Help: Patrick O'Brian's Desolation Island

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 03:55 PM

This one?

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 03:24 PM

Mmario

Any chance of the track listing? I occasionally reread some of the series - must keep an eye out for references.

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 12:11 PM

I got a CD from Jerry Bryant at the Mustic Sea Music Festival this weekend - it is a compilation of songs mentioned in the novels plus a few others from the period. It is intended as a companion to the novels.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 09:55 AM

Gervase - perhaps I am not giving Americans the credit they deserve ... and perhaps I didn't actually mean it the way it sounded. Let me try again; I think Americans are generally exposed to such rich use of the language.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Gervase
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 05:50 PM

Hell's bells - Forester can't hold a candle to O'Brian when it comes to language. He writes a rattling good yard, but in terms of complexity, richness and overall satisfaction, his books are mere potboilers compared to the Aubrey-Maturin canon. A burger and fries compared to a gourmet meal, if you like.
And Jed, you're doing a disservice to your compatriots - O'Brian is probably more popular in the USA than in the UK. In fact, one of the reasons that he caught on over here was because you Americans had rightly spotted his genius when we had snootily dismissed him as "yet another swashbuckling historical hack". For which I thank you!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 03:05 PM

Actually I appreciate all the suggestions for lyric changes, and I am working on possible changes ... but yu see there is a lot more in the verse then simple the rhyming lines, I am actually telling the relevant bits I care to retell within the ryhmes, so I will probably make some dramatic changes to the first verses, if I change them.

... and to "GUEST/Not an Aubrey hornblower" I must say I understand the issues with O'Brian's style, for modern American tastes the language can be laborious - but I must say; once I dug in I found the use of language elegant! I think much of the value of O'Brian's stories is the beauty of the language, however wordy it may seem to our American cultured ears!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 02:44 PM

Jed, how about making a virture of necessity, e.g. Were we pirates, or privateers, or His Majesties etc...? as a verse. This would allow you to bring in my favourite Dutch-derived version of all this -- freebooter.

RE: Forester (why no one here seems to be able to spell the names of naval writers is a sea-going mystery to me). O'Brian's writings are far superior psychologically -- Hornblower is one rank above cardboard in uniform. They are also far better written. IMHO. Though, as said, the earlier O'Brian books are much better than the later ones.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 02:11 PM

Well, the Hornblower series is my second favorite for this period of naval novel. What amazes me about O'Brian is that every time I re-read his books I come across even more intriguing things. At least in his earlier books I think he was having a thoroughly enjoyable time writing and researching. The combination of Aubrey and Maturin makes for a more interesting read, as they are very different characters and most of the time, best friends. I also agree that the A&E series doesn't do the Forrester books justice, although they look better than other movies of this period that I've seen.

Finally, spare yourself the pain of reading William Bentley's "Jan Needle." It deserves to spin three times round and sink to the bottom of some septic body of water.
Vast heaving!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 01:59 PM

I'm not sure about that third line in the substitution.

*g,d&r*

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: GUEST,Not an Aubrey hornblower
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 01:55 PM

I just have to inject into this lovefest for Captain Jack Aubery and his creator Patrick O'Brian that I have tried to get through two different novels featuring this character and I was really disappointed. You folks just have to dust off the novels by C.S. Forrester featuring the entire naval cereer of Horatio Hornblower. As we say down south, O'Brian couldn't take a rag off Forrester's bush. I find O'Brian practically unreadable, while the things you can learn about leadership, initiative and human relations from Hornblower's exploits are terrific. The recent T.V. movies based very loosely on the books Mr. Midshipman Hornblower and Lt. Hornblower showing on the A&E cable network are poor interpretations of these works by one of the greatest writters of this century. You might want to read another Forrester classic, The African Queen. He was, and for my money still is, the best.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM

Still playing around with your lyrics, trying to sink "privateer" once and for all. How about replacing the last two lines of the first and second verses with something like:

In the horrible (50-gun?) ol' Leopard,
Our bold captain (Aubrey?) was a man to fear.
Oh, what joy to write a ballad by committee!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:31 AM

Steve, does that mean I'll have to stop doing my impression of Tony Hancock doing Charles Laughton as Captain Bligh?
"Mistah Christian! I'll live to see you hanged from the highest yardarm in the British Navee."
RtS (probably misquoting!)

