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Timothy McVeigh
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:01 AM Brigadier General Benton K. Partin, U.S. Air Force, retired, did the best bit of investigation on the blast. He concluded the fertilizer bomb was a diversion. The damage was done from the inside. His research is posted on the internet. And here's one of the better overviews of the event: http://www.wealth4freedom.com/ReflectionOK.html |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:38 PM It's a lead-pipe cinch that nobody's going to be able to ask McVeigh whether it's him or not. Perhaps someday our federal and state governments will realize that dead men can't answer questions, and that the answers they may be able to provide are worth the expense of keeping them alive. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:16 PM Has the Twilight Zone music kicked in yet? |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,The Dreaded Anti-Guest Date: 19 Dec 06 - 01:02 PM Mr. Beam, that is not a tank, it is a Bradley Fighting Vehicle. It is possible to pause the YouTube video, examine the face of the young solder, and compare it with a photograph of Timothy McVeigh. That is not Timothy McVeigh. The general shape of the face is the same, but the eyes and the mouth are different, the voice is not the same, and the soldier is younger than McVeigh, much more than could be accounted for by the intevening two years. Mr. Beam (what was the first name? Jim?) is another incarnation of the GUEST who started the David Lynch 9/11 thread and other conspiracy theory threads. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Skivee Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:14 PM Mr, Bean claims to be involved in the film industry, yet his video looks alot like something shot with a small personal video camera. A professional videographer Would not shoot with nearly that amount of "bobbing and weaving" in their images, the resolution of the shot is low, there doesn't seem to be any story being told in the shot, and, oh, yeah, the guy does not look like MacVeigh. Plus the guy's text, which he has mostly cut and pasted from his own website, sounds like a run-of-the-mill aluminum hat club "They are watching me" paranoid scree. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:16 AM That was me up above. biLL |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:14 AM "If someone were sitting outside my home in a car with the engine running and looking at my house I would go out and ask them what the hell they were doing. " It would give me the creeps. Hell, I'd phone the cops. biLL |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: SINSULL Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:11 AM If someone were sitting outside my home in a car with the engine running and looking at my house I would go out and ask them what the hell they were doing. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: SINSULL Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:05 AM Why exactly have you come to a music site with this? Are you a member? |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Rapparee Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:26 AM SOME of the building may have been blown outwards: the result of overpressures and shock waves bouncing off interior walls, other buildings, and so on. But the ORIGINAL shock wave and overpressure came from the EXTERIOR of the building -- there were no charges inside (apart from a few pistol cartridges, etc. from the FBI and building guards). And I find "Hustler" to be such an unimpeachable source that I'll believe it without even bothering to find an issue. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Jeri Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:34 AM The DO frequently have an inside view of things... |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Becca72 Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:31 AM Oh, well if "Hustler" is running the story it MUST be right! |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Bill D Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:34 PM *rolling my eyes* here we go again! (NO! the building was NOT 'blown outwards') |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:30 PM Nah, that's McVeigh. Page 2 of the comparisons. This site is going to post the voice print comparison graphs, they said, but the front teeth, nose, eyes...it's the same guy. And this is PART of 9-11. Government-sponsored terrorism. The Bush/Clinton crime organization. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: number 6 Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:15 PM Go back and stick to the 9/11 thread Guest. biLL |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:07 PM Dental and voice print analysis is more persuasive than an observation about eyebrows. Hustler magazine is going to run this story in 2 months. They are noted (after quite a few lawsuits) for checking everything multiple times. They're convinced this is the real deal. It'll be interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Sorcha Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:01 PM I don't believe Anon Guests anyway. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,TIA Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:55 PM Unconvincing. The eyebrows are different in every shot. Not a match. