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BS: Mississippi Flag Vote
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Subject: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 12 Apr 01 - 07:56 PM The Mississippi State Flag has become a subject of controversy (as many other flags have), and the good people of this state will be voting soon to replace or keep it. The flag has the "Stars and Bars" in its corner, which is the problem. It is said to be a symbol of hatred. I personally do not think hateful, nor bigoted thoughts whenever I view the flag. I see it as a symbol of a state which has struggled with its own past and has overcome much of its erroneous attitudes. I vote to keep the flag. I realize that almost every 'Catter is from elsewhere, therefore this is of little interest and impact to you. Nonetheless, I would like to hear what my 'Catting Friends have to say. Thanks, khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:35 PM Every symbol has it's adherents. Every symbol is dispicable to some one. If a case may be made for banning the Swastika, then a case can be made for banning the Stars and Bars. But a case can also be made for banning the Stars and Stripes, or Black Power t-shirts or Gay Pride parades. And don't give me any stuff about years of oppression and bigotry and the rest of that being adequate reason. It's not. If something is offensive to someone, then it is offensive to them. Period. Just because one group has a good PR setup does not mean that their cause is right or just or even sensible. You can ALWAYS find something to offend you if you look hard enough. To a small boy with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So how do I feel about the question at hand? Unless everything that offends others is banned as well, the flag stays. FLAME ON! troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: JedMarum Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:51 PM I think it is right for the state to handle it through the referendum process, as they are - and it appears that a rather large segment of the MS public finds the historical and traditional value of the flag outweighs any newer connotations. The poll I read said the black population would not vote to remove it, and the total population favored keeping it something 2 to 1. It sounds like a non-issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:04 PM I really wish that before everybody gets on the bandwagon about this flag that we all get our facts straight! This is not the 'Stars and Bars' It is known as the Confederate Battleflag which is based on the cross of St Andrew, like the Scottish flag. The Stars and Bars was the First National flag of the Confederacy. It had three horizontal bars, (red, white and red) with a blue field containing a circle of seven white stars. This flag was the official flag of the Confederate States until it was replaced by the 'Stainless Banner' on May 1, 1863 and remained the official flag until March 4, 1865. The Stainless Banner was a white flag with the battle flag in the upper corner. this was too often mistaken as a white flag of surrender and had the Confederate congress met in 1865 would have a red stripe added to the outer vertical edge. I can uderstand some folks would rather 'sweep history under the carpet' but would appreciate if they took the time to learn the correct facts before they tried to rewrite MY history and try to supress MY HERITAGE. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: JedMarum Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:05 PM Hmmmmm, I just rechecked the news article - it seems I had one stat just backwards; just over half the black population support removing the symbol from the flag. Not a large majority but a majority none-the-less. The entire population polled favored leaving the flag as it is, about 2 to 1. Here are two interesting articles about the poll: details about the AP poll and analysis of the poll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:12 PM Banjer, you are right of course and I know better. Time to switch back to caffinated coffee. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:15 PM No one has 'banned' the swastika- it is publicly and legally worn by the Aryan Nations and National Front types.Fortunately, no U.S. state has chosen to make it part of its state flag. If more than a third of the population of Mississippi is non-white (1990 Census) and they find it offensive, then I think its not quite so simple, if in our Republic the rights and feelings of a substantial portion of the population are to be respected. At the time the battle flag came into being the Black slave population of Mississippi outnumbered the White population by over three to one- and I suspect the majority of the population then found it pretty objectionable. I also suspect that it might be offensive to a good portion of the white population today as well- especially those who remember Goodwin, Schwerner and Cheney and other atrocities committed under the aegis of that flag much more recently than 1861-1865. This is not a case of 'banning' the flag, but of the use of it as a symbol representing ALL the people of the state- for which it appears to be singularly inappropriate in this day and age. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Bill D Date: 12 Apr 01 - 11:34 PM people could still put the Confederate battle flag on their windows, tattoo it on their chests and make it the background for their webpages....but I think it should NOT be part of official state emblems. I don't care what 'traditional' and patriotic excuses you hear, many people who display it are making a political statement about values and, by extension, racial attitudes...Yeah, I know the arguments about 'history'...but you asked.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: katlaughing Date: 12 Apr 01 - 11:58 PM I cringe everytime I see a Bubbatruck, here in Wyoming, which has a sticker of the Confedarate flag on it. It is not a generalisation to say they are always white, male, and usually have a gun rack in the window as well as beer stickers and/or ultra conservative bumper stickers. That is what the flag/symbol represents to me and I consider it racist. I agree with you, Bill D. Just in case some have not seen the Mississippi flag, HERE is a discussion forum about it with a picture. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 13 Apr 01 - 03:04 AM If I lived there, I'd vote against it. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 13 Apr 01 - 04:31 AM If you go to the link that Kat provides and look at the poll results, it would seem that the 'no change' vote is the people's choice. The proposed 20 star flag is very similar to the Confederate States First National Flag! The only difference being the number of stars in the field and the top bar being blue instead of red. It will be interesting to see how the folks of Mississippi will vote. I recently went to Georgia for a weekend visit and despite that state's flag having been changed, many places still display the flag that was voted out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Whistle Stop Date: 13 Apr 01 - 07:56 AM The Confederacy (my ancestors) lost the war. Their flag should no longer be flown by the government; what individuals do is up to them. The swastika is not banned in this country for individuals to display (although it is in Germany), but you certainly won't find it flown over the Capitol. It's also worth keeping in mind that the Confederate battle flag was not part of the Mississippi state flag after the Civil War. It added to Mississippi's state flag in the 1950s, as a symbol of defiance to the federal government and resistance to integration. It has no place there now. If the people of Mississippi vote to retain it, it will shame them in the eyes of the rest of the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: pattyClink Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:21 AM I live here, and at bottom don't care what the flag looks like. What I will vote 'no' about is the incessant demands of the once heroic NAACP and professional-victim leaders running from statehouse to statehouse demanding action on a manufactured issue. I am sending a message, like Jesse is always doing. My message is to accept that the civil rights battles were won and it is time for Jesse and a generation of lawyers to either go get a real job or direct their rage at real injustice. This election is going to cost millions of dollars, which is the fault of cowardly legislators, as well as the people who demanded action. When it is over, if the flag is changed, next we will have demands to take down monuments, change road names, close Battlefield Park, whatever. If it's not changed, we'll have more lawsuits, and unfortunately the end result will not be harmonious race relations, it will be polarization and ANOTHER generation of redneck kids taught to resent black people. It's not about productive change, it's about scab-picking. What if you took the same energy and money and had a huge network of 'sting' teams running around rooting out real employment and job discrimination until we got rid of it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:31 AM Let the people of Mississippi decide. If enough people want the flag changed, maybe they'll care enough to turn out and vote their mind. If they don't, then they can't really complain about it, can they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,TheYank Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:46 AM
Per pattyClink : |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:20 PM At a meeting last week, I listened as many voiced their views on this subject. I realized that the flag symbolized something that I had never considered to several of the men. Alienation...not the type that first comes to mind, but another. One man whom I consider a friend; a man who has never in the years that I have known him, shown disrespect or racial bias to anyone, expressed this to us. "I am white, middle-aged and I feel lost as hell. I feel like I am expected to feel guilty for being me. I have owned no slaves, oppressed no man. Yet, I am being oppressed." "I treat all equally, red, green , black, white. Sure, the blacks were abused, but I didn't abuse them. But, what am I seeing? We have BET on TV; what would happen if we produced WET? There's the NAACP, where is the NAAWP?" "We have Miss Black America, even though we have had a Black Miss America. What if we started a Miss White America?" "A few years ago, we saw Malcom X tee shirts everywhere. What if we wore Delay Beckwith t-shirts?" "We can be offended, but we can't offend. And now, my flag is under fire. Where will it end? Shall we reverse it all and submit ourselves to be slaves to the Blacks? Will that even it all out?" "I'll fight for anyone to gain them equality, but, I'll grant no one the right to superiority." I understand his frustration. His voice is as important as Jesse Jackson's, Pat Buchannan's, or anyone else'. At this point, I see no end to the racial disharmonies. I have no answers, nor have I met anyone who does. The flag is not the issue. It is the present focal point of a deep rooted sickness in humanity. That is the issue khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:32 PM What really bugs me is that the NAACP goes after stuff like this instead of things like poverty, education, drug addiction, crime, teen pregnancy, etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:38 PM I agree with the tenor that visiting the sins of the parents upon the children is not exactly fair. Not only have I not oppressed anyone, but some of the people complaining about historical oppression aren't being oppressed themselves... And I'm a big fan of history, and maintaining historical what-have-you's, but the crux here to me is that the symbol so opposed wasn't historically part of the flag, it was added in the 50's as a F*** You to the civil rights movement. And while I don't think that the civil rights wars have been won, there comes a time to Just Grow Up. Taking that off the flag now would come under that heading, to me. But I'm not black, and my ancestors were either Quakers who wouldn't own slaves, or