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Origins: My Love's in Germanie (Silly Wizard)

Related threads:
Lyr/Chords Req: My Love's in Germany (16)
Lyr Req: My Love's in Germanie (6)


kai 12 Apr 01 - 05:38 AM
Willie-O 12 Apr 01 - 07:41 AM
GUEST,Dita (at work) 12 Apr 01 - 07:50 AM
Willie-O 12 Apr 01 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,#1 12 Apr 01 - 02:56 PM
Dita 12 Apr 01 - 05:41 PM
Malcolm Douglas 12 Apr 01 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 12 Apr 01 - 11:43 PM
kai 13 Apr 01 - 03:49 AM
Bernard 13 Apr 01 - 07:58 AM
GUEST,Bruce O. 13 Apr 01 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,Bruce O. 13 Apr 01 - 10:41 AM
GUEST,captain@davidkidd.net 14 Jan 04 - 05:18 PM
Snuffy 14 Jan 04 - 07:45 PM
davidkiddnet 24 May 04 - 06:24 PM
davidkiddnet 24 May 04 - 06:37 PM
davidkiddnet 24 May 04 - 06:50 PM
Malcolm Douglas 24 May 04 - 07:40 PM
davidkiddnet 11 Jun 04 - 01:47 PM
davidkiddnet 11 Jun 04 - 05:39 PM
Malcolm Douglas 11 Jun 04 - 09:08 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Jun 04 - 01:41 PM
davidkiddnet 15 Jun 04 - 06:10 PM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Jun 04 - 06:22 PM
davidkiddnet 18 Jun 04 - 06:08 PM
Malcolm Douglas 18 Jun 04 - 07:09 PM
davidkiddnet 25 Jun 04 - 07:21 PM
Malcolm Douglas 25 Jun 04 - 08:16 PM
GUEST 14 Jul 04 - 02:14 PM
GUEST 14 Jul 04 - 02:35 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 04 - 06:19 PM
davidkiddnet 23 Nov 05 - 08:41 PM
GUEST 24 Nov 05 - 06:54 AM
davidkiddnet 07 Aug 08 - 11:26 PM
Jim Dixon 15 Dec 08 - 02:05 AM
Betsy 18 Mar 10 - 08:29 PM
JohnB 19 Mar 10 - 11:20 AM
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Subject: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: kai
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 05:38 AM

Hello.

What is the name of Silly WIzard album where song "My love's in Germanie" exists? Recently I got a CD without any booklet and cover and was told that it's Silly Wizard first album. I can't find tracklist and even the name in the biggest CD databases of Internet. The only song I know there is mentioned above? Is it a real album or just a compilation of unknown origin or bootleg?

//kai


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 07:41 AM

You sure it's not actually the Tannahill Weaver's first album? It has that song on it, the first track on the CD starts with a thunderstorm sound and is "Are Ye Sleepin Maggie?" It doesn't have pipes. Or accordions, which would be the biggest difference between the twa.

Willie-O
A fan of both (but not an authority on the SW discography)


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: GUEST,Dita (at work)
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 07:50 AM

Kai,this is a genuine LP, it is indeed Silly Wizard's first LP. It was released on XTRA records, a cut price Transadlantic Records label.
The band contains all the usual suspects Andy, Johnny, Mame, Gordon etc BUT Freeland Barbour plays the box not Phil Cunningham.
From memory the sound is very muddy, and like all XTRA records poorly pressed. The band were unhappy with the release and soon moved to Highway Records, Freeland left and was replaced by Johnny's brother Phil. I think it was eventually re-released on that label.
I will post a track list for you when I get home.
love, john.


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 11:09 AM

Well, it might not be the one you're seeking, but the first Tannies album is actually very good in both performance and sound quality. And a little less over-revved than their subsequent work.

W-O


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 02:56 PM

It isn't by Silly Wizard, it's by Hector MacNeil.


