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Sessions- US/UK differences?
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Subject: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: ChaosCat Date: 16 Apr 01 - 11:52 PM I'm a player of folk and filk, both traditional and not-so. I play guitar and bodhran, (yes, I can hear the groans from here, but I've been payed for studio work on bodhran, so I must not suck too horribly...) and also love to sing. There are several sessions in my area, but they seem somewhat unfriendly toward both bodhran players, (good or otherwise,) and singers. I do love listening and playing along with all the jigs, slipjigs, and reels, but I always got the impression from my irish friends that sessions were places of welcome and warmth, where one could sing, join in, learn, and generally have a good time around a few pints. I've come away from the sessions here with a feeling exactly opposite- something like, "you don't play the fiddle or the uillean pipes, so don't come round too often" seems to be the reception I find. Is that normal? Personally, as I said, I love both listening and playing with the fiddle tunes, but it begins to all run together, and I've only found one or two people wiling to brave the icy stares and cold shoulders enough to sing at all. I've, for the most part, stopped attending. Should I just look for other sessions, or will this be the standard I should come to expect? |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: The Shambles Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:25 AM I think if one sings at a session that is intended mainly for tunes, you have to accept that the majority of players there will not be able to play. For the duration of the song anywhay.
There are singarounds where an song with a guitar would be frowned on, let alone someone playing a tune?
At smaller events a balance can be found and they are generally more friendly places but possibly not so musically satifying? You do not say where you are? I am in the UK. The main difference, is that those in the US appear to be legal. |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: The Shambles Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:37 AM UK Sessions under threat |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: Jon Freeman Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:03 AM Sessions vary in their intentions. In many of the mostly instrumental sessions I have been to, singing one song in the evening would probably be welcomed but singing more than one song would be frowned apon. Bear in mind that in this type of session, people have come with the main intention of playing instrumental music together and each time someone does a song, they are more or less doing a solo and changing the type of music. Bodhrans have got a bad reputation (with some justification) in some circles but I would hope that places are at least be open to giving a bodhran player a chance. I believe that a good bodhran player is a great asset to a session. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: JedMarum Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:24 AM Sounds like you don't fit with that session. There are many sessions with many formats. If you aren't welcome at one, or can't change their mind - then find one where you do fit. I was asked to attend a session one time at a pub in Dallas - I played along (guitar) on several tunes, but when it came to my turn to lead a song, I sang one. Nearly everyone at the session packed up and left! The session leader apologised and told me that the session was supposed to be open, and that songs were allowed - but that this group of folks who had been coming were very touchy about newcomers, and about singers in general. I stayed and played for another hour or so with the session leader (an accomplished fiddler) and we had fun. But I never went back. By the way, that session ended within the year. Maybe one too many singers showed up! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: JedMarum Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:26 AM ... now that I think of it, it's a darn good thing I didn't bring my banjo to that session! |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: Ruthie A Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:57 PM I'm normally too busy playing to sing in sessions, but I was staying with a few friends in Portland (I live near Newcastle) a few days ago, and we sang in a session then. It was a relatively short song in two part harmony, which appeared to go down reasonably well. Shambles, if you remember, I was the one in the yellow top who was mostly playing flute. We sing in sessions where I live, but the songs are normally tunes such as Maggie in the Wood which also have words. I have been to sessions which appear to be combined with singarounds - unfortunately, the general opinion there seemed to be not to bother asking anybody to sing unless they played guitar. As a pianist (who'd accidentally left her piano at home, but does sing unaccompanied), I found that a bit annoying. Most people I've met seem to agree that anyone calling themself a musician will be able to appreciate a well-sung song, though. As to bodhran players? I haven't ever been to a session where they were unwelcome. Ruthie |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: Jenny the T Date: 17 Apr 01 - 03:21 PM Our local sessions are pretty open to whatever shows up. We've had singers, and enjoyed them. We had a fellow whose contribution was a story (mighty funny, too) and we enjoyed it. We've had every trad instrument at one time or another. And step