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:11 PM Only thread with "Timothy McVeigh" in it, so I guess this goes here. Tim McVeigh My name is Bill Bean I work in the film industry. I have information relevant to the Oklahoma City bombing. I did not approach anyone at the time of the trial because I did not understand the relevance of what I had. I am submitting this to Congressman Rohrabacher's office because of his stated interest in having hearings about what actually happened. On August 3, 1993 I was given a tour of Camp Grafton North Dakota. Camp Grafton is a military training academy for National Guard and army reserve personnel.... First) this is Timothy McVeigh; there is no question about that. Videotaped from two feet away, every feature down to his crooked teeth is clearly evident. Concerning his teeth, his two front teeth, central incisors, are straight, those on either side, the lateral incisors, slant in. This tape was shown to a dentist who said, "This is as unique as a fingerprint!" Second) A voice analysis was done on the soldier in the tank. His voice was compared to the known voice of Timothy McVeigh, taken from a 60 Minutes interview. It is an exact match. Various electronic and human tests were conducted to reach this conclusion.... ...After May of 1992 he was never again in uniform on any base anywhere, never again part of the military.... http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/okc_bombing_tim_mcveigh_on_august_3_1993.htm So it appears the govt lied about McVeigh's military service. The puny little fertilizer bomb created a crater in front of the Murrah bldg in Oklahoma City. The bldg was blown outwards, more bombs were found inside, undetonated bombs. Immediately after the blast, congress passed Clinton's Omnibus anti-terrorism bill, which had failed to pass the first time around. Government-sponsored terrorism works. McVeigh was handling munitions for the military a year after he was "discharged." Video evidence. Amazing. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST Date: 11 May 01 - 03:46 PM Current Okie--
A while ago in this thread I posted links to some of the information you related, although the drug connection was news to me. The most plausible theory I've found is that the Feds blew up the building to destroy documents which would have implicated them in Waco, much as I don't want to believe that.
Another interesting read is from McVeigh's lawyer, who had petitioned for THE EXACT DOCUMENTS for months that the FBI only now "suddenly" found. Maybe the new administration is afraid that the whole thing would come out after they killed a (perhaps) innocent man and would be far worse than revealing the existence of the documents now. In any event, I'm sure no FBI people will be put in prison, let alone be put to death, for denying McVeigh a fair trial.
This whole thing has me alert and afraid of "our" government. I, for one, won't be afraid if there's suddenly a war somewhere else to shy media attention away from this debacle.
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,jerryt Date: 11 May 01 - 02:45 PM The wackos don't need a martyr. Just put a bullet in the back of his head and bury him. Don't even bother to announce it to the media. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,ok ok ok ok Date: 11 May 01 - 02:43 PM Current Okie been here 5 years and frequent visits before. A lot of people here believe there were several other people involved and that these will never be caught when Tim Mc Veigh dies. Why? There is a strong narcotics connection between 1 Waco Koresh &co AND the Law enforcement agencies. 2 It is being reported that no US Federal Officer was at work on the day of the Explosion. 3 There have been many instances of good ole boy rednecks down here expressing sympathy for the Davidians and we are talking a bunch of people here. 4 There are proven links between rightwing extreemists and the state of Oklahoma 5 There is evidence of 'Outings' in the boonies complete with Bluegrass Bands Hoods and Drugs. 6 There is also a proven link between these latter loonies and Oklahoma's own Polygamists and whaddya know Koresh was a ...... polygamist as well as a narco user. 7 When did you ever read of a real BIG drug bust in the State of Oklahoma? - Laflor Co Oklahoma is a BIG producer of Pot...and other things ....staging area?? The only agency that could investigate this would be the Chinese since they COULD not be getting paid off for drug deals that went down 6 years ago in the State of Oklahoma USA. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST Date: 11 May 01 - 02:22 PM At least you'll be alive. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: mousethief Date: 11 May 01 - 01:27 PM I know I will. My entire concept of my own intelligence is based on the outcome of his case. alex |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST Date: 11 May 01 - 12:19 PM Well, I told you so. Won't you belligerent monkeys feel stupid when he's shown to be innocent. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:49 PM Well, yeah. And it's funny how easily those army press officers can say "collateral damage" isn't it? They've been well trained to condone or explain away mass murder, haven't they? After all, "the end does justify the means"...doesn't it? And you've "gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet"...don't you? Shrug. Funny, though, I never thought of people as eggs... - LH |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:26 PM I think essentiallly we're in agreement here, troll. I get concerned at the tendency people have to assume that the responsibility for the harm that individuals do stop with that individual, and that if we try to find out if there were things about society that fed into that person's actions, that's just a matter of making excuses.
