Timothy McVeigh

Subject: Timothy McVeigh
From: Fiolar
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 09:27 AM

I understand from a news item that a company has applied for permission to show the forthcoming execution of the Oklahoma bommber on the net on a pay basis. Thoughts. The last public execution in England was I believe in 1868. If granted will this set a new trend in what I regard as rather sick voyeurism.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 09:32 AM

I can't see frying the bastard anyhow.

Keep him alive as long as possible. Remove parts from time to time, when people need them for transplants.

You don't have to bother posting the shrieks of outrage. I'll take them for granted. But the above course of action would be the closest we could really come to achieving Balance.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: LR Mole
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 09:37 AM

ABC-TV says it's broadcasting the story from Oklahoma City and not the execution site, to emphasize the importance of the victims and survivors, not the evil.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 09:45 AM

Yes, of course he's a bastard; an appalling, grinning moral pygmy with no sense of remorse. But two wrongs don't make a right, and the idea of broadcasting the second wrong to the world is obscene. Obscene, but not surprising.
For, as the great Henry Louis Mencken said, "No-one ever went broke under-estimating the taste of the public"
And that applies as much to ISPs trying to flog footage of McVeigh's death around the net as to the yellow press in Mencken's day. I fear there will always be a market for such stuff. I'm sure if the rights were available, Rupe would have Sky TV broadcasting public hangings at Tyburn - and they'd top the ratings.
Sadly humanity never seems to show much humanity en masse, preferring Old Testament to New Testament concepts of vengeance and "justice" - witness the opinion polls in the UK for capital punishment.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 09:52 AM

...and of course what he said was: "No one in this world, so far as I know ... has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people."

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 09:53 AM

As far as I know the Justice Department ruling does not allow any public broadcast of this execution. It has allowed a closed circuit transmission of the event to a specific location for the express purpose of allowing the very large number of individuals directly involoved to see th execution. Allowing direct relatives of a capital murder victim to view the execution of the murderer is common practice in the USA. In this case, that meant too large an audience for normal viewing.

If one of the major points of capital punishment is retribution then viewing of the execution, at least by a representitive body of the public at large is almost a requirment.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:08 AM

If capital punishment is meant as a deterrent, then executions OUGHT to be public, else how would they deter? Note that I a) would not watch this one any more than any other, b) don't believe in (well, desire) vengeance, and c)lost my father to terrorism back in the 80's when Islamic fanatics were killing Americans right and left. I had no desire to have the people caught for that killed either.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:15 AM

Public executions are still very common in any number of places including Iran, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian controlled territories.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Peg
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:24 AM

I agree this sets a horrifying precedent. One wonders why the most popular movie of last year (even though it was crap) was something called "Gladiator."

We like to speak of ancient civilizations as barbaric because they practiced human sacrifice; but we do it today, in modern, civilized society, in multitudes, except it isn't ritualized behavior meant to propitiate the gods; it's random and thoughtless.

And most people believe Roman-style and medieval style public executions were also horrific. What is happening to us?

The man is evil and deserves punishment; but the state should not have the right to murder anyone...not even a murderer.

Is anyone who watches this man's death honestly going to feel vindicated and triumphant and BETTER about what happened to their loved ones?

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:34 AM

What precedent is this setting? The viewing an execution by the victim's family is common practice in America. There is no new precedent being set here. What is random about the execution of Timothy McVeigh? Waht is public about the execution? As far as I've seen, no one but the victim's family and prison officals are viewing the event. And of course the state has a 'right' to execute people, in fact they have a responsibility to execute people for capital offenses. 70% of Americans believe this - it is written into the legal code of state and federal governments alike. And I will feel better knowing that my society has taken the ritual step of executing this man for his most heinous of crimes.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: sledge
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:50 AM

Peg,

"but we do it today, in modern, civilized society, in multitudes," interesting statement but please clarify it please, the last execution in the UK was in the sixties.

"And most people believe Roman-style and medieval style public executions were also horrific", they were horrific, read any contempory account and it is not at all nice, eviseration, dismemberment and burning.

I have also read items on pro death penalty websites where the killing of murderers has given a sense of justice, closure or revenge to the famalies, not an attractive thought to some but we are all different and our response to such an emotive issue will vary equally.

Stuart

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:03 AM

I almost agree with Midchuck. McVeigh wants to be seen as a martyr. He had hoped to die in a "glorious" shootout. He deserves to grow old and unknown in a cell tucked away from reporters, book deals, and TV opportunities. Sorry but I can't condone the body part thing unless of course they were used to replace the missing eyes, ears, and limbs of his victims.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Burke
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:06 AM

Well, it's the victims' families, not victim's family. Which means many of them viewing, not in person, but by some kind of video feed from the execution chamber to an auditorium where they are all gathered. Depending on how it's handled, it can become a spectacle. Anyone know how far apart they are? If there's any kind of wireless transmission, there's the possibility of others figuring out how to tune in themselves & by extension feeding it on to others. It's supposed to help bring the family closure. An interview I heard on the radio with a minister who spent many years dealing with the families in Texas indicated that it's not the salve people expect it to be. Especially if there is no death chamber apology.

It's also not the panacea that 70% of Americans seem to think it is. What most of us, including the families, really want is to hear him say, 'I'm sorry,' in some form that we find believable. Killing McVeigh gives us nothing & takes away the opportunity of his ever possibly coming to a state of remorse.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:35 AM

I am opposed to the death penalty so I am the wrong person to ask. Killing T. McV. is wrong, so I suppose televising it is wrong also.

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:58 AM

Actually, I believe the families want to know why he did it.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:12 PM

I think the only thing sicker that that SOB is someone wanting to make his execution a public event, for money or not.

While it is obvious that he is/was sick, mentally, I agree with Bill Mahar's ( of the TV program Politically Incorrect ) recent statement that the plea "Not Guilty by Reason Of Insanity" should be changed, in many cases to "Guilty by Reason of Insanity". This is certainly such a case.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: RichM
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:12 PM

I am horrified by the idea of executions. My country (Canada) did away with capital punishment many years ago.

But--I think all executions SHOULD be televised.

Maybe the repugnance that hopefully would result from broadcasting these, would eventually lead the USA (and other backward nations) to final join the civilized world.

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:20 PM

Interesting point, Rich. You may be right.

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:24 PM

UH-UH. He was not civil. He gave up his right to be part of the civilized world. The only thing that he could have done as a step to redeeming himself would have been to write a detailed explanation of his actions before he did us all a favour and had the guts to save the people who have to carry out his sentence and the families who have to relive the terror and sorrow the trouble by taking his own life.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:25 PM

I read that the reality of execution by injection is sanitized and muted; that the idea that there is satisfaction in seeing someone silently take their last breath is far off the mark. It's ironic that we have been able to clean up the retributive act of killing of the killer so that the horror of what is being done is at a remove.

I think that requiring the killer to live is a greater punishment - and cheaper too.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:32 PM

Cheaper ? Not unless you are going to force labour from him.

Besides, can you really ask the families to swallow that ? We have recently learned here in New Brunswick that a fellow who made two cops dig their own graves and then shot them in the back of the head over twenty years ago has a wife and child and is free.

Don't add up to some people.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: kendall
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:37 PM

70% eh? interesting. Does that mean that only 30% of Americans are Christians? How can a Christian believe in the death penalty? He took the lives of 168 people. Now, 70% of us want to take his life. I believe it was Gahndi who said "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth only makes the whole world blind and toothless." Witness the ongoing madness in the middle east. I cant see freeing him. He should spend the rest of his life in prison.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:45 PM

"Let us kill men to show all men that killing men is wrong."

Where's the logic there?

IT'S CHEAPER?!?!?! We're talking about a human being here.

PEOPLE ARE NOT DISPOSABLE.

The argument "killing him is cheaper than keeping him in prison for life" merely adds to the cultural idea that people are disposable, which IMHO makes it more likely that more murders will be committed in the future.

It doesn't matter what's cheaper. It matters what is the RIGHT THING TO DO.

But what do I know? I worship this bizarre God who said, "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:20 PM

PEOPLE ARE NOT DISPOSABLE. Does putting in in huge red letters make it true if it's not?

People are as disposable as any commodity there is. Everybody dies. If they didn't, we'd overcrowd the planet even faster than we're doing now.

A civilized person does not initiate the use of force or violence. Once someone else initiates it (including using the threat of violence to control someone else's actions or obtain value from them), the initiator has opted out of civilized society, so others have no ethical restrictions on what they do to him. Legal restrictions, perhaps, but no ethical ones.

I am aware that this is not in accordance with the teachings of Jesu ben Joseph. I don't consider that important, since I suspect that more violence has been done to more innocent people - in Europe and the Americas, anyway - in the name of, and under the purported authority of, that one individual, than for all other reasons combined. Witness the various religious wars, Inquisitions, witch burnings, attempts to convert the heathen by force of arms, et cetera ad infinitum.

Peter

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:20 PM

Hang the bastard... and Pay-per-view it! Don King needs a few more millions...