dancers, and players of spoons ... After more than two years, our session is still going strong. Maybe one reason is that we're not so wrapped up in our own little schtick that we can't enjoy something a bit different. Our lone close-minded thing: we want whatever-it-is to be an element of the Tradition (we're talking trad Irish here). We did have a guy with a double bass one time, though, and he did a magnificent job. Go figure. Mind you, the singers, when they're there, sing _occasionally._ The story-teller gave us his story, then went back to his banjo. Our bodhranistas are sensitive enough to accent the tunes, not make it a Drum Showcase. No one--not even the Big Names we occasionally get--attempts to take over the session, they just inject their special flavor into the usual mix. Keep looking--there's no reason to attend a session where you feel unwelcome. When you locate it, your local Decent Session will be a treasure for you. |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: Stewart Date: 17 Apr 01 - 04:05 PM ChaosCat, as you know, I'm in your neighborhood. I also have similar concerns about sessions. I am a singer (both unaccompanied and accompanied) and instrumentalist (fiddle and guitar). I find fiddle sessions not completely satisfying and unwelcome of singing, and song circles not very welcome to instrumentals. So, I am trying to get a mixed singing/instrumental session going with a focus on trad Celtic Isles and Northern Lands. We meet every first Thurs (7pm) of the month (started in March) at Wit's End Bookstore in Fremont. We've averaged about 6-8 people per session, including fiddles, guitars, a cittern, concertina, Irish flute and whistles, and a lovely Irish (unaccompanied) singer. We take turns around a circle and usually have an equal number of instrumentals and songs. So join us on May 3rd at Wit's End (770 N 34th St. under the Aurora bridge in Fremont). Cheers, S. in Seattle
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: ChaosCat Date: 17 Apr 01 - 05:31 PM Great input, 'catters- and much appreciated! I do play guitar, and have never attempted to play and sing anything which didn't welcome accompaniment of the traditional instruments, and as far as I know, I'm hardly one to try to turn a session into a drum circle, though I do love to play with real celtic musicians, as opposed to Chieftains and DeDanann CDs! (I thought that was sort of the point for the fiddleplayers, too...)
At one such gathering, I was delighted to run into Phil Morgan, who, like me, held his tongue and was a good little folksinger for most of the evening, but after a few hours, (and a few pints, to boot,) one of us, (I don't now recall which,) felt the need to sing, and most of the session-players scattered in a hurry. So phil and I swapped songs and got deep in our pints, and had a marvelous time anyhow.
I suspect that there's also a timeframe that has some effect- I've noticed that many folksingers are later owls, so to speak, and tend to show up later in the session. So maybe it's partially that the sessioners have to get home to families and beds earlier than we do...
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: vindelis Date: 17 Apr 01 - 07:12 PM I am lucky, as I have two sessions a week. One, which has evolved into a song session, predominently; however tune playing musicians are also welcome. The other was started as a tune session, and is continuing along that line. At least it means that we can have our cake and eat it. |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: Mr Red Date: 17 Apr 01 - 07:43 PM ChaosCat What you enjoy, I would call an SAR - singaround - in my venue lists. Other venues are referred to as sessions. In my experience, in the UK, the descriptions are loose and it depends on the night, the people and their expectations. musicians tell me they don't like to go cold. What I found in Canada were mostly open stage/open mic with no jamming (all night). The beauty of the UK scene is our compactness, if the nearest session doesn't suit the next one is only a few miles away. which side of the pond do you inhabit? Most of the time? cresby.com |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: ChaosCat Date: 17 Apr 01 - 08:48 PM I think I would enjoy singarounds, though I've never found one, (outside of an SCA event or a S/F convention,) but I'd still miss the mix of tunes and songs, I think. We have a pub here that does a country music/blues jam, and musicians and singers alike are welcome, though it's based on an established band that each joins in with, and it's not irish even a little. As for location, I'm in Seattle. (Ballard Balladeers is my thread.)Never been over seas, I'm afraid, though I've known many who have. There was a session for a while across the street at the Old Peculiar, where we all brought our instruments, and played an even mix of songs and tunes, and everybody played and/or sang along with anything. The musicians there were at least 50% old country, (I know one was a native gaelic speaker,) everybody had a great time, nobody ever got left out. They even welcomed the non-irish instrumentalists- I saw a balalika there once, and african and south american drums weren't too uncommon either. Still, the music was celtic, and everyone was welcome. Is this really such a rare mix? |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: Snuffy Date: 17 Apr 01 - 09:06 PM Singarounds don't just have to be singing. At our sesssion tonight - Baker's Arms, Broad Campden - there were unaccompanied shanties and Copper Family-type songs; 3 singers who accompanied themselves on guitar; a blues singer/harmonica player; a couple of monologues; 