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: Dita
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 05:41 PM

Silly Wizard (Xtra 1158) 1976

Side 1
1. Pibroch
2. Jenny Gray's Whiskey/The Ale is Dear
3. Carlisle Wall
4. My Loves in Germany
5. Election Jig

Side 2
1. The Heron Election Ballad No.4
2. Atholl Braes/The Drunken Piper
3. The Shearing
4. The Fairy Dance
5. Land of the Leal

Line up - Johnny Cunningham, Gordon Jones, Bob Thomas, Andy Stewart, Alistair Donaldson and Freeland Barbour.
Recorded atMaritime Studio, Edinburgh. Engineer - Dick Ollett.

That's about all I can tell you Kai. It is a genuine album, their 1st.
love, john.


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:32 PM

Hector MacNeil wrote a set of words (Songs of the North, 1895), but they were an expansion of a song already well-known in Orkney tradition.  The traditional tune belongs to a widespread family which includes Admiral Benbow, Captain Kidd and Sam Hall, amongst others.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 11:43 PM

Hector MacNeil's song is of 1794 [See Stenhouse's notes in 'Illustrations to SMM, and reprint the song]

For "Ye Jacobite's by name" and "Admiral Benbow" as ABCs see S1 on my website. See "Sound a Charge" in the broadside ballad tunes there for an ABC of the "Put in All" early variant (in dance collection from 1708). There was a long discussion of the tune and it's variants on the Ballad_L list about 2 years ago (mostly from me). I'll see if I can find it in my old mail files.


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: kai
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 03:49 AM

Thank you all people.I'm happy now. :-)


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 07:58 AM

Just for the record, Vin Garbutt used to do it - I think it was on his 'Tin Whistle Pest' album, but I'm too idle to go and look...


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:27 AM

Ed Cray's 1611 prototype for "Captain Kidd" Click

More on the "Captain Kidd" tune in the Ballad-L Archives (find with Google), Feb., 1999. See Wondrous Love tune topic, but it's screwed up. Several posts are missing including Ed Cray's where he noted the tune in the click-on above, and mine.


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:41 AM

[My post to Ballad-L, Feb. 16,, 1999]

Exactly what tune was known as "Captain Kidd" in the 18th century has been a little fuzzy, as the tune was never known to have been printed under that title, and even circumstantial evidence is rather meager. However, Ed Cray in the 'Erotic Muse', 2nd edit., p. 46, 1992, and James Dick, 'Songs of Robert Burns', p. 464, 1903, have pointed out that the tune for Burns' "Ye Jacobites by Name" in 'The Scots Musical Museum', #371, 1792, is a version of the "Put in All" tune in 'Pills to Purge Melancholy', VI, p. 251, 1719-20. C. M. Simpson, 'The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music', #438, 1966, printed the 'Pills' tune and pointed out that it appeared earlier as "Put in All" in 'The Dancing Master', II, 2nd ed, 1714 (and it's in later dance colecttions). I've put an ABC of an earlier version of "Put in All" from Walsh, Hare and Randall's 'Twenty four new Country Dances for the year 1708' on my website as B438 (under Simpson's tentative title, "Sound a Charge").

Bertrand Bronson, in 'The Ballad as Song' printed a version of the SMM tune from a song, "Germany Thomas", commencing "Oh, my loves in Germany, Send him home, send him home". That's a traditional version of a song by Hector MacNeill, published in 1794, and according to Wm. Stenhouse, who quoted the song in 'Illustrations to SMM', it's to the tune in SMM.

Now how do we connect this to "Captain Kidd"? Burns' song "Ye Jacobites by Name" is not entirely original. He used the opening verse of an older song, and, obviously, its tune. The older song, 1746, is "An Excellent new Song on the Jacobites, and the Oppression of the Rebels", and is "To the Tune of, Captain Kid [sic]". This song seems to have been unreprinted, but it's on my website in the Scarce Songs 1 file.

So we have a little 18th century evidence for identifying the "Captain Kidd" tune with "Put in All".

"Jack the Chimney Sweep" (Jack Hall) was undoubtably sung to the same tune, but the 19th century Pitts edition in the Madden Collection (Roud #369) has no tune direction (or, at least, Steve Roud's Index cites where such should appear). The "Coming Down" tune direction for "Captain Kidd" (ZN1837) was undoubtably derived from this ballad. In the same meter as other songs here noted is a song by Thomas D'Urfey in 'Pills', II, p. 182, 1719- 20, "The Moderators Dream", commencing "When Sol to Thetis Pool". This was to 'a pretty Tune, call'd Chimney Sweep.' No directions are given there as to where the music might be found. I have searched through many songbooks and collections of single sheet songs with music for some copy of this song that gave music or an alternative tune direction, but all to no avail.

