BS: Bush--A little credit please?

Subject: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Big Red
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 08:38 PM

Hours have passed since the news. Can any of the Bush haters bend enough to give at least a passing credit for a job well done by Bush and the Administration in getting our soldiers home without a crisis?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Troll
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 08:45 PM

Never happen Big Red. But a nice thought anyway. All the Monday morning quarterbacks are squating in the wings, waiting for the chance to tell us all how it SHOULD have been done or why it was unnecessary or why we should never have been there in the first place.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: jets
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:08 PM

Bush deserves credit for keeping low key and letting those in the know do the talking.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:15 PM

For what? Putting off an apology as long as he could? When he didn't seem to understand why it was necessary? When you're wrong, you're wrong. US was seemingly at fault. What could it possibly have hurt to "apologize" days ago? Would have gotten out boys home a hell of a lot sooner if he was big enough to do what needed to be done......

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: jets
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:20 PM

O Boy here we go again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:35 PM

It's not that, Scorch. The reason was that no one put an apology in front of him to read.....he is just plain lost with out the proper guidance he requires...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Paul G.
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:42 PM

I have a theory...the whole thing was a deception intended to distract us while most of the money for environmental protection activities was stripped out of the budget. Watch out for the next major international crisis...the day before it's miraculously resolved the drilling will start in Alaska...

Paul (in Florida imagining the Everglades drained and paved)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:57 PM

OK, I'll give him and his administration credit- for being consistent.

Tonight's paper:

The Bush administration is asking Congress to remove from the Endangered Species Act a provision that allows environmental groups and others to sue the Interior Department to get rare plants and animals listed as endangered.

The budget provision would still permit citizen lawsuits but effectively render them meaningless by placing severe limits on what the agency can do or spend to comply with them, according to Interior spokesman, Mark Pfeifle.

...The Interior Secretary would decide what gets spent on lawsuits and have power over the listing of species.

"This leaves the discretion with ...a Secretary of the Interior who, I point out, through a long career has taken every opportunity to debunk the Endangered Species Act (and) speak against it and at one point even suggest that it was unconstitutional." (Defenders of Wildlife President Rodger)Schlickeisen said...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:15 PM

Amergin, in a sense, that is exactly what I meant. The man is only a mouthpiece, and does only what his Advisors consensus tells him to do.

Do you suppose he can even read a TelePrompter? I guess, what I meant was, why did his Honorable Advisors not tell him days ago to just apologize, get it over with, bite the bullet, and get our boys home? To hell with the damn plane!

What's an Apology? Sincere or otherwise, it's just words. Governments use words to suit themselves all the time, as in the words that China says are an apology and Bush says are not.......but our boys are coming home, finally. Days after they should have because of the obtuseness/stupidity of the US Gov.....

If you really want a lesson in obtuseness, read some of Elizbeth I speeches and commentaries. She was a Master of the Art........(that is Liz Tudor, not Liz Windsor). I call her Master because her contemporaries called her the She King..........

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Bert
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:29 PM

OK, he gets credit for doing 'something'. Whether it was well done, or the right thing or whether the timing was right or should the spy plane have been there in the first place, or whether they should have had some means of destroying it on the ground or, or, or. He did something.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:35 PM

Too late, and too little, because at this point, he had not choice......what else could he/they do? Allow them to be executed? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Uncle Jaque
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:40 PM

Soooo, Sorcha:

Just whose propaganda have we been copiously sucking up here, Komrade? Dan Ratherski, Brian GumBall, Opra....

"When you're wrong, you're wrong. US was seemingly at fault."

That's pretty much the Party line all right; the Chairman is no doubt proud of you.

Have you ever seen one of those P-3 ORION recconisance planes (NOT a "Spy" plane when it is operating in international airspace, by the way)? We have a Naval base nearby in Brunswick, Maine and the old turboprop birds can be frequently seen lumbering sedately along. To claim that a US pilot could even intentionally "swerve" into a fighter fet faster than even a Pilot-Trainee in an obsolete interceptor could take evasive action is as absurd as the proposition that said EP-3 Pilot would be INSANE enough to even attempt to ram another aircraft in flight!

One of the Taiwan Newspapers claimed shortly after the incedent that they monitor radio transmissions between US bases and aircraft, and that after the accident the damaged EP-3 attempted to return to it's base (they can fly one of those things on one engine, and they had at least two apparantly still running). They were instructed by the surviving Chicom F-8 to proceed instead to Hianan Island, and a burst of machine-gun rounds sufficed to convince the US Captain that he meant business. They essentially "invaded Chinese airspace" at gunpoint as PRISONERS OF WAR! This report was of course quickly squelched, but I think after the hostages are safely on US soil the truth will come out.

Do you ever READ anything other than what your handlers spoon feed you, or do you just watch TV? Just wondering.

You might be interested to know that much more credit for the ChiCom capitulation (they settled for much less than they originally demanded) than the Politicians, Diplomats, or Military is being given to a quickly spreading general BOYCOTT of Chinese goods by American Consumers fed up with China's arrogance and aggression in holding our US Servicepeople hostage. It seems that Wally-Mart and other high rollers in the international economics game started taking it in the shorts and called off thier Komrades behind the Great Wall before it really got out of hand.

I'm proud to have been not only a participant in this imprompteau"Citizen's Initiative", but one of the local instigators as well.

You're welcome!

For God and Country: "Uncle Jaque"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:53 PM

Gee, and the "Nationalist" Chinese press on Taiwan would have no reason to lie, right? Please. And Ol' Mr. Walton as a Chinese Communist sympathizer & 'fellow traveller'? Whooo, boy. Grip on reality here is tenuous at best.

This never was a "chrisis". "Our Boys (and "Girls") were never in any real danger, and I'm tired of the whining when military personnel are called on do do what can always turn out be part of their duty; these incidents are commonplace enough, and there is a scripted diplomatic game that is ALWAYS played.

This is the usual tempest in a pisspot stirred up by the media at the behest of the "Old China Hands" that still can't come to terms with the fact that we "Lost" China- like it was "ours" to lose in the first place.{can you spell "Hubris"?}

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: JedMarum
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 11:33 PM

Yes Bush and his admin has done well, so far. I am concerned about how much security info is lost, and the status of the aircraft and its equip.

No apology was given, nor would one have been appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 11:35 PM

Thanks, Greg. And, Oncle Jacques, if I am wrong, all it takes is a few words to say "I'm sorry".......why couldn't my elected government do the same? Not "big" enough? What does "sorry" ever hurt, or really mean, especially politically?

Political Apoligies mean NOTHING.......ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 11:43 PM

I love ya, Sorcha, but IMHO you are wrong on this one. And Uncle Jacque, you are guilty of that which you accuse Sorcha of. Yours is simply the other side of the propaganda coin. The simple fact is that we had nothing to apologize for and we didn't. We did use diplomatic language to accomplish the release. The Chinese have long played "chicken" and a pilot payed for it with his life. Both sides agree that this happened in International airspace. We had nothing to apologize for.

As far as giving Dubya credit, I will give him this much. He had enough sense to realize that he was in over his head, and got out of the way and let the diplomats take over. I have the feeling that his solo walk down the drive for his first statement was orchestrated by the hawkish, reactionary elements of his cabinet. It took them about 24 hours to realize how foolish this was. Thank God that Colin Powell and others were able to prevail and get to the business of getting our service people released. So I will credit him for backing off his machoman crap and letting those with a little depth take care of business.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 11:58 PM

Paul G...I hear ya...that's exactly part of what he's doing and it is going to be a huge loss if he gets away with it. I'd rather we have a huge battle over it and save the environment than not. Perhaps we can tie up Congress with THAT issue for four years as they did Clinton with the asinine and obfuscatory Starr Inquisition, at least it would be for something worthwhile!

No brownie points from me...not when he's trying to decimate our "home" behind our backs.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: toadfrog
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:01 AM

Yes. Let us give Bush "credit" for not doing something really dumb and getting us into a war. Some of the people in his administration just might have done exactly that. But that appears to be his greatest (positive) achievement to date, and I'm not impressed.

Sure. It would not have been a good idea to "apologize" for flying airplanes over the South China Sea, because that would mean we had no right to do that. But where on God's earth did Our President get that bit about the airplane being our "sovereign territory"? Boy, that was dumb!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:18 AM

I love you too, Mick, and yes, it happened in Itl Airspace, but what would it have cost us to "apologise" in diplomatic language to get our boys home sooner?

We ended up using "diplomatic language" in the end to get them home (to hell with the plane!) so what would it have hurt to use it a little sooner?

China is not the only or first to ever declare a more than usual border limit.....(3 miles)so why make such big moolah over this one?

I too, have tremendous respect for Colin Powell (and respect him even more for refusing to run for Pres), but what exactly is going on here?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:27 AM

Sorcha, I thought China was claiming a 300 mile territorial limit. This is what a friend told me whose company is laying sub-ocean cable in the Pacific Rim. They had to go thousands of miles out of their way to avoid the claimed waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:50 AM

LEJ, I had forgotten the exact limit China was claiming, only that it was more than the usual 3 mile limit.......300 miles would give the US posession of slightly more than Cuba, no? (grin, but not a joke)and a whole lot of Canada, too. We could try this on, and see what the Quebecquois say about being annexed........

300 miles from the 49th Parallel puts US just where? Close to Hudson's Bay? Aww, crap. We still don't get Great Slave Lake, or the Norhwest Territories.....

Munroe, where are you when we need you? (sarcasm, with tongue deeply embedded in cheek)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Troll
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:50 AM

The international agreed-upon limit is 12 miles. China claims 200 miles.An apology for being where we had every right to be would be seen as tacit agreement to the 200 mile claim. Regardless of the circumstances and any future repudiation of the apology it would set a precident that could cause lots of problems later.
As far as "sovereign territory" goes, I believe that there is an international agreement that any plane in distress can land anywhere it needs to and that it shall be treated as sovereign territory and all assistance to get it home safely shall be rendered. I'll try to find the reference but it has been 10 days.
China's premier has had to deal with his countrymen and the hawkish Peoples Liberation Army. In order to maintain his power base, he had to do a lot of careful juggling and diplomatic face-saving. These things take time. You will note that there were no massive demonstrations like there were when the Embassy was bombed. No one wanted a crisis. Bush managed to curb his natural impatience and the deal finally went through.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Big Red
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 01:14 AM

It sounds so easy. Just apologize. It means nothing. Read your history folks. Chamberlin gave in to Hitler. The U.S. ignored Japan's invasion of China, Truman's Sec. of War said South Korea was outside our defense zone. We know the results. When the USSR threatned us with missles in Cuba, Kennedy showed the only thing despot's understand--strength. We can and did show our power and our restraint.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Amergin
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 01:15 AM

Well, I keep waiting for the incident to occur that will bring millions of Chinese soldiers marching our streets and dragging families from their homes to line ditches with their bloodstained bodies.....or rather the 10000+ degree heatwave....

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:03 AM

Uncle Jerque, would it be TOO hard to just be polite? Why all the derision and spite spewed out over Sorcha? Are you so insecure in your beliefs that you have to squirt venom over anybody who dares disagree with you? Jeez. All the conservatives must be reading people like you and thinking, "Please stop being on my side!"

Turning to the Incident:

1. It is not a "spy plane" and it drives me nuts when the press has been calling it such. If they can't tell the difference between spying and surveillance, they should get jobs at the local Cinemaplex or something.

2. The final non-apologetic apology that secured the release of our boys and girl was a masterful piece of diplomatic baloney. Three cheers to whoever in the Bush administration thought it up.

3. I'm not sure it could have been done TOO much earlier. The whole thing needed to cool off a bit, and the Chinese needed to calm down enough to see exactly what they stood to lose (hint: where does the lion's share of dollars fleeing the USA go? hint2: it isn't Europe) before they could accept the non-apologetic apology without feeling they were losing face.

4. What all this has to do with Bush, however, is beyond me. None of this has his handwriting. Sure, he put in place a competent State Department. But how much of that was Daddy's doing? The world will never know. Just being who he is, Bush Lite will never really get credit for stuff he deserves credit for. You may say it's not fair; I say he made his bed and must lie in it.

5. Was the tail wagging the dog? Well, it's true Bush has been doing the best he can, in the short time he's had, to put the thumbscrews on the environmentalists. He really didn't need a crisis like this to do it, though. Who is standing up to him at home? The democrats are rolling over and playing lame. If we have any wild space left in this country in 4 years, it certainly won't be because Bush hasn't tried to (allow his Corporate sponsors to) rape, pave, or drill it.

There's my 2 bits' worth. Flame away.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: RichM
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:15 AM

Seems to me Bush had his own domestic pressures, as did the Chinese.
Except in Bush's case, the American public seemingly will not stand for soldiers to be killed or imprisoned in the line of duty.

And the Chinese knew this.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:23 AM

the American public seemingly will not stand for soldiers to be killed or imprisoned in the line of duty.

Certainly not during peacetime, and by a "most favored nation" trading partner.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 07:03 AM

What would it cost to apologize? consider this, saving face is of the utmost importance to asians. Thats why Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.We have never understood that mind set, and, we have paid dearly for our ignorance. How would we feel if a Chinese "surveillance" plane was operating within our declared limit? and had been doing so in spite of frequent protests by our government. Credit to Bush? remember Howdy Doody? his movements were visible to us, but, we all knew he was being manipulated by a puppeteer off camera.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Wotcha
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 11:20 AM

The South China Sea is a huge flash spot. The Spratly Islands stand over oil reserves -- Vietnam, China, Indonesia and the Phillipines all want a piece of the action: some of these nations station soldiers on stilt buildings to claim sovereignty. It'll take some hothead (like an ill-disciplined F8 pilot) to spark that powder keg.
The US is pretty aggressive about its Freedom of Navigation program around the world: surveillance is likely to be one of the methods it uses to monitor the sea lanes. Sometimes planes and ships bump (remember the Black Sea incident with the Soviets?).
There are a lot of bullies out there who would like to shut out the free movement of civilian vessels (the robber barons of Germany spring to mind as a group of trade thugs who got their just deserts eventually: hence the burning of the Rhine festival every year). Using military vessels to secure these sea lanes/airspace, the US ensures the rest of the world can trade (rah, rah, rah!).
Our service men and women are back: rejoice. They are not soldiers, but they are airmen, marines, and sailors who did their duty. For once, our government did its duty and got them back with minimum of fuss and grandstanding by the politicos.
Meanwhile, I'll celebrate my freedom these service members bought me by going down the pub and singing some chanteys tonight.
Hooah! Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 11:22 AM

Kendall, I don't understand. What did we do to Japan that made them bomb Pearl Harbor?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: UB Ed
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 11:38 AM

I understand this was the first draft of the apology:

The United States of America apologizes to the People's Republic of China for allowing our slow, lumbering reconnaissance plane to be hit by your poorly trained, hot-dogging fighter pilot, while flying in international airspace.

We're sorry we have to fly surveillance missions to monitor a country that has nuclear missiles pointed at us.

We're sorry your pilot didn't follow international standards of fighter intercept protocol.

We're sorry his aircraft recognition skills were so poor he didn't realize the EP-3 aircraft was propeller driven and flew his aircraft through its propeller arc, destroying his aircraft and nearly killing 24 American crewmen.