Hell... put my name in the lottery for who get's to stick the needle in his arm!

Strength and Honour

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:29 PM

I think watching him getting injected would be rather boring....I'd rather see him fry....

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:32 PM

Good point Amergin... or fed to sharks!!!

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM

So let me see if I understand your logic, Midchuck. People have done evil things in Jesus' name, so nothing he says has any import?

Oh yeah, now THAT would get you an A+ in your logic class.

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:37 PM

Or better yet, Clinton, throw him in with the ganger bangers....and televise it...

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,DJH
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:38 PM

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:43 PM

If people are disposable, why do you care if Timothy McVeigh blows up a federal building or two? Just getting rid of some disposable commodity, so why kill him as well? We don't execute people who throw away pencils or burn paper cups.

Your logic don't hold water, Midchuck.

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:46 PM

What He deserves and where society should draw the line interms of Brutality are 2 diffrent issues. Maybe if society held Virtue up high enough to not stoop to his level, children would grow up with more reverance for TRUE DEEP VALUES. They gave Christ the death penalty. "forgive them Father , they know not what they do." were his choice of words while he hung on the cross.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:49 PM

I'm sorry, but I'm in the "Break the Ba*d for Spares" camp:
1) It at least makes him useful to society
2) It's easier (and cheaper, if you're economically inclined) to keep one multiple murderer on a kidney machine and/or respirator etc than several "innocent" people.

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:50 PM

Hey Clinton, keep on smoking your cigarettes. When you die your horrible death from long cancer, it'll be a lot slower and much more painful than the needle in McVeigh's arm.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:51 PM

So let me see if I understand your logic, Midchuck. People have done evil things in Jesus' name, so nothing he says has any import?

I don't think I said that. It would have been more convenient if I had, since it would be so obviously in error. A lot of what Jesus said makes a great deal of sense. I especially like the one about him who is without sin casting the first stone. Some of what he said makes no sense at all - i. e. the bit about any man who looks at a woman and lusts having already comitted adultery with her in his heart - I guess that makes all married, healthy, males adulterers; so why should marriage vows mean anything - but I digress.

What I was trying to say was that a workable ethical code for the entire society must not be based on the teachings of any one religion. It should be deriveable by logic from the initial premise that people can have better lives as part of a society than if everyone lives on his own fortified mountaintop. (Which is a premise I accept most of the time.)

The point about the violence done in Jesus' name was only that the fact that an ethical code derives from some excellent religious teaching doesn't guarantee that it'll work in practice, even for the bulk of the people who profess to believe in that religion.

The good thing about the violence done by Christians, historically, is that so much of it was done to other Christians - heretics, you know - over points of doctrine that most of us can't even understand. So if you aren't a Christian, you're relatively safe.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:52 PM

Wasn't there a thread recently about chickenshit anonymous posters flaming regular members? Thanks for providing evidence for the prosecution, gonad-free GUEST.

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:56 PM

I never claimed to base our society's legal code on Christianity or any other religion. You appear to have taken my throwaway line at the end of my post for the heart of my argument. It wasn't. It was a "but what do I know?" throwaway.

The heart of my argument is that killing killers is (1) illogical, and (2) doesn't deter murderers, and (3) contributes to the societal attitude that people are disposable, and thus that killing isn't really all that bad.

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,Midchuck upstairs
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:10 PM

The heart of my argument is that killing killers is (1) illogical,

If they're trying to kill you at the time, it's very logical indeed. If the damage has been done, and society's doing the killing, you may be right - but to have standing to complain about killing murderers being illogical, you should point out what treatment of them is logical. Giving them 40 years free room and board doesn't really cut it either.

and (2) doesn't deter murderers,

It deters that murderer very effectively indeed. You appear to be right that it doesn't deter the others very well.

and (3) contributes to the societal attitude that people are disposable, and thus that killing isn't really all that bad.

A society that fights wars already has that attitude so ground in that it doesn't really matter. A society that doesn't fight wars becomes extinct in a generation or so. It's sad, but I see no other choices.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:18 PM

One can believe war is a necessary evil, for self-preservation, without believing people are disposable.

Locking somebody away in solitary for the rest of their life deters their committing any future murders, too, and doesn't send the message that taking a human life is okay.

Killing somebody who is threatening your life, or the lives of your family, does not imply that you think people are disposable. If it's between him or my daughter, it's going to be him. He is the one that set up the dichotomy; I am merely doing what is necessary to protect my child, as is my responsibility as a parent.

Coming back later, after the damage is already done, and taking yet another life is quite a different matter. Apples and oranges, my good man.

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:20 PM

MT... all valid points, ya... but what do you do with the John Wayne Gacies (sp?), Charlie Mansons, or the Paul Bernardos of the world... the ones for whom there is no cure, no hope of EVER getting them to curb, and fit into society...

If yer dog was rabid and a danger to itself and others, you'd take it out behind the barn and drop it like a bad habbit... and people are no better or worse than dogs...

Hell, a lot of people are a hell of a lot worse than the worst dogs!

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:24 PM

I have to disagree, Clint. People are people. Dogs are dogs. We have laws against killing people but not dogs (except as a matter of property rights). Why? Because we as a society recognize that human life is more dear than canine life. I'm only arguing that we be consistent about it.

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:46 PM

Very Weak when you have to go over to seperation of church and state to side step a perfect example of what Humanity should aspire to. So leave Christ out of it and use Martin Luther King Jr or Ghandi where would they stand on the issue. Mercy and respect for life should cross all religious and societal boundaries.
Children never take the lesson "Do as I say , not as I do" to heart , actions speak louder than words. The cycle of voilence won't break as long as society embraces the idea of vengeance.
As long as the argument comes down to $$$ which is cheaper incarceration or death? We are getting nowhere.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 03:08 PM

See, MT... -I- don't agree that human life -IS- more dear than any other kind of life... That's why for instance, I don't by into the "New Age, Gonna save the planet and all the cute fuzzy animal babies" crap... they don't wanna savethe planet ofr the plantes sake... they wanna save it for thier own sake... and they only wanna save the stuff that they like...

Humans are just another animal on this rock, as much a the whim of nature as most other species... sure we have air conditioning, and paper plates and plastic trees, but that doesn't give us any special standing...

Sure all life is important, but even pods of whales drive out thier own when they are anti-social... some chimps will on occasion, kill and eat each other.. it's the way of the planet... some stuff dies so that other stuff can live...

Just my 0.02 eh... I'm not trying to convince you at all... just sharing different opinions eh...

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: jeepman (inactive)
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 03:15 PM

Killing him is playing into his plans. When he dies he is no longer suffering and will be forgotten in a few months.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 03:22 PM

Executing McVeigh creates yet another martyr for the neo-Nazi and white supremicist militias.

Just as McVeigh chose the anniversary of Waco to commit his mass murders in Oklahoma City, you can be sure that the anniversary of his execution will become a touchstone for the scary creeps (and there are lots of them in America) to whom he is a hero.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 03:33 PM

"neo-Nazi and white supremist militias"

*shudder*

To quote Indiana Jones "Nazis... I hate these guys."

Or The Blues Borthers "Illinois Nazis... I HATE Illinois Nazis!"

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 07:38 PM

McVeigh has said that he would rather be executed than spend his life in prison. He'll get a big finish, with the world watching him, and on the front of all the crap papers. A sort of reward, and easy way out. And you can guarantee that the execuition, especfially if it ends up as a public public execution, will make it far more likely that some other McVeigh will be motivated into doing something similar.

Executions do not deter this kind of terrorism. They encourage it. They turn coldblooded killers into heroes. Hell, we're still singing about them hundreds of years later, aren't we?

No doubt there'll be a Ballad of Timothy McVeigh just like there was a Ballad of Lieutenant Calley (and he wasn't even held in prison for more than a few weeks - McVeigh killed the wrong sort of children I suppose...)

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Peg
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 07:53 PM

well said McGrath. I agree completely. McVeigh wanted notoriety when he built that bomb and set it off and killed those people; now his execution will be a big melodramatic finish. Punishment should be about suffering, not mercy and glorification.

Be that as it may, I still think it is wrong for the state to sanction murder, even by way of punishment. It makes us no better than the killers we claim to be "punishing" and in fact makes us worse because we do so under the sanctimonious label of "deterrence."

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:44 PM

McGrath, I agree totally. Mousethief misunderstood my position- I too favor putting these people away, I do not believe in the state (us) killing in cold blood. If someone, for instance, is killed by a homeowner, even unnecessarily and tragically, it is my belief that that was the chance the intruder took. That is far different from a government deciding to take the life of someone in retaliation for an act that was already committed. In law we make a distinction between first degree murder and other types of killing- if it's planned and prepared for, it is MURDER, in my eyes, no less so than if it were done by an individual.

I believe having such a policy in a society coarsens and hurts the people of that society. And it's counter productive, a terrible reflection on us. It takes very little imagination to kill- surely we can do better than give a knee-jerk reaction.