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:29 AM

Ahem! That should, of course, have read Lieutenant (sic) ... sorry!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:25 AM

Oh dear, not poor old Lieutenet (sic) Bligh again! See here for the most recent commentary on the most mistunderstood-by-posterity man in the RN!

Steve

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:11 AM

In the song, Aubrey is Captain of the Leopard, I don't know if he is out of service ... I know his primary assignments are the transportation of prisoners to Botany Bay, and a stop over at Bligh's new home to resolve yet another mutinous dispute in which Bligh has found himself. Of course, the Leopard captures a merchant ship or two along the way.

I used the term privateer because of its easy modern conotation, but agree that Aubrey would not like the term. I do believe that Aubrey's opponents would not mind the word, and perhaps a sailor on board of mixed loyalties could stomach the term ... but since I am casting Aubrey and crew in a positive, even heroic light - the expression is troublesome ... even my Irish sailor singing the song, who was likely not highly favorable of the British ruling classes had obvious respect for his English Captain and officers .... the trouble is the word works so well in the telling of the tale!

... still considering options and alternative, and this conversation is most heplful!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:07 AM

Aubrey's in service, commanding the Leopard.

I'm not sure which of the Articles of War you wish to invoke for Jed's punishment. Perhaps you'll have to use 'All other crimes not capital...' the famous 'Captain's Cloak'!

Les

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 09:58 AM

Forgive the ignorance (I gave away all the books some time ago) -- in the story under discussion is the ship the Surprise, and Aubrey still legit? Or the Leopard and Aubrey out of the service temporarily? If the first then privateer or letter of marque or whatever makes no sense, and Jed should rightly be flogged. If the second, then Aubrey might complain, but he might have a romantic bone in his overstuffed body, and anyway he isn't the singer of the song, is he? On the other hand, hands tended to be even more sticklers than their captains about their status. As long as we get to flog Jed, I am happy.

yours, Peter T. (whose nautical information is more along the lines of Stephen's).

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Wotcha
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 09:34 AM

Jed,
I second the recommendations to read Robert Harvey's book about Lord Cochrane. He was quite the character: always short of money, always quarrelling with the Admiralty, and leading some naval action (with very little loss of life on his side which endeared him to his crews).
Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 07:04 AM

Cochrane was in some ways even more incredible than Aubrey. He was an Admiral in the navies of four separate countries (United Kingdom, Greece, Chile and Brazil). I believe that Chile still provides an honour guard on his tomb on their National Day.

The exploits in Master and Commander and the Reverse of the Medal are based on Cochrane's career.

Les

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Greyeyes
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 05:43 PM

"Jack Aubrey would find the term highly insulting - and I may not want to piss him off, even if he is just a ficticious hero!"

Although fictional, many of Aubrey's exploits were based on the real life adventures of Admiral Lord Thomas Cochrane, 10th Earl of Dundonald. Any Aubrey/Maturin fans would find one of the numerous biographies of this extraordinary character fascinating reading. A new one was published last year:- "Cochrane: the Life and Exploits of a Fighting Captain" by Robert Harvey.

A couple of descriptions of this series I particularly like: "Jane Austen for blokes", and "Cocaine for intellectuals". & one of mine, possibly the greatest series of historical novels ever written.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 05:03 PM

LOL Charley - I'm nearly conviced that it must be changed. Accuracy over brevity! I'll see what I can do over the next few days ...