We're sorry your fighter pilot's survival training and equipment was so inadequate that he couldn't survive until your poorly trained and equipped navy could find him (they turned down our offer for search and rescue assistance).

We're sorry you violated international law and arrested the crewmen of an aircraft that legally diverted into your airfield under emergency conditions caused by your pilot's actions, after being led there by one of your other pilots.

We're sorry you violated international law and boarded a state aircraft.

We're sorry the world is now seeing you for the enemy of freedom, truth, and democracy that you really are.

We're sorry you see yourself as a superpower when in reality you are a third world nation (the average Chinese worker earns less than $.10 a day).

We're sorry you are loosing so much face over this.

We're sorry that you were able to steal some missile and nuclear secrets from us.

We're sorry you haven't learned from the Soviet Union's collapse and failed to embrace democracy and capitalism (compare tiny Taiwan and mainland China; same people, same culture, but Taiwan's capitalistic economy is a powerhouse and China's economy is still mired in communism).

We're sorry for the future Chinese military deaths that will occur when we retaliate for your roughish behavior.

And most of all, we're sorry for the Chinese people who suffer its leaders' incompetence.

Sincerely,

Dubya

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:11 PM

Alex...there was a long list of provocations. The US insisted that Japan pull out of SE Asia. Japan has no natural resouces of its own, and, without oil and rubber it would remain a backwater nation in this time period. FDR cut off all shipments of scrap metal to Japan. When none of these things worked, FDR froze all Japanese assets in America. That was what tore the rag off the bush. The leaders knew from the start that they could not win a war with the US, but, saving face was the important thing. As the Irish say "I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees." Does anyone believe that the Japanese woke up one day with nothing to do, so they started a war to relieve the boredom? The other side of the story is not taught in our schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:18 PM

UB Ed, great apology! Gave me a chuckle, anyway.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 01:16 PM

Kendall, you're right, and I'm glad that someone out there actually seems to know that. However, the Japanese had more pragmatic ideas than just saving face; they actually hoped for a negotiated settlement that would leave them as the predominant Asian power (in "the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, as they called it), finally rid of the shackles of American and European imperialism.

If the Japanese had not been so brutal in trying to achieve their aims (especially in China and southeast Asia), there might be more people today who recognized the legitimacy of a lot of what they were seeking. Unfortunately, even though some of their goals were praiseworthy, they were unspeakably brutal, and had to be stopped.

Back to the original topic, I am not a Bush supporter, but it appears to me that his administration probably handled this appropriately. Finding a way to make the language in formal communications work for both sides is what diplomats do; it took a bit of doing in this case, but they accomplished it. As for the amount of time that went by while our people were held hostage (I know people have been avoiding that word, but that's what it is), and speaking as an ex-military man myself, I don't think any real harm was done.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:53 PM

Kendall, as I recall, we got a significant amount of the scrap metal the U. S. had sold to Japan prior to the freeze, back on December 7, 1941.

Kendall Morse a apologist for what the Japanese did on that day that will live in infamy? Unbelievable. :>)

Alex that was an excellent summation of the situation, I think. DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:55 PM

Bush rules, especially "Machinehead".

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Troll
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 05:36 PM

The Japanese bombed our fleet in Pearl Harbor so that the US would have no way to stop them from taking over the rest of the Pacific Rim.
They had already taken Manchuria (renamed Manchukuo) and China. They destroyed had the British military power in the Pacific. The only obstacle left was the US Fleet.
They made two major miscalculations; one, the carriers were not in the harbor and, two, the ability of the US to respond industrially was grossly underestimated.
So, Kendall and Whistlestop, if a country doesn't get it's way and doesn't have many natural resources and no one will sell them what they want, then military adventurism and invasion of other countries is acceptable.
What a NOVEL idea!

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,SeanM
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 05:50 PM

Actually, Troll, as far as the Japanese were apparently concerned, the attack was a success. Aircraft carriers weren't widely accepted as premier attack forces as they are today, and at the beginning of hostilities were 'support' carriers for the big guns on battleships and the like - which they very definitely DID get.

Spot on about the response though. From my readings it really sounds like the Japanese command vastly underestimated both the response of the American people, and the ability (and will) of the Navy to salvage as much as they did from Pearl Harbor.

As to giving Bush "credit" though... I'll give him credit for this the moment that Clinton gets full credit for keeping the economy aloft during his administration. I'd say both have as little to do with who sits in the Comfy Chair as does the rainfall in Brazil with how many beans I ate last night.

His continuous attack on environmental issues should prove interesting. After decades of exclusion, the corporations are finally getting their chance to see if unbridled development and exploitation will or will not cause massive harm to the environment...

M

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:00 PM

If you are ever in a car accident when some other driver hits your car, do YOU apologize to him? "Gee, I'm sorry I was driving straight as an arrow and you ran into me..." I don't THINK so!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,SeanMagain
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:08 PM

Another element... has anyone considered that there might be *GASP* SHARED blame in this matter?

Is it just possible that the Chinese pilot was hotdogging as he apparently enjoyed doing, that the American pilot either intentionally or not dipped a bit to rattle him, and from there the accident occured?

Or that the vagaries of windcurrent forced two close flying aircraft together?

Maybe there is a real answer as to "who was on first" in this case, but right now the rattling of sabers is STILL obscuring any hope at the truth.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:14 PM

I think your right in that it probably WAS a shared blame. I think Bush was right in showing concern for the lost of life but that there was no reason to apologize for the accident. I also think it was China's right to examine the fallen plane and keep it!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,SeanM
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:20 PM

Amen to that... one (and ONLY one) newscaster that I've seen locally has been reminding folks that in a similar situation, when we had a downed Soviet plane we returned it to them - in crates.

As it is, the crew managed to transmit that they'd supposedly destroyed all classified materials on board before landing. Given that they had some time and that CM destruction is a BIG topic in the military, I'd believe that they got most if not all of it. All China has is rubble and a bigass prop plane. And if China needs help and 'American Know How' in the prop plane industry, then things are a lot worse off for them than anyone has guessed...

M

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:23 PM

Considering all the Conservative sturm und drang about the perfidious Chinese, is it any less fanciful to suggest that this whole incident, including the collision, was staged and scripted by Dumbya's handlers to insure passage of the huge and unnecessary boondoggle sale of arms & technology to Taiwan? Cui bono? the U.S. arms manufacturers. Maybe not so far fetched, after all; certainly less so than some of the charges made against the Clintons.

Just something to think about....

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:30 PM

Geez, thanks for stirring the waters, Greg!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:38 PM

(and ONLY one) newscaster that I've seen locally has been reminding folks that in a similar situation, when we had a downed Soviet plane we returned it to them - in crates.

Apples and oranges. This one is the result of an emergency downing, and the Soviet plane was a defection. If the 24 air crew defected to Red China, it would be a completely different thing. The Soviet pilot stole his plane, and presented it to us. We might have been required to return it as stolen goods, but we chose not to; that point is fuzzy. As it is, however, in the current case, vessels in distress are not even BOARDABLE, let alone confiscatable, under international law.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:42 PM

Please! If the situation had been reversed and a plane loaded with state-of-the-art technology ended up on American soil do you honestly believe the U.S. government wouldn't take a look-see inside?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:45 PM

I didn't realize that was the question. I thought the question was whether or not the US had the high moral ground in demanding the Chinese leave the plane alone and give it back, based on international law. Clearly they do.

If the shoe were on the other foot, I doubt the US would act any more nobly. But that's not the question.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:50 PM

You're right, of course. Unfortunately it appears that the US and China disagree on "international law" at least in terms of territorial limits... Anyway, enough said on the subject. Thank God we have our service men and women back home.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:54 PM

Amen to that!

Yes for some reason China thinks it should get 200 miles while every other civilized country claims 12. Which is of course what is behind the whole incident.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Peace and Prosperity
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 07:19 PM

Agrees with the general consensus here and is very glad we did not end up at war with China!

Have some serious doubts about accounts of the actual incident as there is so much speculation, however it is a fact that the P3 was on auto pilot, that the F8 made a HOTSHOOT pass beneath a Wing and that there was an accident.

If all it took to get the P3 crew home was the words 'we are sorry' then that should have been the very first thing that was done! So I give no credit to the W H for it's late action, rather want to know why it took so long?

I read with some relish that there is a Chinese Retaurant owner who begun his immigrant life in the USA in Arkansas and who became the butt end of many false accusations by Rush Bumraw and Co respectively, and this man could have saved our butts with just a few carefully selected meetings which would have resulted in a quiet resolution of the incident, no apologies needed since every one involved knew and agreed on the facts. But no the Republcian Ditto Heads who do not think for themselves could not do this without the required guidance of the Old Bores of Washington, Lott et al.

What are they now? Discredited and shown for what they really are a bunch of racist right wing loonies.

I think of Margaret Thatcher with some pain and rarely agree with her claims and ideas but I do agree with one thing she recently said. 'China is a problem'

Again one word is all it takes and here it is. Tibet. This nation was annexed and invaded with little or no press reporting, perhaps the lack of juicy natural resources had a great deal to do with the silence, but what really scares the bejeebers out of me is that Corporate America is the source of this kind of selective 'Rights Wars'. See Desert Storm for clarification!

In a way it is almost certain that sooner or later the USA may have to restrain these kinds of annexations and I am willing to bet the Spratleys would be the flash point, however if China continues to open up it may never happen as prosperity will fill China with all that they need and a fat cat is always a happy one.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 07:40 PM

Doug, I went back and re read my post, but, I fail to see how you concluded that I was apologizing for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.They had their reasons, thats all I said.I did not say they were justified according to OUR way of thinking. I dont recall that they, or anyone else complained when we declared war on Spain so we could grab its bases around the world.We had our time of imperialism too.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 07:48 PM

Guest P&P, I do not believe that the aforesaid Chinese former restaurant owner from Arkansas was exonorated as you suggest. Seems to me he struck a plea bargain, and sang his little heart out. Or do I have him mixed up with another of Clinton's cronies? If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will inform me. I think his name was Charlie Tree or something like that.

Bush is damned whatever he does by the Sharks on the Mudcat. Even if he did something extradordinarily outstanding, they would never give him credit for it. I'm sure it worries him mightly.

Whatever, the troops are back on U. S. soil and the sky did not fall on us.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 08:05 PM

Well, as I see it the colision was an accident. I refuse to speculate on who might have been at fault but I can guarantee a pilot does not ram another plane in mid air on purpose!

I grant the Shrub enough credit to recognize that Colin Powell and the permanent civil servants that make up the State department pulled his butt out of the fire.

I grant the Shrub's handlers enough credit that they managed to stay out of the way while the career diplomats got the job done. And they managed to keep the Resident of the White House from stuumbling all over himself.

And any credit I grant him is revoked in the light of his budget and the reduction of funding for some of the most important programs we have going, such as the alternative energy research, and the foolish attack on the education system.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: MAV
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 08:55 PM

Uncle Jerque, would it be TOO hard to just be polite?

There you go again, NAMECALLING and lecturing others on.... "Politeness"?

All the conservatives must be reading people like you and thinking, "Please stop being on my side!"

Yeah, he said almost the same exact thing to me.

1. It is not a "spy plane" and it drives me nuts when the press has been calling it such. If they can't tell the difference between spying and surveillance, they should get jobs at the local Cinemaplex or something.

What?

2. The final non-apologetic apology that secured the release of our boys and girl was a masterful piece of diplomatic baloney. Three cheers to whoever in the Bush administration thought it up.

HUH?

3. I'm not sure it could have been done TOO much earlier. The whole thing needed to cool off a bit, and the Chinese needed to calm down enough to see exactly what they stood to lose (hint: where does the lion's share of dollars fleeing the USA go? hint2: it isn't Europe) before they could accept the non-apologetic apology without feeling they were losing face.

Unbelievable.

4. What all this has to do with Bush, however, is beyond me. None of this has his handwriting. Sure, he put in place a competent State Department. But how much of that was Daddy's doing? The world will never know. Just being who he is, Bush Lite will never really get credit for stuff he deserves credit for. You may say it's not fair; I say he made his bed and must lie in it.

Of course he will, it happened under his watch. He put in place a competent everything.

5. Was the tail wagging the dog? Well, it's true Bush has been doing the best he can, in the short time he's had, to put the thumbscrews on the environmentalists. He really didn't need a crisis like this to do it, though. Who is standing up to him at home? The democrats are rolling over and playing lame.

You don't suppose he "very sorried" the democRATs too, do you?

If we have any wild space left in this country in 4 years, it certainly won't be because Bush hasn't tried to (allow his Corporate sponsors to) rape, pave, or drill it.

Looks like most of the raping and drilling in the last eight years has been in the White House. I think if you check, most of the paving can be found in the BLUE AREAS of the 2000 election map!!!

There's my 2 bits' worth. Flame away.

What are you doing agreeing with us? Trying to "Spaw" us? Maybe you should re-think this one.

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Troll
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:18 PM

Greg, the idea that the whole thing was staged to give Bush some kind of undefinable advantage is a little far out, even for a confirmed Clintonista like you.
I do not believe that the pilot exists who could engineer a mid-air collision with such precision that his own plane was not too badly damaged to make a safe landing. While it's fun (I guess) to speculate on such things, actually POSTING them is another matter.
But, a good laugh is always in order, so thanks for that at least. Sean So Clinton kept the economy aloft during his administration? But the Liberals claim that he was unable to get many of his programs passed because of a Republican dominated Congress.
Amazing that he could do the one but not the other.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:31 PM

Troll, I didn't say I BELIEVED it, only that it was no more far-fetched than some of the right-wing garbage that's actually been bandied about.  :-)  I'm actually no fan of Clinton's or of the "New Democrats" a.k.a. moderate Republicans.

As far as the benefit being "undefinable", have you missed the reports that since the "incident" congressmen are falling over one another in the rush to support the sale to Taiwan?- seems pretty concrete ta me.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:35 PM

Why not play the game here differently? I know this is impossible and the rationalizations will fly fast and furiously, but, uh.................

Suppose........just for laughs you understand,......that this incident took place last year and had been handled in the same way by the Clinton administration. Would we be hearing the same things from both parties that we are now? Would Trent Lott give Willie a call and say, "Nice job" or would he be calling for hearings?

Just curious........................................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:46 PM

Spaw - I think you would have heard the same thing, had the Clinton admin handled the matter in the same way. Both Dems and Repubs have been pretty positive about the results. There is bitching going on, only at the extremes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Troll
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:46 PM

Greg, I believe it's called a colatteral benefit. I would be greatly surprised if Bush and Co. did NOT take advantage of it.
When fortune drops a windfall in your lap,you are a fool if you don't take advantage of it.
Thats a good rule for politicians, businessmen and anyone else whose eyes dialate.
As far as whether Clinton and crew were guilty of all that they were accused of,I don't want to go there. That horse has been flogged to death.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:25 PM

True, you won't find a politician- or at least a moderatly successful one- of any political stripe who isn't an opportunist.

I don't think that horse is quite dead yet, but OK, let's not go there.;-)
Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:43 PM

This just in! Our diligent reporters have uncovered a secret document from the Republican Party headquarters. It provides details showing that the whole Chinese-Spy plane collision incident is linked to the Clinton administration. The pilot was hired by the same Asian organization that provided funds to the 1996 Democratic campaign.