There is still no solid evidence for connection of "Put in All" with the 17th century tune or tunes with the same meter, "Sound a Charge, Sound a Charge", "Touch and Go, Touch and Go", and "Royal News, Royal News". "Sound a Charge" seems to make its first appearance as the tune for "A Spiritual Song touching doing away of Sin", in a book of 1654, item #572 in Joseph Frank's 'Hobbled Pegasus', 1968.

Simpson printed as #439, a tune from a manuscript of 1642 for a song commencing "farwell to ye parliament, with a Hey, with a Hey", stating that the tune was clearly related to "Put in All". John Ward, however, in JAMS XX, p. 75, 1967, pointed out that Simpson's tune #439 is just another variant of the "Duke of Norfolk"/ "John Anderson, My Jo" tune. The ballad Simpson cited, "Farewell to the parliament" is in 'Rump Songs', I, p. 91, 1662, without tune direction. It's also found in Bodleian MS Rawl. poet. 71, with the tune direction "the Beggar laid him down to sleepe", a tune direction or line from a song that I have not seen elsewhere, so this seems to lead nowhere.

Neither Simpson, nor Ward, make any comments on Ravenscroft's tune for "Remember, O thou man", and its tune was not cited for any broadside ballads that I know of.


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: GUEST,captain@davidkidd.net
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 05:18 PM

You mention the fascinating tunes that I'm looking for are on your website, but I can't find anywhere the address of your website.
What is it called?
I'm doing a web page on Captin Kidd because we share the same second name, and I used to live on a boat.
davidkidd.net/music
P.S. Browsing you messages I see you've travelled around. I moved to Portand OR USA, but I used to live in Oxford England from about 1980 til 1986. However not as a Gown but a Town. I went to Art College Edinburgh SCsotland, and worked in Oxford doing graphic design.


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: Snuffy
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 07:45 PM

Bruce Olson died in October 2003, but the website should still be there http://users.erols.com/olsonw/


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: davidkiddnet
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:24 PM

It's sad that I discovered Bruce Olson too late to speak to him, but he left the whole world a beautiful collection of what he loved. That's a lifetime achievement indeed.


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: davidkiddnet
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:37 PM

the lyrics for 'My Love's In Germanie' by Hector McNeil are at Henry's Songbook


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: davidkiddnet
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:50 PM

On 12 Apr 01 (see above) Malcolm Douglas said "Hector MacNeil wrote a set of words [in 1895] but they were an expansion of a song already well-known in Orkney tradition"

In his 1947 book "Pirate Laureate" William Bonner said that Anne Gilchrist, a scholar of English folk song, traced the tune back to Germany Thomas, an old Scottish ballad that goes "My Luve's in Germanie, send him hame send him hame"

By "old" Bonner meant before the Seventeenth century

Does anybody know where I can find the more ancient words?


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:40 PM

My comment 3 years ago was based a remark made by Bertrand Bronson in his essay, Samuel Hall's Family Tree (California Folklore Quarterly I, 1, 1942), reprinted in The Ballad As Song (University of California, 1969). Note that the date I mentioned was for the earliest published example that I had seen at that time, not for the original publication; which as Bruce pointed out was much earlier (1794).

Although authorship was claimed by Hector MacNiell (according to William Stenhouse), this has been disputed. Bronson adds -without comment- that Orkney tradition ascribes Germany Thomas to a Colonel Traill round about 1625; but that is anecdotal. It would be that claim, I expect, that Bonner quoted from Miss Gilchrist (did he give a reference? I don't have time just now to plough through the Journals of the Folk Song Society again). The earliest known Orkney example was printed in 1885, it would appear (Colonel D Balfour, Ancient Orkney Melodies).

