Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island

Subject: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:11 AM

My father turned me on to a wonderful series of books by English author, Patrick O'Brien. The 19th century historical novels follow the exploits of a ficticious English Captain, Jack Aubrey and his ship's Irish surgeon and Steven Maturin. One of those books, Desolation Island tells the adventure of the very near demise of these two heros and their ship, when they were very nearly destroyed by a Dutch Man-of-War in high seas in the Antarctic. The ducth ship was called, I believe the "Voxenhied" - my question is, since I no longer have the book, and since I have written a song about this encounter is how do yo spell, Voxenheid?? Are there any Patrick O'Brien fans out there in Mudcat land? Does anyone else remeber this marlvelous story?

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:18 AM

Not to be too picky, but it is "O'Brian" -- we fans hate the misspelling. Read them all. The earlier ones are better than the later ones, I think. He was a weird cat, made up all kinds of stuff about his life. The premiere Web site is: here.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:30 AM

Waakzaamheid.

source = http://www-personal.umich.edu/~hfc/pob/aw.html

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:37 AM

Waakzaamheid?? Hmm, shouldda known! Thanks, MMario. Ok Ducth speakers; what's mean??

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:39 AM

Oh, Peter T. I know better about the spelling of his name. I guess I'm cross brained today! Sorry about that! thanks for the link.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:47 AM

Well - here are the lyrics:

My name is Liam Devlin,
in Galway I was born
In eighteen hundred seven
to the English Crown I was sworn
I sailed with Captain Aubrey
in the prime of his bold career
A terror to all rival trade
was the English privateer

With Cockney, Moore and Irish lads
We made a handsome crew
Our ship was called the Leopard
And her officers brave and true
Our strength at sea was matched by few
And we made our way without fear
A terror to all rival trade
Was the English privateer

Chorus:
Low moans the wind, the cold Antarctic wind
Low moans the wind, the cold Antarctic wind

'Twas well below the Southern Cross
Bound for Botany bay
With a score of Irish prisoners
And the bounty sacked on the way
"Sail Ho, Sail Ho" the lookout called
three miles off to the larboard side
that's when I feared we'd met our match at last
the Dutchman Waakzaamheid

Chorus

We turned and ran before the wind
In a race straight toward the pole
The Waakzaamheid was thrice our size
And her captain bold as our own
For four longs days we ran from her
'til a mountainous sea rose high
that's when I feared we'd met our match at last
the Dutchman Waakzaamheid

Chorus -Instrumental

The Dutchman closed to a thousand yards
And let her cannon roar
We'd taken damage fore and aft
Captain Aubrey was wounded sore
But with one blessed shot her fore mast smashed
And the Dutchman rolled hard on her beam
And with all brave hands she sank beneath
The cold Antarctic sea.

Chorus

c Jed Marum 2001

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:00 AM

I hope that nice Captain Aubrey doesn't hear himself described as a privateer! You'll get a checked shirt at the gangway.

Fine words, though.

Les

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:01 AM

well - the online dictionaries show that all the words ending in -zaamheid are things like courage, intractibility, sutbborness, fidelity, etc.

bezwaar is "trouble"

"waak"doesn't show in my dictionary as a word or a prefix. it shows only as a suffix in "slovak"

My sense of Waakzaamheid as a name is "DOOM"

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:04 PM

Hi, Jed! Nice ballad. What's its name?

I too would strongly suggest reworking the ballad so you can avoid the term "privateer" even if it does rhyme nicely; you'll avoid unnecessary broadsides from the more nautically sophisticated. As I recall "the horrible old Leopard" (be nice to get that line in somewhere) was a fourth-rate, a 50-gun heavy frigate. Good luck!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:11 PM

"Letter of marque" is the expression we're all struggling for! Let us know the moment you write any more songs, Jed (Liam?).

Steve

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:15 PM

okay - I don't know the book - but if they sailed under a Letter of Marque - then by common practice and nomenclature they WERE privateers. if without they would be pirates.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:54 PM

Of all the place to sink, I should think Antarctic waters would be among the worst. I've read a couple of the Aubrey-Maturin stories, and they're very good, if a bit long-winded at times on the conversational end.

- LH

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:08 PM

Trying to resist a broadside...The HMS Leopard was a regular naval heavy frigate, not a "letter of marque" or a "privateer" or a "pirate ship." It's true that later in the series Capt. Aubrey does take command of the former frigate HMS Surprise as a "letter of marque" but that's not the
The Aubrey/Maturin series is one of the best nautical series written for getting the flavor of the Nepolianic War period. Yes, there's lots of talking and digressions, and some of the most dramatic action curiously takes place off stage. Addicts like myself read and reread the books, and look forward to no other life.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Lynn W
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:46 PM

I always assumed Waakzaamheid meant "wakefulness" or "watchfulness" (like English "Vigilant") but I don't know if this is correct. I've read all these books several times and never get tired of them. I particularly like the unexpectedness- he never signals what's going to happen beforehand so when a ship sinks you get a complete sense of shock.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 03:09 PM

*grin* As I said, I don't know the book. But a regular ship of the line certainly wouldn't be a "privateer", agreed.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 05:30 PM

He certainly had to sail as a private ship at one point in the series, because he got into some mess, but it was some time ago when I read them, so I forget which one.
One of the best things about the series is how much music there is in it. The fact that officers set up string quartets and so on as onboard hobbies never occurred to me until I read the series, and I was told that it was absolutely true during the period.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:04 AM

Charley - actually the 'horrible old Leopard' was a 50gun ship, a small two decker, not a frigate. These ships were used on detached duty, or on convoy escort, or sometimes as a flagship on a detached station where there were only small frigates or unrated vessels used.