Timothy McVeigh planned and prepared for his act- he is a murderer who committed a heinous crime. We should not further his grandiose aims by killing him, a result he wants. Far better to lock him away and let him be reminded every day that he will never be free again.

My crack about prison being cheaper than execution referred to the prevalent myth that killing a criminal and getting it over with is cheaper than board and room for the rest of his/her life. It's not so. (Although I must say that I don't know if that's true if the person doesn't go through repeated appeals and stays.)

Mousethief, I think, though, that you kind of weaken your anti-execution message when you "quote" God. In the Old Testament, which many people think of as the Bible, God was not nearly so persnickety.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:14 PM

Ebbie, I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. I'm glad to see we're closer than I had thought.

Perhaps I do weaken my argument by admitting my faith in the Christian god. Then again anybody who would hold my faith against me in an argument (a classic ad hominem) isn't really worth arguing with, so it's no great loss.

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Troll
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 12:15 AM

I think that they should come up to him as he's lieing there, strapped to the gurney and tell him that the closed circuit T.V. broke and that no one will see him die except the state-mandated witnesses. And let him think he's going to die alone. Don't give him that final satisfaction, that final audience.

troll

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Jimmy C
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:30 AM

We do not have the right to take a life except in self defense, even the life of someone like McVeigh. Jail him for life, but not in these so called jails that are more like hotels. BTW it is more expensive to execute someone than to keep them in jail. All the lawyers fees, appeals, stays of execution etc all amount to more than the cost of a lifetime in prison. Put him away but televise his lonely, hopeless existence from time to time, that would be a better deterrent than killing him. Make a video of him wasting away in a prison cell and use it in schools to get the message across that crime does not pay. His execution would have little effect, we see worse in movies and on TV every day. Innocent unborn children are being killed in their thousands every year and it is hardly noticed, why should the death of a madman be anything special.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 02:03 AM

I'm against the death penalty, but I've no objections to him having his rectum widened every day for the rest of his life, in the meanest "correctional institution in the land.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Chip2447
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 03:25 AM

Midchuck, I tend to agree wholeheartedly. What would the topic of this thread be if a law officer had shot and killed Mr McVeigh as he was trying to park his truckbomb. Would we be lynching said officer for undue deadly force, or would we be praising him for saving untold lives? Let McVeigh be a martyr, and lets televise him being blown to pieces by a device similar to the one he constructed, lets just see how bravely he faces the fate that he has subjected others to. When someone else wrongly believes that the senseless slaughter of innocents is the way to achieve their fifteen minutes of fame, they should then be subjected to the same treatment. We as a society have a duty to insure that these people will never be able to repeat their actions. The only way that we can absolutly prevent them from a repeat performance is to become the instrument of their demise.

Chip...

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,Conor
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 04:10 AM

Several of my family were executed; another was jailed as a young lad, and in jail the governor took an interest in this bright kid who'd got involved with murderers (Pinkerton's men).

The governor put him in charge of the library and talked to him about books, and also about the philosophy of life.

The descendants of the executed people grew up with vengeance in their hearts.

The lad who became the prison librarian changed from being an almost psychopathic child (torturing animals, trying to kill his young cousin) to being a decent and kind man. He lived a long and honourable life, contributing to his society with his work, and brought up a family of good people. He died last year +RIP+

Execution, and the attitude of vengeance, breeds hatred and a desire for revenge. Kindness and help is what people need.

If someone is *incapable* of reform (and there are a few of these), then he needs to be in a prison where he is well treated and has all he needs. Not only does punishment and torture not work, it's stupid and wilfully cruel if people can't help themselves.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Fiolar
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 05:26 AM

Some interesting points made. As an ex-nurse of some 37 years experience, I have witnessed, I suppose several hundred people die in the course of my career. Every one that I remember slipped away peacefully. Some were gone in a matter of moments. Regarding McVeigh - an injection will allow him to fall peacefully asleep. Several science fiction stories over the years had an interesting concept. The killer was made to experience time and time again the last moments of the victim. I suppose that concept is in the realms of fantasy, but just imagine if some of the billions spent on arms were turned to that type of research.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 05:40 AM

I currently work in a prison as a nurse. From what I have seen, humans are remarkably adaptable to their conditions. I cannot imagine spending even five minutes in prison, with all my decision making ability stripped from me. But convicts have a remarkable ability to adapt. I think this is good, as we do not want a large population of insanely angry prisoners, many of whom are there for non-violent crimes.
I am against capital punishment. But I also feel that society's worst criminals, such as McVeigh, need a worse punishment than life in the general prison population. I say let's let Mr. McVeigh try to adapt to the next sixty years of his life in total isolation, in a six by eight cell, instead of the execution which he understandably desires. BlueJay

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:50 AM

This "punishment" business seems so pointless. It's not going to change anything. I'm for reform if people are capable of it, pleasant incarceration if they're not.

The idea that the surviving relatives of someone who has been murdered feel better if the person who did it is harmed strikes me as a bit iffy. Perhaps they feel better for a while; I can't see it improving their lives forever.

Punishment is an unintelligent approach.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:23 AM

I assume we all agree that McVeigh has done a horrible thing. But trying to dream up ever-more-hellish punishments for him will not solve anything; in fact, it will only foster an increased callousness among the rest of us. So far in this thread we have heard some discussion of the pros and cons of the death penalty, along with a lot of comments that basically say "let's do THIS to him; that would REALLY be horrible!"

My personal view is that the death penalty doesn't do anyone much good, and should be abolished. But I am appalled by the number of comments here that promote gang rape and other forms of torture as an appropriate means for society to impose "justice". It sickens me that so many in our society feel that physical and psychological torture should be instruments of government-sponsored punishment for criminals -- no matter what they have done.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Troll
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:28 AM

Blue Jay, I like the way you think.
Chip2447, what if he face death bravely and without flinching? What a great coup for his supporters that would be.
Guest, if you want pleasant incarceration, you pay for it. I think that the families of murder victims should be exempt from all taxes.Why should they have to pay for the perpetrator to live in "pleasant incarceration" when they have been deprived of a father, etc. and are having to support themselves without the victims emotional and(possibly) financial support.
Where are the rights of the victim in all this?

troll

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: kendall
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:31 AM

Watch closely anyone in whom the desire to punish is strong. I repeat, to kill him is to free him. Another thing. How many times have other countries refused to extridite criminals back here because of our death penalty?

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,Just Wondering
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:46 AM

Interesting that a couple of contributors suggest rape as a suitable punishment (partial) for McV. And televising it too. Doesn't that open up a can of worms. What does this say about these contributor's attitude to rape? And our attitude (as a society)to sexual violence? Would McV have been "asking for it"? Who are the "civilized" ones here? Creepy!

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:27 AM

Good comment, Kendall. Yes indeed "Watch closely anyone in whom the desire to punish is strong"...

I grew up with a father who had that attitude, and I am still repairing the psychological damage he did to me. From him I inherited fears that I have yet to completely exorcise.

People who are in favour of raping, torturing, punishing, and executing those whom they deem "evil" should all get the chance to experience such treatment themselves first at the hands of someone who thinks the same way they do, before passing final judgement on the usefullness of such behaviour.

Just as people who are in favour of war might benefit from experiencing it firsthand...instead of cheering from the bleachers.

I believe that reincarnation may actually play a useful role in arranging such scenarios, by the way, but that's a whole other discussion...

For the vengeful, people like Timothy McVie become a handy symbol on which to vent their unreleased fear and hatred. And that was the same problem McVie had himself. He no doubt felt, and still feels, very righteous about his own punishment of those he deemed "evil" and worthy of execution.

Different guy....same basic problem.

- LH

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 12:06 PM

Troll, what a financial attitude you show. In Europe, everyone does pay, through our taxes, for incarceration of those convicted of murder.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:09 PM

I am not sure how the punishment idea got mixed up with exection - but I don't think it belongs there. I do not support Mc Veigh's execution because I believe he needs punishment. The fact that I would like to see a meaningful punishment applied on him is a seprate matter.

I support the execution of McVeigh because it is the rite my society practices for cases of extreme transgression. This act (execution) is a ritual act designed to provide value to society as a whole, in the form of retribution. It says to the condemned, "You have committed a most grevious offense against mankind and will therefore pay mankind's ultimate price." Execution does not solve any problems, it does not make the condemned a better person (directly), it does not necessarily help the victim or victim's family (though some may feel comfort/closure). It is one of the tenets of social justice, in a society that chooses to implement it - and so far, Americans overwhelmingly believe it has value.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:13 PM

Do they? Overwhelmingly? I fear you overstate your case.

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: kendall
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:22 PM

A Rose said in The African Queen, "Nature, Mr.Allnut, is what we were put on the earth to rise above.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:28 PM

Yes, Alex - overwhelmingly. I do not overstate the case. According the Portrait of America (the USA's most widely used opinion polls); 70% of Americans support execution for capital crimes.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:30 PM

No wonder we have such a high murder rate.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM

Well, guest, Just wondering, %Rape is the most humiliating thing a human being can ever endure. It is even more so for males. MacVeigh clearly thinks highly of himself and of his deed. Rape would take that all away.

