Greensleeves History of

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Helen
Date: 24 Jan 26 - 03:05 PM

My sister and I never had the Pavlov problem because those sugary mystery ingredients-based "ice creams" were the opposite of our mostly healthy eating habits. As a treat now and then it was ok.

GerryM, I'll have to look up The Twiliters because the band name vaguely sounds familiar.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 Jan 26 - 09:44 AM

Thanks for the confirmation, Lighter.

On a related note, the line:

> I’ll bet the pied piper played Greensleeves

.... reminds me of an observation made by a friend at Uni about his six-year-old nephew: "Pure Pavlov," he says; "he's only to hear the sound of the ice-cream van jingle, and he's involuntarily propelled into the road bearing a sticky sixpence." Given this memory is half a century old, I sincerely hope the spell in question has worn off by now.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GerryM
Date: 23 Jan 26 - 08:09 PM

Me and My Uncle, Coal Tattoo, Dark as a Dungeon – three of my favorite songs on that Twiliters album.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jan 26 - 01:10 PM

A comment on that video page 10 years ago was:

"The members in this version are Gregg Ferris, Kerry White and Jim Maguire, Hans was no longer with them."

So I looked up the discography info:

The Twiliters (3) – Creamsleeves (Greensleeves) which shows that the song Creamsleeves (Greensleeves) was written by Ferris, Maguire, White and the         
Vinyl, 7", 45 RPM, Single record was released in 1966.

It's the same lyrics posted here by GerryM. I had never heard the song or even heard of it but I was still in primary school and didn't discover records until a couple of years after that. I would have loved the song then and it's still funny now.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jan 26 - 12:57 PM

Thanks Sandra. The origin of the song might not be Anon. More research needed? Interesting that the Greensleeves-playing Mr Whippy vans were also possibly way over in Western Australia.

The Twiliters - Creamsleeves

"The Twiliters was a 1960s folk trio from Perth, Western Australia. The members were Jim Maguire, Kerry White & Hans Stampfer.

"The studio version of Creamsleeves was a hit in 1965. On this live 1966 version the double bass is played by jazz great Ed Gaston.
Explanation for non Aussies: For decades one of the most ubiquitous sounds in an Australian summer was a tinkling rendition of Greensleeves emanating from Mr Whippy icecream vans which seemed to be able to traverse every street 5 times a day."

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 26 - 10:28 AM

It's true. At least it was used in WW2.

"Desert pink" was the official name of the color. It was a medium, slightly purplish pink that wasn't quite as startling it might sound. It was used by both the UK and US.

Evidently the color blended in with North African desert sunsets, sunrises, and shadows better than the alternatives.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 23 Jan 26 - 09:24 AM

Curiously, I remember being told (from someone with a military background) that the correct colour to use to camouflage a tank in the desert is pink. How this was discovered remains a mystery to me.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Jan 26 - 04:57 PM

Dave Alexander used to sing CREAMSLEEVES & it's on 'Singer at large', the CD put out after his death. I must play it again.

'Singer at large' is in the Dave Alexander collection, National Library of Australia Creamsleeves is attributed to that prolific songwriter Anon, & if the team of singers who put out the album couldn't find the author, no one could (at the time)

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jan 26 - 04:48 PM

Funny, GerryM! LOL

I've been thinking that in this part of the world Greensleeves would have been the most well-known traditional tune among children.

And I have to say that Turkey in the Straw doesn't sound appetising as an ice cream flavour. ;-( But Greensleeves probably don't taste good either.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GerryM
Date: 21 Jan 26 - 03:36 PM

My apologies if this ice-cream-truck-inspired parody of Greensleeves has already been posted to Mudcat. I don't know who wrote it (but it wasn't me!).

Poor Grandma died and in her will
She left me her love and her doctor’s bill
A moth-eaten cat that was always ill
And a little machine that played Greensleeves.

I had an idea and quick as a wink
I bought an old van and I painted it pink
With a freezer that came from an ice-skating rink
That only worked when I played Greensleeves.

Business was booming, I owned a fleet
My vans went tinkling down every street
The jingle of money was oh so sweet
I’ll bet the pied piper played Greensleeves.

Greensleeves at the rooster’s crow
The grocer’s body swings to and fro
He was condemned, he had to go
For throttling a man who sang Greensleeves.