Originally this class of vessel was part of the line-of-battle, but for many years they had been too small. The last of them built for the Royal Navy were built during the American Revolution (as we like to call it!) as they could work closer inshore than a 74 and it was unlikely that they would have anything bigger to fight. Which was true until the rest of Europe joined in!

I agree with you entirely about the Aubrey/Maturin books. They are the finest of their kind. Little Hawk, I like the conversations because of the flavour of the language used, which seems to fit the period better than any other books on the same subject. O'Brian's command of the subject was alao without equal.

I'm sorry to go on about all this, but the Napoleonic Royal Navy is my special interest, as by groaning bookshelves will bear witness.**BG**

Les

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Gervase
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:14 AM

As I recall, the Leopard was a hidous naval freak - a ship with what appeared to be a bow at both ends, originally designed as a floating bombardment vessel but never used in that role. Certainly Aubrey had mixed feelings about her - but she was a regular RN vessel and he didn't sail her under a Letter of Marque.
But that's nit-picking for you. I like the song Jed - what's the tune?

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: sledge
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:04 AM

Gervase, that wasn't the Leopard but some other beast.

Sledge

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:09 AM

Not that one, Gervase. You're thinking of Polychest, the 'Carpenter's Mistake', a post ship that Aubrey had commanded earlier.

The real HMS Leopard had a mixed career. She fired into an unprepared American frigate to compell her captain to hand back some seamen who had deserted. This was in about 1808, and was one of the causes of the American War of 1812.

Aubrey's mixed fealings were that he was not in a frigate (with better opportunities of prize money) or in a line-of-battle ship (which carried more kudos).

Les

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Gervase
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:11 AM

Oops! That's one of the problems with the O'Brian books - they're so addictive that you can't help but become a "pusher", lending them to all and sundry.
As a result, most of mine are are on friends' bookshelves so I wasn't able to do a check.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:16 AM

Well my reply was just from memory. How sad is that?

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:06 AM

Well, trice my pudden to the weather cat-harpings! Dr. Maturin inherited squillions of pesetas from his rich old uncle and bought the Surprise from the Navy. Capt. Aubrey, being on the beach through the wicked connivance of his land-bound enemies, then obtained a letter of marque to harry the King's sea-going enemies. If you haven't read this far, I'm sorry if I gave the game away. Leopard turns up later, as a rather down-at-heel transport ferrying troops back from the continent. Maturin is feted by the crew when they find he's an old Leopard, and has to recount the famous sea-battle (I forget which one!) which he didn't actually see, as he was below, tending the wounded. You really do need to read the books, you know!

Anyway, what is the tune?

Steve "Awkward" Parkes

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:17 AM

So THAT'S where he got the name "Liam Devlin"!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:37 AM

WOW - I love this place! I checked into Mudcat this morning nearly forgetting this thread - and was floored by all the wonderfull info!! Thanks all.

Yes, I believe the O'Brian series of books about Aubrey and Maturin are marvelous, and can see how they would be addicting. My Dad read them all and sent me a couple, and I have loved them as well. And when I first came across this story about the sinking of the Waakzaamheid - I knew I had to write the song. It's been fermenting in my head for quite some time.

Privateer is a major change to the lyric, but I know I must make the change. I am so glad I posted the lyrics now. I would not want to have recorded the song with such a mistake. I am not sure even where I came up with the word, except it was probably my own interpretation ... so thanks very much, y'all for catching that and speaking up.

I amazed at the detail so many have remembered! Thanks all for the comments. Please continue posting or PM if you have any further comments. I have an excellent melody for the song, I believe - I hope to get it on a recording soon, though unpublished until the next record. Still I will provide a tape copy to any who have an interest, once I have a chance to get the demo recorded (within the month).

Thanks again - y'all!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:47 AM

oh - I haven't decided the name yet. I like the Ballad of Desolation Island or just Desolation Island - because the are simple and they link the song directly to the book. But I'd love to hear suggestions for a name!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Mudlark
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 10:59 AM

Dear Jed...

Thanks so much for starting this thread, and to all mudcatters who have added to it. My husband turned me on to this series...I resisted for a long time, thinking them "guy" books...but have now read every one in the series, and many 2 and 3 times. The characters are wonderfully drawn and the action, when it comes--on land or at sea--is always sprightly.

I loved your ballad, and it reminded me of the great scenes in the books where poetry was spouted over the remains of spotted dick and old port....

Nancy

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 11:54 AM

Thanks, Les. Happy to be corrected on "the horrible old Leopard" as she was, indeed, a two-decked 50-gun vessel during the Desolation Island episode. Much later in the series she appears again as a stripped down transport. Maybe, we could work up a naval ballad the equivalent to "The Cat Came Back" given the persistent of this ship.