Some material from Balfour is quoted at http://www.electricscotland.com/history/germany/germany_thomas.htm

Bear in mind, of course, that the story is anecdotal and is not necessarily true; local family tradition also, it seems, had it that Traill had written Ten Thousand Miles. Whether written in the form under discussion here by MacNiell or Traill (or neither of them) My Love's in Germanie / Germany Thomas was certainly based on an older piece; Bronson quotes a reference in The Complaynt of Scotland (c.1549) to a song beginning

My lufe is lyand seik, send hym ioy, send him ioy

but that line is all we have of it.


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: davidkiddnet
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 01:47 PM

Here's a different 1885 version of "Oh! my Love's in Germany"

Oh, my love's in Germany, Send him hame, send him hame,
Oh, my love's in Germany, Send him hame.
Oh, my love's in Germany,
Lang leagues O' land and sea
Frae Westrey and frae me, Send him hame, send him hame.
Oh, my love's in Germany, Send him hame.

Oh, weary fa' the war, Send him hame, send him hame,
That tysed my love sae rar, Send him hame.
Oh, were he hame again,
How blythe we'd be and rain,
But he's rar ayont the main, Send him hame, send him hame.
Oh, my love's in Germany, Send him hame.

Oh, wad some birdie say, Send him hame, send him hame,
To my sodger far away, Send him hame.
How lonely sighs his May,
Conntin' year and month and day,
For oh! her heart is wae, Send him hame, send him hame.
Oh, my love's in Germany, Send him hame.

from David Balfour's Collection of Orkney Melodies, Edinburgh: Ballantyne-Hanson, 1885.

source: Scottish German History by Wolfgang Schlick http://www.electricscotland.com/history/germany/germany_thomas.htm
In summary: The tradition is this song was originally composed 1630-36 by Colonel Thomas Traill, of HighLand farm, the Laird of Papa Westray. Orkney had a run of bad harvests 1623-36, so many enlisted with the King of Sweden, Gustavus Adolphus, in his recruiting drive for the Protestant side in the Thirty Years War. Countless Scots mercenaries, including eighty-four captains, fought 1630-48 for Sweden allied with East Germany and Austria versus the Catholic Hapsburg nations of Europe.


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: davidkiddnet
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 05:39 PM

X:CKLRX17v5
T:Germanie Thomas
M:4/4
L:1/8
A:Scotland
H:air based on earlier My lufe is lyand seik, send hym joy
B:The Complaynt of Scotland 1549
H:Germanie Thomas traditionally by Colonel Thomas Traill
H:Laird of Papa Westray, Orkney about his wife May Craigie
H:whilst fighting 1630-48 with Swedish, German and Austrian Protestants
H:against Catholic Hapsburg nations in The Thirty Years War
S:Colonel David Balfour
B:Ancient Orkney Melodies 1885 Ballantyne & Hanson, Edinburgh
S:Wolfgang Schlick
Z:transcribed by David Kidd 2004
P:score shows three treble parts and two bass. This is top part only.
K:C
EG |: A>c AG E2 DC | c2B A B2 c>B | A>c AG E>D EG |\
A3 z AB | c>B cd e2 dc | B>G Bc d2 cd |\
e>A A>G E2 DC | c2 Bc d 2cB | A>B AG E>D E^G :| A6 ||


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 09:08 PM

You're making an unwarranted assumption there. Although the metrical form is the same, so far as we can tell, it is the text that is based (and, since only one line is quoted in The Complaynt of Scotland, we cannot know how closely) on an earlier piece, which may or may not be that referred to in the Complaynt. There is no evidence that the tunes were necessarily even related to one another; Bronson is quite clear about this.


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 01:41 PM

for a minute I thought paul Daniels had bedded an anagram of Ms Greer

I remember that song, vin garbutt indeed did it - not a lot!


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: davidkiddnet
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 06:10 PM

Some criticize my "unwarranted assumption"
But I'm just an Artist - and that 's
What Artists are for - isn't it?

I pray for an Assumption by my belief.


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Subject: RE: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 06:22 PM

An observation rather than a criticism; and likely in part my fault for not being more specific in my earlier remarks. Nevertheless, it is my experience that artists, in particular, need to pay close attention to detail.