(slowly with feeling)
Last week they shot my best icecream man
Today they blew up my nineteenth van
For the grocers have formed their own Ku Klux Klan
And the robes that they wear all have green sleeves.

Now the army’s made tanks out of every van
To send to the jungles of Vietnam
Australia’s the envy of Uncle Sam
‘Cause Yanks don’t have tanks that play Greensleeves.

But the army’s got problems I’m telling you
They can sell pink tanks when the war is through
But what in the world are they going to do
With a hundred machines that play Greensleeves?

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 Jan 26 - 03:04 PM

In the UK, ice-cream vans certainly used tinkly versions of Greensleeves.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: meself
Date: 21 Jan 26 - 11:37 AM

Ice-cream trucks are a regular feature of summer where I am - Calgary, Alberta - but they tend to play Turkey in the Straw. Never heard one playing Greensleeves.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jan 26 - 10:04 AM

Greensleeves is the only tune I remember hearing on ice cream vans in east coast Australia.

Australian Ice Cream Van - Greensleeves

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Jan 26 - 07:29 AM

Never heard one playing "Greensleeves," but the last ice-cream truck I remember seeing in New York (musical or otherwise) was in about 1959 - maybe a bit earlier.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jan 26 - 11:18 PM

Sorry, this is a stretch, re-opening this old thread.

This afternoon an ice cream van suddenly rocked up to our neighbourhood playing the old Greensleeves tune that I remember from my childhood. You know the one, the tinkly bell-like, music box-like version.

I honestly cannot remember how many decades ago it was that I last saw and heard an ice cream van. I remember they used to drive around the streets where I grew up in the '60's and '70's, and Hubby says he remembers them coming to this suburb - but mainly in winter which makes no sense. I think he is talking about the '80's or '90's because I definitely haven't heard it for a very, very long time.

A blast from the past. :-D

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:05 AM

You can say it again but I think Volgadon has definitively proved that it's about Belgian cheese.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: meself
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:35 AM

(My post was in response to the one that preceded Lady Jean's ... ).

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:15 AM

I've said this before, so forgive me.

There is an Irish (and probably a Scottish) Gaelic word 'sliebh' which is pronounced like 'sleeve' and means 'mountain.'

I'm sure this song was written by someone Irish or Scottish, perhaps a harper, and the original title had that Gaelic word in it.

It is no surprise to me that this beautiful melody from an oppressed culture was quickly trashed by being linked to prostitution. "That's what they do."

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: meself
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 06:43 PM

Well, that settles it, then!

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: LadyJean
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 06:37 PM

Henry VIII wrote songs. We know because we know about the songs, like Passtime With Good Company or Blow Thy Horn Hunter. It's doubtful that one of his songs would be published without his byline.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GUEST,sims2-3girlalot
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:47 PM

yes It was done for Anne Boleyn.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GUEST,sims2-3girlalot
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:45 PM

yes, it's Anne Boleyn's song.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GUEST,Cms
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 03:12 AM

Many years ago when I was in grade school circa 1955, I became curious enough to look it up in Meriam- Webster. It defined Greensleeves as a grass stain that a male lover would get while propping himself on his elbows and fore arms. It also of course referred the reader to getting a green dress. If one assumes that this is metaphorical for someone who was sex smitten, then it adds some interesting interpretations to the lyrics. Interestingly when I went to look it up in later editions this meaning had vanished, but the term green dress lived on.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:25 PM

Volgadon:

Regretfully, my recollection is from a time nearly half a century ago, when I was a recent high school graduate hanging out in coffee houses. There were some postings in old "Sing Out" magazines of the time and I found some material in library research. I cannot independently recall the source material now. Food for thought, though. Somewhere, there is a researcher who knows all.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 02:13 PM

TJ, I read a lot about that sort of thing, first time I've heard of that. Sources, references?
They didn't wear uniforms, so not terribly hard to distinguish between a soldier and a laundry woman with a pack of brats!

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 01:18 PM

The earliest references I recall seeing depicted the "Greensleeves" as "Camp Followers." Now, that could open a brand new "can" of dialogue. Were camp followers simply prostitutes or were they of a higher calling as they served both the physical and emotional needs of soldiers in the field? As I first heard the story, the green color was to keep them from being mistaken for combatants by either side; a commodity too precious to risk, you see.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 12:51 PM

Because some of us like to keep our history close to what can be veirified.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Gurney
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 06:27 PM

You are a lot of serious people! Why it should matter who wrote a song 400 years ago is beyond me.