Jews who were having their own troubles and weren't oppressing blacks either. So some would say I have no right to this opinion... sorry, anybody who minds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Irish sergeant Date: 13 Apr 01 - 07:49 PM As far as I see, the flag isn't the issue the attitudes are. The "Southern Cross" (Is that the proper term for the battle flag, Banjer?) was added in the 1950s in response to the Civil Rights movement. Let all the people of Mississippi decide, which is what I think should have been done in SOuth Carollina and I believe was. Having said that, let me say that I am a New Yorker of Canadian extraction (Dad was born in Ontario) and My personal perceptions may be colored by location. THe flag meaning the Confederate battle flag has been used by some who have stained that banner with bigotry's blotch. I don't mean the soldiery of the SOuthern states. I mean those who would hide behind the flag or any flag to support the cause of oppression. THey're not only white people! I just as vehemently oppose the idea that as a white person should pay "Reparations" to some one for something that wasn't done to them. There is a word for that FRAUD! Pick yourselves up. I'll be glad to lend a hand but don't try to committ extortion under the guise of "Equality" I don't believe that the flag of a separetist movement belongs on a government building but I do believe that it should be the decision of the people of Mississippi. One point to consider, The state of Hawaii is the same one they used before annexation, as is that of Texas. Would we ban those? I would think before answering and remember that what we ban because we don't like it today may well result in far more precious rights being lost. Just one dyed in the wool Yankee's opinion. Kindest reguards, Neil PS Banjer, KImC and anyone in the renacting community doing Bull Run this summer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Amos Date: 13 Apr 01 - 11:14 PM Hell, I guess the voters of Mississippi can decide what flag they want for the future without changing the past. It certainly would not be advisable to reconstruct their attitudes about it; I notice the Native Americans got the whole presentation of the Little Big Horn battle field revised to include both sides of the battle. Banning a symbol is not what should occur - choosing one is. It makes as much sense to ban a symbol as it does to yell at a thermometer because your fuel bills weren't paid. And it certainly is nobody else's business what an individual Mississippian decides he wants to have as his or her state symbol. There is no other origin for the decision. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 14 Apr 01 - 12:59 AM No, the present State Flag of Mississippi was adopted in 1894 by the legislature. When I read some of the responses above, I thought that you were wrong about the flag being adopted in the fifties. I researched it. You were wrong. khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: JedMarum Date: 14 Apr 01 - 01:34 AM Truth is, it's Mississippi's choice. I not only support their right to choose, I'd support whatever choice they make. It might be so, that if you and I lived there, we would choose NOT to fly the flag. It's like smoking; I don't want to do it - but I'd fight for your right to do so. The other interesting thing to me, about this issue, is that a small majority of blacks want to make the change. nearly half of them do not. That says to me, this is more of a history and heritage issue, and not the symbol of hate that some believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Gary T Date: 14 Apr 01 - 05:29 PM Neil, the "Southern Cross" is a constellation visible only in the southern hemisphere. Like the North Star in the northern hemisphere, it is helpful for navigation. The only correct term I know for the symbol under discussion is "Confederate Battle Flag," with "Confederate Flag" generally understood to mean the same thing. The incorporation of the CBF into the Mississipi State Flag may have been in the nineteenth century, but I think it's fair to say the motivation had a lot to do with making a statement about white supremacy. While some may attach no such meaning to the CBF, the history of its post-Civil War use is such that it will never be divorced from that meaning. (Some people attach no derogatory meaning to the word "nigger," but likewise it will never be divorced from attitudes of hateful derision.) I think it's an inappropriate symbol for a modern state flag. No American alive possessed black slaves, but virtually all white Americans enjoy some degree of prosperity and privilege that is generally denied to black Americans. There was no need for a NAAWP because the entire fabric of society, government, and the economy advanced the interests of white people while largely ignoring those of colored people. Likewise, there was no need for a "Miss White America" pageant because whites were always eligible for the "Miss America" pageant. Protests that "I didn't do it" ignore the fact that you benefited from it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Irish sergeant Date: 14 Apr 01 - 06:08 PM Gary: Thank you for the correction. I thought I had read somewhere that the Confederate Battle Flag was referred to as the SOuthern cross. It is an adaptation of Saint Andrews cross. I don't argue that whites have it better in this country. My point was to the issue of reparations. I find them counter productive not only because of the views I stated above but because they ignore the issues that keep the ghettos in existance. Part of which is white America ignorring minorities in this country. The other issue is that it is far easier to place blame and attempt to sue or claim reparations rather than to work for change. Sorry, didn't mean to get on the soap box. Happy Easter all, Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,truckerdave Date: 14 Apr 01 - 11:03 PM Screw the history of the flag. It's what it's come to stand for. Our southern heritage(i live in MS), like the black man burned at the stake on the town square? I'd say that kind of "heritage" is best forgotten. Oh, the civil war and our grand ancestors who fought and died for "states rights"? The states right to do what, exactly? To treat people like cattle, nothing wrong with that i guess. Just part of our heritage. So according to this line of thinking, germans should proudly display the swastika as a symbol of thier "heritage". Some of my ancestors were non-white and non-christian and neither group were treated well by white folks so i may look at it a bit differently than some people but change it or no change it whatever the result that's it as far as i am concerned. Unfortunately if it stays and it looks from the polls it will, one group in particular will have a collective hissy fit forever more. Let's all see if we can guess which group. I'm done now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 14 Apr 01 - 11:34 PM Inevitably, it will stay. Even if it is voted out, it will stay. I am sorry to say that the removal of the flag (or keeping it) will solve nothing. Attitudes remain. The Bubbas will be Bubbas. The Rednecks will be rednecks. Rev. Jesse will still be Rev. Jesse. The blind will still be blind. We are swallowing camels while we strain at gnats. I am disheartened. Sit back and watch as we bite our own asses. khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 15 Apr 01 - 05:50 AM It's not our history or our heritage that needs to be shunned, but rather those that would take a symbol signifying something good and turning it into something evil. There has been mention of the German swastika..Was it not originaly a symbol used by the Native Americans? Did I not read somewhere that it signified the four seasons? No the problem is not the symbols, but all the non-thinking, sheep like morons that would follow some self serving idiot in the furtherance of his vile goals. (Adolf Hitler and Nathan Bedford Forrest, in these two cases) The way to overcome this, in my opinion, would be through education both in schools and at home. The values that I was taught are no longer widely used even today. What will it all come to fifty years from now? Screw the history of the flag ,or of anything else for that matter, is NOT the answer! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Extra Stout Date: 16 Apr 01 - 03:35 AM Re Irish sergeant's " stained that banner with bigotry's blotch". That banner IS bigotry's blotch. During and since the Civil War, a lot of smoke has been blown about state's rights, tarrifs, industrial vs. agricultural development and other B.S. to show that the Confederates had legitimate political and economic issues that led to secession. It doesn't take much research to discover that black slavery was the issue behind the war. It was in some ways like the first domino in a row, so that when a captured rebel private was asked why he was fighting, he said "'cause you fellows are down here." ( The Civil War by Shelby Foote}. No matter what an individual's motivation, the root cause was slavery. If Mississippi wants to continue under that symbol, thats O.K., as long as we all know what it stands for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 16 Apr 01 - 05:40 AM So, Extra Stout, you just put it all in a convenient nutshell for us.... It doesn't take much research to discover thatblack slavery was the issue behind the war This tells me that you think the white slavery that was going on in the north is acceptable? As for your ridiculous statement: If Mississippi wants to continue under that symbol, thats O.K., as long as we all know what it stands for. I know what that symbol means to me, and it is NOT slavery. It is the right of individuals as opposed to the oppression of government which we 'enjoy' today. Long may it wave!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 16 Apr 01 - 12:25 PM Sit back and watch as we bite our own asses. That would be interesting! I might even pay to watch that! Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Irish sergeant Date: 16 Apr 01 - 07:36 PM Extra Stout: I fully agree that the war was about slavery but there were other issues and the majority of the men who fought and died for the Confederate States were not slave holders. The majority of those boys were fighting for the reason stated by that unnamed private Shelby Foote spoke of. Consider this, and remember I speak as an American who served country and flag in combat, there is no flag that is not stained with the blotch of bigotry. The factories of the North were as vile as the slave pens were. Particularly when you factor in that lovely little idea of the company store. Ask the Native Americans if they don't think the U.S. flag is a symbol of racism. All flags are symbols of the hopes and aspirations of their people and the Confederate battle flag is no exception. I stand by my statement above. PLease read Banjer's statement above your s. He is absolutely right. I have met several people intimently involved with both issues in Miss. and South Carolina. The majority are not racists. Let's do something more constructive to fight bigotry rather than fighting over a flag. How about housing initiatives? What about, gee, I don't know getting the other person's view with out getting in a tizzy or mentoring some of these kids who need help with their school work so they have a leg to stand on when they try to escape the ghettoes or shanty towns they live in? Again, my apologies for the soap box, I'm just brainstorming outloud as it were, Kindest reguards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: jeepman (inactive) Date: 16 Apr 01 - 09:31 PM Slavery was real. The war was real. The flag was and is real. Let's, hide all evidence of these hateful things and pretend they did not happen. Then we can take all reference to Slavery, Flags, Hitler, and so forth from all the books and historys of man, then pretend they did not happen. SOUND LIKE 1984 NEWSPEAK? Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,The Yank Date: 16 Apr 01 - 09:48 PM One simply HAS to love the 'Cat. Just when I thought that this
This tells me that you think the white slavery that was going on in the north is acceptable?