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 04:51 PM

I would emphatically agree with Les on the inappropriateness of the term "privateer" as referred to the HMS Leopard. One could use that term for the Surprise, whether Aubrey objected or not, at various times during her career. But then again, there's only a few thousand or so of us who really care and would take the trouble to track you down and beat you up. ;-)

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:38 PM

Les - that is very helpful info. I have to weigh the expression in light of how it was used/perceived by the men from Aubrey's days against its current use - and perhaps more importantly, how much info it gives with a single word. I am torn. It sounds like I should rewrite the first two verses and develop a new approach to convey the same info. But the fact that Aubrey would have strenuously objected to the term (as he railed against captaining a ship whose main mission was transportation) does not mean that modern listeners might get what I'm talking about, and never notice the insult.

I have to let the idea ferment a bit. Maybe it'll be easier to rework then I think.

Thaks for your insight!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:25 PM

Jed - I don't want to pour cold (sea) water on your sterling efforts, but for someone to call a Royal Navy captain of that (or any other) time a 'privateer' was a very great insult. O'Brian points this out in his books when 'Surprise' ships a crew of privateersmen from the (imaginary) village of Shelmerston, and the shame Aubrey feels when he was out of the Navy. Even he preferred the term 'letter of marque'. Privateer might have been a term that was acceptable to Drake and Hawkins, but to no one after that period in the English/British service. I'm trying to find a modern day equivalent - probably like calling someone who serves in their National Armed Forces a 'mercenary'.

The correct term for a career naval person of this time (other than officers who were Naval officers, or officers in the Navy) was Man-'o'-War's-man. Many songs of the time use 'Captain bold' or 'bold Captain'.

Hoping that this helps rather than hinders, Les

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:14 PM

I just had a thought. With a bit of luck, perhaps I can persuade Max and Bert to allow me to call in and play the song on Mudcat Radio next week. I'll send a note to Max and see how he feels about it.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:12 PM

Thanks Peter - you're a gentleman and a scholar, no matter what Rick Fielding says! ;-)

Roger - I think the accompaniment is primarily frailing banjo, with solos from fiddle and banjo and guitar maybe mando backup, maybe even bass. It is a lively melody.

I know Aubrey and Maturin would have chosen a very different melody with very different accompaniment.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 11:25 AM

Given that many of the greatest British sailor/heros were privateers, Aubrey would scarcely have minded.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 11:13 AM

Should the accompaniment be flute and cello?
RtS

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 11:04 AM

MMario - you are just a fountain of useful info!!! Thanks for the web research! And Les, I'll change the spelling of Moor - I wondered that, but wasn't bothered since I don't normally write the songs but sing them.

I've been considering the privateer term.My first inclination was to change it - but; it has been integral to the first part of the song; conveying the idea to non-historical types who would undertsnd the term immediately and would require no further explanation. Additionally there is precedent in recent folk-style music for its use so I benefit from connonation as well.

Is it not true that outsiders would have considered Aubrey and companty to be privateers? Say the American's whose British sailors were pressed, or the Ducth of French ships whose trade was disrupted by Aubrey's 'appropriation' of their goods? And what would an Irish seaman of perhaps mixed loyalties think of the term?

I would like some more feedback from you history buffs and/or O'Brian experts. I am sure, though - that Jack Aubrey would find the term highly insulting - and I may not want to piss him off, even if he is just a ficticious hero!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 02:29 PM

and regarding "cockney" This is from THE HISTORY OF COCKNEY RHYMING SLANG at http://fun-with-words.com/crs_history.html

"The Cockneys were - and are - working class Londoners. The word comes from cockeneyes (14th century) which means eggs that are misshapen, as if laid by a cock. The word went through a series of usages over the centuries, and it came to be used to refer to city folk, ignorant of 'real life'.
Nowadays the definition of Cockney is often one which originated during the 17th century. It refers to anyone born within the sound of Bow-bells. These are the bells of St. Mary-le-Bow Church in the City of London. "

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:32 PM

Only that I would spell it without an 'e'. But as an adjective moorish would be more usual. This would more usually describe North Africans, but they weren't so knowledgable in those days.

The only really descriptive term I can think of, still in use today, is 'Lascar', a seaman from East India.