And the reason that matters is that it's only by finding out those kind of things that we can make it less likely that it'll all happen over again.
So far as I can see Timothy McVeigh was an ordinary enough young man from an ordinary enough background. Somewhere along the line he turned into someone capable of that bombing, and of shrugging of the results withn the kind of detached dehumanised language that army press officers use - "collateral damage". So what happened?
Incidentally Here is a piece about it all by a namesake of his, a Scottish journalist called Tracey McVeigh |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:45 PM Troll - I am not saying McVeigh isn't responsible for his actions, and for those actions I would imprison him, probably for life. I am saying that his behaviour is partially a result of the society he grew up in...and the way he reacted to that society. That is equally true of all of us. Most of us react in a far less dangerous manner than he did. Thus, most of us do not need to be imprisoned in order to protect the rest. The real sticking point here, I think, is that many people see Timothy McVeigh as evil. I don't. I see his actions as evil. I see him as ill...insane in my terms of what the word means (maybe not in yours). Not that he didn't understand what he was doing in a literal sense...but that he didn't understand life in a larger sense...or he wouldn't have blown up a building full of strangers. I don't see people as evil because I judge the act, not the person. That doesn't mean I won't arrest, proscecute and imprison the person if it is a destructive act. That also doesn't mean I won't defend myself if someone breaks into my place in the night and attacks me...hell, I might even kill him in the heat of the moment...but not because he is evil...simply because I have a normal moral duty to protect myself and my property. I might feel hatred toward that person afterward too...you know why? Not because he's evil, but because I am human, I am emotional, and I can get very scared, and I can relive that fear in the form of hatred and be haunted by it. As long as I can't shed the fear, I will carry a charge of hatred in me and it will poison me from within. It won't undo the harm that was done, but will perpetuate the damage. These are the kind of instinctive feelings that only a handful of the most enlightened people in history have risen above, and I have got a long way to go on that. I have barely begun. But I have seen the snow gleaming on a very distant mountain top, and I aspire toward it. To blame only society for Timothy McVeigh's behaviour would be foolish, but to completely discount society's influence on shaping his life toward an insane, violent act would also be naive. It's not a case of black or white...it's shades of gray. I hope that makes it a little clearer what I meant. And if not, well, "you're right from your side and I'm right from mine", to quote Bob Dylan. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Fiolar Date: 24 Apr 01 - 09:23 AM According to an article in the British Sunday newspaper the Observer's magazine supplement, the fact that he fought in the Gulf War killing at least two Iraqui snipers changed him. His home life was also disturbed. Incidentally it is not the murderer who suffers, it's the victims, their relatives and the relatives of the killers who have to live with the consequences of the actions which result. When McVeigh is dust, his sister and parents still have to try and survive. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Troll Date: 24 Apr 01 - 09:06 AM " Timothy McVeigh is a tiny individual symptom of a society that has gone functionally insane.
- LH "
Nobody is solely responsible for their actions. We are social creatures, and everything we do effects other peiople." ,br.Kevin, When I say that people are solely responsible for their actions, I don't mean that they don't impact society, which is what you seem to have understood. troll |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Kelticgrasshopper Date: 23 Apr 01 - 08:08 PM Troll.. Timothy McVeigh has said that he was responsible for his actions.. Are you implying that somehow something in his childhood caused him to blow up a building kill babies, and inocent adults and its the fault of society?? Come on now.. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Apr 01 - 07:40 PM Nobody is solely responsible for their actions. We are social creatures, and everything we do effects other peiople.
That's not to say that if you do something wrong you can claim it's not really your fault. We have to accept responsibility for the results of our own actions. And that means we can't go and shuffle off our share of the responsibility for what goes wrong in our society if we have contributed to bringing it about. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Troll Date: 23 Apr 01 - 06:48 PM So it's society's fault. That figures. Heaven forbid that anyone, even a McVeigh, should be solely responsible for his actions. It's always someone elses fault. troll |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Kelticgrasshopper Date: 23 Apr 01 - 06:31 PM True again.. In many ways Timothy McVeigh is asking to be killed in order to carry out some sick sort of master plan for creating an "American Hero." It may, in after thought, have been better to put him in solitary confinement for the rest of his life or better yet put him into the general population of one of the Federal Prisons. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Apr 01 - 06:17 PM The reason for "doing this sort of thing ie talking about him endlessly" is because the people and government of the USA decided to go back to executing people.