My attitude is more summed up by Michael Flanders monologue about it, with Donald Swann's lovely piano in the background.

I do, however, like the idea of sleeves being separate garments. I suppose trouser-legs were, once, which is why we still speak of a 'pair' of trousers.

Must have been draughty.

Just being mischievous.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 06:58 AM

"My understanding of the song has always been this:
- During that time period prostitutes (or whatever you want to call them) for the most part wore some form of green on their arms, to denote their trade perhaps."

Where have you seen that? First time I've heard of it. The lowest sort of prostitutes couldn't afford anything, they solicited in the alleys. I think that a poorly dressed woman flinging herself at you in the street screaming 'reasonable rates' is a better indicator than the color green, especially after dark.
Then there were brothels and high-quality prostitutes. They had better advertising methods as well.

"About the green sleeves, I'm fascinated that the explanation I got from my mother that it was high-ranking, high class women who wore green on their sleeves, and that the poor guy couldn't have her because he was just a lower class peasant. My mother was well known for revisionist history."

Then how could he afford to lavish her with gifts like that?

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 06:47 AM

"The thread otherwise covers quite some ground, and includes, besides a few contributions from people who have bothered to think before posting, a great deal of nonsense, including the frankly bizarre suggestion that the name Greensleeves has some relation or other to the Gaelic word sliabh. It has the advantage of novelty, but is about as likely as the whole song being about Belgian cheese."

It isn't??????????????
Another cherished tradition bites the dust.....

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 06:27 AM

It's a nice melody. Pete Seeger hates the lyrics.

Someone said that the real origin of green sleeves is simply this: In those days, people did not carry handkerchiefs, so they wiped their noses on their sleeves.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GUEST,Elle
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 10:29 PM

The lyrics aren't so great. you are correct on that part. But I do love the music. That's why it's my favorite song. Not of lyrics, but of it's tune.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: masato sakurai
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:40 AM

From David Wulstan, Tudor Music (Dent, 1985, pp. 70-71) [Wulstan doesn't mention 'Greensleeves']:

Henry VIII's prowess as a composer has often been exaggerated, partly because of the romantic view of King Hal espoused by former historians of music, and partly because his subjects were doubtless obliged to be generous in their estimate of the king's abilities. The 'Service' which he is supposed to have composed for his chapel, mentioned by Peacham (1622, p. 99) no longer survives; if works of this kind ever existed, their musical worth is not likely to be much greater than those which survive in the manuscript in question [i.e., King Henry VIII's MS]. Leaving aside a few barely competent parts added to the work of previous composers, the king's musical vocabulary seems to have been decidedly limited. The famous 'Pastime with good company' starts off with exactly the same phrase as many of his other compositions, and in any case the tune seems to have been borrowed from a French theatrical chanson, 'De mon triste et desplaisir'. But although the musical interest of Henry's efforts is small, the words which he and the court composers set are an interesting stmosphere in his household during these years.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 07:35 AM

Henry VIII is usually credited with at least the tune of Pastime with good Company.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Gurney
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 06:28 AM

One way to settle authorship would be to record it commercially. If the lads in black Balacalavas come to collect, you will KNOW that the royalties go to royalty.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 12:44 AM

I wish I knew who started that rumour; he needs a good kicking. Every time someone even mentions Greensleeves, or innocently revives an old thread on the subject, someone invariably trots out that Henry VIII business, for which there is not an atom of evidence, though it has been repeated so often as to have attained the status of unchallengeable received wisdom.