With some one like MacVeigh, throwing him in the general population would destroy him more than a needle would.

Does that answer your fucking question?

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:36 PM

Well, guest, Just wondering, %Rape is the most humiliating thing a human being can ever endure. It is even more so for males. MacVeigh clearly thinks highly of himself and of his deed. Rape would take that all away.

With some one like MacVeigh, throwing him in the general population would destroy him more than a needle would.

Does that answer your fucking question?

Flame away....

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:39 PM

So Amergin, you're saying that the point of the justice system is to take people down a peg, to put a dent in their self-esteem?

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 02:05 PM

Jed, I understand what you're saying about execution being a rite that exists for the good of society -- not as punishment, not as a way to cure the evil done by the condemned, but as a way to express society's most extreme condemnation of the most extreme forms of criminal behavior. But I think that we need to question whether it truly provides "value to society as a whole, in the form of retribution." Is retribution of any real value? Should society's highest aim in these cases be retribution, or should it be increased understanding of the roots of evil acts like this one? I'm sure I'd be labeled soft on crime for feeling this way, but I don't think "punishment" is really worth much. When we punish violent criminals harshly, they generally turn even more violent. When we kill them (coldly, deliberately, at a point when they no longer represent a threat to us), WE become more violent. I can't claim to have all the answers, but I really think that our whole concept of criminal justice in this society needs to be rethought -- what we have now is not working very well, for anybody.

I say this with the utmost respect for your point of view, by the way. I thank you for not throwing insults or adopting a hostile attitude towards those who disagree with you (wish some others would follow your example).

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,Just Wondering
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 03:52 PM

An interesting response Amergin. It raises even more questions. Would we actually employ, ie pay a person(s) to rape Mr. McVeigh? How would we recruit such a person(s)? Would they be paid by the government and would this punishment be carried out in a government institution under controlled conditions? Or would we throw him to a mob, always assuming of course that there would be present those capable of performing this act? How many times should he be raped in order to degrade him enough? How would we get around the fact that rape is a crime? Would we institutionalize it and make it a regular method of punishment? I guess anything is possible as we have already institutionalized murder (ie, execution), as a legal way of disposing of our problems. Just Wondering....

Subject: Futility of vengeance
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 04:00 PM

"They're selling postcards of the hanging..." (Dylan)

That "strange fruit" thread a few weeks ago was a shocking reminder for me of how recently it was that American trees bore that srange fruit.

If this thread had come first, I would have known that the lynch mob mentality lives on still. Worse, maybe it lurks deep in the psyches of us all. But that's no excuse for indulging it in law. I find it profoundly disturbing that otherwise intelligent people can see the role of a civilised society, acting in the cold light of day, as being to gratify our crudest instincts.

Midchuck said: "the initiator has opted out of civilized society, so others have no ethical restrictions on what they do to him." Maybe Midchuck, or Jed Marum, or someone of that ilk, could say what shallow kind of a community it is that allows a Timothy McVeigh to destroy its values and reduce it to eye-for-an-eye barbarity. Do they really not question, just a little bit, the way Sharia law is applied in Saudi Arabia? (I know the USA and UK governments don't.)

I admit I won't come close, but I'll take my lead from Mrrzy thanks. If it was between Mrrzy and a hate-filled victim snarling retribution, I'd put my money on Mrzzy to be the one to pick up the pieces and make some sense out of the rest of his life. It beggars belief that anyone can favour the latter as a template for communal values. Pity our children.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Willie-O
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 04:01 PM

Well, this is weird and intense.

Some strange rationalizing goes on about this.

Next month when they kill him, the chance of finding more truth about the killing will die too.

He's getting what he wants, alright.

I think the stone-faced SOB has some kind of a sense of values, and he is quite satisfied with the outcome here, because he lives in a fucking comic book world. One of the rationalizations he has made for the bombing is based on "Star Wars" as a moral guide. He points out that before Luke destroys the Death Star, you see that there are people working at desks and so on in the Death Star. They're not hurting anyone directly, but they're part of the infrastructure of the Death Star, so it's right to kill them. Nobody asked him if there was a day care centre on the Death Star; let's say there was. Blowing it up was still something that had to be done, and deserved honour and celebration.

If you live in a fucking fantasy world. Which TM apparently does.

Back here on Earth, though, killing other people is wrong. It just leads to more and worse mayhem and poisons peoples' minds and hearts as they struggle for an appropriate response.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 04:49 PM

Whistle Stop - I believe you've hit the essence of the question when you ask, "I think that we need to question whether it truly provides 'value to society as a whole, in the form of retribution.' Is retribution of any real value?"

My arguement is this; my society has a belief that retribution has value. The plurality of that opinion is an important part of my own support for execution of those convitced of captial crimes. Note I do not try to argue to change minds of those who disagree. I voice my support and I attempt to explain the position.

Fionn - I cannot answer your question, "what shallow kind of a community it is that allows a Timothy McVeigh to destroy its values and reduce it to eye-for-an-eye barbarity" because I disagree with the premise. I do not believe that Timothy McVeigh has destroyed my societies values. And I do not believe that execution, as it is generally applied in the USA is akin to an "eye-for-an-eye barbarity" - I realize that the values you talk about may not be ones you support, but that does not mean they are corrupt or even wrong. And I believe, as I stated above, that retribution is not by itself barbaric.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 04:51 PM

"lets just see how bravely he faces the fate that he has subjected others to"

The chances are that he will "face it bravely" - and the effect of that is going to be to recruit more McVeighs out somewhere in America. That's part of the price paid for capital punishment. A pretty heavy price for the people who will be killed by McVeigh's hero-worshippers.

There was a James Cagney film (Angels with Dirty Faces was it?)in which he was about to be executed for murder. Being a hero, he was all set up to die staunch - then he thought about the kids who thought of him as a hero, so he put on a big act of dying as a coward, pleading for his life and crying out for mercy, to put his admirers off the idea of hero-worshipping him. But somehow I can't see McVeigh having the humanity or compassion to do anything like that. No, he'll die as a toughie. Big deal.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:16 PM

Just to broaden the net here just a bit, do you have any thoughts on what goes on in the heads of some people in response to a figure like this? Evidently, McVeigh has received "hundreds" of letters from women (the article didn't mention men) interested in a "love" relationship with him.

Unless they may be thinking something along the lines of "My love will redeem him", I can't conceive of a reason for such a reaction.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:44 PM

WHistle Stop, you're right. Mine was a knee-jerk reaction to the barbarity of his crime. I'm always against the death-penalty until the next hideous crime occurs (especially if children are involved), and then I have my knee-jerk reflex "Fry the bastard!" but that reflex passes eventually. Some serious food for thought in these postings.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:46 PM

Ditto Seamus - that's been my first reaction many a time. I just hope I'm never part of a society that takes its steer from what goes on in the pit of my stomach, in the heat of the moment!

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Peg
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 02:44 AM

Willie-O: very well said.

I had the chance to interview John Waters (the weird filmmaker) several years ago and asked him about his interest in serial killer memorabilia, etc. He has some very interesting views on crime and punishment and has read more "true crime" type literature than I would have thought humanly possible.

One thing he said which really stood out for me at the time, and which much of this thread has made me reflect upon...is that, in the days when he first became interested in the events surrdounding contemporary mass murderers, said killers *went to trial.*

Nowadays, he said, they all kill themselves. And so our fascination with such figures has changed. We no longer get to watch the wheels of justice turn. We watch these monsters go out in a blaze of glory which is pretty much of their own design. Even in the case of McVeigh, who may have thought for a time he would not get caught, but who surely knew that, once he did, he would face execution.

So I think it is very astute to assume that Mr. McVeigh sees his death as an act of martyrdom; not something being done TO him, but something he has chosen. And to give him that power, that satisfaction, may well be something his victims (and their families) would balk at.

That said, I still think state-sanctioned murder is very, very wrong.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 10:37 AM

Willie-O - You are clearly right that Timothy McVie lives in a fantasy world, and that that led him to commit (and justify in his own mind) a hideous crime.

The thing that struck me while I was reading your comments, though is this...virtually everybody lives in a fantasy world. My workaholic father does. My paranoid mother does. Everybody I know does, in one sense or another. I do. I am well aware of some of my tendencies to fantasize, but am also probably quite unaware of some of the others that I take for granted, and which lead to my usual typical behaviour.

The only difference with Timothy McVie is this...his fantasies happened to be on a much more dangerous level than is the case with most of us, and he acted them out where many would not have gone that far.

I kid you not. We all walk around in our own state of unreality, and take it ever so seriously. Look at the present state of the world, and you can see where it is leading us...as a race of semi-intelligent beings.

The world doesn't need another shopping mall or another casino...it needs clean air, clean water, open land, old growth forests, renewable agriculture, space reserved for wild animals and plants...and all that could be done...but we are way too busy walking around in our collective fantasy world, doing business as usual. It's Fantasy Island on a very large scale....