DRIFT ALERT! I once ran a thread on the Patrick O'Brian site trying to find out what people knew about the re-curring expression in the series of "kicking up Bobs-a-dying"; most folks agreed that it meant the sailors were ashore raising hell again, and that there may be a dance tune called "Bob's A-Dying" although nobody's been able to dig it up (so to speak). I do use that expression in the chorus of a song I use to introduce members of our sea songs group Roll&Go, if anyone is interested.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:20 PM

I had some lyrics in an earlier version about the 50-gun vessel, and considered working in some language about the size of the cannonballs (the Waakzaamheid not only outgunned the Leopard, but had much bigger cannon, as well) - but I found my first versions were written only for those who knew the story, and did not work on the level that most listeners could appreciate. So I simplified language, and took a more elemental approach.

I am curious, though since so many knowledgeable Mudcatters have contributed to the thread; I simply put one line in describing the crew; "with cockney, moore and irish lads we made a handsome crew" - I was out on a limb here - trying to show the mix of backgrounds. The Leopard, at the time of the Waakzaamheid incident had some "black portugese" hands - through poetic license and for simplication I said moores - also the term cockney may never have been used in those early times. No one picked me up on thse terms - but are there any comments?

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:26 PM

It doesn't take much poetic license to allow "moor" for Portuguese or Spanish

And as far as the lines about the cannons and the balls - we all know that it's not the size that matters.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:32 PM

Only that I would spell it without an 'e'. But as an adjective moorish would be more usual. This would more usually describe North Africans, but they weren't so knowledgable in those days.

The only really descriptive term I can think of, still in use today, is 'Lascar', a seaman from East India.

Les

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 02:29 PM

and regarding "cockney" This is from THE HISTORY OF COCKNEY RHYMING SLANG at http://fun-with-words.com/crs_history.html

"The Cockneys were - and are - working class Londoners. The word comes from cockeneyes (14th century) which means eggs that are misshapen, as if laid by a cock. The word went through a series of usages over the centuries, and it came to be used to refer to city folk, ignorant of 'real life'.
Nowadays the definition of Cockney is often one which originated during the 17th century. It refers to anyone born within the sound of Bow-bells. These are the bells of St. Mary-le-Bow Church in the City of London. "

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 11:04 AM

MMario - you are just a fountain of useful info!!! Thanks for the web research! And Les, I'll change the spelling of Moor - I wondered that, but wasn't bothered since I don't normally write the songs but sing them.

I've been considering the privateer term.My first inclination was to change it - but; it has been integral to the first part of the song; conveying the idea to non-historical types who would undertsnd the term immediately and would require no further explanation. Additionally there is precedent in recent folk-style music for its use so I benefit from connonation as well.

Is it not true that outsiders would have considered Aubrey and companty to be privateers? Say the American's whose British sailors were pressed, or the Ducth of French ships whose trade was disrupted by Aubrey's 'appropriation' of their goods? And what would an Irish seaman of perhaps mixed loyalties think of the term?

I would like some more feedback from you history buffs and/or O'Brian experts. I am sure, though - that Jack Aubrey would find the term highly insulting - and I may not want to piss him off, even if he is just a ficticious hero!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 11:13 AM

Should the accompaniment be flute and cello?
RtS

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 11:25 AM

Given that many of the greatest British sailor/heros were privateers, Aubrey would scarcely have minded.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:12 PM

Thanks Peter - you're a gentleman and a scholar, no matter what Rick Fielding says! ;-)

Roger - I think the accompaniment is primarily frailing banjo, with solos from fiddle and banjo and guitar maybe mando backup, maybe even bass. It is a lively melody.

I know Aubrey and Maturin would have chosen a very different melody with very different accompaniment.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:14 PM

I just had a thought. With a bit of luck, perhaps I can persuade Max and Bert to allow me to call in and play the song on Mudcat Radio next week. I'll send a note to Max and see how he feels about it.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:25 PM

Jed - I don't want to pour cold (sea) water on your sterling efforts, but for someone to call a Royal Navy captain of that (or any other) time a 'privateer' was a very great insult. O'Brian points this out in his books when 'Surprise' ships a crew of privateersmen from the (imaginary) village of Shelmerston, and the shame Aubrey feels when he was out of the Navy. Even he preferred the term 'letter of marque'. Privateer might have been a term that was acceptable to Drake and Hawkins, but to no one after that period in the English/British service. I'm trying to find a modern day equivalent - probably like calling someone who serves in their National Armed Forces a 'mercenary'.

The correct term for a career naval person of this time (other than officers who were Naval officers, or officers in the Navy) was Man-'o'-War's-man. Many songs of the time use 'Captain bold' or 'bold Captain'.

Hoping that this helps rather than hinders, Les

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:38 PM

Les - that is very helpful info. I have to weigh the expression in light of how it was used/perceived by the men from Aubrey's days against its current use - and perhaps more importantly, how much info it gives with a single word. I am torn. It sounds like I should rewrite the first two verses and develop a new approach to convey the same info. But the fact that Aubrey would have strenuously objected to the term (as he railed against captaining a ship whose main mission was transportation) does not mean that modern listeners might get what I'm talking about, and never notice the insult.

I have to let the idea ferment a bit. Maybe it'll be easier to rework then I think.