The factories of the North were as vile as the slave pens were. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 16 Apr 01 - 11:03 PM And just why do you think these statements are fatuous? Are they untrue? Have you done any research to show that they are untrue? Will you share it with the rest of us? Or are your opinions based on what you want to be true rather than what you can back up with solid proof. The fact is that a slave was a valuable piece of property while a factory worker was looked upon as a production unit that could be replaced at a moments notice. Slaves were whipped, yes, but they were also fed and cared for, as you would feed and care for a horse or cow. Factory owners- for the most part- cared nothing for their workers. In many mills, the doors were locked when the bell rang and anyone who was late didn't work that day. If you got sick and couldn't work, you lost your job. Many mills had "company towns" where the workers had to live. The housing was substandard and they paid high rents. They had to but their food and clothing in the "company store" and there were some factories that paid the workers in "company scrip" that could be spent nowhere else. If you couldn't pay the rent, you were fired and thrown out so the whole family worked children as young as 8 or 9 in some cases. The labor unions eventually ended most of the abuses but some of them persisted up into the 1930's. Slavery was wrong and the life of a slave was no picnic, but life in the factories and sweatshops of the North was every bit as bad. The only difference was that the factory workers were free but often it was only the freedom to leave one intolerable situation for another. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Lonesome EJ Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:16 AM This post copied from a previous thread on the South Carolina flag issue This is a touchy topic. In one of my first posts to the Mudcat I expressed an opinion not very far from the one expressed by Southern Initiative, that the Stars and Bars are a piece of tradition in the South that it's people have every right to display. However, when I see the Confederate flag flowing above a group of Civil War re-enactors my feeling is quite different than when I see it used by Klansmen, skinheads, and other reactionary maniacs who have no clue as to it's historical significance, but see it only as the embodiment of "white power." Sandy Paton reminded me after that post of mine that while it was true that many brave men had died fighting beneath that flag , one could not ignore the negative symbolism that had come to be attached to it, and that therefore it was unacceptable that it should be flown as a symbol for a government that presumes to represent all of it's people. I suppose that many in the South are like myself- people who can name relatives who were wounded or died in battle fighting for the Confederacy. After all, there were many thousands. Somehow it seems to profane their memory to declare this flag an obscenity. Those of us who had ancestors who were common working people or farmers, people who fought out of a sense of protecting their homes, families, States and not with any desire to protect a slave-holding economy that benefitted them not in the least,we have to face the fact that as those warriors sanctified that flag, the forces of hate that came after have dirtied it, and there is little that can now be done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Big Tim Date: 17 Apr 01 - 04:55 AM I'm a liberal, non-anti-racist, non-revisionist, and I say let the flag stand as a symbol of sadness for the past and of hope for the future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 17 Apr 01 - 04:54 PM Slaves were whipped, yes, but they were also fed and cared for, as you would feed and care for a horse or cow. This has got to be meant as a rather tasteless joke- I hope. You cannot seriously be maintaining that treating human beings like livestock is a PLUS? Are they supposed to have been GRATEFUL? This puts me in mind of a thread about a year ago marvelling that there were few if any Black Mudcatters and discussing possible causes. Ya think postings like the one above might have anything to do with it?? Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: The Walrus Date: 17 Apr 01 - 07:10 PM Greg, I read the quote to mean that slaves were considered expensive livestock - remember that to the slavers/slave holders the slaves WEREN'T considered human (a standard slave shippers' term, I believe, was "black cattle") and that the slave holder would try to look after what was considered an investment, not necessarily from any feeling for the slave, but simply that a sick or ill nurished slave was less productive and/or had a lower resale value. Ducking back behind the parapet Regards Walrus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 17 Apr 01 - 08:34 PM We're on the same page here, Walrus, but the point I was trying to make is that those sorts of sentiments were racist crap even in 1860- and we're in the 21st Century, for chrissakes. Haven't we progressed beyond this garbage in the interim? Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 17 Apr 01 - 08:59 PM Mississippi voted today on this issue. Safe bet that the flag remains the official flag for the state. But, maybe I'll be surprised. Again, I say, the flag is not the real issue. It is today's `tug of war. After the vote, there will be another tug of war over another controvery. We can play tug of war til the cows come home and never resolve a damned thing because we are not dealing with the real issue. That is what I meant by "biting our own asses". Each person needs to understand personal responsibility, and perhaps the first step to that is to honestly look at, and deal with, the motives which one keeps in his own heart. khandu
