiralty also encouraged officers to keep "Journals", so it is quite possible that various museums around the world have one or other or even an unofficial copy made by the author prior to submission to the Admiralty. As I can't visit the Public Records Office etc. I can't confirm what is held officially, but the extract shown of the document held bt the Library of NSW reads far more like a journal than a log.

Pete M

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: jets
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:02 PM

I always thought of Bligh as being a victim of the class cieling. It must have been extremly frustrating for those ,such as he, that had the inteligence but was limited by his station . Has any one ever heard that he was ,in part , resposible for the loss of Capt. Cook ?

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 07:54 PM

Ask Aine, Hell is in Texas! If Bligh was indeed a "Mustang" as we called rankers who got commisioned in the American Navy, it would go a long way toward explaining the mutiny. Fletcher would have indeed seen Bligh as beneath his station. Nopt good for discipline or ship's morale. It also increases my respect for Bligh especially after bringing the loyal members through such a perilous voyage after the mutiny. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 07:47 PM

Damn it all, I thought Hell was located near Tunis! As a note, irrespective of the ship's designation,(HMS or HMAV) The crew if they were Royal Navy would have been under RN discipline. If Bligh was indeed a "Mustang" officer (One who rose from the ranks)it explains alot about the mutiny and increases my respect for the man. Kindest reguards, NEil

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 06:31 PM

My Oxford Companion does not use either HMS or HMAV for the ship. The book only referes to her as "the Bounty" and calls her an "armed transport".

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 06:15 PM

Abby S., according to the statement on the Library of New South Wales website the Admiralty didn't have the log of the HMS Bounty, Bligh's descendents had it.

The log of the HMS Bounty Click

Much about the mutiny Click

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Troll
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:50 PM

Jets, thanks very much for your post. An incredible voyage indeed.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:44 PM

Well we've got plenty of beggars, it must've been them other two places.**BG**

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Manitas
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:38 PM

I have read some where that the original of 'Hull and Halifax and Hell' was 'Elland, Halifax and Hull' all prosperous towns where a beggar might be in danger of a getting a job. Another version I heard is that in all three beggars where likely to be executed out of hand.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Abby Sale
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:25 PM

I learned some stuff about Bligh from my anthropology prof back in the late 50's. His area was South Pacific islanders so Bligh's observations were important source material. The prof'd been to the Admiralty and managed to get to see the log & records but basically they'd been sealed all these years until very recently. All this info is just coming available in the last couple of decades.

Some stuff:

Bligh was a remarkable man in many was as indicated above. Yes, a captian of his era and an extraordinary sailor. But also an extraordinary & keen observer of the natives. This is why he was picked for this job. He'd sailed with Cook (whom he idolized) and learned under him. But he was a far better sailor than Cook and had vastly greater sympathy for and acuity of observation of the natives. Cook, eg, so misread and angered the Hawaians that they ate him. Bligh, on the other hand, learned several native languages, dealt with them personally and fairly and wrote up his findings in detail.

You can't much blame him in the first mutiny as that was in the general fleet mutiny (at Spithead?) and he was just one of many. Still, the "shame" of three mutinies, blameless or not, did destroy his career and cause the records to be sealed.

As one of those rare officers who had risen through the ranks, Bligh was always the butt of the Gentlemen who did scorn him and left him with the constant need to prove his "just-as-goodness." Possibly, this is the true source of his downfall...