The note with the document shows that the Republican Party does not intend to release it because of the outcome of the incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Its a telegram, from Canada!
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 11:00 PM

Man oh man,you silly silly amercans. Why, if you could tell me again, didn't you chose Gore? he was too much of a Smartiepants? Oh well, at least 47% of your country knows what its doing!

You'll rue this day! Love, Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:11 AM

Naemanson: I have an idea! Why don't YOU share the "secret document" with us? I'd really like to read it. I'm fairly confident that if such a document existed, Tom Brokow, Dan Rather, Peter Jennings et al,would all agree to keep it secret, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 02:14 AM

What are you doing agreeing with us? Trying to "Spaw" us? Maybe you should re-think this one.

Truth of the matter, MAV, is that you really don't know what I believe. I tried to tell you this once but you rudely told me I was wrong.

I believe what I believe on a number of issues. On some things I am considered by those left-of-center to be a flaming Fascist. On others I am considered by those right-of-center to be a marxist, or worse. In fact I don't believe in the platform of any party in this country, nor am I a member of any party. I don't march to any party line.

Your use of the term "us" here makes me think you do.

There you go again, NAMECALLING and lecturing others on.... "Politeness"?

We can both play the "imagine YOU telling someone they're being rude!" game until the cows came home. Fact is you have alienated a huge number of people on this list by your brusque manner and rudeness. I have not. In the few cases where I really got under somebody's collar, I have done what I could to find out where I goofed up, and apologized.

On the other hand I have given up ever expecting you to apologize for the things you have done which I found unspeakably rude and offensive, even though I have pointed them out and asked for an apology.

You continue to be rude to me at every turn, even in threads where you are talking about treating me with respect and expecting the same in return and all that rot. Apparently a leopard CAN'T change its spots. Don't expect me to hold my heart in my hands waiting for you to be nice. I wipe my feet.

It is not a "spy plane" and it drives me nuts when the press has been calling it such. If they can't tell the difference between spying and surveillance, they should get jobs at the local Cinemaplex or something.

What?

Which word here is bothering you? I could define them all for you, but that's a horrible waste of time for me, and quite dull. I suggest you go to an online dictionary like www.m-w.com and look them up yourself.

. The final non-apologetic apology that secured the release of our boys and girl was a masterful piece of diplomatic baloney. Three cheers to whoever in the Bush administration thought it up.

HUH?

These words are even smaller. Where did you go to school?

Oh, by the way, I stand corrected; I had somewhere picked up the idea it was 23 men and 1 woman, whereas it was 21 men and 3 women. Thus the above should read "boys and girls".

If we have any wild space left in this country in 4 years, it certainly won't be because Bush hasn't tried to (allow his Corporate sponsors to) rape, pave, or drill it.

Looks like most of the raping and drilling in the last eight years has been in the White House.

Again your usual (boring) tactic of not answering the issue, but dragging in something totally unrelated.

Apparently my going through your posts point-by-point impresses you (you said I was getting less offensive and more argumentative); but it's all the same old shinola so it hardly seems worth the time to go through it point-by-point. Still, if that's what it takes, I'll do my part.

You arch-conservatives are too funny. You want to lump everybody to your left into a huge cesspool, and complain if we don't give your side any credit, while all the while not giving our side any credit at all, and saying asinine things like "anything the democrats do must be wrong." So much so that when we (the people to your left) agree with you on ANYTHING it takes your vocabulary away. We're obviously not as narrow-minded as you are, and it nearly blows you away to discover it.

Bonus question: How many Democrats broke ranks in the last vote in the Senate? How many Republicans? Answer: far more D's than R's. Who's following the party line? Who has marching orders? Bush's getting anything passed in a 50-50 Senate is proof positive that the Democrats are less party-conscious than the Republicans. Spin that.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 02:20 AM

The EP-3A is most definitely a spy plane. The very reason it was there was to spy on the Chinese Navy, etc. (not to mention why we were so bent out of shape when they decided to examine our little piece of spying equipment).

My sentiments here are that the Chinese really shouldn't be so upset that we were over there skirting their borders to get some military intelligence (if you'll pardon the oxymoron). After all, if we don't do this type of intelligence gathering, how can they expect us to be be able to bomb the right embassy next time?

Cheers,

-- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: texastoolman
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 02:26 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 02:36 AM

Sorry, I must disagree, Arne. The U2 is a spy plane. The EP-3A is a surveillance plane. Sending one on a true spy mission would be suicide.

Hint: "overt" and "covert" -- what a difference a "c" makes!

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Troll
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 08:06 AM

Thanks Alex. You beat me to it.
But spy plane sounds so much better in a sound-bite on the six o'lock news than survalence aircrafe so spy plane it is in the media.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Naemanson
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 08:21 AM

Maybe we need to agree on terms. A spy plane is one on a secret flight into another's airspace with the intent of gathering information the other would rather keep secret. A surveillance plane is one that is operating openly in international airspace gathering whatever information comes its way.

Can we agree on those terms and get on with the basic discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 08:50 AM

HEROIC DOGFIGHT

In an heroic dogfight, fought over international waters off mainland China, a 60's era American built Lockheed electra propeller airliner with 24 US Navy passenger/observers aboard chewed up one of Chinas best state of the art supersonic jet fighter aircraft. The American, using the infrequently seen combat tactic of straight and level flight, often relying on auto pilot, engaged the unfortunate single seat combat jet, and, knocked it out of the air, using only one of its formidable rotating propellers. After the action, the crew and passengers/observers dropped in on Chinas Hainan Island resort for some much deserved R&R as guests of the Chinese government.

reprinted from the Taiwan daily Gazette by staff writer, One wing Lo

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: sledge
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 09:07 AM

Kendall,

Thanks for setting it out so that even I could understand it.LOL

:)

Stuart

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:04 PM

No charge!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 04:47 PM

It was interesting to note that the Washington Post (a liberal paper) and the Washington Times (conservative), as well as Newsweek (liberal) and Time (conservative), all agreed that Bush made his bones on this one, by using his first statements to calm the right wing hawks, then using the diplomats of the State department to work the crisis.

The articles point out that Bush used similar techniques during the Florida situation. Recently the Post published a five day series on the Florida election runout, and frankly, Bush is given a lot of personal credit by a newspaper that hates him.

When asked to choose the legal strategy that will ultimately determine the election, he picks one that only one lawyer out of some twenty recommends; the unconstitutionality of the recount, and lo and behold, it was the winner. Al Gore on the other hand is depicted as swinging back and forth while becoming convinced that the Hispanic politicians in Miami are out to get him, and ends up calling them traitors.

Say what you will, at least we're not paying for a baby food factory that we bombed during a presidential blow-job.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 07:07 PM

Kendall, that reprint is hilarous! DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 07:23 PM

Hey Claymore, lets not forget when the Actor had Kaddafis child bombed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: MAV
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 08:24 PM

Dear Mousie,

Truth of the matter, MAV, is that you really don't know what I believe. I tried to tell you this once but you rudely told me I was wrong

No, (I'm sorry) I told you I knew what you felt.(I know how you're feeling about this comment).

I believe what I believe on a number of issues. On some things I am considered by those left-of-center to be a flaming Fascist.

As far as we (American conservatives)are concerned, fascist, marxist, stalinist, whatever, all authoritarianism is the domain of the left.

On others I am considered by those right-of-center to be a marxist, or worse

Like I said, all authoritarianism is of the left.

In fact I don't believe in the platform of any party in this country, nor am I a member of any party. I don't march to any party line

Well ain't you sumthin'. You may have a few patriotic brain cells, but my guess is that you are waaaaaay over there <-!!!!

Well, I know what my principles are and they are always the same. By now I should think you would know too.

Your use of the term "us" here makes me think you do

Yeah, I guess you could say I'm pro-life libertarian-type Republican(I'm sorry)

We can both play the "imagine YOU telling someone they're being rude!" game until the cows came home. Fact is you have alienated a huge number of people on this list by your brusque manner and rudeness

Look, except in my salutations, calling you specifically Thief, Ratnapper, Abductor of diseased laboratory rodents and other silly tortured versions of your screen name, I HAVE NOT CALLED YOU OR ANYONE ELSE, A MORON, IDIOT OR ANY VULGAR NAME OR USED "SCATOLOGICAL" REFERENCES LIKE YOU HAVE!

If those people have been bashing conservatives they deserve to be "alienated", if they are self professed enemies of the Constitution....I'm sorry.

I'm so sorry I call it like I see it and if referring to political activist groups in terms which may be less than flattering...TOO BLEEPING BAD!......GET OVER IT!

How do you explain all the PMs I've gotten from people thanking me for standing up for them and defending their point of view??????(sorry)

I have not. In the few cases where I really got under somebody's collar, I have done what I could to find out where I goofed up, and apologized

Oh, really? What do you think is the reason for my coming here in the first place? The (fascist) demonization and vilification of conservatives and their ideology (as though they don't have the right to live) was going on long before I got here and still is.(sorry for living)

On the other hand I have given up ever expecting you to apologize for the things you have done which I found unspeakably rude and offensive

If I speak my mind you will surely find everything I (and many other conservatives) say to be offensive. That indicates to me I'm right on target.

even though I have pointed them out and asked for an apology

You and I both agree the Chinese don't deserve an apology. I submit to you in kind that it is you who should be apologizing to me and others for your nefarious namecalling, perpetual putdowns and (sorry) cocky condescension.

You continue to be rude to me at every turn, even in threads where you are talking about treating me with respect and expecting the same in return and all that rot. Apparently a leopard CAN'T change its spots. Don't expect me to hold my heart in my hands waiting for you to be nice. I wipe my feet.

OH QUIT YOUR BLEEPING WHINING!!!.........GOOD GRIEF!!!

You don't deserve an apology. You're a vulgar, petty little man (I assume). You can dish it out but you can't take it. Can you???

It is not a "spy plane" and it drives me nuts when the press has been calling it such. If they can't tell the difference between spying and surveillance, they should get jobs at the local Cinemaplex or something.

What?

Which word here is bothering you?

NONE!...The fact that YOU wrote them at all leaves me speechless.

I could define them all for you, but that's a horrible waste of time for me, and quite dull. I suggest you go to an online dictionary like www.m-w.com and look them up yourself

ad hominem suggesting my stupidity (sorry for all stupidity).

"HUH?"

These words are even smaller. Where did you go to school?

Nebraska. Do you want to demonize the whole state? (no blue spots there incidently)

Oh, by the way, I stand corrected; I had somewhere picked up the idea it was 23 men and 1 woman, whereas it was 21 men and 3 women. Thus the above should read "boys and girls"

Whatever, I think "heroic men and women" would be more appropriate.

If we have any wild space left in this country in 4 years, it certainly won't be because Bush hasn't tried to (allow his Corporate sponsors to) rape, pave, or drill it.

"Looks like most of the raping and drilling in the last eight years has been in the White House"(that was a good one you have to admit)

Again your usual (boring) tactic of not answering the issue, but dragging in something totally unrelated

Ok, I'll address your stupid comments, not that you are stupid , just the premise of your multiple negative stupid (sorry) incorrect assertions (lies) that:

A.Bush was supported mostly by big business.
You can look at his full disclosure on the internet and see that his support came mostly from private individuals averaging around $500.

B. He plans to destroy the interior of the US.

If we as a nation demand a certain level of energy consumption, then we should be willing to obtain it from our own resources in the newest cleanest technology methods available to us. The hypocrisy of letting third world, lower tech. nations ruin their environment (out of sight, out of mind) for our benefit is just unfathomable. Besides, many of them hate our guts, they can keep their oil.

Most of your environmental damage comes not from drilling and pipelines, but from the environmentalist's favorite vehicle...SUPERTANKERS

We will have an energy policy soon, something we have not had for at least eight years.

Apparently my going through your posts point-by-point impresses you (you said I was getting less offensive and more argumentative)

Well yeah. It sure beats your backstabbing me while posting to another mudcatter.

but it's all the same old shinola so it hardly seems worth the time to go through it point-by-point

Well maybe you should check the chronological sequence of the posts, perhaps I felt more generous as the evening went on. I still don't like being called names.

Still, if that's what it takes, I'll do my part

Good, at least that way we can engage in the same manner as skeptic and I do.

You arch-conservatives are too funny. You want to lump everybody to your left into a huge cesspool, and complain if we don't give your side any credit, while all the while not giving our side any credit at all

You put yourselves in that "cesspool" when you defended the perjurous pervert (complete with Larry Flynt)

Give them credit for what? I have said the democrats' environmental progress in clean rivers and air was commendable. Are you saying all Republicans always voted against every enviro-bill?

The main reason cLINTON got good job approval poll numbers was because he signed GOP initiatives and took credit for it. (The Contract With America etc.)

The only thing the lefties have done in the last eight years is drag their feet and "practice the politics of personal destruction". Oh yeah, the democRATS defended the criminal x42 to the very end where he DEFECATED on them ONE LAST TIME!

saying asinine things like "anything the democrats do must be wrong."

Well, given that they've been in power for the last 40 years, consider that they caused the power shortage mess in California and that our petroleum production and refining capability is largely dependent on offshore facilities thanks to them. We are totally vulnerable in this respect.

Jesse, Maxine and Queasey (all democRATs) get a big thank you for the race baiting mess in Cincinatti and other cities in the upcoming hot horro-summer.

The fact that the schools are not producing intelligent students despite the zillions of dollars thrown at them and the amount stolen by the Dept of Education (a Carter {notice I capitalized it} giveaway to the teacher's unions)

The current cLINTON Recession, which can be largely attributed to the cLINTON administration's unrelenting attack on the private sector (MS etc).

The sale of the complete nuclear top secret and missile launching and guidance technology, advancing COMMUNIST China 35 years beyond where they were just eight short years ago, coupled with cLINTON and algor both taking money from your buddies Red China.

I can go on, I KNOW HOW YOU FEEL so I won't(sorry).

So much so that when we (the people to your left)

AHA!!! WE????? GOTCHA!!!!!!

The term "democRAT" is only a shroud, a catch-all title for all the LSCs and other thinly veiled anti-Constitutional and anti-family groups reveling in the freedom they would deny others and completely destroy if left unchecked.

(when we) agree with you on ANYTHING it takes your vocabulary away

Yeah, I have to admit that it does, but I could get used to it(see tax cut).

We're obviously not as narrow-minded as you are

There you go again with another attack. Our believing in the Constitutionally LIMITED FEDERAL GOVERNMENT does not make us narrow minded, just able to read the founding documents

Bonus question: How many Democrats broke ranks in the last vote in the Senate?

Assuming you're talking about the Tax Cut vote, I don't know, quite a few I guess.

How many Republicans?

Probably 3, Jeffords, Chaffee and Specter. I'd rather have Jiang, Castro and Gorbechev than those three (sorry)bastards, see what you can do for us.

Answer: far more D's than R's. Who's following the party line?

Thank God we are, it's about time. If we can't agree on this one we might as well just kill ourselves.

Who has marching orders?

Well, "The Boss" DID run on a tax cut, what the hell do you expect?

Bush's getting anything passed in a 50-50 Senate is proof positive that the Democrats are less party-conscious than the Republicans. Spin that.

I don't spin, we don't have to lie and I resent your implication that W does. Just because your side does it with impunity doesn't mean "everyone does it" (one of your childish self justifying tenents).