It is a myth. See RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?, where Chappell's suggestion is dealt with. The thread otherwise covers quite some ground, and includes, besides a few contributions from people who have bothered to think before posting, a great deal of nonsense, including the frankly bizarre suggestion that the name Greensleeves has some relation or other to the Gaelic word sliabh. It has the advantage of novelty, but is about as likely as the whole song being about Belgian cheese.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: masato sakurai
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 11:15 PM

William Chappell wrote, in Popular Music of the Olden Time (vol. 1, 1859, pp. 227-8; underline added):

The earliest mention of the ballad of Green Sleeves in the Registers of the Stationers' Company is in September, 1580, when Richard Jones had licensed to him, "A new Northern Dittye of the Lady Greene Sleeves." The date of the entry, however, is not always the date of the ballad; and this had evidently attained some popularity before that time, because on the same day Edward White had a license to print, "A ballad, being the Ladie Greene Sleeves Answere to Donkyn his frende." Also Edward Guilpin in his Skialethia, or a Shadow of Truth<>I>, 1598, says: "Yet like th' olde ballad of the Lord of Lorne,
                      Whose last line in King Harries days was borne."
As the ballad of The Lord of Lorne and the False Steward, which was entered on the 6th October, 1580, was sung to the tune of Green Sleeves, it would appear that Green Sleeves must be a tune of Henry's reign. Copies of The Lord of Lorne are in the Pepys Collection (i. 494), and the Roxburghe (i. 222).

Who originated Henry VIII's authorship?

~Masato

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Melani
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 10:14 PM

The version I heard was that Henry VIII wrote the words for Ann Boleyn and set them to a traditional tune. As for "Greensleeves," sleeves were separate from bodices and jerkins at that time, and a pair of sleeves were often a fancy gift.

From the SCA website:

Alas, my love, you've done me dirt,
For you've sewn green sleeves to my purple shirt.
And then you've done me worse than that--
You've made me go out and wear it.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 07:30 PM

G'day DMcG (If you are still tracing this thread),

In re the authorship of the Greensleeves tune, the Oxford Companion to Music ... the older, single-volume, Percy Scholes edition ... claims that Greensleeves is just a typical example of the Italian fiddle music that came along with the new-fangled violin - that supplanted and smothered much of British traditional music.

Hmmm... (Scholes' views are always good for starting a stoush!)

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: mariamaroo
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 06:52 PM

About the green sleeves, I'm fascinated that the explanation I got from my mother that it was high-ranking, high class women who wore green on their sleeves, and that the poor guy couldn't have her because he was just a lower class peasant. My mother was well known for revisionist history.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: pavane
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 12:37 PM

I should have said 'O shepherd O shepherd' - that's the name it has in the MIDI files.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 05:05 AM

If you had composed a melody and Henry VIII claimed hehad, are you likely to have argued?

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: pavane
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 04:00 AM

I was always led to believe that the TUNE for the song Greensleeves was a slowed-down version of a widely used tune in jig time, and many other songs were set to variants of the faster tune. See for example Shepherd oh Shepherd (will you come home).

The Morris tune is actually related to the faster tune, but in 4/4

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From:
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 12:53 AM

My understanding of the song has always been this:
- During that time period prostitutes (or whatever you want to call them) for the most part wore some form of green on their arms, to denote their trade perhaps.
- The man who wrote this song had gone to see this prostitute and over the course of time had fallen in love with her.

I hope that this doesn't cloud up the discussion any more.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: IanC
Date: 13 May 02 - 04:06 AM

Chances are that's right, particularly as the claim for Henry VIII's authorship was not originally for the song, but for the tune "Greensleeves". This is, in fact, the name of a set of tunes used for the "Bacca Pipes" morris jig and not the song tune.

I have no idea if the claim for authorship of these tunes is correct.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:10 PM

Timjacques:

If one gives credit to the description (as quoted above) that was given in the registration, this was "a newe northern dittye", and thus wouldn't have been written by Henry VIII, dead then those 25 years. Especially if it is alleged to have been written in his youth, as I've read somewhere.

Of course one can take the publisher's description as merely a bit of salesman's puff and write off its claim of newness.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:09 PM

Timjacques:

If one gives credit to the description (as quoted above) that was given in the registration, this was "a newe northern dittye", and thus wouldn't have been written by Henry VIII, dead then those 25 years. Especially if it is alleged to have been written in his youth, as I've read somewhere.

Of course one can take the publisher's description as merely a bit of salesman's puff and write off it's claim of newness.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: IanC
Date: 10 May 02 - 09:12 AM

There's now an electronic version of H. E. Rollins' edition of 'A Handfull of Pleasant Delights, so I'm providing a link to it here for future reference.

Greensleeves is described as "A new Courtly Sonet, of the Lady Greensleeues. To the new tune of Greensleeues."

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 04:20 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 04:53 PM

refresh