Ebbie - It's not surprising that any number of women have written love letters to McVie. It just shows there are a lot of really lonely people out there, sitting in their lonely little lives, and trying desperately to find some sense of meaning to fill their emptiness. McVie is "famous" (or infamous...), so he gets the attention of some of them. It happens with anyone who is famous, whether they are a movie star or a serial murderer. It's sad and pathetic, but it's not surprising.

I'm sure that some of them have convinced themselves that he is a martyr. Some may even think he's innocent! (anything is possible) Some may think they can redeem him. Etc....

Some people who feel that they are "outsiders", irrevocably isolated from the rest of society, may well identify with someone like McVie.

I remember when the O.J. thing was happening...virtually everyone around here believed he was guilty...based on forensic evidence, and his thoroughly incriminating behaviour, both before and after Nicole's murder. And yet, there were 2 individuals I knew who were ABSOLUTELY convinced that he was innocent, that he had been framed, that there was a massive police conspiracy to fake evidence, involving a very large number of people on a high level...and so on.

I have no idea how those 2 people came to such a conclusion (it was not for reasons of "race"), but they did. And they never wavered from it. Like I said, anything is possible.

(To some people it is very appealing to take an unpopular or unusual position on a given issue, because it makes them feel like they are smarter than most people, because they know something that the others don't. Along that line, I have a friend who only likes music that virtually NOBODY else he knows likes...it has happened too many times now to be a mere coincidence...he enjoys being an outsider, and it makes him feel superior, I believe, on an intellectual and artistic level.)

I have also met a few elderly Germans (all very nice people in a general sense) who have gone on believing to this day that Hitler was a very good man who was led astray by various corrupt underlings, such as Himmler, Goering, etc., and that he was doing wonderful things for Germany, but it presumably got ruined by those underlings.

So, like I said, anything is possible. Depends on the person's initial frame of reference...as to how they happen to be seeing and interpreting reality...from their little vantage point on the world stage.

In the final analysis, it has little or nothing to do with whether the person is "evil" or not, but rather with what the person is or is not aware of. Basically "good" people can commit the most evil of acts under certain circumstances...and feel justified. It happens every day in the most ordinary of families and situations, all over this world, and never gets on the news at all.

- LH

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,Seth in China
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 11:02 AM

I think of Sirhan Sirhan, in his prison cell in California, down now for 32 years and counting. I hope that some readers of this post will say " Who the hell is Sirhan Sirhan?" He was just some confused, Palestinian man, about McVeigh's age, who also thought he had found the answer to his question, and through a heap of twisted logic, decided that the message coming back was that he needed to take the life of Robert Kennedy. So he did. Changed the course of American history, I do believe. At that time, capital punishment did not exist in the U.S., so they put Sirhan Sirhan away. Did America grieve for Kennedy? Oh, my God,yes< but they couldn't legally execute this guy ( I think the Kennedy murder was the only crime he ever did)so what could they do? McVeigh is a criminal, to be sure, but a messianic one, not the kind that most prisons are full of.The people who have the most horrific experience of prison are those who committed capital crimes out of emotion or passion. For those folks to go from outside to inside without any experience of jail, prison, or prison "culture" it's really horrific. For people who thirst for vengeance and retribution, I can think of nothing harsher and more difficult to contemplate than an entire lifetime spent in a U.S. prison, particularly for a man whose greatest wish is to be remembered. To be locked down that way is to put the strongest curse on somebody "forget you,motherfucker" When they kill Tim McVeigh, it will be quick and quiet after a huge media extravaganza. Whatever he has to say, people will not get the cathartic experience that they crave. I say punish the man by permanent separation, till he grows old and grey and crazy, and those of us who hope for these things, will hope that the time will prove that no one is beyond remorse and redemption, even this lost soul. He is not a scapegoat, in the sense that he did the crime, but people are using him as a screen to focus a whole lot of that good ol'American dark energy, but you know what? Killin' that boy ain't gonna get the haint off ya. Seth from China

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 11:10 AM

I agree, Seth and others - that the best punishment for Timothy is lock the door, throw away the key - solitary. I still think there is worth in society's ability to exorcise this 'evil' through the rite of execution. And I care more about the justice served for society then for a just result for Timothy.

This has been a good thread. Thanks y'all for the thoughts. I do appreciate hearing all points of view.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Troll
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:51 PM

I have long advocated just that punishment Jed, and have been roundly castigated for it; psychological damage, cruel and unusual, and all that.
But I agree with you.
Now how about this as an addition; that the families of the victims be exempt from all taxes. After all, how fair is it for them to have to contribute to supporting the life of someone who deprived them of the life of a loved one? The prisoner gets food, shelter, recreation, and medical care; all paid for by taxes.
It is sometimes difficult for the family of the victims to provide these things for themselves, but they must contribute, through their taxes, to the upkeep of the very person who hurt them.
Think about that.

troll

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: kendall
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 01:50 PM

We must be careful about cruel and unusual punishment, remember, it is forbidden by the constitution.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Indy Lass
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 01:56 PM

A lot of us are discussing the generalities of executing lawbreakers who take away peoples lives or loved ones. This case involves a man who for whatever sick reason took away the lives and/or loved ones of 160-something families who were going about their daily lives and never saw death coming. They were all innocent of what made this man angry enough to do this bombing in his own "eye for an eye" rationale. Should we respond in kind by killing him (it would really have to be 168 times so to speak)? Or should we turn to the victims still alive but suffering and angry and ask them what they need in this situation to help them move ahead with their healing? It would be interesting to find out what each one would want. Maybe we should keep McVeigh alive long enough for each family to have their say about this matter and tailor the results to suit thier needs. Just my two cents...

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 02:12 PM

LH, I wish you would spell his name right. McVie indicates two of the original members of Fleetwood Mac, a rather harmless pop group, that indeed gave me some fine moments of toe-tapping pleasure in my wastrel youth. McVeigh, on the other hand, is a multiple murderer. I don't think we should confuse the two.

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Songster Bob
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 02:14 PM

I'd like to go back to the "organ farm" suggestion, because it's one that has shown up in sci-fi stories from time to time, and modern medicine is approaching the point where it could be possible.

The problem is that, as people in our society become more and more inured to the idea that someone else is there to provide "spare parts," then the crimes for which this punishment is the accepted punishment will gradually become lower and lower in their "threshhold," so that eventually, you could be sentenced to dismemberment for what are now misdemeanors.

Talk about a controlled society! Too many parking tickets, and bam! there go your eyes, or your spleen, and you'll have no recourse to remedy, since you were one of those who helped lower the bar for which crimes led to which punishments. Wouldn't that give the government a real hold on your short hairs?

Literally!

Bob C.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 03:57 PM

Like nearly everyone else in the country, I have half-followed the McVeigh story since the beginning. Last week, I went to a search engine to try to find a current picture of the Federal Building, being curious as to whether they were able to rebuild it. I seem to have missed the news about them having torn it down and placed a monument where it used to be. Several interesting links that came up during this search, however, made me question everything that I hadn't missed in the news, most importantly how in the world a single truck bomb could have caused so much damage. The answer from the experts is: it couldn't have.

Based on the links below, I now have serious doubts as to whether McVeigh was involved at all. I rarely visit the Mudcat and have no interest in conspiracy theories, but based on the vindictive tone of most of the posts above, I thought it proper to point out that there are still very many unanswered questions regarding this case, and in my mind it is not clear that McVeigh is to blame entirely, if at all.

Information for inquiring minds:
Thirty OKC Questions

The Fed knew an attack was imminent

Bomb Analysis by Brig. General Partin -- Disturbing Conclusions

Much more exist.

I don't intend to revisit this thread any time soon, and in any event with the imminent execution of McVeigh, these issues will surely be buried forever. I simply ask you to consider that there is much left unanswered here, and putting McVeigh to death is One Sure Way to keep it so.

Think and wonder.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 04:50 PM

Alex - Sorry about that. It's McVeigh, right? I have obviously been suffering from a mental block (or fatigue) on that particular spelling. (Strange...I'm usually so meticulous on stuff like that...maybe it's the musicians' names I was remembering.). I guess I was in a hurry or something.

Troll - I find your suggestion about making victims of such violent crimes exempt from all taxes a bit odd. Why all taxes? And why only them?

If they're disabled, then they should get a disability pension.

God knows, there are times when I would like to be exempt from taxes! And for any number of good reasons.

Like me, a lot of people are opposed to the building of more nuclear weapons and/or nuclear power plants. Why shouldn't those people be exempt from the part of their taxes which goes toward that particular industry?

I am extremely opposed to the present government of Ontario, its whole vicious social policy, and its whole friggin' attitude toward the public, and I DIDN'T vote for them! Why shouldn't I be exempt from all Ontario taxes till they are out of office? They are a dictatorship until the next election, and they DID NOT receive a majority of the votes cast!!! (They received a plurality. More people didn't want them than did, but they still beat out the other 2 parties in a majority of ridings...the usual story around here.)