What "Bush's getting anything passed in a 50-50 Senate" demonstrates; is that despite his detractors, the GOP lieberals (including the above, Snowe and Collins) the democRATs realize the cLINTON legacy is the loss of both houses of Congress, the Presidency and a majority of state governments.(sorry)

It also bears out the truth of Robert Reich's assertion that "THE DEMOCRAT PARTY IS DEAD!...bereft of ideas.

The congressional democRATs can read the opinion polls too, realizing that the GOP is offering the public what they want. They know that if they want to get re-elected, they had better "get with the program".

I can see why you would distance yourself from the discredited democRATs because you know I'm right about corrupt criminal cLINTON and the memory of the house democRATs defending him tooth and nail, refusing to view evidence, fingers in ears going NA, NA, NA, just so they wouldn't have to hear the truth, standing on the White House lawn after impeachment....well, you know I get it.

YOU HAVE NO WHERE ELSE TO GO!!!

If you are a Naderite, thanks for the help.

If you are a Brigadeer, thanks for the help.

If you want to be buddies, stop calling names. We'll probably never agree , but Hey!...this is the USA!

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 09:00 PM

No, (I'm sorry) I told you I knew what you felt.(I know how you're feeling about this comment).

No, you don't. And it is rude to suggest you do.

As far as we (American conservatives)are concerned, fascist, marxist, stalinist, whatever, all authoritarianism is the domain of the left.

Of course, because you can't see anything negative on the right, so if it's bad, it must be on the left. Makes perfect sense, from a blinders-on point of view, such as you have shown yourself to have on this forum.

In fact I don't believe in the platform of any party in this country, nor am I a member of any party. I don't march to any party line

Well ain't you sumthin'. You may have a few patriotic brain cells, but my guess is that you are waaaaaay over there <-!!!!

The wise do not speak where they are ignorant.

Your use of the term "us" here makes me think you do

Yeah, I guess you could say I'm pro-life libertarian-type Republican(I'm sorry)

I'd rather you were a thinker. But it's your choice.

Look, except in my salutations, calling you specifically Thief, Ratnapper, Abductor of diseased laboratory rodents and other silly tortured versions of your screen name, I HAVE NOT CALLED YOU OR ANYONE ELSE, A MORON, IDIOT OR ANY VULGAR NAME OR USED "SCATOLOGICAL" REFERENCES LIKE YOU HAVE!

Yes, and I still seem to have more people rooting for me. Fact is, and listen closely, you can be rude, and nasty, and completely obnoxious WITHOUT EVER USING SUCH WORDS. The fact that somebody uses such words may mean they're just easily excitable (guilty as charged). You appear to be pretty cool-headed. Oh well, guess you got the better genes. Congratulations. That and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbuck's.

If those people have been bashing conservatives they deserve to be "alienated", if they are self professed enemies of the Constitution....I'm sorry.

We have absolutely NO self-professed enemies of the constitution on Mudcat. Unless you're using "self-professed" to mean something other than what it literally means (e.g. it's obvious they're enemies of the contitution from the positions they hold, even if they didn't really say "I am an enemy of the constitution").

I'll have to finish this later; time to go to church.

ciao for now,

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 09:03 PM

I know I fly off from time to time, but you guys are fecking ridiculous. GET A FECKING ROOM AND GIVE US A BREAK!!!

Rant over. Use the personal messages to carry it on, the rest of us are bored.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Margo
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:27 PM

I got this via email and enjoyed it very much...

AMERICAN APOLOGY TO THE CHINESE
Dear China,

We're sorry that you don't train your fighter pilots better. As a token of our apology, here's a copy of Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000. (Please take note of the Copyright )

We're sorry that you're front-line fighter planes can't outmaneuver a 35 year old prop-driven airliner. Perhaps you'd like to consider purchasing some surplus 1950's era Lockheed Starfighters from Taiwan. (We just replaced all theirs with shiny new F-16's)

We're sorry that you believe your territorial waters extend all the way to Australia. For future reference, here's an American 6th grade geography textbook. (Please take note of the Copyright information printed inside the cover.)

We're sorry that you can't seem to see your part of this incident. We know that it may seem easier to blame others than to take responsibility. Consider this fact while we build several new Aegis destroyers for our friends in the Republic of China (Taiwan).

We're especially sorry for treating you with such respect for the last 20 years. We will definitely rethink this policy and probably go back to treating you like a common, untrustworthy street gang very soon.

We're very sorry for ever granting you Most-Favored-Nation trading status and supporting your entrance into the World Trade Organization. This will be rectified at the soonest possible opportunity.

Yeah, sorry!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:35 PM

Credit is only given where credit is due. Whatever the US gov't did, Shrubya did not think it up. He simply couldn't have. At least the kids are coming home alive.

Since MAV is in here, I am out of here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: MAV
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:44 PM

Dear Mick,

Use the personal messages to carry it on, the rest of us are bored

If you have nothing to contribute to a political discussion I can see why you would be bored.

There seems to be about a hundred other threads dealing with everything under the sun EXCEPT POLITICS.

Perhaps in your boredom you could even start your own.

I think we try to confine ourselves to one or two.

OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 11:40 PM

Well, MAV old boy, you are right. I am probably out of my depth in a political discussion. I probably don't have your breadth and depth of experience in these matters. Forgive me for dipping in something for which I am ill suited. But even in my simple, happy condition, I can recognize an idiot. Maybe it takes one to know one. Play on, children and us simps will leave you to it.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:03 AM

I must give the devil his due. Bush did something right, he appointed Colin Powell. When FDR took office, he did not have a clue how to deal with the depression. What he did know, was to call in a gang of people who DID know.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Naemanson
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:47 AM

This is very interesting and I am probably going to regret this but what the hell...

MAV wrote: "As far as we (American conservatives)are concerned, fascist, marxist, stalinist, whatever, all authoritarianism is the domain of the left."

Well, actually, the fascists and the Nazi's were conservative movements. The communists were radicals and liberal at the beginning but once they had their hands on the controls they became very conservative. How you sort that one out is subject to interpretation.

"Like I said, all authoritarianism is of the left."

Except when it comes to telling women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies.

At one point the Clinton campaign came up in the discussion and there was a comment about Clinton signing the GOP initiatives. Well, that is the truth, kinda. He was fulfilling a campaign promise. Think way back to 1992. His major campaign promise was to break the deadlock in Congress and get the Government working again. And he did it. He took the GOP agenda as his own, humanized it and got it passed. Then the GOP decided they needed to hate him and blew the Whitewater thing all out of proportion and jumped on Monica (sorry, I couldn't resist the pun), and the rest is history. The Republican side is still ravening after the Clintons proving that they are a party of hate and unable to forget and forgive. The result of 8 years of the Clinton administration (if any party can take credit for the economy) has been the best and strongest economy in years. I believe the economy started to slump when the reality of either Gore or Bush coming into the White House hit home. Or maybe it was a matter of just being cautious.

MAV wrote: "If those people have been bashing conservatives they deserve to be "alienated", if they are self professed enemies of the Constitution....I'm sorry."

But the Republicans are the only party that has repeatedly shown itself to be an enemy of the Constitution. Remember that our president and the members of congress swear an oath to uphold The Constitution. They do not swear to support the president or any other institution. Yet Nixon and Reagan both took active steps to avoid constitutional restrictions, bending and even breaking the checks placed on the office of the president.

Democrats, on the other hand believe in the freedoms granted to the people of this country, upholding the spirit and the letter of the basis of all law in this land.

Sure there are individuals on one side or the other who screw up and let their personal foibles get in the way of their oath. Unfortunately the Republican party seems to be made up of people who march, in lock step, to the drums beaten by their leaders. As a result that magnifies the mistake of the leader.

The Democrats seem to be willing to question their leaders and argue with them. That is why they seem to be "rolling over" in the face of the Republican party these days. The Democrats have never been able to agree and come up with a consensus.

Now then, MAV, before we end up rolling on the ground, tearing at each other, let's agree on a basic principle in any argument. Only attack the arguments. Do not attack your opponent. I have tried very hard in the above paragraphs to keep the statements pointed at the Republican party in general. The degree to which you take them personally is up to you BUT THEY ARE NOT INTENDED AS A PERSONAL ATTACK.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 10:53 AM

BRAVO!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 11:45 AM

Sorcha, if someone is forcing you to read this thread, I'm very sorry. If not, maybe you shouldn't. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 12:23 PM

Continuing where we left off....

I'm so sorry I call it like I see it and if referring to political activist groups in terms which may be less than flattering...TOO BLEEPING BAD!......GET OVER IT!

In other words you have no wish to be civil. Just checking.

How do you explain all the PMs I've gotten from people thanking me for standing up for them and defending their point of view??????(sorry)

You have changed the subject. I wasn't talking about your point of view, but your method of stating and defending it. It's a form-versus-content thing. They clearly (from your above comment) were responding to your CONTENT, but not necessarily to your FORM. It may be that they also said "but I wish you could be more polite" and you failed to pass that point along. It could be that they don't care how rude you are as long as their POV is being aired. Or it could be that they enjoy nastiness on behalf of their cause as much as you seem to.

What do you think is the reason for my coming here in the first place? The (fascist) demonization and vilification of conservatives and their ideology (as though they don't have the right to live) was going on long before I got here and still is.(sorry for living)

So? Again, we were talking about FORM and not CONTENT. You can and should defend your POV, and more power to you. You ought not to be rude or unnecessarily offensive or otherwise unpleasant while doing so.

I submit to you that it is you who should be apologizing to me and others for your nefarious namecalling, perpetual putdowns and (sorry) cocky condescension.

I have, and do, and will. You don't, and haven't, and presumably won't apologize for your rudeness, arrogant assumption of knowledge of others' internal states, and any other number of offenses against human kindness.

OH QUIT YOUR BLEEPING WHINING!!!.........GOOD GRIEF!!!

Let me make sure I have you correctly. If you are upset because I call you a name, that's NOT whining, but if I am upset by your incessant rudness, that IS whining. Just checking.

You don't deserve an apology. You're a vulgar, petty little man (I assume).

There he is, ladies and gentlemen, in all his finest array. This is how the honorable gentleman MAV treats other human beings. Take note. You may be next.

You can dish it out but you can't take it. Can you???

You started the dishing. I responded in kind (of course I shouldn't have), and you flew off the handle. Who can dish it out but can't take it?

It is not a "spy plane"

What?

Which word here is bothering you?

NONE!...The fact that YOU wrote them at all leaves me speechless.

Which could only be the case if you arrogantly assumed you knew what I thought about this subject. The prosecution rests.

ad hominem suggesting my stupidity (sorry for all stupidity).

As I pointed out in another thread, improper use of "ad hominem."

And who needs to suggest anything? You convict yourself every time you pull one of your little stunts.

Oh, by the way, I stand corrected; I had somewhere picked up the idea it was 23 men and 1 woman, whereas it was 21 men and 3 women. Thus the above should read "boys and girls"

Whatever, I think "heroic men and women" would be more appropriate.

Apparently you are unaware of the long, time-honored custom of calling servicemen "boys" in this country.

Ok, I'll address your stupid comments, not that you are stupid , just the premise of your multiple negative stupid (sorry) incorrect assertions (lies) that:

Um, saying "sorry" immediately after being rude is hardly polite. You were better off just being your usual self than trying to look like you're being polite when it rather makes you look even more unpleasant.

Bush was supported mostly by big business. You can look at his full disclosure on the internet and see that his support came mostly from private individuals averaging around $500.

This proves nothing. Who were they? What do they support? How will they want him to behave in office?

If we as a nation demand a certain level of energy consumption, then we should be willing to obtain it from our own resources in the newest cleanest technology methods available to us.

Is this why he cut funding for alternative energy research-and-development? His actions and your words here don't add up.

Most of your environmental damage comes not from drilling and pipelines, but from the environmentalist's favorite vehicle...SUPERTANKERS

I have never met an environmentalist who liked supertankers. You are hanging out with some rather twisted environmentalists.

I still don't like being called names.

Then don't do it to others, and it will be far less likely to happen to you. We were having a fairly name-free political discussion, with the conservative POV being ably represented by DougR and Troll and other Mudcat oldtimers, before you arrived. Your arrival marked the beginning of the real name-calling, because you started doing it as soon as you got here. For you to whine now about being called names is a little --what's the right word?-- disingenuous? At the very least if you were to treat others the way you wish to be treated, you might have the moral standing to complain.

You put yourselves in that "cesspool" when you defended the perjurous pervert (complete with Larry Flynt)

I defended Clinton? When was that?

The main reason cLINTON got good job approval poll numbers was because he signed GOP initiatives and took credit for it. (The Contract With America etc.)

Ah, bipartisanship at its best. Wasn't it nice while it lasted? I thought so, anyway.

saying asinine things like "anything the democrats do must be wrong."

Well, given that they've been in power for the last 40 years,

You seem to forget that we have a 3-ring government, and that controlling the legislature is not equivalent to being in power, the way it would be in a parliamentary system.

The fact that the schools are not producing intelligent students despite the zillions of dollars thrown at them and the amount stolen by the Dept of Education (a Carter {notice I capitalized it} giveaway to the teacher's unions)

Nicely capitalized.

The schools are forced to do a thousand and one federally-mandated things, but without federally-supplied funding. Case in point: IDEA. That they might be having a hard time of it, especially with taxophobic "I don't have any kids in school why should I pay for them?" Republican local politics coming into play, is hardly surprising.

Note that I think property taxes are abhorrent. The only tax I would have, if I ran the zoo, is income tax. Heavily progressive, of course.

The current cLINTON Recession, which can be largely attributed to the cLINTON administration's unrelenting attack on the private sector (MS etc).

Gee, Clinton didn't create anti-monopoly laws. If MS broke them, and Clinton enforced them, more power to him.

We're obviously not as narrow-minded as you are

There you go again with another attack.

No attack about it. Comparing two different groups of people vis-a-vis one certain property, and determining which of them has it to a greater extent. Obviously you can call people RATS and other unplesantries and that's okay, but if I make an observation, based on facts I bring up, then it's an attack. I fear I don't see the parity here.

Our believing in the Constitutionally LIMITED FEDERAL GOVERNMENT does not make us narrow minded, just able to read the founding documents

We were talking about the limitations on the federal government? I thought we were talking about the ability of one side to see good in the other. Here you have once again changed the subject. Wonder I'm not getting dizzy.

Who's following the party line?

Thank God we are, it's about time. If we can't agree on this one we might as well just kill ourselves.

I thought following the party line was bad, evil, and otherwise ungood? You've flipped your flop. You're becoming a Clinton.

Who has marching orders?

Well, "The Boss" DID run on a tax cut, what the hell do you expect?

Again, "marching orders" followed by Republicans are okay, "marching orders" followed by Democrats are evil. You still aren't really THINKING, but just judging the issues by a "we good -- you bad" template.

Bush's getting anything passed in a 50-50 Senate is proof positive that the Democrats are less party-conscious than the Republicans. Spin that.

I don't spin, we don't have to lie and I resent your implication that W does.

All politicians lie. Get over it. Sheesh.

Just because your side does it with impunity doesn't mean "everyone does it" (one of your childish self justifying tenents).

Self-justifying? I don't lie. This makes no sense at all.