The result is that attention is focussed on the killing ritual, and undoubtedly, for some people, this is an element in bringing them to commit the crimes that end in this public killing. Timothy McVeigh was/is probably such a person.
There are strong ground for believing that the overall effect of capital punishment in a country is not to deter murder, but to encourage it. That would seem to be borne out if you compare the murder rate in countries which have the death penalty and countries which have abolished it. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Kelticgrasshopper Date: 23 Apr 01 - 05:09 PM Doing this sort of thing ie talking about him endlessly is just what he hopes will happen.. More sicko's will make him a HERO and more inocents will die in horrific ways.. He deserves to die silently alone with KNOWONE WATCHING!!!! or CARING |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Brendy Date: 22 Apr 01 - 11:56 PM A-hem... Quote taken from This Article B. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Brendy Date: 22 Apr 01 - 11:54 PM "In recent years, credible reports have alleged that organs from some executed prisoners were removed, sold, and transplanted. Officials have confirmed that executed prisoners are among the sources of organs for transplant but maintain that consent is required from prisoners or their relatives before organs are removed. There is no national law governing organ donations, but a Ministry of Health directive explicitly states that buying and selling human organs and tissues is not allowed. In February 1998, two Chinese nationals were charged in a foreign court with attempting to sell human organs allegedly taken from the bodies of executed prisoners; the charges were dropped in November. At least one Western country has asked repeatedly for information on government investigations of alleged organ trafficking, but to date no information has been released. There have been credible reports in the past that patients from abroad had undergone organ transplant operations on the mainland, using organs removed from executed criminals." Quote taken from B. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Apr 01 - 10:40 PM DJH - Very well said indeed. Mercy is among the highest of virtues. You can't wait for others to show it. Your only possible contribution to the world in that respect is to show it yourself...when the opportunity arises. And God protect us all from the unmerciful, in low or in high places. Seth from China - I have found your comments to be very perceptive and interesting, and I am curious as to what you are doing in China, and what your experience has been like over there... Can you please email me at dylanclone@yahoo.com and we could talk some about it. I've always been very interested in both China and Japan, but I have not visited either at this point. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,djh Date: 22 Apr 01 - 09:13 PM Maybe I shouldn't even continue this thread it has gone on long enough, but- This thread has been alternatingly enlightened and then frightening. The things a society values are engrained in it's people. Everyone has experienced culture shock at some point while encountering seemingly odd ,sometimes unsettling, attributes of another culture. Some cultures think a dog should never be in the house unless it's on the dinner table. (gasp)I Love my dog, he is family!Cannibals ,headhunters, and mobsters are not viewed as barbaric by each other. Children of abusive parents are statistically more likely to become abusive parents themselves. A fool gives full vent to his rage, the wise man holds back. Voilence begets voilence Tommorrow starts where today left off. If you don't want to live in a voilent culture- don't condon voilence. That especially includes voilence on the part of the state. There will still be TMs and Ted Bundy's, But, it will be a gentler society as a whole and YOU WON'T HAVE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS. I sympathize with those who have lost and have to do battle with their pain and rage over the cruelty inflicted by TM. I pray they find peace. Society should be seeking peace as a whole, and that should include ending the voilence.- DJH |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,Seth from China Date: 22 Apr 01 - 06:08 PM In reference to your statement about Chinese execution practices- could you document that? Thanks Seth |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,JTT Date: 21 Apr 01 - 09:08 PM Indeed, the references to China's executions are interesting. In China, the executed have become quite a business - so much so that it is common practice now for them to be shot, and instantly put on a life-support machine so that their eyes and other expensive organs can be ripped out for sale before the blood stops flowing or the brain working. A fine example of civilisation, and one I'm sure that the members of this forum would agree should be followed by the US... |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Apr 01 - 07:47 PM We all just see a part of the world, and a little bit of time, but we tend to extrapolate from that limited experience, and assume that that's how it's got to be and that's how it always is everywhere. And it's not true. There are always worse ways it could be - and better ways as well.