It is said that Bligh's major fault was his poor ability to pick good men to work for him. Christian was basically a playboy (and I can't remember several other bad choices likely adding to the problems in several other parts of Bligh's life.) Bligh may have been more of a toady than a martinet. Clearly Bligh chose Christian partly because Christian was upperish class and Bligh was doing this proving himself thing.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: jets
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:30 PM

Troll The Stamford Historical Society, Inc. The following is an excerpt from the Society's Newsletter, Volume 49, Issue 2. If you want to receive a full copy of the newsletter and future issues, become a member now!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Saga of the Clipper Ship «Hornet» and the Ferguson Brothers of Stamford

In the nineteenth century, there were but a few therapeutic options available to those afflicted with tuberculosis. Twenty-eight year old Samuel Ferguson of Stamford suffered from this illness, so in January 1866, he and his younger brother Henry (a sophomore at Trinity College, Hartford), booked passage on the clipper ship Hornet. Their destination was southern California, where it was hoped that the regions' dry, warm climate would restore Samuel's health. Scheduled to sail from New York, around Cape Horn, the ship was commanded by Captain Josiah A. Mitchell of Maine, an experienced, capable mariner in charge of this vessel's fifth passage to San Francisco prior to the Civil War. Since Samuel and Henry were the only passengers aboard, they would dine with the Captain, who enjoyed discussing a broad range of topics with them. Once they unpacked their belongings, which included a number of books, for both brothers were avid readers, they settled into what seemed to be the beginning of an interesting and enjoyable experience. Henry spent part of his days studying Greek, Math and Latin and observing how the crew handled this fast clipper ship. Samuel read contemporary literature and enjoyed a glass of claret with the Captain during dinner. The brothers entered in their diaries sightings of whales, dolphins, flying fish and other marine creatures as well as detailed meteorological observations.

From left: Captain Josiah A. Mitchell Henry Ferguson Samuel Ferguson

from: «Longboat to Hawaii, An Account of the Voyage of the Clipper Ship HORNET of New York Bound for San Francisco in 1866» by Alexander C. Brown Cornell Maritime Press ISBN: 0870332015

However, disaster occurred on May 3, when sailing in the Pacific Ocean, west of South America. A member of the crew began drawing some varnish from a barrel below deck, using an open flame lamp for illumination. The vapors immediately ignited and quickly spread throughout the wooden vessel. Samuel and Henry together with the Captain and crew gathered as much food and water plus charts, compass, sextants, chronometer, together with scant other items and scrambled into three boats. Once safely away from the burning vessel, they ceased rowing hoping another ship might see the flames and come to their rescue. Unfortunately this did not occur. With only ten days worth of provisions, the survivors spent the next forty-three days on the high sea in an open boat, covering over 4,000 miles. Both brothers and the Captain saved their diaries, which they continued to keep throughout the ordeal.

At first the men were in a longboat and two quarter boats, tied in tandem, each with a small sail. Towards the end of May the Captain decided that the three boats could not continue sailing in this manner. The First Mate offered to cast off his line. So the Captain divided the scant food and water supplies equally, gave them a compass together with other navigational aids and wished them good luck. They came upon each other one more time, parted with the Second Mate's boat, and were never seen again. Now fifteen men began existing on scant reduced rations for the next three terrifying weeks. At regular intervals, Captain Mitchell and Henry would read prayers aloud, noting that most of the men seemed attentive and drew comfort from them. By utilizing the sail and buckets for catching rain, the men were able to gather water, but as their ordeal wore on, they encountered fewer storms. At first they did catch some fish, turtles and birds to augment their meager supplies. However, after several weeks this food source suddenly diminished and then ceased. Hunger and thirst took their toll; some began suffering from delirium, imagining and plotting — on the very edge of madness. On June 5th there were mutterings amongst three or four men against the Captain and passengers. They blamed them for their situation proposing murder and cannibalism. Fortunately, word of this reached Captain Mitchell. He kept a hatchet hidden by his side and hardly slept. The Ferguson brothers remained on alert, sleeping in shifts. Written on the last page of Henry's diary is a note written to Samuel regarding certain men who could be trusted and to watch his pistol and cartridges. Luckily, the need for these weapons never arose.

June 9th they finished their last provisions, a tin of soup divided between all of them, with a minute amount of water. Now in extreme desperation they began eating their boots. Finally, after six more days of tormenting hunger and thirst, they sighted the island of Hawaii. Too weak to navigate their craft between the reefs, they would have perished were it not for two islanders who swam out and helped them make landfall. They had arrived at a missionary settlement, the only inhabited location for miles around. Unable to walk or stand, they were carried up the beach into this small community and received the care so desperately needed. Thanks in part to Divine Providence and Captain Mitchell's exceptional seamanship, the survivors were at last safe.