What "Bush's getting anything passed in a 50-50 Senate" demonstrates; is that despite his detractors, the GOP lieberals (including the above, Snowe and Collins) the democRATs realize the cLINTON legacy is the loss of both houses of Congress, the Presidency and a majority of state governments.(sorry)

Ah. So if democrats follow "marching orders" they're evil, and if they break ranks, it's because they realize they're evil (or have been in the past). Again, you're not really thinking.

I can see why you would distance yourself from the discredited democRATs because you know I'm right about corrupt criminal cLINTON and the memory of the house democRATs defending him tooth and nail, refusing to view evidence, fingers in ears going NA, NA, NA, just so they wouldn't have to hear the truth, standing on the White House lawn after impeachment....well, you know I get it.

I distance myself from both parties because neither are interested in serving ME, and neither have my vision of what is best for this country. Again, you only make yourself look a fool when you try to read others' minds.

YOU HAVE NO WHERE ELSE TO GO!!!

Why go anywhere? I am not moving. I was not a Republicrat before this election, and will not be a Republicrat after Bush is a bitter and ugly yet distant memory.

alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: MAV
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:32 PM

Naemanson,

Well, actually, the fascists and the Nazi's were conservative movements

You mean they were strict followers of the US Constitution?

Except when it comes to telling women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies

All I'm saying is it should be an individual state decision. Abortion is not mentioned in the Constitution and R v.Wade should be reversed.

Yet Nixon and Reagan both took active steps to avoid constitutional restrictions, bending and even breaking the checks placed on the office of the president

Nixon resigned and we helped him pack. He did nothing compared to the hatchet job cLINTON did. At least he had the dignity to resign.

What did Reagan do to violate the Constitution?

Democrats, on the other hand believe in the freedoms granted to the people of this country, upholding the spirit and the letter of the basis of all law in this land

Yeah they do, except for one thing....

FREEDOM ISN'T GRANTED TO THE PEOPLE

People give permission to the state to regulate them.

Democrats believe that government is the answer to every problem. They want you be dependent on them for your every need and to have you shirk responsibility for your own needs and actions.

They don't give a damn about law and order and love protecting a criminal's rights over yours.

Your own Maine speaker of the House said "I don't give a damn what it says in the Constitution".

This is really representative of spirit and letter, ya think?

the Republican party seems to be made up of people who march, in lock step, to the drums beaten by their leaders

You're kidding right? Ever heard of "The Big Tent"? This implies we can include everything from Bible thumpers to murder/borts.

We have "Country Club Republicans", "Christian Conservatives", "Social Conservatives", "Fiscal Conservatives", "Moderates (Liberals)", "RINOs", "Libertarians" etc.

Are you telling me there is no difference between Christine Ron Paul, Ben Nighthorse Campbell, Christine Todd Whitman and John Ashcroft?

We argue about everything all the time, and I say the tent is too damn big.

The Democrats seem to be willing to question their leaders and argue with them. That is why they seem to be "rolling over" in the face of the Republican party these days. The Democrats have never been able to agree and come up with a consensus

I think you have it backwards. I know several defectors (elected) who have told me the reason they left the democrat party was because of the forceful coersion in the House. If you did not vote as told, there would be no committee assignments for you and you would be opposed in a primary in your next election.

Now then, MAV, before we end up rolling on the ground, tearing at each other, let's agree on a basic principle in any argument. Only attack the arguments. Do not attack your opponent. I have tried very hard in the above paragraphs to keep the statements pointed at the Republican party in general. The degree to which you take them personally is up to you BUT THEY ARE NOT INTENDED AS A PERSONAL ATTACK.

Geeesh, take it easy. I'm not going to attack you.

I think you've seen my complaints referring to vulgarities and fecal comparisons.....You haven't done anything like that

I've heard you are a very nice guy.

I'd rather have you as an arguing buddy, not an enemy.

regards,

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Naemanson
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:43 PM

Arguing buddy is fine with me. I am processing your rebuttal and will get back to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: MAV
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:37 PM

Hey Mouse,

I think we broke the html thingies. I noticed both yours and my posts bold and italics are wierding out.

Well, I know mine are not doing what I put in there.

Look, we disagree and have different styles, I don't like being called names and you don't like being power insulted.

I have, and do, and will. You don't, and haven't, and presumably won't apologize for your rudeness, arrogant assumption of knowledge of others' internal states

Ok, we'll call a truce.

and any other number of offenses against human kindness

Let's not get crazy here. I don't remember doing that.

I will cease and desist

You are none of the things I allegedly called you.

You however need to reciprocate and tell me what I did call you.

I do, however, intend to continue debating with you unless you insist on posting things I agree with, which really p!$$e$ me off.

Alright, back to work Ralph.

This proves nothing. Who were they? What do they support? How will they want him to behave in office?

They are Republican voters solicited for hard money contributions from all over the US. The fact that they gave him money shows that they agreed with his campaign positions which were published in paperback form.

Um, saying "sorry" immediately after being rude is hardly polite

I was trying to use that "apology" trick that worked on the Chinese...didn't fool you huh?

Who's following the party line?

We don't have a history of it. We don't have a party of conservatives as I tried to point out to Naemonson.

I think it's a miracle when it does happen.

The democrats have diversity, but very few or no conservatives among their ranks. If they are there, you'll never know about it.(except of course Traficant)

All politicians lie

Please don't paint things with the broad brush. That can't be a true statement.

They may not paint PRO-LIFE on their foreheads, but not vomiting their every personal belief on the often dispassionate voters is not lying.

I defended Clinton? When was that?

Well, you identified yourself with the left. The democrats are most of the left. There's the Green Party and a few others, but the democrats pretty much saturated with those on the left.

Nicely capitalized.

Thank you. (go ahead and say it)

If MS broke them, and Clinton enforced them, more power to him

That's a big "if", I think the government schools and post office fit the "monopoly" moniker much better.

The schools are forced to do a thousand and one federally-mandated things, but without federally-supplied funding.

An excellent argument against the Dept of Ed.

Note that I think property taxes are abhorrent

There you go again...stating something I agree with....stop it now.

The only tax I would have, if I ran the zoo, is income tax. Heavily progressive, of course

Well that's more like it. I have two much better ideas on taxation. Would you like to argue them?

I was not a Republicrat before this election

Sounds kinda Libertarian in here at the moment.

Your turn

mav out

PS. If you don't tell me what I allegedly called you, I will go back to calling you that.(if I can figure out what it was).

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:50 PM

Again, Mav, you have this bleary-eyed notion that the only way to raise hackles or be rude is by using vulgarities. Which conveniently lets you off the hook because your favorite way of being nasty doesn't involve same.

But if you want specifics, somebody posting with your login did call me a vulgar, petty little man

I certainly am vulgar, but I am neither petty nor little. But even being true doesn't justify rudeness.

the democrats pretty much saturated with those on the left

This clause makes no sense to me. Did you leave out a verb? Anyway, there are LOTS of people on the left who aren't Democrats. They're INDEPENDENT. Because, like me, they don't feel "represented" by either of the big parties.

Oh, you also called my grandfather a thug. For which I shall not forgive you (unless of course you ask for it).

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: MAV
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:52 PM

Whidbey Island Naval Base- MAV newswire

This just in......

AIR CREW REPORTS F-8 STRUCK PROP

The crew of the ill fated EP-3 forced down by the communist Chinese having been debriefed are now holding a press conference and answering questions for reporters.

The Pilot Lieutenant Osborn reported that the Chinese fighter jet, in a harrassment manuver, accidentally struck one of the propellers of the slow moving surveillance craft designed in the middle of the last century.

I told you the MOE-RON flew through the propeller!

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Naemanson
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 11:44 PM

ME: Well, actually, the fascists and the Nazi's were conservative movements MAV: You mean they were strict followers of the US Constitution?

We need to agree on definitions. I think I have a rather different view of conservatives than you. For me the term conservative doesn't apply to a party in the USA but to a way of thinking. I believe conservatives are more focused on the status quo, not rocking the boat, a strict and restrictive interpretation of the rule of law. If we keep our argument strictly within the borders of this country then I would be willing to label parties this way but the topic at the time was political movements overseas. Thus the Nazi's and the fascists were, at the start, conservative movements. Once past their liberal pro labor beginnings and established in power the "communists" became the model for conservative thinking.

ME: Except when it comes to telling women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies MAV: All I'm saying is it should be an individual state decision. Abortion is not mentioned in the Constitution and R v.Wade should be reversed.

Well, here we are once again at cross purposes. I am not talking about what MAV has said. I am talking about the parties. Abortion is a hot button topic and seems to drive to some extent at times, the Republican agenda. We have two completely different views of the topic. For conservatives in the USA abortion is the killing of a person. For the liberals it is a matter of freedom of choice. The two sides will never be reconciled because they are arguing apples and oranges.

MAV: Nixon resigned and we helped him pack. He did nothing compared to the hatchet job cLINTON did. At least he had the dignity to resign. What did Reagan do to violate the Constitution?

Reagan, or maybe it was Bush Sr., authorized the Iran-Contra trade in order to side step the constitutional checks placed on the Presidency. Oliver North, in direct conflict with his oath to protect the Constitution, carried out their orders. I will always believe that Reagan knew what was going on and lied about it when deposed.

I am unaware of anything that Clinton did that violated the Constitutional limits of his office. There is no law against having sex in the White House. Lying about it was poor judgment and showed a decided lack of character but it wasn't against the law. He may have violated the civil rights of the other women but nothing has been proven yet and the law of the land is that he is innocent until proven guilty. His actions have offended a large number of people in this country but not enough to give GB Jr. a sweeping mandate to do what he wants with the office to clean up the actions of his predecessor.

ME: Democrats, on the other hand believe in the freedoms granted to the people of this country, upholding the spirit and the letter of the basis of all law in this land MAV: Yeah they do, except for one thing.... FREEDOM ISN'T GRANTED TO THE PEOPLE

Well, I would argue that one. I have worked as an immigration officer and I know that the Constitution grants certain rights to each person in the United States. That is the way it is worded. There are no words in the Constitution about those freedoms belonging to citizens. If a person can set foot on this land s/he is instantly accorded full protection under the Constitution. With that comes all the rights we take for granted.

As far as "People give permission to the state to regulate them." I didn't vote for ratification of the Constitution. I didn't have anything to do with the creation of this State. I was born here and at my birth I was granted certain unalienable rights. Eisenhower didn't give me those and I didn't go looking for them (though I have defended them). But Thomas Jefferson through the Constitution granted me those rights.

Look to foreign lands where the people are oppressed. Have those people given their permission to their governments to torture them in prison cells and shoot them at midnight? No! And if they manage to throw off the yoke of oppression and settle the mantle of democracy about their shoulders they will have granted freedom to their descendants through their actions.

"Democrats believe that government is the answer to every problem. They want you be dependent on them for your every need and to have you shirk responsibility for your own needs and actions."

I work for the Government and I KNOW it isn't the answer. But we already tried working without the Government regulating things and it was a dismal failure. Look at the lives of the common folk through the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th Centuries. Look at how people suffered during the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl Years. There was nobody to support them.

"They don't give a damn about law and order and love protecting a criminal's rights over yours."

I sometimes have a problem with this too when I see a criminal walking free while his victim's family still suffers. But that is the price for our system of Government. If he has served the sentence for his crime then he has paid the price and the score has been settled. It may not seem so to the victim or that family but that is the case.

Now it is possible you are talking about the restrictions placed on police in their investigations. Please remember that we are, each of us, assumed innocent until proven guilty. Thus the full protection of the Constitution hangs over us and must be enforced. Nothing should be done to the suspect that is a violation of the Constitution. As you have already stated that would be abhorrent to conservatives. So what is the problem?

MAV: Your own Maine speaker of the House said "I don't give a damn what it says in the Constitution".

Yeah, we all have our crosses to bear.

Me: "the Republican party seems to be made up of people who march, in lock step, to the drums beaten by their leaders"

I'm gonna have to stand by that statement based on my experience with the conservatives I have worked with (a lot of them) and the actions in Congress.

There is a reason why the Republican party is so popular with the military. It is because it is a party that knows the meaning of leadership and loyalty (paraphrasing various politicians during various campaigns). It is because the military members don't have to worry about who is truly in charge and because the conservatives brook no nonsense. No questions are allowed. Every man is expected to do his duty.

And in Congress, where you can pretty much expect votes to fall out along party lines, crossing over to vote against the party line is generally not seen in the Republican party, But it happens all the time for the Democrats. "Question Authority" is a Democrat's slogan but could never be used by a Republican.

My other big problem with conservatives in general but not specific or focused on them alone is that they seem to be creating another aristocracy in this country. We fought a protracted and bloody revolution to get rid of one set of aristocrats and now we have more. Generally I have noticed that it is the conservatives that are impressed with high office and money. We seem to have lost the idea that the president is just the human being we have hired to do a job. He is not a god. He is not a king. We do not have to kow-tow to him because he is in the room.

But that is my own rant and not one I am necessarily blaming your side on. People in general (liberals and conservatives) seem to need to depend on a leader. Ugh!

MAV: I've heard you are a very nice guy.

Hmmm, who's been talking behind my back? Have you heard of the stamp collector who met a beautiful girl. He looked her up and down and said, "You are more beautiful than any stamp in my collection." She replied, "Philately will get you nowhere." *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 08:17 AM

I need to do this thing when I am wide awake. I just re-read my post and realized it doesn't quite make sense in some places.

"I believe conservatives are more focused on the status quo, not rocking the boat, a strict and restrictive interpretation of the rule of law."

That is a limited version of my definition. Conservatives, in my mind, tend to concentrate too much on patriotic fervor. Thus, the Nazi's were outraged at what Germany had become after WWI. They focused on "improving" their country using nationalism as the rallying call. Fascists too were overly concerned with "protecting" their countries. Communists too, worked to maintain the status quo once they were in charge.

In this country conservatives are also horrified at how this country has changed and are rallying to protect it. There is no way to convince them that the changes are for the better (and I know some of those changes aren't). Our conservatives also use nationalism as the rallying call. Anyone who disagrees is not a patriot.

I'm getting off track. My intention with this is to clearly define my view of conservatism using positive words, I've used plenty of negative words in the past but those do not belong here.

So, my picture of a conservative is a person who finds fault with any easing of restrictions on the people, cannot abide what he sees as laziness, longs for the good old days (hazily defined as the '50's), expects to see respect paid to authority, focuses much of his life on the pursuit of financial gain (seeing that as the ultimate definition of "success"), expects people to toe the line, is generally religious but not spiritual, expects others to agree with his views and brooks no argument, and generally (and here I speak from experience) is prejudiced against most non white races. I repeat, this is MY picture.

You are welcome to be a conservative who does not fit some or many of these points. Many conservatives do not necessarily fit into this mold. But this is the way I see them based on years of exposure.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 11:34 AM

To those who smugly scorn China's relative poverty (eg a spoof apology that China is a third-world economy, another apology for America taking China seriously for the past 20 years), and who think a solution is to boycott Chinese exports:

In my own travelling in the states (California, Oregon, Illinois, Alaska) I was sometimes in stores where it was impossible to find goods that had not been made in China. In other words, cheap Chinese labour is funding the American way of life. I am delighted that this is so. It means the Chinese economy is expanding at a phenomenal rate, while the US economy is languishing at best. This is good, because in its own tiny way it will help reduce the disparity between a rich nation and a poor nation. And for all that Mousethief and others think America can pull China into line just by exerting economic pressure, it ain't so any more. America's trade with China is massive, and the benefits go both ways. It can't be turned off at will.