6 fiddles, 3 concertinas, 4 whistles, a small harp, a bodhran, and a pardessus(?) - (it has 5 strings and frets and looks like a fiddle but is played vertical between the knees!). The tunes were mostly Irish/Scottish or Playford/Carolan stuff. Everyone who wanted got two or three turns to lead. I sang two solos and a duet, sang the choruses on everybody else's songs, and played my whistle badly (and very quietly) on a few of the tunes. What more could you want? Oh yes, a choice of 5 excellent real ales, and some really nice folks who welcome wizards and learners alike! Wassail! V |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: ChaosCat Date: 17 Apr 01 - 09:36 PM Sounds like heaven, Snuffy! The session at the Old P' used to give us our first guinness free, and all subsequent pints for 2 dollars- that's a deal I could live with. I guess it's not uncommon around here to give players all their drinks for free, although I sort of gather that the 'tenders pick and choose who they tell, and are more generous with players they especially like. I've rarely had to pay for a pint in several years, to be honest. Is this something practiced elsewhere? |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: The Shambles Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:19 AM My attitude is the same as Jenny T's. You accept whatever turns up. You must do this as it is a public place after all. If you don't like what turns up (and in some cases, takes over) then you have the option to leave.
It seems that the instrumentalists at Chaos Cat's session took that option, rather than needing an early night?
I think that on a first visit anyway, it is polite to wait and see what the nature of the event is. Also to respect the wishes of the majority of the players present.
I do not think that it is polite to change the nature of the event to something that suits your wishes. It is also counter-productive. Would it not be far better to start another session that did suit you and then see who comes to listen to you sing at that one?
I speak as a singer and a tune player. Is the following not the key to the often but not always present, conflict?
I feel that a singer needs an audience more than they need other singers?
There may be very good reason why the event is how it is?It may not be apparent to a first time visitor exactly what these reasons may be however? So would it not be wise to take the time to find out? Talking to them is a good start.
The session twice referred to earlier in this thread, is a good example. There were many other people present at this tune session who would have been able and would have liked to sing that night. It clearly is a tune session. It is however usual for at least one song to be sung. These other singers did not sing a further song that night, for as indicated, one song had already been sung.
There is no strictly enforced ruling however, or any expectation that, very welcome first time visitors would or should be aware of this.
Just mutual respect and the recognition that this weekly (every Thursday) tune session was started to enable those from the nearby weekly (every Wednesday) largely song session, to concentrate on playing tunes.
As there is plenty of oportunity every Wednesday to play songs, it is not necessary to worry too much about singing songs at the Thursday tune session. As also indicated earlier we are indeed twice blessed. It is in sessions as it is in life. You can't please all of the people all of the time and one session will not please everyone. If you don't like the one your are in, try not to mess it up for those that do. Why not leave the session to the ones that do like it and start your own?
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: The Shambles Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:22 AM How is it in the rest of the world? Apart from big....... |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: Jon Freeman Date: 18 Apr 01 - 11:30 AM I'm just wondering what people have in thier area. I moved to Cromer, Norfolk (UK) in February. So far I have found within 30 minutes from me:
A weekly small but excellent Irish (instrumental - not heard a song there yet) session. I'm quite happy - how about elsewhere? Jon |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: KingBrilliant Date: 18 Apr 01 - 11:55 AM There's loads of stuff near Reading Berks UK. I go to the ones which are singing-oriented because I am a crap instramentalist. We have singarounds & folk clubs & open mics all over the place, each with its own character. People are very accepting of songs, tunes, stories, monologues etc, and voting with the feet tends to operate over subsequent sessions rather than at the time - so we've never had a mass walkout of disgruntled people. The nicest sessions are the ones where everyone is interested in listening to eachother's performances rather than that slightly weird thing that sometimes happens where everyone is basically just impatiently waiting for their turn. I think that those sessions where joining in is encouraged probably go a long way to ensure the former & avoid the latter. The one that I'm going to tonight was started as a 'country' session & every now & again we get gently reminded of that - but it has actually evolved into a very diverse session where we all do whatever takes our fancy, be it country, folk, or whatever. That's a nice one. I suppose you just have to try everything you can find & then go regularly to those you like & which suit what you like to play sing & listen to. On the other hand - they can get a bit stale after a while, so its nice to get out to new places from time to time.