At the same time, on island of Oahu, there was a young newspaper reporter named Samuel L. Clemens (Mark Twain) who heard an account of a boatload of shipwrecked, starving men. Although physically indisposed with saddle boils from excessive horseback riding, he sensed a story. With the assistance of Anson Burlingame, U. S. Minister to China, Clemens (Twain) arranged to be transported on a stretcher to the island of Hawaii. Accompanied by Burlingame, he interviewed the Hornet's remaining crew and was immediately returned to Honolulu. He stayed up all night preparing his copy and was able to deliver it the following day to a ship that was leaving for San Francisco. The story was a sensation with newspapers throughout America reprinting it. On their return voyage to California, Clemens (Twain) further interviewed the Ferguson brothers and Captain Mitchell. They let him examine their diaries, excerpts of which he incorporated into an article titled "Forty-three Days in an Open Boat. Compiled from Personal Diaries". Submitted to Harper's New Monthly Magazine, they published it in December 1866. Thirty-three years later he reworked portions of it, gave the story a new title, My Debut as a Literary Person and handed it in to The Century Magazine, where the article appeared in November 1889. The story was included in The Man That Corrupted Hadleyburg and Other Stories and Essays, Harper and Brothers, 1900. In this work, Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) stated it was not the Jumping Frog story that launched his literary career, but the saga of the survivors of the clipper ship Hornet.

After a brief Hawaiian recuperation, the Ferguson brothers returned to California. Samuel never recovered from his illness, made worse by his ordeal at sea. He died in October of 1866 and his remains were shipped back to Stamford for burial. Henry returned to his studies at Trinity College, graduated and went on to become a respected member of the clergy and a professor of history and politics at his alma mater. Ultimately, Henry returned to serve as Headmaster of St. Paul's School, in New Hampshire, from which he had matriculated so many years before.

© Stamford Historical Society

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- See also: Mark Twain's correspondence with the Sacramento Daily Union - 1866, Twenty-five letters from the Sandwich Islands (Hawaii) Short and Singular Rations

Other Mark Twain Links Mark Twain at About.com a comprehensive website! The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County, and Other Sketches The Man that Corrupted Hadleyburg

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stamford Historical Society

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:28 PM

C.Y. No, I haven't heard that Dave Macon song you refer to . I'll mail you my address. Aaaaahhhh, Newport RI. That brings back memories. I was stationed at the navy base there back in '65 when I was 17. Our gov't was buying 3 Charles F Adams class destroyers that were being built in Bay City MI. I was in the crew that went over to pick up the first one, HMAS Perth, and we had get some US navy training to learn how to handle these "new fangled ships". After 4 months training the ship wasn't ready to commission due to some strikes at the ship-builders. So there we were, 300 of us with nothing to do. We were farmed out on various projects to keep us occupied, kind of like the Peace Corps. About a 100 of us were packed on to buses, along with 16? man army tents and a field kitchen, and sent up past Chepachet to live in the forest and go out in teams with the Rangers to chop down diseased trees and construct bush-walking trails. One trail ended up about 12km long and was named either after our ship, Perth Trail, or the ship's crest Swan, or Black Swan Trail, can't remember for sure. I think the fuzzy memory was caused by the fact that once the TV news people came up and did a feature on "all these Australian sailors living in the American wilderness" ( we felt like we were part of the Lewis & Clarke expedition )all these young women from CT came up to "discover" us. You really can fit 32 people into a 16-man tent! We were nearly too weak to chop down trees after that. We had to take a 6-pack out in to the forest for lunch to get some energy back into us for the night-time activities. What a month, it nearly killed us.