Thaks for your insight!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 04:51 PM

I would emphatically agree with Les on the inappropriateness of the term "privateer" as referred to the HMS Leopard. One could use that term for the Surprise, whether Aubrey objected or not, at various times during her career. But then again, there's only a few thousand or so of us who really care and would take the trouble to track you down and beat you up. ;-)

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 05:03 PM

LOL Charley - I'm nearly conviced that it must be changed. Accuracy over brevity! I'll see what I can do over the next few days ...

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Greyeyes
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 05:43 PM

"Jack Aubrey would find the term highly insulting - and I may not want to piss him off, even if he is just a ficticious hero!"

Although fictional, many of Aubrey's exploits were based on the real life adventures of Admiral Lord Thomas Cochrane, 10th Earl of Dundonald. Any Aubrey/Maturin fans would find one of the numerous biographies of this extraordinary character fascinating reading. A new one was published last year:- "Cochrane: the Life and Exploits of a Fighting Captain" by Robert Harvey.

A couple of descriptions of this series I particularly like: "Jane Austen for blokes", and "Cocaine for intellectuals". & one of mine, possibly the greatest series of historical novels ever written.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 07:04 AM

Cochrane was in some ways even more incredible than Aubrey. He was an Admiral in the navies of four separate countries (United Kingdom, Greece, Chile and Brazil). I believe that Chile still provides an honour guard on his tomb on their National Day.

The exploits in Master and Commander and the Reverse of the Medal are based on Cochrane's career.

Les

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Wotcha
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 09:34 AM

Jed,
I second the recommendations to read Robert Harvey's book about Lord Cochrane. He was quite the character: always short of money, always quarrelling with the Admiralty, and leading some naval action (with very little loss of life on his side which endeared him to his crews).
Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 09:58 AM

Forgive the ignorance (I gave away all the books some time ago) -- in the story under discussion is the ship the Surprise, and Aubrey still legit? Or the Leopard and Aubrey out of the service temporarily? If the first then privateer or letter of marque or whatever makes no sense, and Jed should rightly be flogged. If the second, then Aubrey might complain, but he might have a romantic bone in his overstuffed body, and anyway he isn't the singer of the song, is he? On the other hand, hands tended to be even more sticklers than their captains about their status. As long as we get to flog Jed, I am happy.

yours, Peter T. (whose nautical information is more along the lines of Stephen's).

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:07 AM

Aubrey's in service, commanding the Leopard.

I'm not sure which of the Articles of War you wish to invoke for Jed's punishment. Perhaps you'll have to use 'All other crimes not capital...' the famous 'Captain's Cloak'!

Les

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:11 AM

In the song, Aubrey is Captain of the Leopard, I don't know if he is out of service ... I know his primary assignments are the transportation of prisoners to Botany Bay, and a stop over at Bligh's new home to resolve yet another mutinous dispute in which Bligh has found himself. Of course, the Leopard captures a merchant ship or two along the way.

I used the term privateer because of its easy modern conotation, but agree that Aubrey would not like the term. I do believe that Aubrey's opponents would not mind the word, and perhaps a sailor on board of mixed loyalties could stomach the term ... but since I am casting Aubrey and crew in a positive, even heroic light - the expression is troublesome ... even my Irish sailor singing the song, who was likely not highly favorable of the British ruling classes had obvious respect for his English Captain and officers .... the trouble is the word works so well in the telling of the tale!

... still considering options and alternative, and this conversation is most heplful!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:25 AM

Oh dear, not poor old Lieutenet (sic) Bligh again! See here for the most recent commentary on the most mistunderstood-by-posterity man in the RN!

Steve

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:29 AM

Ahem! That should, of course, have read Lieutenant (sic) ... sorry!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:31 AM

Steve, does that mean I'll have to stop doing my impression of Tony Hancock doing Charles Laughton as Captain Bligh?
"Mistah Christian! I'll live to see you hanged from the highest yardarm in the British Navee."
RtS (probably misquoting!)

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM

Still playing around with your lyrics, trying to sink "privateer" once and for all. How about replacing the last two lines of the first and second verses with something like:

In the horrible (50-gun?) ol' Leopard,
Our bold captain (Aubrey?) was a man to fear.
Oh, what joy to write a ballad by committee!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: GUEST,Not an Aubrey hornblower
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 01:55 PM

I just have to inject into this lovefest for Captain Jack Aubery and his creator Patrick O'Brian that I have tried to get through two different novels featuring this character and I was really disappointed. You folks just have to dust off the novels by C.S. Forrester featuring the entire naval cereer of Horatio Hornblower. As we say down south, O'Brian couldn't take a rag off Forrester's bush. I find O'Brian practically unreadable, while the things you can learn about leadership, initiative and human relations from Hornblower's exploits are terrific. The recent T.V. movies based very loosely on the books Mr. Midshipman Hornblower and Lt. Hornblower showing on the A&E cable network are poor interpretations of these works by one of the greatest writters of this century. You might want to read another Forrester classic, The African Queen. He was, and for my money still is, the best.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 01:59 PM

I'm not sure about that third line in the substitution.