I sometimes think that Americans especially may tend to think that, if they haven't been able to find a better way, that better way can't be found. Not just Americans, it goes with being consciously the biggest and the richest and the strongest, and I imagine the Romans and the Chinese and to some extent the English had it in their day.
And the reason that is relevant here is that, apart from countries which are either desperately poor, or rich in a despotic and feudal way, very few governments nowadays carry out ritualised state killings. And the sky doesn't fall. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Apr 01 - 07:25 PM Troll - Well, I said it wasn't gonna be easy, didn't I? I think the best thing we can do at the moment is arrest them, try them, imprison them, and keep them imprisoned as long as they are still dangerous. I am not in favour of treating them in any deliberately sadistic way while they're there...just keep them of of reach of doing any more harm, that's all. And give them something to do while they're there, and then they can make some kind of contribution in repaying society. I don't care if it costs some money to keep them. Everything costs money. And I will never agree with all of it, nor will you or anyone else. I accept that. On a longer term sense...I think that if everyone had access to a decent job, a decent place to live, and didn't start life with several strikes against them (which many people do), then the incidence of crime would drop drastically. There are huge reforms needed in modern society around these issues. If there wasn't so much bullying in schools, then you wouldn't have these incidents of kids shooting other kids. If there wasn't so much dehumanization in family life (due to many factors...mostly driven by money and materialism), then not so many kids would become bullies...or assassins of bullies. There's a lot of alienation out there. I see far less of it in simpler societies that I have visited, where money and consumer goods are not so dominant over people's lives. The necessary reforms are not happening because people in general are serving money rather than serving life (human and otherwise). People are guilty of that at both the top and the bottom of society, but it's those at the top who must show leadership if real change is to occur. If there were more equality in a material sense, you would have far less crime and hatred in society. I don't mean exact equality...I just mean a smaller gap between rich and poor...and eliminating desperate poverty through social programs such as housing projects and JOB creation and educational assistance. I'm proposing a genuine "war on poverty" (remember that phrase?). Poverty should be seen as simply unacceptable in a modern society...as it is unacceptable in a family that one child should be overfed while 2 or 3 others are virtually starved by the same parents. These are enormous issues. One could write a number of 1,000 page books about them, and only make a beginning. You can call it socialism if you want. I just call it sanity. I fear I will have to reincarnate once or twice more before I see much done about it, however. Today's people are the hapless slaves of money for money's sake alone. And from there stems the crime, the insanity, the material excess, and the hopelessness. Timothy McVeigh is a tiny individual symptom of a society that has gone functionally insane. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Apr 01 - 02:49 PM What's the betting it gets out anyway?
That snuff-tape is going to be worth big money, someone's going to find a way of hacking into the closed circuit broadcast.
In any case, the movie will be out soon enough. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Fiolar Date: 21 Apr 01 - 08:43 AM Re my original posting, according to newspaper reports, the judge to whom the request was made to transmit the execution scenes on the net has refused permision. |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,Seth from China Date: 21 Apr 01 - 08:40 AM Yes indeed, it's not just TM who is living in fantasyland I'm coming to believe that it's the dominant experience for Americans, and his action and demeanor are pure wish fulfilment for millions, who want to punish and kill him , except for those few minutes a week when they wish that THEY had planted that bomb. Seth from China |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: Fiolar Date: 21 Apr 01 - 08:36 AM I understand in China the state sends the family the bill for the bullet? |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: GUEST,JTT Date: 21 Apr 01 - 04:47 AM Ah... American civilisation... |
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Subject: RE: Timothy McVeigh From: mousethief Date: 21 Apr 01 - 12:38 AM We lock them away in a smallish box and feed them through the hole. Remember all those dungeon scenes from "B" movies? Subtract the dripping water and the rats and you basically have it. Alex |
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