Kris PS. Never mind bodhrans - Hammarite will be accompanying me on her djembe tonight. I hope everyone's as tolerant as I think they are...... |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: GUEST,Russ Date: 18 Apr 01 - 12:01 PM Lots of good thoughtful responses. I am a singer living in the states. In my experience, if you want a musical get-together (whatever it is called in your part of the world) to be run exactly the way you want it to be run, you must create it yourself. You create, promulgate and enforce whatever rules you prefer from day 1. As the founder, your authority to do so should not be questioned. (Done that, Helped friends do that, Watched friends do it) For get-togethers you did not create, the more established you become with a group, the more slack you will be cut. A certain amount of dues paying is necessary, but once you become a member of the in-crowd you will have more freedom than a newbie. Even then it might not be possible to recreate the group in your image, but you might be able to nudge it the right direction. (Done that, Failed at that) When it comes to already established get-togethers that you deal with only occasionally and superficially, you are stuck. With properly lowered expectations casual music making can be fun, but not very fulfilling. (Done that) By the way, I have learned to avoid anything called a "session" like the plague. |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: Les from Hull Date: 18 Apr 01 - 12:27 PM What an excellent thread! My experience is that you won't turn a musicians' session or a singaround into a general session without having musicians who are also singers and/or can accompany songs and singers who like tunes and/or are interested in learning an instrument. Ideally you need people with a foot in both camps and it surprises me that we are in a minority. But at festivals I'll find that when both parties share a venue (typically the late-night food tent) there is so much competition between the singers and the players. Not all 'musicians' enjoy accompanying songs or are capable of doing so. Some singers think that a set of tunes is an interval in which they can talk loudly. So if you set up a new event, try to gather a group of people together that enjoy both and are willing to try both. Sets of tunes should be limited to 2 or 3 tunes at a time (maximum 3 times each tune, maybe less for a four or five part). Singers should try to do a majority of songs in fiddle- and box-friendly keys (D, G, Em, Am). This formula has worked for us for the last eight or so years, on a weekly basis. We get an average of a dozen or so people. Les |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: GUEST,Rag Date: 19 Apr 01 - 08:11 AM There seems to be quite a strong tendency at festivals and now sessions as well to separate songs and music. I've heard it said that music sessions lose their momentum if someone sings a song, and I've also heard it said that singers are unwelcome in music sessions. I find that all a bit narrow minded because any sessions can accommodate both. Of course there are those who only want to do their own thing and they will be sectarian about it - we see it at festivals all the time. But that's hardly a recommendation. Historically, music has always been mixed with song. Many of the Irish airs are used for song melodies, and mouth music is a classic example of the link. What can be more boring than endless tunes or endless ballads? Yeah, I know, both! And what about those poor souls who accompany themselves on a concertina or guitar, or whatever, and who then feel inhibited in a song session where people are hostile to instruments. It's all a bit puerile and egotistical. Time we stopped insisting we're right and started appreciating the diversity of what we are offered? It's nicer when singers and musicians both have a chance to contribute. It just takes a bit of consideration for others. But then maybe some people wouldn't be quite so able to use sessions as practice? Should sessions be used for practice?