Your other, related thread (Mentra Gwen, neu Cwynfau y Wraig Weddw) suggests that you are making a serious study of the song/melody and its various ramifications, so it will do you no harm to ensure that your conclusions are as accurate as possible. If you have not so far done so, you should certainly consult the Bronson article. You will find it helpful.


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Subject: RE: Origins: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: davidkiddnet
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 06:08 PM

I'm sorry Malcolm, You're quite right about the ascriptions being only anecdotal. I just get a bit silly sometimes. The internet is already overflowing with crazy stuff you can't trust by silly people.
What I want, in fact, is not silly stuff but trustworthy dates.
SO
I went back to what started all this for me: W.H. Bonner's "Pirate Laureate" p.102 to revise what he wrote (he was professor of English at the University of Buffalo in 1947):
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

"Students of folk song now recognize the metrical pattern as a variant of a well-defined old Welsh ballad known as "Venture Gwen, or the Plaint of the Widow" (Mentra Gwen, neu Cwynfau y Wraig Weddw).(18)
........When the notes of "Captain Kidd" were first set down they were ascribed to "Nicholson"; but such ascriptions in the old song books are misleading, Professor George Pullen Jackson informs me, being usually the names merely of those who set notes and provided harmonic parts for the oral tunes. On the other hand, there is reason to think that "Captain Kidd" is very old. Miss Anne Gilchrist, a thorough student of English folk song, traces it back through an old Scottish ballad, "My Luve's in Germanie, send him hame, send him hame," to the sixteenth century.(19)"
___________
Footnote 18: Journal of Welsh Folklore Society (1930), III, 45.
See also Journal of Welsh Folklore Society II (1914-25), 122.

Footnote 19: G. P. Jackson, Down-East Spirituals (New York, 1943), 259—61. For further comment, see:
J. A. Lomax, American Ballads and Folk Songs (1935), xxxviii—xxxix.
Eckstorm and Smyth, Minstrelsy of Maine (1927), 247—49.
C. J. Finger, Frontier Ballads (1927), 29—32.
W. B. Whall, Sea Songs and Shanties (1920), ix.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
What I wondered was: did Anne Gilchrist trace it back to the sixteenth century in a detailed way? If so, where did she publish it? Because I want to put "C16th" on something too. It turns out that the footnotes 18 and 19 are a bit confused because 'Sian, west wales' tipped me off that a Miss A.G. Gilchrist wrote the following about 'Mentra Gwen' in the Journal of Welsh Folklore Society 1930), III, 45:
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

"This sounds to me like a Scottish tune. It belongs to a characteristic verse-metre, the (probably) earliest known example of which is suggested by a title in 'The Complaynt of Scotland,' 1549.'My lufe is Iyand seik, send him joy, send him joy.' This may have suggested Hector Macneill's: 'My luves in Germanie, Send him hame, send him hame.' There were also songs, of probably earlier date than the above, on Captain Kidd, Admiral Benbow, and the notorious criminal Sam (or Jack) Hall; and in the nineteenth century a revival hymn in 'Richard Weaver's Tune Book' 1861, was modelled upon the same stanza. All these tunes, together with the Welsh air, appear to be variants of the same original. 'Captain Kidd' and 'Sam Hall' are
the dying confessions of villains, and the revival hymn is obviously suggested by one of them. It begins: 'come ye that fear the Lord Unto me, unto me, etc.' A verse of 'Captain Kidd,' with a somewhat modernized American form of the tune, may be quoted from an American collection, 'Our Familiar Songs, and Those Who made Them' 1889 (see below). Captain Kidd was hanged in Execution Dock on the Thames, in 1701, and the ballad is probably contemporary.
- Miss A.G. Gilchrist"

:::::::::::::::::::::::::

Assuming that 'Miss A.G. Gilchrist' and 'Miss Anne Gilchrist' are the same person: could this paragraph be all that Bonner was referring to as "tracing it back...to the sixteenth century?" Is this paragraph in the Journal the full extent of her discourse? Or did she write a great thesis on it elsewhere that will give me full knowlege and the right to type "C16th" next to 'Germanie Thomas'? Could her thesis be in another of the books in footnote nineteen?
- Or is this as far as this trail goes?