*g,d&r*

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 02:11 PM

Well, the Hornblower series is my second favorite for this period of naval novel. What amazes me about O'Brian is that every time I re-read his books I come across even more intriguing things. At least in his earlier books I think he was having a thoroughly enjoyable time writing and researching. The combination of Aubrey and Maturin makes for a more interesting read, as they are very different characters and most of the time, best friends. I also agree that the A&E series doesn't do the Forrester books justice, although they look better than other movies of this period that I've seen.

Finally, spare yourself the pain of reading William Bentley's "Jan Needle." It deserves to spin three times round and sink to the bottom of some septic body of water.
Vast heaving!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 02:44 PM

Jed, how about making a virture of necessity, e.g. Were we pirates, or privateers, or His Majesties etc...? as a verse. This would allow you to bring in my favourite Dutch-derived version of all this -- freebooter.

RE: Forester (why no one here seems to be able to spell the names of naval writers is a sea-going mystery to me). O'Brian's writings are far superior psychologically -- Hornblower is one rank above cardboard in uniform. They are also far better written. IMHO. Though, as said, the earlier O'Brian books are much better than the later ones.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 03:05 PM

Actually I appreciate all the suggestions for lyric changes, and I am working on possible changes ... but yu see there is a lot more in the verse then simple the rhyming lines, I am actually telling the relevant bits I care to retell within the ryhmes, so I will probably make some dramatic changes to the first verses, if I change them.

... and to "GUEST/Not an Aubrey hornblower" I must say I understand the issues with O'Brian's style, for modern American tastes the language can be laborious - but I must say; once I dug in I found the use of language elegant! I think much of the value of O'Brian's stories is the beauty of the language, however wordy it may seem to our American cultured ears!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Gervase
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 05:50 PM

Hell's bells - Forester can't hold a candle to O'Brian when it comes to language. He writes a rattling good yard, but in terms of complexity, richness and overall satisfaction, his books are mere potboilers compared to the Aubrey-Maturin canon. A burger and fries compared to a gourmet meal, if you like.
And Jed, you're doing a disservice to your compatriots - O'Brian is probably more popular in the USA than in the UK. In fact, one of the reasons that he caught on over here was because you Americans had rightly spotted his genius when we had snootily dismissed him as "yet another swashbuckling historical hack". For which I thank you!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 09:55 AM

Gervase - perhaps I am not giving Americans the credit they deserve ... and perhaps I didn't actually mean it the way it sounded. Let me try again; I think Americans are generally exposed to such rich use of the language.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 12:11 PM

I got a CD from Jerry Bryant at the Mustic Sea Music Festival this weekend - it is a compilation of songs mentioned in the novels plus a few others from the period. It is intended as a companion to the novels.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 03:24 PM

Mmario

Any chance of the track listing? I occasionally reread some of the series - must keep an eye out for references.

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 03:55 PM

This one?

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 04:09 PM

That's it!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 06:55 PM

As a reader of the series [more than once] I wondered on occasion what "Catharpins" were. According to "Steel's Elements of Mastmaking, Sailmaking and Rigging," 1794 edition, page 117, they are "Short ropes, to keep the lower shrouds in tight, after they are braced in by swifters, and to afford room to brace the yards sharp." Swifters (p. 131) are "The after shrouds on each side of the main and fore masts; they are above all the other shrouds, and are used as an additional security to the masts..."

By the way, try the Nathaniel Drinkwater series. Much better IM[NS]HO and there is no effort to stretch the series for a few extra bucks.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: LadyJean
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 12:01 AM

Just wanted to say I love your ballad! My car is called Sophie, because it's such a boat, inspired by "Master and Commander". My favorite of Patrick O'Brian's is the third, "HMS Surprise". If you don't know the sloth, you should. You'd have material for a whole new ballad. You might read Sarah Zettel's story "Miss Underwood and the Mermaid", which was inspired by O'Brian's stories.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: ooh-aah
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 02:45 AM

Fabulous to read that other folkies love Patrick O'Brian as much as I do - I've nearly got the whole set, and re-reading them is very rewarding. I think that the moment after the 'Waakhamzied' is sunk is one of the most powerful in the entire series.
I must say that Hornblower doesn't come within a country mile of Aubrey. I remember my idignation when I first heard of Patrick O'Brian ( or Patrick Russ, as his real name was)and how he was 'better' than Hornblower - rubbish I snorted. Within half a hour of picking up 'Master and Commander' I was not only convinced, but aware that my life was about to be significantly enrichmed!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 07:57 AM

My 2 cents goes to O'Brian as well I find him much more in tune with the reality of the Navy than Hornblower. Drinkwater is also pretty good even to him being run down by a steam paddleship when the war was over.

A warning, there is shortly an O'Brian film going to be released. Although called "Master and Commander" it is actually based on "Desolation Island" The part of tall, bluff, blonde, west-countryman Aubrey is to be taken by.....

Short dark antipodean Russel Crowe????????

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 08:06 AM

Thanks for the listing - a few familiar items there, alright! I'm trying to recall if there were any specificlly Irish song references?

Being Irish, a scientist, a birdwatcher, deeply interested in music and a sailor - I was a sucker for the series from the start! Yes, things get strained every so often over 20 novels, but the essential sympathy and life remain.

I've slowly started to build up a collection of hardback copies, so if anyone....