I am opposed to the present penal system in either the USA or Canada, and consider it counterproductive. Why shouldn't I be exempt from funding it?

I'll tell you why. It's too damned complicated to figure out such exemptions, to apportion them out fairly, to determine if they're really justified, and on what basis, etc., etc., ad infinitum.

It's a totally unworkable idea in a practical sense.

Besides, if the government gave you back the fraction of a penny that it costs you to keep Timothy McVeigh (or any other particular felon) in jail for a year, it would be so small that you wouldn't be able to see it with a industrial sized magnifying glass.

I wish I could say the same for the portion of your taxes that goes toward high tech weaponry...like nuclear missiles. That chunk you would be able to see just fine, and those are the potential instruments of genocide.

So that's my philosophical response to your tax proposal. I know that neither one of us, of course, is going to get what he wants out of this situation.

- LH

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,El Gringo Viego
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 10:54 PM

WHAT IF THEY GAVE AN EXECUTION AND NOBODY CAME?

Let's all stay away from it, stop talking about it and let him die all alone. Gringo

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,Seth from China
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 04:41 AM

THis is only half in jest. In a tribal society, someone would have the role of acting out the feelings of the tribe about a member who has transgressed all the boundaries. We don't have that in our culture of tangled myths and religions, but Americans, in particular, as opposed to Canadians, who share the same part of the continent, have something riding them and they need to get that monkey, that loa, off their back. A lot of crazy stuff happens in the U.S. that really doesn't happen much in other places, and it's not just because guns are readily available. We are a restless, itchy people. Some of my ancestors were on the Mayflower,(the ones that weren't getting away from the potato famine and the Welsh coal mines,) I know that if my homeland is anywhere it's in the U.S., but I felt a stranger in my home town, and I've felt that way every place I've lived in the U.S. I don't think I'm a special case-I think that's what it's like to be an American. Almost all of us are children of one diaspora or another. Well fed and housed to be sure for most of us, but still...something seems to make us want to kill and hurt each other. People seem to think that capital punishment is valuable in that it provides a form of closure, but the condemned rarely play the part well. Professional actors could play the roles of condemned men for maximum effect-we had an actor for president and people really loved him.- why not use an actor for people to hate? The problem with most people about to be executed is that they don't often give us what we want and need-remorse, apologies, pleas for forgiveness, or barring that, some appropriatly dramatic ending to their lives and to the suffering of everyone else. Most killers are pretty ordinary people, they just live and then they die, whether by the hand of the state or not. I say announce that he (or she) is going to be officially dead at a specific time, and then people can tune in and watch Wesley Snipes,Laurence Fishburne,John Turturo,Joe Pesci, Steve Buscemi, Harvey Keitel or some other actor do the death scene for them. Our culture is addicted to images, so why not use it. After the execution, the miscreant is declared dead, we see a coffin going into a hearse on TV, and everyone can go back to what they were doing before. The real miscreant is in a prison somewhere, where he or she can pursue legal appeals, DNA testing without a death date time constraint. I'm surprised they're not doing it already. Seth from China

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Troll
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:06 AM

Seth, a rather novel idea. I've suggested before that they simply be put in solitary to live out their lives, make appeals, whatever but no one seems to like the idea much.
Your way, it's all nice and sanitary and no one needs to feel guilty from a societal point of view. I wonder if people would try as hard to get someone released if they knew that he wasn't really going to die?

troll

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 05:36 PM

I'd like to interduce my son Jim-Bob, he's a rapist fer the county - say hello, Jim-Bob...oh, don't mind him, the boy's shy...

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Devilmaster
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 09:27 PM

A good book to read into the insights of the OKBOMB case, is a book called 'No Heroes' by Danny Coulson. Danny is a former FBI agent and the first commander of the Hostage Rescue Team for the FBI.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,Seth from China
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 11:05 PM

Yeah, I'm working on a unified field theory of American craziness, a combination of porn, WWF, Jerry Springer, Jesus and grunge/rap hostility (none of it available in China) if people felt the need for revenge and retribution, they could just go to stomphisspine.com, and virtually experience the focus of their rage getting punished hundreds of ways, and they could run the video as often as they wanted. You want to see Timothy McVeigh get flayed, burned alive, drawn and quartered, fed to cro codiles, sodomized by a whole cell block while he screams for mercy-or have him in a Jerry Springer format trying to defend himself, while family members of the killed and injured try to assault him.? Have him grovel and beg for mercy while the audience hoots and jeers? Americans want to see the bad guy PUNISHED, not put to friggin' sleep like your best old sheep dog. Nobody wants to rub Tim's ears and say "it's okay, big guy." Just boot up, toot up, and U-PIC the PAIN! In China, it's not done this way. About once weekly, there is something on the news about someone who has received the death penalty. We see a man in shackles, his head bowed in shame. His family is in the background, weeping with shame and disgrace. After this, the prisoner disappears through a doorway and no more is heard about him. I think that he might get a bullet in the head ten minutes after the sentence, but I don't know enough about the Chinese criminal justice system to say that is a fact. But once the guards take him through the doors, it's over. this would never never work in the U.S., where it's hard to get anyone to say the are ashamed about anything.

Seth

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 11:27 PM

Seth - You raise a fascinating point when you say "why not use an actor for people to hate?" (and publicly punish the actor, so the people who hate him can feel satisfied...).

That is what the entire world of professional "wrestling" (the WWF and their competitors) is based upon!

And it is probably the single most vulgar, tasteless form of public entertainment in the world at this time...another example of the very dark side of the American dream turned into a nightmare.

The movie "Man In The Moon" about the late Andy Kaufman (did I spell that right?) presented a lot of insights into that strange and twisted world of wrestling and what goes on there, and why.

As you suggest, the audience is provided with actors who play the most despicable of villains, thus whipping up the wrestling fans into a frenzy of rage, hatred, and blood lust...and catharsis.

It speaks volumes for the state of frustration and denial that a population has to be in for this stuff to be so popular. It is directly comparable to the gladiatorial obscenities that were daily faire in ancient Rome, only we have laws against publicly committing murder in a sports arena. If we didn't, we would be witnessing such murder on a regular basis, I am sure. We've learned a little, it seems, in the last 2,000 years...but not nearly enough.

Well, when you bring up a population on the notion that watching more inane TV shows and buying more plastic stuff they absolutely don't need at the mall are all they really need to find fulfillment...no wonder some of them lose touch with reality and go off the deep end. They've been lied to all their lives.

A society that executes people in an electric chair or by a chemical injection is itself as emotionally ill as the criminals it is executing...in my opinion.

There are no easy answers to such situations, and executing people won't stop the violence, it will increase it...by at least a factor of ONE in each case.

Murder is murder. I don't care who does it. Or why. It's still murder. We are all capable of it. That doesn't mean it is a good or a necessary thing. It's an act of weakness. Those who commit it are afraid. They may not know they're afraid, but they are.

- LH

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Troll
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 11:41 PM

OK Little Hawk, it's a sign of weakness. So what do we do with these weak murderers.
Explaining an action does not excuse it.

troll

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 12:38 AM

We lock them away in a smallish box and feed them through the hole. Remember all those dungeon scenes from "B" movies? Subtract the dripping water and the rats and you basically have it.

Alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 04:47 AM

Ah... American civilisation...

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Fiolar
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 08:36 AM

I understand in China the state sends the family the bill for the bullet?

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,Seth from China
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 08:40 AM

Yes indeed, it's not just TM who is living in fantasyland I'm coming to believe that it's the dominant experience for Americans, and his action and demeanor are pure wish fulfilment for millions, who want to punish and kill him , except for those few minutes a week when they wish that THEY had planted that bomb. Seth from China

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Fiolar
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 08:43 AM

Re my original posting, according to newspaper reports, the judge to whom the request was made to transmit the execution scenes on the net has refused permision.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 02:49 PM

What's the betting it gets out anyway?

That snuff-tape is going to be worth big money, someone's going to find a way of hacking into the closed circuit broadcast.

In any case, the movie will be out soon enough.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 07:25 PM

Troll - Well, I said it wasn't gonna be easy, didn't I?

I think the best thing we can do at the moment is arrest them, try them, imprison them, and keep them imprisoned as long as they are still dangerous. I am not in favour of treating them in any deliberately sadistic way while they're there...just keep them of of reach of doing any more harm, that's all. And give them something to do while they're there, and then they can make some kind of contribution in repaying society. I don't care if it costs some money to keep them. Everything costs money. And I will never agree with all of it, nor will you or anyone else. I accept that.

On a longer term sense...I think that if everyone had access to a decent job, a decent place to live, and didn't start life with several strikes against them (which many people do), then the incidence of crime would drop drastically. There are huge reforms needed in modern society around these issues.

If there wasn't so much bullying in schools, then you wouldn't have these incidents of kids shooting other kids. If there wasn't so much dehumanization in family life (due to many factors...mostly driven by money and materialism), then not so many kids would become bullies...or assassins of bullies. There's a lot of alienation out there. I see far less of it in simpler societies that I have visited, where money and consumer goods are not so dominant over people's lives.