Les

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:26 PM

It doesn't take much poetic license to allow "moor" for Portuguese or Spanish

And as far as the lines about the cannons and the balls - we all know that it's not the size that matters.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 01:20 PM

I had some lyrics in an earlier version about the 50-gun vessel, and considered working in some language about the size of the cannonballs (the Waakzaamheid not only outgunned the Leopard, but had much bigger cannon, as well) - but I found my first versions were written only for those who knew the story, and did not work on the level that most listeners could appreciate. So I simplified language, and took a more elemental approach.

I am curious, though since so many knowledgeable Mudcatters have contributed to the thread; I simply put one line in describing the crew; "with cockney, moore and irish lads we made a handsome crew" - I was out on a limb here - trying to show the mix of backgrounds. The Leopard, at the time of the Waakzaamheid incident had some "black portugese" hands - through poetic license and for simplication I said moores - also the term cockney may never have been used in those early times. No one picked me up on thse terms - but are there any comments?

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 11:54 AM

Thanks, Les. Happy to be corrected on "the horrible old Leopard" as she was, indeed, a two-decked 50-gun vessel during the Desolation Island episode. Much later in the series she appears again as a stripped down transport. Maybe, we could work up a naval ballad the equivalent to "The Cat Came Back" given the persistent of this ship.

DRIFT ALERT! I once ran a thread on the Patrick O'Brian site trying to find out what people knew about the re-curring expression in the series of "kicking up Bobs-a-dying"; most folks agreed that it meant the sailors were ashore raising hell again, and that there may be a dance tune called "Bob's A-Dying" although nobody's been able to dig it up (so to speak). I do use that expression in the chorus of a song I use to introduce members of our sea songs group Roll&Go, if anyone is interested.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Mudlark
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 10:59 AM

Dear Jed...

Thanks so much for starting this thread, and to all mudcatters who have added to it. My husband turned me on to this series...I resisted for a long time, thinking them "guy" books...but have now read every one in the series, and many 2 and 3 times. The characters are wonderfully drawn and the action, when it comes--on land or at sea--is always sprightly.

I loved your ballad, and it reminded me of the great scenes in the books where poetry was spouted over the remains of spotted dick and old port....

Nancy

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:47 AM

oh - I haven't decided the name yet. I like the Ballad of Desolation Island or just Desolation Island - because the are simple and they link the song directly to the book. But I'd love to hear suggestions for a name!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:37 AM

WOW - I love this place! I checked into Mudcat this morning nearly forgetting this thread - and was floored by all the wonderfull info!! Thanks all.

Yes, I believe the O'Brian series of books about Aubrey and Maturin are marvelous, and can see how they would be addicting. My Dad read them all and sent me a couple, and I have loved them as well. And when I first came across this story about the sinking of the Waakzaamheid - I knew I had to write the song. It's been fermenting in my head for quite some time.

Privateer is a major change to the lyric, but I know I must make the change. I am so glad I posted the lyrics now. I would not want to have recorded the song with such a mistake. I am not sure even where I came up with the word, except it was probably my own interpretation ... so thanks very much, y'all for catching that and speaking up.

I amazed at the detail so many have remembered! Thanks all for the comments. Please continue posting or PM if you have any further comments. I have an excellent melody for the song, I believe - I hope to get it on a recording soon, though unpublished until the next record. Still I will provide a tape copy to any who have an interest, once I have a chance to get the demo recorded (within the month).

Thanks again - y'all!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:17 AM

So THAT'S where he got the name "Liam Devlin"!

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:06 AM

Well, trice my pudden to the weather cat-harpings! Dr. Maturin inherited squillions of pesetas from his rich old uncle and bought the Surprise from the Navy. Capt. Aubrey, being on the beach through the wicked connivance of his land-bound enemies, then obtained a letter of marque to harry the King's sea-going enemies. If you haven't read this far, I'm sorry if I gave the game away. Leopard turns up later, as a rather down-at-heel transport ferrying troops back from the continent. Maturin is feted by the crew when they find he's an old Leopard, and has to recount the famous sea-battle (I forget which one!) which he didn't actually see, as he was below, tending the wounded. You really do need to read the books, you know!