JG / F.M.E.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:06 PM

Learn to use the internet. The log of the HMS [sic] Bounty is in the State Library of New South Wales, and there's a facsimile of part of it on the web [Hint, use Google]

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 12:53 PM

Hi Cranky!

Thanks for the reference. Probably the Bounty would be described as an 'armed transport', so HMS might not be appropriate. But she was commanded by a naval officer with a naval crew. If not they could not be subjected to naval discipline under the Articles of War (the Navy's rule book at the time). An interesting topic - I'll have to look into it further.

It's true - Hull and Halifax are both in Yorkshire (York is the county town). Hell, if it exists, is probably in Lancashire! (Local joke!)

This is supposed to come from an old vagrants' prayer. Halifax was particularily hard on thieves - they even had an early proto-Guillotine called the Halifax Maiden for chopping heads off. And Hull was a bad place for the press gang, or so they say.

Cheers, Les

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 12:27 PM

Les From Hull.
If you are a "Britt", surely you knopw that HMS is only applied to warships. If you are not aware of this, ask someone who was in the Royal Navy.

"Concerning the loss of HMAV The Bounty, by William Bligh. It was His report to the Admiralty and His Brief at the Board of Enquiry.

Ever hear the song, "The Dalesman's Litany?". First verse ends with , "From Hull and Halifax and Hell, Good Lord deliver me" I understand that all three of the above places are in York,

JOHN GRAY, FROM AUSTRALIA.
Did you ever hear the song "Johnny Gray" as sung by "Uncle Dave Macon"? If you send your adress to me via regular mail, I'll send you a CD with some of Uncle dave's stuff. Just writing the lyrics down doesn't even begin to describe Uncle Dave Macon's rendition.. I'll Write it here, and also send you a CD. My mailing adress is

Rose Island Recording Co.<>br> 36 Charles St.
Newport, Rhode Island 02840.
USA

Hell, I can't understand what he's singing. But, it doesn"t matter. I'll send you the CD.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:46 AM

What a twist! Is it possible the mutiny in part was caused by laudenum addiction? Totally honest people don't always make the best leaders because the suppose everyone else to be as honest as they are and are quite disappointed when they aren't. Are Bligh's Journals from that time in print anywhere? Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:41 AM

IMHO the mutiny on board HMS Bounty was more about shagging than anything else. Bligh had given the crew a bit too much liberty, and the crew had taken even more.

I would like to hear the references for calling the ship HMAV The Bounty, as well. It sounds like someone's opinion rather than a fact.

Incidentally I live half a mile from where the Bounty was built. She was originally Bethia, built as a merchant ship in Blaydes Yard, before she was bought for the breadfruit job.

Les

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:40 AM

Gavin Kennedy has written two or three books and several articles on Bligh and the mutiny. The film with Anthony Hopkins is based on his work. (I can't remeber than names of the books, as usual, but there are plenty of references o the 'net.) The stuff by Nordhoff & Hall is pure fiction -- well, maybe "pure" isn't the right word! Bligh's main problem was that he believed in "I'll play ball with you if you play ball with me". He expected everyone to be as honest and direct as he was, and got his knickers in a twist when people behaved like .. well, people. Fletcher Christian had some kind of inner torment, by his own admission; but we don't know what it was. It's been suggested that he became addicted to laudanum (opium in alcohol), which was not uncommon for people using it for pain relief; think of Tomas de Quincey (and Padeen, if you're a PO'B fan). Apparently, the descendants of Bligh and the descendants of the mutineers are still disposed to come to blows!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:39 AM

I cheated. I looked up 'Sullivan Brothers' on Google.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:32 AM

There was also Capt. Andrew Wing of the whaling bark Canton who in 1982 ran onto an uncharted reef and was forced to run 3800 miles in open boats for 45 days, eventually reaching Guam. Unlike some of the other shipwreck survival tales, Capt. Wing was able to bring his crew home without consuming them: reprinted in YANKEES UNDER SAIL, story by Chester Howland.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:27 AM