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Subject: RE: Origins: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 07:09 PM

Anne Geddes Gilchrist. The 16th century reference is principally to the single line quoted in The Complaynt of Scotland, as I've said; about which we know no more than that it was in the characteristic metre. Miss Gilchrist further touched upon the subject in a paper, 'Sacred Parodies of Secular Folk Songs: A Study of the Gude and Godlie Ballates of the Wedderburn Brothers' (Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, vol III no 3, 1938, pp 157-182). There, she refers to a sacred song in the same metre, All My Lufe, Leif Me Not, printed (and presumably written by) the Wedderburn brothers in their book of 1567. The Complaynt of Scotland (1549), incidentally, is attributed to a man by the name of Vedderburn, and there may be a connection; but so far as I know that is not proven. She quotes one verse, which she sets to the Germanie Thomas tune from Balfour:

All my lufe leif me not,
Leif me not, leif me not,
All my lufe leif me not this myne alone
With ane burding on my back,
I may not beir it I am so waik,
Lufe, this burding fra me tak
Or ellis I am gone [I am gone,]
Lufe, this burding fra me tak or ellis I am gone.

The little that I have seen of the Godlie Ballates suggests that the rest of the lyric is likely to be long and turgid. At some point I will need to consult that book again (reprint of 1897) for something else, and will try to remember to copy the relevant pages. Meanwhile, you should consult the Gilchrist and Bronson articles.

I think that your references above should be to The Journal of the Welsh Folk Song (not Folklore) Society. I've provided a link to the second one in your other thread


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Subject: RE: Origins: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: davidkiddnet
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 07:21 PM

Thank you Malcolm for that rich treasure of information. I've plenty to work on now. With regards to my ABC of "Germanie Thomas" I will cut out all the Possibilities before I publish it and leave all romantic speculation to the reader. I'll just leave in the source as "Colonel David Balfour B:Ancient Orkney Melodies 1885 Ballantyne & Hanson, Edinburgh".
But could I leave in that the song MAY have been written about SOME Scot soldiering in the "The Thirty Years War" around 1630? Making it clear that I'm not claiming it was written AT that time, but could have been later. What other wars could he have been fighting in Germany before 1885? Do not Hector MacNeil's words of 1895: "in Germanie, fighting for royalty" refer to a later war fighting for English royalty?


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Subject: RE: Origins: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 08:16 PM

The attribution to Hector MacNeil is 1794, not 1895; see earlier comments in this thread from Bruce Olson in particular.

If you're serious about getting this all straight, you need to pay attention to accuracy; and you should also bear in mind that expressions such as "fighting for English Royalty" are meaningless in this context: the Act of Union between England and Scotland was 1707, and the two countries had shared the same monarchy since the accession to the English throne of James Stewart (James I of England, James VI of Scotland from 1567) in 1603. Any good, basic history book will give you the essential details.


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Subject: RE: Origins: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 02:14 PM

Oh I'm terribly sorry, All this time I thought Hector MacNeil's version was written in 1895 because somewhere I read that's when his "Germanie Thomas" was published!
However I never looked MacNeil up, but on doing so very rapidly found that he lived from 1746 to 1818, so that info was very misleading, wherever it was I read it. Darn it. Perhaps it was the date of a later publication, and I assumed too much.
So all this time I've been foolishly following a delusion that Colonel Balfour's "Oh! my Love's in Germany" was published BEFORE Hector MacNeil's "Germanie Thomas" and was therefore more likely to be the traditional Folk version.
I'm trying to get back to the roots, but I'm inverted.
But since Balfour's of 1885 follows McNeil's of 1794, can we think Balfour's was likely to be derivative of MacNeil's? Or can we judge the two versions separately as both being possibly authentic folk versions from different parts of Scotland?
It's the roots of folk I seek.


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Subject: RE: Origins: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 02:35 PM

As for my stuff about "fighting for English Royalty". I lived in Scotland from 1960 to 1978, and went to the Academy in Galashiels and to College in Edinburgh. Many of my fellow students taught me that Scots still had to mind what they said about Which Royalty they were fighting for when the English were about. Like toasting "The King"(across the water, you know): they delighted in continuing the sense of historical rebellion. So I just feel it noteworthy that these songs sung in and before Victorian times are deliberately ambiguous as to who they were fighting for and against.