The necessary reforms are not happening because people in general are serving money rather than serving life (human and otherwise). People are guilty of that at both the top and the bottom of society, but it's those at the top who must show leadership if real change is to occur.

If there were more equality in a material sense, you would have far less crime and hatred in society. I don't mean exact equality...I just mean a smaller gap between rich and poor...and eliminating desperate poverty through social programs such as housing projects and JOB creation and educational assistance. I'm proposing a genuine "war on poverty" (remember that phrase?). Poverty should be seen as simply unacceptable in a modern society...as it is unacceptable in a family that one child should be overfed while 2 or 3 others are virtually starved by the same parents.

These are enormous issues. One could write a number of 1,000 page books about them, and only make a beginning.

You can call it socialism if you want. I just call it sanity.

I fear I will have to reincarnate once or twice more before I see much done about it, however. Today's people are the hapless slaves of money for money's sake alone. And from there stems the crime, the insanity, the material excess, and the hopelessness.

Timothy McVeigh is a tiny individual symptom of a society that has gone functionally insane.

- LH

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 07:47 PM

We all just see a part of the world, and a little bit of time, but we tend to extrapolate from that limited experience, and assume that that's how it's got to be and that's how it always is everywhere. And it's not true. There are always worse ways it could be - and better ways as well.

I sometimes think that Americans especially may tend to think that, if they haven't been able to find a better way, that better way can't be found. Not just Americans, it goes with being consciously the biggest and the richest and the strongest, and I imagine the Romans and the Chinese and to some extent the English had it in their day.

And the reason that is relevant here is that, apart from countries which are either desperately poor, or rich in a despotic and feudal way, very few governments nowadays carry out ritualised state killings. And the sky doesn't fall.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 09:08 PM

Indeed, the references to China's executions are interesting. In China, the executed have become quite a business - so much so that it is common practice now for them to be shot, and instantly put on a life-support machine so that their eyes and other expensive organs can be ripped out for sale before the blood stops flowing or the brain working.

A fine example of civilisation, and one I'm sure that the members of this forum would agree should be followed by the US...

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,Seth from China
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 06:08 PM

In reference to your statement about Chinese execution practices- could you document that? Thanks Seth

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 09:13 PM

Maybe I shouldn't even continue this thread it has gone on long enough, but-
This thread has been alternatingly enlightened and then frightening.
The things a society values are engrained in it's people. Everyone has experienced culture shock at some point while encountering seemingly odd ,sometimes unsettling, attributes of another culture. Some cultures think a dog should never be in the house unless it's on the dinner table. (gasp)I Love my dog, he is family!Cannibals ,headhunters, and mobsters are not viewed as barbaric by each other.
Children of abusive parents are statistically more likely to become abusive parents themselves.
A fool gives full vent to his rage, the wise man holds back.
Voilence begets voilence
Tommorrow starts where today left off.
If you don't want to live in a voilent culture- don't condon voilence. That especially includes voilence on the part of the state. There will still be TMs and Ted Bundy's, But, it will be a gentler society as a whole and YOU WON'T HAVE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS.
I sympathize with those who have lost and have to do battle with their pain and rage over the cruelty inflicted by TM. I pray they find peace. Society should be seeking peace as a whole, and that should include ending the voilence.- DJH

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 10:40 PM

DJH - Very well said indeed. Mercy is among the highest of virtues. You can't wait for others to show it. Your only possible contribution to the world in that respect is to show it yourself...when the opportunity arises. And God protect us all from the unmerciful, in low or in high places.

Seth from China - I have found your comments to be very perceptive and interesting, and I am curious as to what you are doing in China, and what your experience has been like over there... Can you please email me at [e-mail] and we could talk some about it. I've always been very interested in both China and Japan, but I have not visited either at this point.

- LH

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 11:54 PM

"In recent years, credible reports have alleged that organs from some executed prisoners were removed, sold, and transplanted. Officials have confirmed that executed prisoners are among the sources of organs for transplant but maintain that consent is required from prisoners or their relatives before organs are removed. There is no national law governing organ donations, but a Ministry of Health directive explicitly states that buying and selling human organs and tissues is not allowed. In February 1998, two Chinese nationals were charged in a foreign court with attempting to sell human organs allegedly taken from the bodies of executed prisoners; the charges were dropped in November. At least one Western country has asked repeatedly for information on government investigations of alleged organ trafficking, but to date no information has been released. There have been credible reports in the past that patients from abroad had undergone organ transplant operations on the mainland, using organs removed from executed criminals."

Quote taken from This article.

Amnesty International.

B.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 11:56 PM

A-hem...

Quote taken from This Article

B.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Kelticgrasshopper
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 05:09 PM

Doing this sort of thing ie talking about him endlessly is just what he hopes will happen.. More sicko's will make him a HERO and more inocents will die in horrific ways.. He deserves to die silently alone with KNOWONE WATCHING!!!! or CARING

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 06:17 PM

The reason for "doing this sort of thing ie talking about him endlessly" is because the people and government of the USA decided to go back to executing people.

The result is that attention is focussed on the killing ritual, and undoubtedly, for some people, this is an element in bringing them to commit the crimes that end in this public killing. Timothy McVeigh was/is probably such a person.

There are strong ground for believing that the overall effect of capital punishment in a country is not to deter murder, but to encourage it. That would seem to be borne out if you compare the murder rate in countries which have the death penalty and countries which have abolished it.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Kelticgrasshopper
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 06:31 PM

True again.. In many ways Timothy McVeigh is asking to be killed in order to carry out some sick sort of master plan for creating an "American Hero." It may, in after thought, have been better to put him in solitary confinement for the rest of his life or better yet put him into the general population of one of the Federal Prisons.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Troll
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 06:48 PM

So it's society's fault. That figures.
Heaven forbid that anyone, even a McVeigh, should be solely responsible for his actions.
It's always someone elses fault.

troll

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 07:40 PM

Nobody is solely responsible for their actions. We are social creatures, and everything we do effects other peiople.

That's not to say that if you do something wrong you can claim it's not really your fault. We have to accept responsibility for the results of our own actions. And that means we can't go and shuffle off our share of the responsibility for what goes wrong in our society if we have contributed to bringing it about.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Kelticgrasshopper
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 08:08 PM

Troll.. Timothy McVeigh has said that he was responsible for his actions.. Are you implying that somehow something in his childhood caused him to blow up a building kill babies, and inocent adults and its the fault of society??

Come on now..

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Troll
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 09:06 AM

" Timothy McVeigh is a tiny individual symptom of a society that has gone functionally insane.

- LH "
My statement was based on this remark. I do not think that society is to blame for the McVeighs of this world but many obviously do.
" Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23-Apr-01 - 07:40 PM

Nobody is solely responsible for their actions. We are social creatures, and everything we do effects other peiople." ,br.Kevin, When I say that people are solely responsible for their actions, I don't mean that they don't impact society, which is what you seem to have understood.
Keltic grasshopper, I was saying the exact opposite. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that point. Our society has somehow gotten to the point where to understand an action is to excuse it; hence the idea that Mcveighs actions are somehow societies fault and therefore he's not really to blame.
I don't buy that for a minute.

troll

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Fiolar
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 09:23 AM

According to an article in the British Sunday newspaper the Observer's magazine supplement, the fact that he fought in the Gulf War killing at least two Iraqui snipers changed him. His home life was also disturbed. Incidentally it is not the murderer who suffers, it's the victims, their relatives and the relatives of the killers who have to live with the consequences of the actions which result. When McVeigh is dust, his sister and parents still have to try and survive.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:45 PM

Troll - I am not saying McVeigh isn't responsible for his actions, and for those actions I would imprison him, probably for life. I am saying that his behaviour is partially a result of the society he grew up in...and the way he reacted to that society. That is equally true of all of us. Most of us react in a far less dangerous manner than he did. Thus, most of us do not need to be imprisoned in order to protect the rest.

The real sticking point here, I think, is that many people see Timothy McVeigh as evil. I don't. I see his actions as evil. I see him as ill...insane in my terms of what the word means (maybe not in yours). Not that he didn't understand what he was doing in a literal sense...but that he didn't understand life in a larger sense...or he wouldn't have blown up a building full of strangers.

I don't see people as evil because I judge the act, not the person. That doesn't mean I won't arrest, proscecute and imprison the person if it is a destructive act. That also doesn't mean I won't defend myself if someone breaks into my place in the night and attacks me...hell, I might even kill him in the heat of the moment...but not because he is evil...simply because I have a normal moral duty to protect myself and my property.

I might feel hatred toward that person afterward too...you know why? Not because he's evil, but because I am human, I am emotional, and I can get very scared, and I can relive that fear in the form of hatred and be haunted by it. As long as I can't shed the fear, I will carry a charge of hatred in me and it will poison me from within. It won't undo the harm that was done, but will perpetuate the damage.

These are the kind of instinctive feelings that only a handful of the most enlightened people in history have risen above, and I have got a long way to go on that. I have barely begun. But I have seen the snow gleaming on a very distant mountain top, and I aspire toward it.