Someone questioned the value of apologies by citing (inter alia) British appeasement of Hitler. That line itself is open to question. Although my heart is nearer communism than fascism, I am aware with hindsight that the Soviet Union was not communism, and I am coming to think (again with hindsight) that Britain might have appeased Hitler further, even joining forces with Hitler against the USSR. Under that scenario there would be millions of Jews in Madagascar now, but at least they would not have been gassed. Europe would have been spared much devastation, America would not have become the pre-eminent world power, and would not have reaped the benefit of European science in weapons research etc. And of course, many millions of Russians would not have died at Stalingrad etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 12:53 PM

He should also get credit for being tough on drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 01:00 PM

Fionn, you are right. The difficulty is separating the imports for which the Chinese people get paid and those from the Government prison sweat shops.

Fortunately there are civil rights watch dog organizations to watch out for those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: kendall
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 01:37 PM

Your concern for the Chinese economy is valid, but, my main concern is for the poor American worker who has a $100,000 mortgage and no job to pay it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 03:00 PM

Kendall! You sound like a bush sympathiser... Oh wait a minute, you said WORKER not INVESTOR. My mistake!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: kendall
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 04:33 PM

In a way, I AM a Bush sympathizer... have alaways had comassion for the handicapped.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: MAV
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 12:06 AM

Naemanson,

We need to agree on definitions. I think I have a rather different view of conservatives than you

Well we might. I had said "American Conservatives" (see post numbered "14-Apr-01 - 08:47 AM", this thread)

In America, there are several kinds of conservatives as I mentioned in an earlier post.

I'm a libertarian flavored Republican.

"I believe conservatives are more focused on the status quo, not rocking the boat, a strict and restrictive interpretation of the rule of law."

Well, the status quo at the moment is borderline socialism with the government attempting to become the health care industry, power producing industry, retirement security industry, education industry (mission accomplished)etc.

I don't think we want to "conserve" that but rather the Constitution as written.(strict reading)

Reagan, or maybe it was Bush Sr., authorized the Iran-Contra trade in order to side step the constitutional checks placed on the Presidency

The Boland (sp?) amendment, I believe, was the piece of legislation in question.

I'm not sure of the status of the "amendment" or if it was ever ratified by the states.(I didn't find it)

The congress had seemed to forget that the Constitution gave the power to conduct foreign affairs to the president.

I know that the Constitution grants certain rights to each person in the United States. That is the way it is worded. There are no words in the Constitution about those freedoms belonging to citizens

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquillity, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America

Here "the people" establish the Constitution and authorize the limits on government. The Declaration of Independence further states "certain inalienable rights" which implies they are universal, given by God (or nature).

No insomnia here.

Nitey nite.