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 08:58 AM

And then there's the cookbook...anybody really want to know how to cook a spotted dog?

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: The O'Meara
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 11:05 AM

Russel Crowe? No no no. Aubrey is well over 6 feet, red faced, blond and constantly overweight. I reckon if Crowe plays Aubrey, they might as well get have Maturin, who closely resembles Barry Fitzgerald, played by Sting. Damn Hollywood anyway!
   BTW, did anyone notice in Jed Marum's song the title is Desolation Island but there's no mention of it anywhere in the lyrics so it doesn't make much sense unless you're an O'Brian fan. What happened to his song anyway?

O'Meara

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 11:13 AM

He recorded it, it is available on CD - and it is fantastic!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: LadyJean
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 12:08 AM

Russell Crowe insisted on the role. Apparently he's an O'Brian fan. I wasn't a Russell Crowe fan, until I found out.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: Peterr
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 07:24 AM

I'll reserve judgment on Russel Crowe until I see what he has done to Aubrey, but Jack's physical appearance is mentioned that often in the books it will be hard to shift my perception. Still, I did get used to Sean Bean as Sharpe.....
Thanks, EBarnacle, for the catharpins. I've been thinking of looking up some of the terms for fun, and perhaps I will now get round to it.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 09:22 AM

My freind Aengus Finnan, who also sings the song, says I should have named it Leopard's Run. I think he's right!

Desolation Island stuck because I recorded the demo shortly after I wrote the song, and had yet to name it. I wrote Desolation Island on the CD, so I;d remember what song it was - and then never gave it another thought. When the record came out several months later, I ad forgotten that I never really named the song.

BUT - I liked the idea of giving a hint to those who know nothing of O'Brien - only in the title. If someone was curious enough to "look it up" they'd quickly find the novel.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 09:28 AM

... and who aked what happened to the song? The whole album was released in Nov of 2003. Desolation Island is the first track. The albums' done OK on the radio - and the song plays pretty regularly. You could call your favorite folk/celtic radio show and request it - they probably have it, and may have already played. it. If they don;t have it, let me know (but most folk/celtic radio stations have the album, in US and Canada, many in Ireland and UK have it as well).

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 09:31 AM

And one more thing; Mudcatters Rick Fielding and Big Mick are on the recording of this song. Rick plays mando and guitar and Mick sings the chorus with me.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: The O'Meara
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 02:18 PM

OK, I'll reserve judgement on R. Crowe - he is a pretty good actor after all.
Where can I get a copy of the cd?

O'Meara

(It's not Nov. 2003 yet, so I presume it's supposed to be Nov 2002.)

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 05:03 PM

I just got the Jerry Bryant CD mentioned above from Amazon.com...cost $14.99 and took about 5 days to get here. Well worth it, for itself and as a musical memory of Patrick O'Brian's books.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 06:27 PM

An Historical Interlude.

Are 'Catters aware that it was in this month that HMS Lepoard fired into the USS Cheasapeake to bring her to, to search for deserters ??

Which was the central theme of "Desolation Island"

Gareth

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: toadfrog
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 08:59 PM

That other thread may be correct about Bligh, who knows? But it seems to assume that because he was a remarkably able sailor (which no one denies) he could not possibly have been an S.O.B. as well. Doesn't follow. Exceptionally able people are often S.O.B.'s. It shouldn't even be necessary to cite examples.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: ooh-aah
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 07:12 PM

Two of the wonderful things about the Aubrey/Maturin books is the way the pleasures of good food and music run through them all - I can't wait to get stuck into a soused pig's face and a boiled baby one day! There are plenty of references to folk music as well - perhaps the best book for this is 'The Surgeon's Mate', in which the charming young Lithuanian, Jagiello, makes his first appearance and shows a deep interest in English popular songs, and they all sing 'The Lady and Death', Chevy Chase' and 'All in the Downs' in the snug of the Grapes (p.183). Does anyone know from which bawdy song Jack takes the lines
         
          You ladies of lubricity, that dwell in the bordello
          Ha ha ha, hee hee hee
          For I am that kind of fellow?

He sung this in 'Post Captain' I believe, thus causing himself great embarassment when his future wife and her family walked in!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 11:48 PM

Well, the Russell Crow flick is out this week. I guess they won't be using my song for the sound track. They probably could have talked me into it!

I never posted the link, but you can hear a quick loading sound file of the song here ... I never did post the final lyric - but when I recorded it, we resolved the issue by saying "some say a privateer."

Maybe a slight of hand way out of the problem - but it works. Apologies to O'Brian, RIP.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 08:43 AM

Cold blows the wind!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 03:53 PM

Waste not a moment!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: Dani
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 04:06 PM

I am a brand new, and obnoxious, fan. Pushing them on any literate soul I come across. The language is a delight, as are the honest portraits of flawed, imperfect human beings.

Found the last by accident, then began over with Master and Commander. Can't wait for the movie. If it's great, it'll make the rest of the books that much more enjoyable. If it's terrible, it'll make the books that much more enjoyable!