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Subject: RE: Origins: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 06:19 PM

In discussing 'Aikendrum' Digital Tradition Mirror mentions that Hogg, in his 'Jacobite Relics II' 1821, 22., gives a political song of circa 1715 with the chorus "Aikendrum, Aikendrum" though the tune there is "My Luve's in Germanie".
I wonder what words they sang to "My Luve's in Germanie" in 1715 when they weren't singing "Aikendrum".
Oor om I a man wha cam frae the moon tae be eskin sich a question?


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Subject: RE: Origins: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wiz
From: davidkiddnet
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 08:41 PM

I have put two versions of the traditional lyrics to "My Love's in Germanie" with a tune in MIDI format on my webpage see
http://www.davidkidd.net/18songs.html and also on another page the same tune in "abc" format, see http://www.davidkidd.net/13Kabc.html


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Subject: RE: Origins: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wizard?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 06:54 AM

Bernard and wee LittleDrummerBoy are quite correct. Apart from all the amazing historical cross references here , I believe the first time the song was revived was by Vin Garbutt using a slower version of the tune Jacobites, much earlier that Silly Wizard. You will probably find reference to release if you have access to Topic Records catalogue.

Cheers Betsy


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Subject: RE: Origins: 'My love's in Germanie' by Silly Wiz
From: davidkiddnet
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 11:26 PM

In the year 2008 modern technology forced me to change my web addresses suffix from .html to .htm, so my message above should now read "I have put two versions of the traditional lyrics to "My Love's in Germanie" with a tune in MIDI format on my webpage see http://www.davidkidd.net/18songs.htm
and also on another page the same tune in "abc" format, see
http://www.davidkidd.net/13Kabc.htm


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Subject: Lyr Add: MY LUVE'S IN GERMANIE (Chambers, 1829)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:05 AM

From The Scottish Songs; collected and illustrated by Robert Chambers, Vol. II (Edinburgh: William Tate, 1829), page 502:


MY LUVE'S IN GERMANIE.
Tune—My luve's in Germanie.

My luve's in Germanie;
  Send him hame, send him hame:
My luve's in Germanie;
  Send him hame.
My luve's in Germanie,
Fighting brave for royalty;
He may ne'er his Jeanie see;
  Send him hame, send him hame;
He may ne'er his Jeanie see;
  Send him hame.

He's as brave as brave can be;
  Send him hame, send him hame;
Our faes are ten to three;
  Send him hame.
Our faes are ten to three;
He maun either fa' or flee,
In the cause of loyalty;
  Send him hame, send him hame;
In the cause of loyalty;
  Send him hame.

Your luve ne'er learnt to flee,
  Bonnie dame, winsome dame;
Your luve ne'er learnt to flee,
  Winsome dame.
Your luve ne'er learnt to flee,
But he fell in Germanie,
Fighting brave for loyalty,
  Mournfu' dame, mournfu' dame;
Fighting brave for loyalty,
  Mournfu' dame.

He'll ne'er come ower the sea;
  Willie's slain, Willie's slain;
He'll ne'er come ower the sea;
  Willie's gane!
He will ne'er come ower the sea,
To his luve and ain countrie.
This warld's nae mair for me;
  Willie's gane, Willie's gane;
This warld's nae mair for me:
  Willie's gane!


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Subject: RE: Origins: My Love's in Germanie (Silly Wizard)
From: Betsy
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 08:29 PM

Apart from all the academic research which I love to read, the person who I believe resurrected this song was Vin Garbutt.
His LP would pre-date Silly Wizardor or the Tannahills.
Also I remember sorting out the very complicated tune with his cousin Ray Dales - "Loch Shieling side".
I dont think Vin gets enough recognition for the numerous songs he has brought back into the revival , no one was singing them before him , I won't bore you with more examples.
On No !! Senior moment !!!! I was just scolling-up to find Bernards reference VG and realise I had responded to this thread in 2005
Cheers Betsy


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Subject: RE: Origins: My Love's in Germanie (Silly Wizard)
From: JohnB
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 11:20 AM

Do you have a date for the Garbutt LP?
JohnB


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