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 08:10 AM

> I Am Your Worst Nightmare. I am a BAD American. > > > > > > I like big cars, big tits, and big cigars. > > > > > > I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some > > > > > > mid-level governmental functionary democrat with a bad comb-over > who > > > > wants > > > > > > to give it away to crack addicts squirting out babies. > > > > > > China approaches our plane in international waters with fighter > > jets, > > > > > > crashes into it forcing us into an emergency landing, seizes our > > plane > > > > > > and > > > > > > holds our crewmen captive and then demands an apology......here's > > your > > > > > > apology China.....F--K YOU! > > > > > > I'm not in touch with my feelings and I like it that way, dammit. > > > > > > I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne, > Ice-T > > > > > > or Marilyn Manson sang. > > > > > > I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer. > > > > > > I believe it's called the Boy Scouts for a reason. > > > > > > Japan uses a sneak attack on us during World War II and wreaks > havoc > > > > > > on Pearl Harbor which forces the U.S. into the war. Then we > recently > > > > > > apologized to Japan for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima which > helped > > to > > > > > > end > > > > > > the war. Here's an amendment to that apology......F--K YOU TOO! > > > > > > I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. > > > > > > I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. > > > > > > I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you'd better do it > > in > > > > > > English. > > > > > > I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for > > > unpopular > > > > > > opinions or actions. > > > > > > I think Oprah is a big fat pig. > > > > > > I think fireworks should be legal on the 4th of July. > > > > > > I think that being a student doesn't give you any more > enlightenment > > > > > > than working at Blockbuster. In fact, if your parents are footing > > the > > > > > > bill to put your pansy ass through 4-7 years of college, you > haven't > > > > > > begun to be enlightened. > > > > > > I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite > or > > > > > > fat-free on the package. > > > > > > Hillary Clinton is a carpet-munching lesbian. > > > > > > My heroes are John Wayne, the Simpsons, and whoever canceled Dr. > > > Quinn, > > > > > > Medicine Woman. > > > > > > I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor. > > > > > > I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about > it. > > > > > > I think global warming is a big lie. Where are all those experts > > now, > > > > > > when I am freezing my ass through a > > > > > > long winter? > > > > > > I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I didn't wander forty > > years > > > in > > > > > > the desert after getting chased out of Egypt, I haven't > > > > > > burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither > have > > > you, > > > > > > so shut-the-f--k-up already. > > > > > > I want to know which church is it exactly where the Rev. Jessie > > > Jackson > > > > > > preaches. And where does he get his money. And why is he always > part > > > of > > > > > > the problem and not the solution. > > > > > > I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry ass if > you're > > > > > > running from them. I also think they have the right to pull your > ass > > > > > > over if you are breaking the law, regardless of what color you > are. > > > > > > I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't > > want > > > > > > you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the > > > > > > world for the next four years. > > > > > > I worry about dying before I get even. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate those bastards standing in the intersections trying to sell > > me > > > > > > crap or trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their cause. > > > These > > > > > > people should be targets. I think if you are in the passing lane, > > and > > > > > > not passing, your license should be revoked, and you should be > > forced > > > to > > > > > > ride the bus until you promise to never delay the rest of us > again. > > > > > > I think beef jerky could quite possibly be the perfect food. > > > > > > I enjoy watching high speed pursuits, the more damage the better. > > > > > > I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it > takes > > > two > > > > > > parents. > > > > > > I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please > > > don't > > > > > > pretend they are a political statement. > > > > > > I think Dr. Seuss was a genius. I'm neither angry nor > > disenfranchised, > > > > > > no matter > > > > > > how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to > believe > > > > > > otherwise. I believe if she has her lips on your d--k, it is sex, > > and > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > sex for both of you. This even applies when she is a fat pig with > > self > > > > > > esteem > > > > > > issues, and you are President of the United States. > > > > > > It means , dumbass. If > > > > > > that makes me a bad American, then yes, I'm a bad American. > > > > > > You will get NO apology from me for it. If you too are a bad > > American > > > > > > please forward this to everyone you know. We need our country > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** This email has been scanned for viruses *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I Am Your Worst Nightmare. I am a BAD American. > > > > > > I like big cars, big tits, and big cigars. > > > > > > I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some > > > > > > mid-level governmental functionary democrat with a bad comb-over > who > > > > wants > > > > > > to give it away to crack addicts squirting out babies. > > > > > > China approaches our plane in international waters with fighter > > jets, > > > > > > crashes into it forcing us into an emergency landing, seizes our > > plane > > > > > > and > > > > > > holds our crewmen captive and then demands an apology......here's > > your > > > > > > apology China.....F--K YOU! > > > > > > I'm not in touch with my feelings and I like it that way, dammit. > > > > > > I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne, > Ice-T > > > > > > or Marilyn Manson sang. > > > > > > I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer. > > > > > > I believe it's called the Boy Scouts for a reason. > > > > > > Japan uses a sneak attack on us during World War II and wreaks > havoc > > > > > > on Pearl Harbor which forces the U.S. into the war. Then we > recently > > > > > > apologized to Japan for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima which > helped > > to > > > > > > end > > > > > > the war. Here's an amendment to that apology......F--K YOU TOO! > > > > > > I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. > > > > > > I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. > > > > > > I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you'd better do it > > in > > > > > > English. > > > > > > I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for > > > unpopular > > > > > > opinions or actions. > > > > > > I think Oprah is a big fat pig. > > > > > > I think fireworks should be legal on the 4th of July. > > > > > > I think that being a student doesn't give you any more > enlightenment > > > > > > than working at Blockbuster. In fact, if your parents are footing > > the > > > > > > bill to put your pansy ass through 4-7 years of college, you > haven't > > > > > > begun to be enlightened. > > > > > > I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite > or > > > > > > fat-free on the package. > > > > > > Hillary Clinton is a carpet-munching lesbian. > > > > > > My heroes are John Wayne, the Simpsons, and whoever canceled Dr. > > > Quinn, > > > > > > Medicine Woman. > > > > > > I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor. > > > > > > I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about > it. > > > > > > I think global warming is a big lie. Where are all those experts > > now, > > > > > > when I am freezing my ass through a > > > > > > long winter? > > > > > > I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I didn't wander forty > > years > > > in > > > > > > the desert after getting chased out of Egypt, I haven't > > > > > > burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither > have > > > you, > > > > > > so shut-the-f--k-up already. > > > > > > I want to know which church is it exactly where the Rev. Jessie > > > Jackson > > > > > > preaches. And where does he get his money. And why is he always > part > > > of > > > > > > the problem and not the solution. > > > > > > I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry ass if > you're > > > > > > running from them. I also think they have the right to pull your > ass > > > > > > over if you are breaking the law, regardless of what color you > are. > > > > > > I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't > > want > > > > > > you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the > > > > > > world for the next four years. > > > > > > I worry about dying before I get even. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate those bastards standing in the intersections trying to sell > > me > > > > > > crap or trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their cause. > > > These > > > > > > people should be targets. I think if you are in the passing lane, > > and > > > > > > not passing, your license should be revoked, and you should be > > forced > > > to > > > > > > ride the bus until you promise to never delay the rest of us > again. > > > > > > I think beef jerky could quite possibly be the perfect food. > > > > > > I enjoy watching high speed pursuits, the more damage the better. > > > > > > I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it > takes > > > two > > > > > > parents. > > > > > > I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please > > > don't > > > > > > pretend they are a political statement. > > > > > > I think Dr. Seuss was a genius. I'm neither angry nor > > disenfranchised, > > > > > > no matter > > > > > > how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to > believe > > > > > > otherwise. I believe if she has her lips on your d--k, it is sex, > > and > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > sex for both of you. This even applies when she is a fat pig with > > self > > > > > > esteem > > > > > > issues, and you are President of the United States. > > > > > > It means , dumbass. If > > > > > > that makes me a bad American, then yes, I'm a bad American. > > > > > > You will get NO apology from me for it. If you too are a bad > > American > > > > > > please forward this to everyone you know. We need our country > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** This email has been scanned for viruses *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I Am Your Worst Nightmare. I am a BAD American. > > > > > > I like big cars, big tits, and big cigars. > > > > > > I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some > > > > > > mid-level governmental functionary democrat with a bad comb-over > who > > > > wants > > > > > > to give it away to crack addicts squirting out babies. > > > > > > China approaches our plane in international waters with fighter > > jets, > > > > > > crashes into it forcing us into an emergency landing, seizes our > > plane > > > > > > and > > > > > > holds our crewmen captive and then demands an apology......here's > > your > > > > > > apology China.....F--K YOU! > > > > > > I'm not in touch with my feelings and I like it that way, dammit. > > > > > > I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne, > Ice-T > > > > > > or Marilyn Manson sang. > > > > > > I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer. > > > > > > I believe it's called the Boy Scouts for a reason. > > > > > > Japan uses a sneak attack on us during World War II and wreaks > havoc > > > > > > on Pearl Harbor which forces the U.S. into the war. Then we > recently > > > > > > apologized to Japan for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima which > helped > > to > > > > > > end > > > > > > the war. Here's an amendment to that apology......F--K YOU TOO! > > > > > > I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. > > > > > > I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. > > > > > > I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you'd better do it > > in > > > > > > English. > > > > > > I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for > > > unpopular > > > > > > opinions or actions. > > > > > > I think Oprah is a big fat pig. > > > > > > I think fireworks should be legal on the 4th of July. > > > > > > I think that being a student doesn't give you any more > enlightenment > > > > > > than working at Blockbuster. In fact, if your parents are footing > > the > > > > > > bill to put your pansy ass through 4-7 years of college, you > haven't > > > > > > begun to be enlightened. > > > > > > I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite > or > > > > > > fat-free on the package. > > > > > > Hillary Clinton is a carpet-munching lesbian. > > > > > > My heroes are John Wayne, the Simpsons, and whoever canceled Dr. > > > Quinn, > > > > > > Medicine Woman. > > > > > > I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor. > > > > > > I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about > it. > > > > > > I think global warming is a big lie. Where are all those experts > > now, > > > > > > when I am freezing my ass through a > > > > > > long winter? > > > > > > I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I didn't wander forty > > years > > > in > > > > > > the desert after getting chased out of Egypt, I haven't > > > > > > burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither > have > > > you, > > > > > > so shut-the-f--k-up already. > > > > > > I want to know which church is it exactly where the Rev. Jessie > > > Jackson > > > > > > preaches. And where does he get his money. And why is he always > part > > > of > > > > > > the problem and not the solution. > > > > > > I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry ass if > you're > > > > > > running from them. I also think they have the right to pull your > ass > > > > > > over if you are breaking the law, regardless of what color you > are. > > > > > > I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't > > want > > > > > > you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the > > > > > > world for the next four years. > > > > > > I worry about dying before I get even. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate those bastards standing in the intersections trying to sell > > me > > > > > > crap or trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their cause. > > > These > > > > > > people should be targets. I think if you are in the passing lane, > > and > > > > > > not passing, your license should be revoked, and you should be > > forced > > > to > > > > > > ride the bus until you promise to never delay the rest of us > again. > > > > > > I think beef jerky could quite possibly be the perfect food. > > > > > > I enjoy watching high speed pursuits, the more damage the better. > > > > > > I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it > takes > > > two > > > > > > parents. > > > > > > I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please > > > don't > > > > > > pretend they are a political statement. > > > > > > I think Dr. Seuss was a genius. I'm neither angry nor > > disenfranchised, > > > > > > no matter > > > > > > how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to > believe > > > > > > otherwise. I believe if she has her lips on your d--k, it is sex, > > and > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > sex for both of you. This even applies when she is a fat pig with > > self > > > > > > esteem > > > > > > issues, and you are President of the United States. > > > > > > It means , dumbass. If > > > > > > that makes me a bad American, then yes, I'm a bad American. > > > > > > You will get NO apology from me for it. If you too are a bad > > American > > > > > > please forward this to everyone you know. We need our country > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** This email has been scanned for viruses *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I Am Your Worst Nightmare. I am a BAD American. > > > > > > I like big cars, big tits, and big cigars. > > > > > > I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some > > > > > > mid-level governmental functionary democrat with a bad comb-over > who > > > > wants > > > > > > to give it away to crack addicts squirting out babies. > > > > > > China approaches our plane in international waters with fighter > > jets, > > > > > > crashes into it forcing us into an emergency landing, seizes our > > plane > > > > > > and > > > > > > holds our crewmen captive and then demands an apology......here's > > your > > > > > > apology China.....F--K YOU! > > > > > > I'm not in touch with my feelings and I like it that way, dammit. > > > > > > I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne, > Ice-T > > > > > > or Marilyn Manson sang. > > > > > > I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer. > > > > > > I believe it's called the Boy Scouts for a reason. > > > > > > Japan uses a sneak attack on us during World War II and wreaks > havoc > > > > > > on Pearl Harbor which forces the U.S. into the war. Then we > recently > > > > > > apologized to Japan for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima which > helped > > to > > > > > > end > > > > > > the war. Here's an amendment to that apology......F--K YOU TOO! > > > > > > I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. > > > > > > I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. > > > > > > I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you'd better do it > > in > > > > > > English. > > > > > > I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for > > > unpopular > > > > > > opinions or actions. > > > > > > I think Oprah is a big fat pig. > > > > > > I think fireworks should be legal on the 4th of July. > > > > > > I think that being a student doesn't give you any more > enlightenment > > > > > > than working at Blockbuster. In fact, if your parents are footing > > the > > > > > > bill to put your pansy ass through 4-7 years of college, you > haven't > > > > > > begun to be enlightened. > > > > > > I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite > or > > > > > > fat-free on the package. > > > > > > Hillary Clinton is a carpet-munching lesbian. > > > > > > My heroes are John Wayne, the Simpsons, and whoever canceled Dr. > > > Quinn, > > > > > > Medicine Woman. > > > > > > I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor. > > > > > > I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about > it. > > > > > > I think global warming is a big lie. Where are all those experts > > now, > > > > > > when I am freezing my ass through a > > > > > > long winter? > > > > > > I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I didn't wander forty > > years > > > in > > > > > > the desert after getting chased out of Egypt, I haven't > > > > > > burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither > have > > > you, > > > > > > so shut-the-f--k-up already. > > > > > > I want to know which church is it exactly where the Rev. Jessie > > > Jackson > > > > > > preaches. And where does he get his money. And why is he always > part > > > of > > > > > > the problem and not the solution. > > > > > > I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry ass if > you're > > > > > > running from them. I also think they have the right to pull your > ass > > > > > > over if you are breaking the law, regardless of what color you > are. > > > > > > I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't > > want > > > > > > you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the > > > > > > world for the next four years. > > > > > > I worry about dying before I get even. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate those bastards standing in the intersections trying to sell > > me > > > > > > crap or trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their cause. > > > These > > > > > > people should be targets. I think if you are in the passing lane, > > and > > > > > > not passing, your license should be revoked, and you should be > > forced > > > to > > > > > > ride the bus until you promise to never delay the rest of us > again. > > > > > > I think beef jerky could quite possibly be the perfect food. > > > > > > I enjoy watching high speed pursuits, the more damage the better. > > > > > > I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it > takes > > > two > > > > > > parents. > > > > > > I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please > > > don't > > > > > > pretend they are a political statement. > > > > > > I think Dr. Seuss was a genius. I'm neither angry nor > > disenfranchised, > > > > > > no matter > > > > > > how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to > believe > > > > > > otherwise. I believe if she has her lips on your d--k, it is sex, > > and > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > sex for both of you. This even applies when she is a fat pig with > > self > > > > > > esteem > > > > > > issues, and you are President of the United States. > > > > > > It means , dumbass. If > > > > > > that makes me a bad American, then yes, I'm a bad American. > > > > > > You will get NO apology from me for it. If you too are a bad > > American > > > > > > please forward this to everyone you know. We need our country > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** This email has been scanned for viruses *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I Am Your Worst Nightmare. I am a BAD American. > > > > > > I like big cars, big tits, and big cigars. > > > > > > I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some > > > > > > mid-level governmental functionary democrat with a bad comb-over > who > > > > wants > > > > > > to give it away to crack addicts squirting out babies. > > > > > > China approaches our plane in international waters with fighter > > jets, > > > > > > crashes into it forcing us into an emergency landing, seizes our > > plane > > > > > > and > > > > > > holds our crewmen captive and then demands an apology......here's > > your > > > > > > apology China.....F--K YOU! > > > > > > I'm not in touch with my feelings and I like it that way, dammit. > > > > > > I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne, > Ice-T > > > > > > or Marilyn Manson sang. > > > > > > I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer. > > > > > > I believe it's called the Boy Scouts for a reason. > > > > > > Japan uses a sneak attack on us during World War II and wreaks > havoc > > > > > > on Pearl Harbor which forces the U.S. into the war. Then we > recently > > > > > > apologized to Japan for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima which > helped > > to > > > > > > end > > > > > > the war. Here's an amendment to that apology......F--K YOU TOO! > > > > > > I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. > > > > > > I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. > > > > > > I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you'd better do it > > in > > > > > > English. > > > > > > I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for > > > unpopular > > > > > > opinions or actions. > > > > > > I think Oprah is a big fat pig. > > > > > > I think fireworks should be legal on the 4th of July. > > > > > > I think that being a student doesn't give you any more > enlightenment > > > > > > than working at Blockbuster. In fact, if your parents are footing > > the > > > > > > bill to put your pansy ass through 4-7 years of college, you > haven't > > > > > > begun to be enlightened. > > > > > > I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite > or > > > > > > fat-free on the package. > > > > > > Hillary Clinton is a carpet-munching lesbian. > > > > > > My heroes are John Wayne, the Simpsons, and whoever canceled Dr. > > > Quinn, > > > > > > Medicine Woman. > > > > > > I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor. > > > > > > I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about > it. > > > > > > I think global warming is a big lie. Where are all those experts > > now, > > > > > > when I am freezing my ass through a > > > > > > long winter? > > > > > > I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I didn't wander forty > > years > > > in > > > > > > the desert after getting chased out of Egypt, I haven't > > > > > > burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither > have > > > you, > > > > > > so shut-the-f--k-up already. > > > > > > I want to know which church is it exactly where the Rev. Jessie > > > Jackson > > > > > > preaches. And where does he get his money. And why is he always > part > > > of > > > > > > the problem and not the solution. > > > > > > I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry ass if > you're > > > > > > running from them. I also think they have the right to pull your > ass > > > > > > over if you are breaking the law, regardless of what color you > are. > > > > > > I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't > > want > > > > > > you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the > > > > > > world for the next four years. > > > > > > I worry about dying before I get even. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate those bastards standing in the intersections trying to sell > > me > > > > > > crap or trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their cause. > > > These > > > > > > people should be targets. I think if you are in the passing lane, > > and > > > > > > not passing, your license should be revoked, and you should be > > forced > > > to > > > > > > ride the bus until you promise to never delay the rest of us > again. > > > > > > I think beef jerky could quite possibly be the perfect food. > > > > > > I enjoy watching high speed pursuits, the more damage the better. > > > > > > I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it > takes > > > two > > > > > > parents. > > > > > > I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please > > > don't > > > > > > pretend they are a political statement. > > > > > > I think Dr. Seuss was a genius. I'm neither angry nor > > disenfranchised, > > > > > > no matter > > > > > > how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to > believe > > > > > > otherwise. I believe if she has her lips on your d--k, it is sex, > > and > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > sex for both of you. This even applies when she is a fat pig with > > self > > > > > > esteem > > > > > > issues, and you are President of the United States. > > > > > > It means , dumbass. If > > > > > > that makes me a bad American, then yes, I'm a bad American. > > > > > > You will get NO apology from me for it. If you too are a bad > > American > > > > > > please forward this to everyone you know. We need our country > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** This email has been scanned for viruses *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I Am Your Worst Nightmare. I am a BAD American. > > > > > > I like big cars, big tits, and big cigars. > > > > > > I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some > > > > > > mid-level governmental functionary democrat with a bad comb-over > who > > > > wants > > > > > > to give it away to crack addicts squirting out babies. > > > > > > China approaches our plane in international waters with fighter > > jets, > > > > > > crashes into it forcing us into an emergency landing, seizes our > > plane > > > > > > and > > > > > > holds our crewmen captive and then demands an apology......here's > > your > > > > > > apology China.....F--K YOU! > > > > > > I'm not in touch with my feelings and I like it that way, dammit. > > > > > > I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne, > Ice-T > > > > > > or Marilyn Manson sang. > > > > > > I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer. > > > > > > I believe it's called the Boy Scouts for a reason. > > > > > > Japan uses a sneak attack on us during World War II and wreaks > havoc > > > > > > on Pearl Harbor which forces the U.S. into the war. Then we > recently > > > > > > apologized to Japan for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima which > helped > > to > > > > > > end > > > > > > the war. Here's an amendment to that apology......F--K YOU TOO! > > > > > > I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. > > > > > > I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. > > > > > > I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you'd better do it > > in > > > > > > English. > > > > > > I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for > > > unpopular > > > > > > opinions or actions. > > > > > > I think Oprah is a big fat pig. > > > > > > I think fireworks should be legal on the 4th of July. > > > > > > I think that being a student doesn't give you any more > enlightenment > > > > > > than working at Blockbuster. In fact, if your parents are footing > > the > > > > > > bill to put your pansy ass through 4-7 years of college, you > haven't > > > > > > begun to be enlightened. > > > > > > I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite > or > > > > > > fat-free on the package. > > > > > > Hillary Clinton is a carpet-munching lesbian. > > > > > > My heroes are John Wayne, the Simpsons, and whoever canceled Dr. > > > Quinn, > > > > > > Medicine Woman. > > > > > > I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor. > > > > > > I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about > it. > > > > > > I think global warming is a big lie. Where are all those experts > > now, > > > > > > when I am freezing my ass through a > > > > > > long winter? > > > > > > I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I didn't wander forty > > years > > > in > > > > > > the desert after getting chased out of Egypt, I haven't > > > > > > burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither > have > > > you, > > > > > > so shut-the-f--k-up already. > > > > > > I want to know which church is it exactly where the Rev. Jessie > > > Jackson > > > > > > preaches. And where does he get his money. And why is he always > part > > > of > > > > > > the problem and not the solution. > > > > > > I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry ass if > you're > > > > > > running from them. I also think they have the right to pull your > ass > > > > > > over if you are breaking the law, regardless of what color you > are. > > > > > > I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't > > want > > > > > > you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the > > > > > > world for the next four years. > > > > > > I worry about dying before I get even. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate those bastards standing in the intersections trying to sell > > me > > > > > > crap or trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their cause. > > > These > > > > > > people should be targets. I think if you are in the passing lane, > > and > > > > > > not passing, your license should be revoked, and you should be > > forced > > > to > > > > > > ride the bus until you promise to never delay the rest of us > again. > > > > > > I think beef jerky could quite possibly be the perfect food. > > > > > > I enjoy watching high speed pursuits, the more damage the better. > > > > > > I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it > takes > > > two > > > > > > parents. > > > > > > I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please > > > don't > > > > > > pretend they are a political statement. > > > > > > I think Dr. Seuss was a genius. I'm neither angry nor > > disenfranchised, > > > > > > no matter > > > > > > how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to > believe > > > > > > otherwise. I believe if she has her lips on your d--k, it is sex, > > and > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > sex for both of you. This even applies when she is a fat pig with > > self > > > > > > esteem > > > > > > issues, and you are President of the United States. > > > > > > It means , dumbass. If > > > > > > that makes me a bad American, then yes, I'm a bad American. > > > > > > You will get NO apology from me for it. If you too are a bad > > American > > > > > > please forward this to everyone you know. We need our country > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** This email has been scanned for viruses *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I Am Your Worst Nightmare. I am a BAD American. > > > > > > I like big cars, big tits, and big cigars. > > > > > > I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some > > > > > > mid-level governmental functionary democrat with a bad comb-over > who > > > > wants > > > > > > to give it away to crack addicts squirting out babies. > > > > > > China approaches our plane in international waters with fighter > > jets, > > > > > > crashes into it forcing us into an emergency landing, seizes our > > plane > > > > > > and > > > > > > holds our crewmen captive and then demands an apology......here's > > your > > > > > > apology China.....F--K YOU! > > > > > > I'm not in touch with my feelings and I like it that way, dammit. > > > > > > I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne, > Ice-T > > > > > > or Marilyn Manson sang. > > > > > > I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer. > > > > > > I believe it's called the Boy Scouts for a reason. > > > > > > Japan uses a sneak attack on us during World War II and wreaks > havoc > > > > > > on Pearl Harbor which forces the U.S. into the war. Then we > recently > > > > > > apologized to Japan for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima which > helped > > to > > > > > > end > > > > > > the war. Here's an amendment to that apology......F--K YOU TOO! > > > > > > I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. > > > > > > I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. > > > > > > I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you'd better do it > > in > > > > > > English. > > > > > > I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for > > > unpopular > > > > > > opinions or actions. > > > > > > I think Oprah is a big fat pig. > > > > > > I think fireworks should be legal on the 4th of July. > > > > > > I think that being a student doesn't give you any more > enlightenment > > > > > > than working at Blockbuster. In fact, if your parents are footing > > the > > > > > > bill to put your pansy ass through 4-7 years of college, you > haven't > > > > > > begun to be enlightened. > > > > > > I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite > or > > > > > > fat-free on the package. > > > > > > Hillary Clinton is a carpet-munching lesbian. > > > > > > My heroes are John Wayne, the Simpsons, and whoever canceled Dr. > > > Quinn, > > > > > > Medicine Woman. > > > > > > I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor. > > > > > > I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about > it. > > > > > > I think global warming is a big lie. Where are all those experts > > now, > > > > > > when I am freezing my ass through a > > > > > > long winter? > > > > > > I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I didn't wander forty > > years > > > in > > > > > > the desert after getting chased out of Egypt, I haven't > > > > > > burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither > have > > > you, > > > > > > so shut-the-f--k-up already. > > > > > > I want to know which church is it exactly where the Rev. Jessie > > > Jackson > > > > > > preaches. And where does he get his money. And why is he always > part > > > of > > > > > > the problem and not the solution. > > > > > > I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry ass if > you're > > > > > > running from them. I also think they have the right to pull your > ass > > > > > > over if you are breaking the law, regardless of what color you > are. > > > > > > I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't > > want > > > > > > you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the > > > > > > world for the next four years. > > > > > > I worry about dying before I get even. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate those bastards standing in the intersections trying to sell > > me > > > > > > crap or trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their cause. > > > These > > > > > > people should be targets. I think if you are in the passing lane, > > and > > > > > > not passing, your license should be revoked, and you should be > > forced > > > to > > > > > > ride the bus until you promise to never delay the rest of us > again. > > > > > > I think beef jerky could quite possibly be the perfect food. > > > > > > I enjoy watching high speed pursuits, the more damage the better. > > > > > > I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it > takes > > > two > > > > > > parents. > > > > > > I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please > > > don't > > > > > > pretend they are a political statement. > > > > > > I think Dr. Seuss was a genius. I'm neither angry nor > > disenfranchised, > > > > > > no matter > > > > > > how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to > believe > > > > > > otherwise. I believe if she has her lips on your d--k, it is sex, > > and > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > sex for both of you. This even applies when she is a fat pig with > > self > > > > > > esteem > > > > > > issues, and you are President of the United States. > > > > > > It means , dumbass. If > > > > > > that makes me a bad American, then yes, I'm a bad American. > > > > > > You will get NO apology from me for it. If you too are a bad > > American > > > > > > please forward this to everyone you know. We need our country > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** This email has been scanned for viruses *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I Am Your Worst Nightmare. I am a BAD American. > > > > > > I like big cars, big tits, and big cigars. > > > > > > I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some > > > > > > mid-level governmental functionary democrat with a bad comb-over > who > > > > wants > > > > > > to give it away to crack addicts squirting out babies. > > > > > > China approaches our plane in international waters with fighter > > jets, > > > > > > crashes into it forcing us into an emergency landing, seizes our > > plane > > > > > > and > > > > > > holds our crewmen captive and then demands an apology......here's > > your > > > > > > apology China.....F--K YOU! > > > > > > I'm not in touch with my feelings and I like it that way, dammit. > > > > > > I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne, > Ice-T > > > > > > or Marilyn Manson sang. > > > > > > I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer. > > > > > > I believe it's called the Boy Scouts for a reason. > > > > > > Japan uses a sneak attack on us during World War II and wreaks > havoc > > > > > > on Pearl Harbor which forces the U.S. into the war. Then we > recently > > > > > > apologized to Japan for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima which > helped > > to > > > > > > end > > > > > > the war. Here's an amendment to that apology......F--K YOU TOO! > > > > > > I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. > > > > > > I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. > > > > > > I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you'd better do it > > in > > > > > > English. > > > > > > I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for > > > unpopular > > > > > > opinions or actions. > > > > > > I think Oprah is a big fat pig. > > > > > > I think fireworks should be legal on the 4th of July. > > > > > > I think that being a student doesn't give you any more > enlightenment > > > > > > than working at Blockbuster. In fact, if your parents are footing > > the > > > > > > bill to put your pansy ass through 4-7 years of college, you > haven't > > > > > > begun to be enlightened. > > > > > > I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite > or > > > > > > fat-free on the package. > > > > > > Hillary Clinton is a carpet-munching lesbian. > > > > > > My heroes are John Wayne, the Simpsons, and whoever canceled Dr. > > > Quinn, > > > > > > Medicine Woman. > > > > > > I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor. > > > > > > I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about > it. > > > > > > I think global warming is a big lie. Where are all those experts > > now, > > > > > > when I am freezing my ass through a > > > > > > long winter? > > > > > > I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I didn't wander forty > > years > > > in > > > > > > the desert after getting chased out of Egypt, I haven't > > > > > > burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither > have > > > you, > > > > > > so shut-the-f--k-up already. > > > > > > I want to know which church is it exactly where the Rev. Jessie > > > Jackson > > > > > > preaches. And where does he get his money. And why is he always > part > > > of > > > > > > the problem and not the solution. > > > > > > I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry ass if > you're > > > > > > running from them. I also think they have the right to pull your > ass > > > > > > over if you are breaking the law, regardless of what color you > are. > > > > > > I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't > > want > > > > > > you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the > > > > > > world for the next four years. > > > > > > I worry about dying before I get even. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate those bastards standing in the intersections trying to sell > > me > > > > > > crap or trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their cause. > > > These > > > > > > people should be targets. I think if you are in the passing lane, > > and > > > > > > not passing, your license should be revoked, and you should be > > forced > > > to > > > > > > ride the bus until you promise to never delay the rest of us > again. > > > > > > I think beef jerky could quite possibly be the perfect food. > > > > > > I enjoy watching high speed pursuits, the more damage the better. > > > > > > I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it > takes > > > two > > > > > > parents. > > > > > > I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please > > > don't > > > > > > pretend they are a political statement. > > > > > > I think Dr. Seuss was a genius. I'm neither angry nor > > disenfranchised, > > > > > > no matter > > > > > > how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to > believe > > > > > > otherwise. I believe if she has her lips on your d--k, it is sex, > > and > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > sex for both of you. This even applies when she is a fat pig with > > self > > > > > > esteem > > > > > > issues, and you are President of the United States. > > > > > > It means , dumbass. If > > > > > > that makes me a bad American, then yes, I'm a bad American. > > > > > > You will get NO apology from me for it. If you too are a bad > > American > > > > > > please forward this to everyone you know. We need our country > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** This email has been scanned for viruses *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I Am Your Worst Nightmare. I am a BAD American. > > > > > > I like big cars, big tits, and big cigars. > > > > > > I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some > > > > > > mid-level governmental functionary democrat with a bad comb-over > who > > > > wants > > > > > > to give it away to crack addicts squirting out babies. > > > > > > China approaches our plane in international waters with fighter > > jets, > > > > > > crashes into it forcing us into an emergency landing, seizes our > > plane > > > > > > and > > > > > > holds our crewmen captive and then demands an apology......here's > > your > > > > > > apology China.....F--K YOU! > > > > > > I'm not in touch with my feelings and I like it that way, dammit. > > > > > > I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne, > Ice-T > > > > > > or Marilyn Manson sang. > > > > > > I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer. > > > > > > I believe it's called the Boy Scouts for a reason. > > > > > > Japan uses a sneak attack on us during World War II and wreaks > havoc > > > > > > on Pearl Harbor which forces the U.S. into the war. Then we > recently > > > > > > apologized to Japan for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima which > helped > > to > > > > > > end > > > > > > the war. Here's an amendment to that apology......F--K YOU TOO! > > > > > > I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. > > > > > > I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. > > > > > > I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you'd better do it > > in > > > > > > English. > > > > > > I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for > > > unpopular > > > > > > opinions or actions. > > > > > > I think Oprah is a big fat pig. > > > > > > I think fireworks should be legal on the 4th of July. > > > > > > I think that being a student doesn't give you any more > enlightenment > > > > > > than working at Blockbuster. In fact, if your parents are footing > > the > > > > > > bill to put your pansy ass through 4-7 years of college, you > haven't > > > > > > begun to be enlightened. > > > > > > I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite > or > > > > > > fat-free on the package. > > > > > > Hillary Clinton is a carpet-munching lesbian. > > > > > > My heroes are John Wayne, the Simpsons, and whoever canceled Dr. > > > Quinn, > > > > > > Medicine Woman. > > > > > > I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor. > > > > > > I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about > it. > > > > > > I think global warming is a big lie. Where are all those experts > > now, > > > > > > when I am freezing my ass through a > > > > > > long winter? > > > > > > I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I didn't wander forty > > years > > > in > > > > > > the desert after getting chased out of Egypt, I haven't > > > > > > burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither > have > > > you, > > > > > > so shut-the-f--k-up already. > > > > > > I want to know which church is it exactly where the Rev. Jessie > > > Jackson > > > > > > preaches. And where does he get his money. And why is he always > part > > > of > > > > > > the problem and not the solution. > > > > > > I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry ass if > you're > > > > > > running from them. I also think they have the right to pull your > ass > > > > > > over if you are breaking the law, regardless of what color you > are. > > > > > > I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't > > want > > > > > > you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the > > > > > > world for the next four years. > > > > > > I worry about dying before I get even. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate those bastards standing in the intersections trying to sell > > me > > > > > > crap or trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their cause. > > > These > > > > > > people should be targets. I think if you are in the passing lane, > > and > > > > > > not passing, your license should be revoked, and you should be > > forced > > > to > > > > > > ride the bus until you promise to never delay the rest of us > again. > > > > > > I think beef jerky could quite possibly be the perfect food. > > > > > > I enjoy watching high speed pursuits, the more damage the better. > > > > > > I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it > takes > > > two > > > > > > parents. > > > > > > I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please > > > don't > > > > > > pretend they are a political statement. > > > > > > I think Dr. Seuss was a genius. I'm neither angry nor > > disenfranchised, > > > > > > no matter > > > > > > how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to > believe > > > > > > otherwise. I believe if she has her lips on your d--k, it is sex, > > and > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > sex for both of you. This even applies when she is a fat pig with > > self > > > > > > esteem > > > > > > issues, and you are President of the United States. > > > > > > It means , dumbass. If > > > > > > that makes me a bad American, then yes, I'm a bad American. > > > > > > You will get NO apology from me for it. If you too are a bad > > American > > > > > > please forward this to everyone you know. We need our country > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** This email has been scanned for viruses *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 08:17 AM