I stand corrected, I quoted some one above. The Australia mutiny I was unaware of. Indeed he was an exceptional sailor. I questioned his leadership skills on The Bounty but the truth is his voyage to safety after being cast adrift in what amounted to a death sentance from his erstwhile crew does deserve to be lauded. I wonder what were the conditions that led to the mutiny on HMAV The Bounty? My assessment of Bligh may be coloured by tyhe myth of the Bounty rather than all the facts. I apologise for my erroneous info. As I remember, there were five Sullivan brothers. The names are correct but as I remember, George was the oldest. They were from Iowa and if memory serves me right went down on the U.S.S. Juneau in the waters off of Guadalcanal. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Troll
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:12 AM

Thanx jets. Do you have a date and location on that? Also a book or somethying about it? I'd love to read it.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: jets
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:13 AM

Troll- Blighs voyage was surpassed by Captin Josuha Mitchell of Freeport Maine after the burning of the clipper ship "Hornet" Four thousand miles in 43 days with 10 days rations ,if memory serves

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 08:47 AM

Larry,

I think that you'll find that Bligh's language was nothing out of the ordinary in everyday use, but was not generally used by one officer to another. Christian, a warrant officer on temporary promotion, was being "groomed" by Bligh for his lieutenency but couldn't stand the pressure of the job. By all accounts Bligh was damned good at his job but didn't suffer fools gladly.

Irish Sergeant, you cite three mutinies, but, apart from the Bounty incedent, the second was Spithead, when the entire fleet mutinied (more a fleet wide strike than a conventionasl mutiny, this was concerned with conditions of service and nothing to do with any particular officer and the third mutiny was the Australian one already mentioned. By the bye, the slaves wouldn't eat the breadfruit, but they took to the other Pacific fruit he introduced, the mango.

Regards

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:15 AM

There is a brilliant book on Bly, "Mr. Bly's Bad Language" (I've read about everything on the event, must admit...) It comes, I think closest to a truth (as there must be many these many years after an event with so many points of view of the actors). Well, on The Bounty, there was a break down of the theatre of hierachry, needed to keep order in thouse days, the ship was so small, Bly did not have the distance to keep his position of being phisically as well as athoritatively above his men. Folks shared many of the duties aboard in rough times, and as a result, the crew came to see themselves as equal partners. Bly, was unpredicatably good natured, and as a result, found himself too familier with the men, and then had to reasert athourity among men who no longer saw him as unquestionable. Add to that, his pention of saying dreadful things when angery, things that gentlemen of his day would not say, his men saw him as one of them, and a friend who turned on them when he said unforgivable things.
Interesting book, very well researched. The author built a modle of the bounty, down to the internal set up of the cabins while writing it, to feel close to the subject. As to Bly as a seaman and general human, he was a complex and wonderful man. A true outsider and idealist. He was done real liable by too many.
Cheers,
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 12:41 AM

The 4 Sullivn brothers were Albert, Francis, George, Joseph, and Madison.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Troll
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 12:38 AM

CY I think there were five Sullivans.
The Bounty books by Nordoff and Hall are; Mutiny On The Bounty, Men Against The Sea,and, Pitcairns Island.
All the stories were based on fact and the descendents of the mutineers and their polynesian wives still live on Pitcairn Island.The wreck of The Bounty has been or is being, dived as an archaelogical site.
An interesting note. I read years ago that Nordoff and Hall could not stand to be around each other and wrote all their books by correspondence.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 12:22 AM