Anyway, what is the tune?

Steve "Awkward" Parkes

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:16 AM

Well my reply was just from memory. How sad is that?

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Gervase
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:11 AM

Oops! That's one of the problems with the O'Brian books - they're so addictive that you can't help but become a "pusher", lending them to all and sundry.
As a result, most of mine are are on friends' bookshelves so I wasn't able to do a check.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:09 AM

Not that one, Gervase. You're thinking of Polychest, the 'Carpenter's Mistake', a post ship that Aubrey had commanded earlier.

The real HMS Leopard had a mixed career. She fired into an unprepared American frigate to compell her captain to hand back some seamen who had deserted. This was in about 1808, and was one of the causes of the American War of 1812.

Aubrey's mixed fealings were that he was not in a frigate (with better opportunities of prize money) or in a line-of-battle ship (which carried more kudos).

Les

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: sledge
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:04 AM

Gervase, that wasn't the Leopard but some other beast.

Sledge

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Gervase
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:14 AM

As I recall, the Leopard was a hidous naval freak - a ship with what appeared to be a bow at both ends, originally designed as a floating bombardment vessel but never used in that role. Certainly Aubrey had mixed feelings about her - but she was a regular RN vessel and he didn't sail her under a Letter of Marque.
But that's nit-picking for you. I like the song Jed - what's the tune?

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:04 AM

Charley - actually the 'horrible old Leopard' was a 50gun ship, a small two decker, not a frigate. These ships were used on detached duty, or on convoy escort, or sometimes as a flagship on a detached station where there were only small frigates or unrated vessels used.

Originally this class of vessel was part of the line-of-battle, but for many years they had been too small. The last of them built for the Royal Navy were built during the American Revolution (as we like to call it!) as they could work closer inshore than a 74 and it was unlikely that they would have anything bigger to fight. Which was true until the rest of Europe joined in!

I agree with you entirely about the Aubrey/Maturin books. They are the finest of their kind. Little Hawk, I like the conversations because of the flavour of the language used, which seems to fit the period better than any other books on the same subject. O'Brian's command of the subject was alao without equal.

I'm sorry to go on about all this, but the Napoleonic Royal Navy is my special interest, as by groaning bookshelves will bear witness.**BG**

Les

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 05:30 PM

He certainly had to sail as a private ship at one point in the series, because he got into some mess, but it was some time ago when I read them, so I forget which one.
One of the best things about the series is how much music there is in it. The fact that officers set up string quartets and so on as onboard hobbies never occurred to me until I read the series, and I was told that it was absolutely true during the period.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: MMario
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 03:09 PM

*grin* As I said, I don't know the book. But a regular ship of the line certainly wouldn't be a "privateer", agreed.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Lynn W
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:46 PM

I always assumed Waakzaamheid meant "wakefulness" or "watchfulness" (like English "Vigilant") but I don't know if this is correct. I've read all these books several times and never get tired of them. I particularly like the unexpectedness- he never signals what's going to happen beforehand so when a ship sinks you get a complete sense of shock.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:08 PM

Trying to resist a broadside...The HMS Leopard was a regular naval heavy frigate, not a "letter of marque" or a "privateer" or a "pirate ship." It's true that later in the series Capt. Aubrey does take command of the former frigate HMS Surprise as a "letter of marque" but that's not the
The Aubrey/Maturin series is one of the best nautical series written for getting the flavor of the Nepolianic War period. Yes, there's lots of talking and digressions, and some of the most dramatic action curiously takes place off stage. Addicts like myself read and reread the books, and look forward to no other life.

Subject: RE: Help: Patrick O Briens Desolation Island
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:54 PM

Of all the place to sink, I should think Antarctic waters would be among the worst. I've read a couple of the Aubrey-Maturin stories, and they're very good, if a bit long-winded at times on the conversational end.

- LH