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: Louisa Date: 19 Apr 01 - 08:39 AM I find it interesting to hear that there are a lot of sessions and singarounds near Reading because I lived there for about 10 yrs and knew only of folk clubs in Reading, Bracknell and Nettlebed, and a very good Irish session in Slough. Its a shame there seems to be little actually going on in Reading as without a car I was unable to get to any of the things happening in the countryside. I live in Coventry now and despite the fact that the city isn't as aesthetically pleasing as it could be, I'm v. happy because I can go to sessions 2 - 3 times a week. By this I mean tune sessions at which you may hear one or two songs during the night. There are also singarounds going on - that I haven't managed to get to yet but I'm working on it. In my opinion the best sessions have songs and tunes. If the singer accompanies themselves than fairly decent musicians ought to be able to join in for the chorus and instrumentals etc. If the session is full of tune players then unaccompanied song isn't that suitable as people come to play with others. I'm a fiddle player and singer - but I don't accompany myself. I don't usually sing unaccompanied in tune sessions unless someone asks me too as there's frequently a lot of noise in the background and by the time everyone has gone quiet I've already sung a couple of verses and the meaning of the song is lost. Regarding bodhrans - it is case of only playing if you can keep time and being sensitive to how many other bodhrans are already playing and how many melody players there are altogether. I find it a bit off-putting to play a tune and be drowned out by the percussionists, or worse still, bodhran players or other musicians speeding up or slowing down the tune after you've set the pace. The key thing is to listen and try in fit in with what's going on. I agree that a couple of good bodhran players can really improve the overall sound. All said, the whole point of playing music is that it is supposed to be fun and enjoyable so you don't want to go to session and feel the folk police are there. There's no point in getting annoyed or angry and being miserable in a session - so if people do act like that then they're probably not worth playing with. Would be interested in details of those near Reading events someone mentioned.... Louisa |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: Scotsbard Date: 19 Apr 01 - 07:42 PM The longest running weekly session here has shifted between a few different pubs, but otherwise been continuous for what must be at least 20 years. A few of the founding members still show up occasionally, but the on most nights at least a half dozen experienced players anchor the tunes. It's basically a friendly lot, helpful with tune names and tolerant of the odd errant note if you've done enough practicing to get the gist of the melody. Singers are openly encouraged to take advantage of the occasional breaks for liquid refreshment. Last night there were probably 20 players altogether and a splendid time was had by all (including Chulrua, who are in town for a festival, marvelous musicians all!) The other sessions are much newer and usually smaller, one about a year old and very unstructured, and the other perhaps only formally organized for a handful of years. Both concentrate on instrumentals with occasional vocals, and a few of the local players can often be found at all three in a given week. Again, they all seem to encourage learning and participation for anyone with manners and interest. Overall, I think it's a remarkably supportive traditional music community here. I've never sought out song circles here, as they often develop as an serendipitous adjunct to the open mic or songwriter's sessions. The few I've attended elsewhere were quite enjoyable. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 19 Apr 01 - 09:16 PM To Les from Hull do you know any good sessions in hull? ive been going to tap and spile (spring bank) on sundays music i like is folk and irish. |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: Les from Hull Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:52 AM John in Hull - Kingston, Cumberland Street Fridays 9pm onwards - see you there tonight. Oh and welcome to the Mudcat! Les |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: KingBrilliant Date: 20 Apr 01 - 08:33 AM Hi Louisa, I'll PM you with some details of the Reading area stuff. Kris |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: KingBrilliant Date: 20 Apr 01 - 09:24 AM Hi again Louisa, I've sent you a personal message - if you don't recieve it then let me know in this thread & I'll try again. Kris
PS - I mentioned Hammerite's djembe earlier in the thread. She played it at the Wed night session to accompany me. Then one of the guys asked her to do a couple of numbers with him later on. I think that's the mark of a really lovely bunch of people, to encourage a kid with a loud drum! She picked up the rhythm & they sounded pretty damn good. It was one of those Proud Mother moments... |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: The Shambles Date: 20 Apr 01 - 03:35 PM Just a word of caution. Given the present climate in the UK, as regards council's taking action against sessions. Before putting the name of the pub here, it may be wise to check that the premises do hold Public Entertainment Licenses. |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: Mr Red Date: 20 Apr 01 - 07:21 PM Snuffy Give my regards to Amanda Thanks for the info on the Bakers, I have it as the 3rd Tues, is that right? any other SAR or sessions in the area? Sessions at Upton festival (Mayday BH) will probably be in the Swan and the Muggery is usually a SAR session mix, there are also some good participation FC type events for ticket holders. |
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Subject: RE: Sessions- US/UK differences? From: GUEST,Lady Ellen Date: 10 Feb 05 - 12:55 AM Rerefresh |
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