Dani

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Briens Desolation Island
From: Nancy King
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 07:48 PM

O'Brian fans who would like some help with some of the Naval terms and lore (including "privateer") might be interested in a book titled "A Sea of Words: a Lexicon and Companion for Patrick O'Brian's Seafaring Tales," by Dean King with John B. Hattendorf and J. Worth Estes.   The 2nd edition was published in 1997, so it doesn't cover the last couple of books, but really is a great reference. I just happen to have a library copy here -- but I think I'm gonna have to buy my own.

Dean King has also written a reference titled, "Harbours and High Seas: An Atlas and Geographical Guide to the Aubrey-Maturin Novels of Patrick O'Brian," which gives helpful maps showing the voyages chronicled in the novels. Look for it at the library.

As for the movie, I'm looking forward to it, if only to see how they've dealt with the story and characters. The trailers certainly seem to feature a lot of action, if nothing else. I know a couple of purists who refuse to see it because it doesn't follow the stories exactly. Their loss, methinks.

Cheers, Nancy

P.S. Love the song and the CD, Jed!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 10:09 PM

Thanks Nancy!

I love the books too. I've read several now and will probably continue over the years. I received an "audio book" too, for Christmas (for my long driving trips). Tim Piggot Smith (I hope I got that right) was the reader, and he did a marevelous job.

I'll be attending the film as soon as I get back to two next week!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: Nancy King
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 10:50 PM

You're welcome, Jed!

I've listened to the whole series on tape, and, IMHO, the narrations by Patrick Tull are absolutely the BEST! He really brings all the characters to life. For reasons beyond all understanding, our library bought someone else's narration of one of the books, and after one tape I just couldn't listen -- I rented the Patrick Tull version from Recorded Books instead. Much better.

Cheers, Nancy

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 04:14 AM

I had a look at the movie website. I infer that the pictures are going to be very, very good, and dare say the acting will be too; I' don't know about the story! The first film is based on the tenth book, but the period has been changed from the War of 1812 to 1806, and the Bad Guy is a French ship, not an American one. There's a suggestion that the US public might be touchy about the Stars and Stripes going down after 9/11 ... It's the old thing about the Brits being the nasties in Amerrican movies, isn't it? If the Brits adre the Good Guys, then the other side has to be someone really evil, like the French. Hope it doesn't affect the Canadian box office!

Steve

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 08:23 AM

far be it from me to come Hollywood's defense, but if they did almalgamate the stories to create a film that portrays the characters and the actions of the sereis - then they could have had their choice of ships to sink!

which was the 10th book?

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: Urbane Guerrilla
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 09:04 AM

Fear not. They blonded Russell Crowe for the role, and seem to be photographing him "as a much taller man."

I see somebody else remembers that cookbook. What did they call that prodigy again? Stumbled across it in a used-book store, didn't get it -- no money -- I remember a lot of puddings that all seemed to take about three hours' boiling. Definitely the d@mnedest thing I'd seen that week.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 09:37 AM

The 10th book is The Far Side of the World. Here's that website, with Our Russel in Alan Ladd mode (i.e. standing on a box!), and the lad, chatting. How's this for faultless philosophy:
Crowe said he was not overly concerned about maintaining fidelity to O'Brian's canon. If something works better on the screen, then so be it. "The way I figure it, Patrick O'Brian is dead," Crowe said. "And anyway, we're making a movie here."

Steve
PS That's "canon" with one "n"!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 09:47 AM

So Jack Aubrey is a Master and Commander in charge of a frigate, eh? And it's 1806 and he's wearing two epaulletes. Thank you Hollywood!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 10:38 AM

LOL!!

I hope to see a comment or two on this thread from someone who's seen the flick this weekend. I have a few dates out of town and won;t get to the movie for a week or so ... so I'll be looking for your thoughts before I see the film.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 12:56 PM

Well I guess we will debate unendingly the right and wrong way to bring a book to the films and whether or not an actor is suited to the role. I have often stated my ability to suspend disbelief and be entertained. Once immersed in the period and the story I am lost until the last credit rolls.
   And if the film isn't quite exactly the story that was written I don't care. Treasure of Sierra Madre was really Houston's first attempt at The Man Who Would Be King. Clearly not as Kipling wrote it but no one denies it is one of the great American films.
   
And this debate goes on constantly with us kids who read, read and love comic books and see our favorited bit of panelology put on the screen and be clearly not what we read and remember. I expect I'll go to the theatre and watch this film for what it is. A film.

   I imagine I won't care if Russell Crowe isn't as big as Lucky Jack is in the books, (Robbie Coltrane isn't as big as Haggrid is in the books either. :-)), but I hope to be greatly entertained. Mainly because I'm able to see Lucky Jack Aubrey and Russell Crowe on the screen.

I can't wait to see this film and maybe it is good that I have never read the books. I only learned of them from Jeds's song on his fine CD last spring. Well before I heard of the movie.

   I'll read the books now that I am aware of them. And I can't wait for that either.

I'll of course add my two cents after I see this movie tomorrow. Can't wait for the lights to dim and the trailers to start.

Don

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 02:07 PM

Yes I know it's only a film but it seems that it's as easy to get things right as it is to get them wrong. I have no problems with Mr Crowe's height or other things mentioned, but it does ruin my enjoyment when things in a historical context are wrong. And the assumption that no one will notice, know or care really bugs me. I usually miss the next couple of line because of my spluttering.