I have no idea why this repeated the text.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Naemanson
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 12:15 PM

Well this pretty much ate up that lunch break.

'Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?

From: Naemanson

Date: 14-Apr-01 - 08:47 AM

MAV wrote: "As far as we (American conservatives)are concerned, fascist, Marxist, Stalinist, whatever, all authoritarianism is the domain of the left."

We don't seem to be communicating. The post you referred me to is mine and while I do see the phrase "American conservatives" in it the movements you cited (fascist, Marxist, Stalinist) in that same sentence are European in origin. That is why I had to take the tack I did.

Besides, conservatism is not restricted to the USA. There are conservative movements all over the world and they all seem to have the same goals, i.e., limitation of personal freedom; acquisition of material wealth; a distrust of the media; a basic disinterest in the welfare of poor people; and a love of the military.

You say you are a libertarian flavored conservative. What I know of the libertarian ideals is limited to the interview and call in program with Maine's libertarian candidate last year. What I heard made me believe that things could be much worse than a conservative government. Maybe you would like to enlighten me as to how we would run a huge, rich country like this under libertarian principles and keep from having disease and starvation in the streets.

You are concerned that the "status quo at the moment is borderline socialism with the government attempting to become the health care industry, power producing industry, retirement security industry, education industry (mission accomplished)etc." This strikes me as another instance of either misunderstanding the goals of these programs or a disregard of history. As I said before, the social history of the US during the second half of the 19th Century and during the Great depression has shown what happens to the people when the Government takes a hands-off approach. Another example is what happened in England during the Industrial Revolution. I'm sure you don't want to see that happen again.

So what is the solution to such a dilemma. You don't want the Government to handle things and there isn't anyone else with the resources to do it. What do we do? People need health care, they need to eat, we all need energy at affordable prices, and we all need an education.

One proposal has been to privatize. I guess the theory is that the bureaucracy is expensive, wasteful, and slow. I can't argue that. But a private industry has two things that never seems to be considered. They have their own overhead expenses and they need to make a profit. I have no problem with making a profit but I believe the overhead and profit could equal the government waste. If there will be no change why change things?

And, believe it or not, private industry has their own bureaucracy and we would have to deal with. Who has not had to ask for something from a large company? When they want to be paid it is easy to contact a responsible representative. If you need them to do something for you it can be frustrating and difficult in the extreme. Trust me, I have worked with some of the largest construction firms in the US and they are sometimes as bad as the US Government that I work for.

Concerning Iran-Contra, the U.S. Congress passed the Boland Amendment in 1984 specifically outlawing the funding of the so-called Contras by any government agency. While the President has the authority to conduct foreign policy he also has to obey the law of the land and the Boland Amendment was made part of that law. The authority to conduct foreign policy does not abstract him from his responsibility to conform to the will of the people. Remember, he works for us. It didn't help that Bush Sr. collaborated in the original scandal and then engineered the cover up by pardoning the players. Those conservatives with heartburn about Clinton's pardons need to remember this one.

Oh, and two can play the game of quoting and interpreting lines from famous documents. Here is the Preamble to the Constitution:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Let's take a look at what it says The Constitution is to do.

"…form a more perfect Union…"
After The Revolution there were many instances of conflict between the states, each asserting their states rights. The Constitution was intended to end those conflicts.

"…establish Justice…"
Pretty self explanatory except that it was not intended to usurp the justice system within each state. It was intended to provide a framework for justice between the states.

"…insure domestic Tranquility…"
Once again there was a matter of conflict between the states. In one or two instance it nearly came to blows and in one instance, Shay's Rebellion, there were deaths and a true fear of warfare.

"…provide for the common defence…"
Also self explanatory. We need an army and a navy to defend ALL of the states. The militias continued unaffected.

"…promote the general Welfare…"
This could be the one on which you and I differ the most. The word welfare is defined as health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. To my mind that pretty much requires the US Government to become the center of the social programs so hated by conservatives.

"…and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity…"
And this is the "granting" phrase. As I said before, I had nothing to do with the creation of this document or this nation. I am eternally grateful and proud to be part of it but I believe we earn the rights which are granted to us. You and I may be at odds over a mere matter of semantics. I think the idea of the people giving permission to the Government to govern them is a principle of the Libertarians isn't it? I'd like to know more about it before I go any further on this part of the discussion.

I think that pretty much covers it. I find this discussion stimulating and enjoyable. Thanks for meeting me in a like mind.

Brett

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 12:19 PM

Continued HERE.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 02:26 PM

kendal, After reading that delicious piece of work (absent the repetitions) I copied off your submission, made minor corrections, and edited it into paragraphs (hard with a stream of conscious style of writing like yours). I truely believe this is a gold mine of intellectual Kantian synthesis, and like an Artic icebreaker, forces those who infuse experience with intellect, onto one ice flow or another, as you chug by. My problem is what to do with this, as it subverts most of the intellectual sophisty that passes for wisdom in our country. Like Galileo, the Church of PC will want your retraction, or your body on the rack of relative muliculturalism. But in the ether of the net, a bright star glows, that neither the melanin-impaired, nor the hetrophobic, can extinquish. "Ab uno, disce omnes"

I light my candle from your torch, and will try to do honor to your work...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Rick
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 07:57 PM

I never thought this was the big crisis all the punditcrats, et.al. thought it was. The big money invested in both Bush and China would never let it get that far.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: Troll
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 11:34 PM

Kendall. That was all right.That pretty well says it all.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:14 AM

Wow! Some of you guys sure are wordy.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: kendall
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 07:51 AM

That was not my work. Kat told me how to cut and paste, and, thought I'd try it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: sledge
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 08:35 AM

These chinese imports that everyone is talking about back up the thread, are they the part of the "more and more imports that are coming from abroad".

:)

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:38 AM

THIS THREAD IS CLOSED. Please add additional comments HERE

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:57 PM

Claymore sez:

> When asked to choose the legal strategy that will ultimately determine the election, he picks one that only one lawyer out of some twenty recommends; the unconstitutionality of the recount, and lo and behold, it was the winner.

Not for any particular _legal_ reason. The outcome was determined; Dubya would be the president. They just didn't get enough people to sign on to the hokey 3 U.S.C. 5 or Article II grounds, so they had to manufacture an equal rights violation. An "equal rights" violation that was sufficient to necessitate stopping the recounts, which in fact _caused_ that exact equal rights violation: that identical votes cast in different counties were treated differently (manual counts were done in some counties, including some fourteen that had been predominantly for Dubya, resulting in a net pickup of some 180 votes for Dubya in the fourteen). The order stopping the _statewide_ counting ensured that some counties would count machine-unreadable ballots, while others would not.

> Al Gore on the other hand is depicted as swinging back and forth . . .

Only to those that _want_ to see him that way.

> . . . while becoming convinced that the Hispanic politicians in Miami are out to get him, and ends up calling them traitors.

Huh? What drugs are _you_ on?

Cheers,

-- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: BS: Bush--A little credit please?
From: GUEST,fe
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:48 AM

he appears to be doing grand job at moment his internatinoal statesmanship not been parralleled since WWII