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Extra Stout Date: 17 Apr 01 - 09:32 PM Big Tim, you've got hold of a pretty fair idea there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: ollaimh Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:27 PM the native american swastika goes in the opposite direction from the nazi one . as does the buddhist swaastika and it's indian sub continent relatives. that was intentional as the nazi's wanted the swastika to stand for the opposite of the higher awareness that the origional symbolized. i think that what people do privately is their own business but a public synbol is very different. the confederate battle flag is racist to almost all the people's of the world and many americans don't seem to care. luckily there are better finer forces in america that gave us the bill od rights, the american cuvil liberties union and many other progressive groups. should the germans fly the nazi battle flag to show their tradition? i think we all have had enough of that tradition. and we've mostly had enough of the tradition of slavery in the united states being publicly endorsed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: ollaimh Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:27 PM the native american swastika goes in the opposite direction from the nazi one . as does the buddhist swaastika and it's indian sub continent relatives. that was intentional as the nazi's wanted the swastika to stand for the opposite of the higher awareness that the origional symbolized. i think that what people do privately is their own business but a public synbol is very different. the confederate battle flag is racist to almost all the people's of the world and many americans don't seem to care. luckily there are better finer forces in america that gave us the bill od rights, the american cuvil liberties union and many other progressive groups. should the germans fly the nazi battle flag to show their tradition? i think we all have had enough of that tradition. and we've mostly had enough of the tradition of slavery in the united states being publicly endorsed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: ollaimh Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:28 PM the native american swastika goes in the opposite direction from the nazi one . as does the buddhist swaastika and it's indian sub continent relatives. that was intentional as the nazi's wanted the swastika to stand for the opposite of the higher awareness that the origional symbolized. i think that what people do privately is their own business but a public synbol is very different. the confederate battle flag is racist to almost all the people's of the world and many americans don't seem to care. luckily there are better finer forces in america that gave us the bill of rights, the american civil liberties union and many other progressive groups. should the germans fly the nazi battle flag to show their tradition? i think we all have had enough of that tradition. and we've mostly had enough of the tradition of slavery in the united states being publicly endorsed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:10 PM If a slave on a plantation was injured by a piece of machinery so that he couldn't work in the fields anymore, the family that "owned" him would find "work" for him to do indoors as a sort of social security, even though they really didn't need a full-time person to do the "work" that they had created for him. If a wage slave in a northern factory was injured by a piece of machinery, he was fired and usually starved to death on the streets. Is it wrong to "own" another human being? Absolutely. But it is just as wrong to treat people as disposable cogs in your corporate machine. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:54 PM Thank you Alex. That is what I was trying to point out in my answer to a previous post;"This tells me that you think the white slavery that was going on in the north is acceptable? was perhaps the most fatuous comment I had heard in a great while, it was topped by this
The factories of the North were as vile as the slave pens were. which is arguably more fatuous, and moronic into the bargain." troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:00 AM My congratulations to the folks of Mississippi!! According to our early morning news broadcast it seems that they have elected to keep their flag of 1894! It is good to see that at least part of our heritage is protected from the PC crowd for a while longer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:44 AM Three cheers for tradition and heritage:BLICKY |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:12 AM That song was writen over thirty years ago and conditions have changed, but far be it from me to shatter your cherished illusions. Personally, I don't see how the people of the North can justify how they treat the Irish who are fleeing the recent potato famine. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,Kim C who deleted cookie Date: 18 Apr 01 - 10:21 AM troll and khandu, you guys are the tops. I always love reading what you write. Mississippi voted to keep the flag. To me (but not to everyone, I know) that's the end of the story. The people of the state have spoken, and that's as it should be. |