Especially when Patrick O'Brien took such pains to get things right.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 02:44 PM

You know Les agree that it is as easy to get the history right as not. And Hollywood throws a lot of stuff at us with some considerable hubris. John Wayne as an 1840's Texas Ranger using pistols and rifles that are about 30 years too early for the period is a particular problem with me. Because he was playing a cowboy and cowboys had Colts Peacemakers and Winchester Leaveraction Carbines.

I guess can understand the head shaking at uniform parts being off because of that. I remember in Captain Horatio Hormblower as filmed with Gregory Peck all the cannons were fired by lanyards and flint igniters. All I remeber from the books were sparks and linstocks.
To me that was aninteresting departure but not enough to wreack the film for me or cast a pawl over the experience.

I just hope the ships carpenter doesn't have a tool belt and a Maikita 14 Volt power drill.

Don

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 06:31 PM

Flintlock igniters for cannon were contemporary with the Napoleonic era.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: Gareth
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 06:46 PM

Les f Hul9 - Touche !

But please do not confuse Hollywood with acuracy in the Historical matters - In particular British History !

I will reserve my judgement till I have seen the film.

Now Crowe could well play Drake, or "EL Draco", in a film of "1588 and all that" !

Or would that be UN - PC !

Gareth - Whose guiding light at Sea or at Land is "What would Hornblower have done !"

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 May 09 - 12:42 PM

Ok - I did a slide show video of the song, Desolation Island and posted it at Youtube.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: DonMeixner
Date: 14 May 09 - 12:54 PM

Wow.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 May 09 - 01:12 PM

Jed, I'm looking forward to listening.

The link way above to info about Jerry Bryant's cd is defunct; here's a current one: "Roast Beef of Old England".

~ Becky in Tucson
(writing from work)

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 May 09 - 01:21 PM

Thanks for the corrected link, Becky.

By the way, I'm going to be out your way in Nov. I am bringing the band to play at the Tucson Celtic Festival. We will certainly play this song. I hope you'll be there!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 May 09 - 01:22 PM

thanks don!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 14 May 09 - 03:26 PM

no one has mentioned Alexander Kent and his Bolitho series. Not to criticize any of the other authors or works, I would rank Kent slightly ahead of Forester, who is slightly ahead of O'Brian, IMHO. I found the Aubrey/Maturin series extremely readable and enjoyable, but so much repetition in the later books, so much retelling of backstory, totally unnecessary. The Alexander Kent novels give you a different surgeon on every vessel, many different types and various abilities, more believable characters, Maturin is almost a superhero as written, operating on himself with a mirror, etc., convenient coincidences, etc. I recommend the O'Brian books, and the Forester books and the Kent books to all readers. My doctor friends love the Maturin character, but I'm partial to Richard Bolitho, with the exception of one out of 27 or so books. Any other Bolitho series fans out there?

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 May 09 - 06:25 PM

Thanks Bill. I'll put Alexander Kent and his Bolitho series on my 'to read" list!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 May 09 - 12:27 PM

Bill-

I've also read the Richard Bolitho series but I differ with you on several points. Yes, there is more action described in detail than with O'Brian. However, the dialogue is much less interesting than with O'Brian. And Kent's major women characters are strikingly similar, and they hardly ever do anything interesting on their own.

I do like the newer Kydd by Julian Stockwin series. And James Nelson does come up with some well documented historical novels as well.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 May 09 - 12:59 PM

Totally agree Charley! The Alexander Kent Bolitho novels are good enough, but they are almost pulp compared with O'Brian's (or even Forester's) stuff. Stockwin, Nelson and Woodman are all decent reads.

If you want the real details of the real actions, I would recommend a set of William James 'The naval history of Great Britain from the declaration of war by France in February 1793 to the accession of George IV in January 1820 : with an account of the origin and progressive increase of the British Navy' ... Five volumes (London Baldwin, Cradock & Joy, 1822-24); New edition in Six volumes ... and an account of the Burmese War and the battle of Navarino. (London: R. Bentley, 1837); (London: R. Bentley, 1847); (London: R. Bentley, 1859); (London: Richard Bentley, 1860); (London: Richard Bentley, 1886); (London: Macmillan, 1902); (London: Conway Maritime Press, 2002).

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 May 09 - 12:49 AM

All this this trashing of Forester is really inappropriate. He began his series with a trilogy which {I believe} was commissioned to be the basis of a pretty good movie starring Gregory Peck. The remainder of the series was consistent in style with the trilogy.

Considering that he took the constructs of Sabatini and the other single novel authors and created the central character series concept of maritime novels, I would say he did pretty well.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 16 May 09 - 01:07 AM

I found the character of Hornblower to be really annoying. I didn't enjoy spending time with him, the way I did Aubrey and Maturin.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 16 May 09 - 03:50 PM

I would never slag off CS Forester. He more or less established this genre (after Marryat, who had sailed with Cochrane). I read them as a kid and the navy of that period has remained a lifelong interest with me. In my personal list CS Forester comes second, after O'Brian.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island
From: GUEST,l.n.
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 01:20 AM

ooh-aah: The "You ladies of lubricity, that dwell in the bordello" lines from Post Captain are from a 1611 travelogue, Coryat's Crudities: Hastily gobled up in Five Moneth's Travels, by Thomas Coryat.