HOORAY FOR JOHN GRAY.
See Kendall, I told you so. The truth of it is, the men of HMAV "The Bounty" just didn't want to go home, they'd found paradise. Bligh was a very able and conscientousOfficer who if enything was too concerned with the welfare of his men. When one of them got seriously Ill, Bligh put the sick man in his cabin and slept in the forecastle. His men got exactly the same rations as the Officers did, Which did not endear him top Christian's heart.
Once more, with feeling, THERE NEVER WAS AN HMS BOUNTY. tHE NAME OF THE VESSEL IN QUESTION WAS HIS MAJESTY'S ARMED VESSEL (HMAV) "THE BOUNTY". HMS is very strictly reserved for warships, which "The Bounty" was not. Along with USS,"The Sullivans", named after four brothers who were all killed in action aboard the same ship in the same engagement during WWII. HMAV "The Bounty" is the only other ship I know of that had the word "the" in it's registered name. The name was not "Bounty", but "The Bounty", and the book, Mutiny on the Bounty was a work of fiction written by two Americans. Nordoff and Hall. Charles Nordoff wrot two excellent books without Hall. They described life on an American Man of War and on various merchabt ships.

Johnny Gray, did you ever hear the song "Johnny Gray"? Uncle Dave Macon did it. It's a howl./
Jody Gibson

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 11:53 PM

Irish Sergeant. I've got an open mind on two of Bligh's mutinees but the one that ocurred in Australia was not of his doing. Back then the whole of Australia was know as New South Wales and it was administered by the military because it was a penal colony - there was no civil administration to speak of. The military garrison was the New South Wales Corps and their officers had "acquired" large land holdings. They utilised convict labour and ticket-of-leave men to work these estates. Instead of paying these workers money, the dodgy officers payed them in rum. And guess who controlled the rum import business. Drunkeness was rife, the convicts were committing more offences, and just about all the officers were corrupt. Bligh was hand picked by the British gov't to come and clean the mess up. Unfortunately they didn't send military support with him and he had no hope of overcoming the corrupt officer clique. The officers trumped up some charges and got rid of him - to Tasmania. A year later the British gov't sent Lieut. Colonel Macquarrie to get things back on track. He came with his own regiment / battalion that was loyal to him. The corrupt officers were arrested and sent back to England for trial. Bligh was vindicated. Yeah, British naval officers were tough, they had to be, since 1066 they've been responsible for the front line force that has kept Britain from being invaded. With the exception of a couple, her army officers were nowhere near the same calibre.

JG/F.M.E.

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 11:43 PM

Interesting thought just came to mind. Does anyone know if another Captain had MORE than three mutinees?

Just watched a documentary on opening up the Hunley. Scary! I'd have mutineed before setting sail. Seeing just how small that space was made you claustrophobic just watching.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Troll
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 11:16 PM

Say what you will about Bligh, his feat of sailing thousands of miles in an open boat with the remainder of his crew after the mutiny remains unequalled in the annals of the sea. As I recall, he only lost one man.
In my mind, only Shackletons feat of sailing from Elephant Island to South Georgia approaches it. Shackleton saved his men too.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 09:36 PM

It might have been interesting to hear what Fletcher Christian might have said. As you rightly point out, Bligh was involved in three mutinees one when he was governor of some island in the caribbean I think. As the officer corps of the Royal Navy goes He was neither the best or the worst officer they had and the courts martial held of those mutineers brought back showed that. He was in short a not so untypical naval officer the type of which still exists today in our own navy mainly, a self centred, short sighted egotistical boob in shoulder straps convinced of his own genius who likely brought all three muntinees on his own head but who was able to squeak through (Apologies to LtS). The breadfruit turned out to be a wasted effort. The slaves in the West Indies wouldn't eat it. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: jets
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 09:31 PM

The third mutiny occured because the land owners in New South wales Australia wanted him out and he was set up. He had the nerve to try to cut into there ilicit profits .

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 09:25 PM

I've seen every one of the movies on the subject, and, this one is closest to the truth. Dont forget Guest, a group of the captured mutineers testified before the Admiralty and told their side of it. I did learn something, Bligh was involved in not two mutineys, but three! The bastard never learned!

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 09:20 PM

How do you know? Maybe he popped up here as an anonymous Guest and told the whole thing......you know, like "GUEST, FC" ........wow........could've happened. But who the hell would believe him?

BTW Kendall, not one of HC's better efforts IMO.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: HMS Bounty the truth
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 08:40 PM

Not likely. Fletcher Christian never told his side of it.