To blame only society for Timothy McVeigh's behaviour would be foolish, but to completely discount society's influence on shaping his life toward an insane, violent act would also be naive. It's not a case of black or white...it's shades of gray.

I hope that makes it a little clearer what I meant.

And if not, well, "you're right from your side and I'm right from mine", to quote Bob Dylan.

- LH

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:26 PM

I think essentiallly we're in agreement here, troll. I get concerned at the tendency people have to assume that the responsibility for the harm that individuals do stop with that individual, and that if we try to find out if there were things about society that fed into that person's actions, that's just a matter of making excuses.

And the reason that matters is that it's only by finding out those kind of things that we can make it less likely that it'll all happen over again.

So far as I can see Timothy McVeigh was an ordinary enough young man from an ordinary enough background. Somewhere along the line he turned into someone capable of that bombing, and of shrugging of the results withn the kind of detached dehumanised language that army press officers use - "collateral damage". So what happened?

Incidentally Here is a piece about it all by a namesake of his, a Scottish journalist called Tracey McVeigh

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:49 PM

Well, yeah. And it's funny how easily those army press officers can say "collateral damage" isn't it? They've been well trained to condone or explain away mass murder, haven't they?

After all, "the end does justify the means"...doesn't it? And you've "gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet"...don't you?

Shrug.

Funny, though, I never thought of people as eggs...

- LH

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 01 - 12:19 PM

Well, I told you so.

FBI coverup

Won't you belligerent monkeys feel stupid when he's shown to be innocent.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: mousethief
Date: 11 May 01 - 01:27 PM

I know I will. My entire concept of my own intelligence is based on the outcome of his case.

alex

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 01 - 02:22 PM

At least you'll be alive.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,ok ok ok ok
Date: 11 May 01 - 02:43 PM

Current Okie been here 5 years and frequent visits before.

A lot of people here believe there were several other people involved and that these will never be caught when Tim Mc Veigh dies.

Why? There is a strong narcotics connection between 1 Waco Koresh &co AND the Law enforcement agencies. 2 It is being reported that no US Federal Officer was at work on the day of the Explosion. 3 There have been many instances of good ole boy rednecks down here expressing sympathy for the Davidians and we are talking a bunch of people here. 4 There are proven links between rightwing extreemists and the state of Oklahoma 5 There is evidence of 'Outings' in the boonies complete with Bluegrass Bands Hoods and Drugs. 6 There is also a proven link between these latter loonies and Oklahoma's own Polygamists and whaddya know Koresh was a ...... polygamist as well as a narco user. 7 When did you ever read of a real BIG drug bust in the State of Oklahoma? - Laflor Co Oklahoma is a BIG producer of Pot...and other things ....staging area??

The only agency that could investigate this would be the Chinese since they COULD not be getting paid off for drug deals that went down 6 years ago in the State of Oklahoma USA.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,jerryt
Date: 11 May 01 - 02:45 PM

The wackos don't need a martyr. Just put a bullet in the back of his head and bury him. Don't even bother to announce it to the media.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 01 - 03:46 PM

Current Okie--

A while ago in this thread I posted links to some of the information you related, although the drug connection was news to me. The most plausible theory I've found is that the Feds blew up the building to destroy documents which would have implicated them in Waco, much as I don't want to believe that.

Another interesting read is from McVeigh's lawyer, who had petitioned for THE EXACT DOCUMENTS for months that the FBI only now "suddenly" found. Maybe the new administration is afraid that the whole thing would come out after they killed a (perhaps) innocent man and would be far worse than revealing the existence of the documents now. In any event, I'm sure no FBI people will be put in prison, let alone be put to death, for denying McVeigh a fair trial.

This whole thing has me alert and afraid of "our" government. I, for one, won't be afraid if there's suddenly a war somewhere else to shy media attention away from this debacle.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:11 PM

Only thread with "Timothy McVeigh" in it, so I guess this goes here. Tim McVeigh

My name is Bill Bean I work in the film industry. I have information relevant to the Oklahoma City bombing. I did not approach anyone at the time of the trial because I did not understand the relevance of what I had. I am submitting this to Congressman Rohrabacher's office because of his stated interest in having hearings about what actually happened.

On August 3, 1993 I was given a tour of Camp Grafton North Dakota. Camp Grafton is a military training academy for National Guard and army reserve personnel....

First) this is Timothy McVeigh; there is no question about that. Videotaped from two feet away, every feature down to his crooked teeth is clearly evident. Concerning his teeth, his two front teeth, central incisors, are straight, those on either side, the lateral incisors, slant in. This tape was shown to a dentist who said, "This is as unique as a fingerprint!"

Second) A voice analysis was done on the soldier in the tank. His voice was compared to the known voice of Timothy McVeigh, taken from a 60 Minutes interview. It is an exact match. Various electronic and human tests were conducted to reach this conclusion....

...After May of 1992 he was never again in uniform on any base anywhere, never again part of the military....

http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/okc_bombing_tim_mcveigh_on_august_3_1993.htm

So it appears the govt lied about McVeigh's military service. The puny little fertilizer bomb created a crater in front of the Murrah bldg in Oklahoma City. The bldg was blown outwards, more bombs were found inside, undetonated bombs. Immediately after the blast, congress passed Clinton's Omnibus anti-terrorism bill, which had failed to pass the first time around. Government-sponsored terrorism works. McVeigh was handling munitions for the military a year after he was "discharged." Video evidence. Amazing.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:55 PM

Unconvincing. The eyebrows are different in every shot. Not a match.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:01 PM

I don't believe Anon Guests anyway.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:07 PM

Dental and voice print analysis is more persuasive than an observation about eyebrows. Hustler magazine is going to run this story in 2 months. They are noted (after quite a few lawsuits) for checking everything multiple times. They're convinced this is the real deal. It'll be interesting.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: number 6
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:15 PM

Go back and stick to the 9/11 thread Guest.

biLL

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:30 PM

Nah, that's McVeigh. Page 2 of the comparisons. This site is going to post the voice print comparison graphs, they said, but the front teeth, nose, eyes...it's the same guy.

And this is PART of 9-11. Government-sponsored terrorism. The Bush/Clinton crime organization.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:34 PM

*rolling my eyes*

here we go again!

(NO! the building was NOT 'blown outwards')

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Becca72
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:31 AM

Oh, well if "Hustler" is running the story it MUST be right!

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:34 AM

The DO frequently have an inside view of things...

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:26 AM

SOME of the building may have been blown outwards: the result of overpressures and shock waves bouncing off interior walls, other buildings, and so on. But the ORIGINAL shock wave and overpressure came from the EXTERIOR of the building -- there were no charges inside (apart from a few pistol cartridges, etc. from the FBI and building guards).

And I find "Hustler" to be such an unimpeachable source that I'll believe it without even bothering to find an issue.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:05 AM

Why exactly have you come to a music site with this? Are you a member?

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:11 AM

If someone were sitting outside my home in a car with the engine running and looking at my house I would go out and ask them what the hell they were doing.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:14 AM

"If someone were sitting outside my home in a car with the engine running and looking at my house I would go out and ask them what the hell they were doing. "

It would give me the creeps. Hell, I'd phone the cops.

biLL

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:16 AM

That was me up above.

biLL

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Skivee
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:14 PM

Mr, Bean claims to be involved in the film industry, yet his video looks alot like something shot with a small personal video camera.
A professional videographer Would not shoot with nearly that amount of "bobbing and weaving" in their images, the resolution of the shot is low, there doesn't seem to be any story being told in the shot, and, oh, yeah, the guy does not look like MacVeigh.
Plus the guy's text, which he has mostly cut and pasted from his own website, sounds like a run-of-the-mill aluminum hat club "They are watching me" paranoid scree.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST,The Dreaded Anti-Guest
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 01:02 PM

Mr. Beam, that is not a tank, it is a Bradley Fighting Vehicle.

It is possible to pause the YouTube video, examine the face of the young solder, and compare it with a photograph of Timothy McVeigh. That is not Timothy McVeigh. The general shape of the face is the same, but the eyes and the mouth are different, the voice is not the same, and the soldier is younger than McVeigh, much more than could be accounted for by the intevening two years.

Mr. Beam (what was the first name? Jim?) is another incarnation of the GUEST who started the David Lynch 9/11 thread and other conspiracy theory threads.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:16 PM

Has the Twilight Zone music kicked in yet?

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:38 PM

It's a lead-pipe cinch that nobody's going to be able to ask McVeigh whether it's him or not. Perhaps someday our federal and state governments will realize that dead men can't answer questions, and that the answers they may be able to provide are worth the expense of keeping them alive.

Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:01 AM

Brigadier General Benton K. Partin, U.S. Air Force, retired, did the best bit of investigation on the blast. He concluded the fertilizer bomb was a diversion. The damage was done from the inside. His research is posted on the internet.

And here's one of the better overviews of the event:

http://www.wealth4freedom.com/ReflectionOK.html